Newbie 960 - Game Over

[ToG]

@IKID
Omg I love that link... thx

@nolynch of Andrew94
His primary motive behind his first lie was to not get lynched as long as possible. This only makes sense for Town Pr to do.

also, if you're gonna continueing to attack me ren, i might as well tell the truth later

Hint of power role that it could damage the town if he reveals it.

p.s. think on the good sides of my ireegularities before jumping out like a lion pouncing on a deer

Same here.

As his play matches with his claim I believe do believe him.

[imkingdavid]

@IKID
Omg I love that link... thx

You're welcome.

@nolynch of Andrew94
His primary motive behind his first lie was to not get lynched as long as possible. This only makes sense for Town Pr to do.

Or for a scum to do. And he could ensure that he doesn't get lynched when the pressure is on by doc claiming.

also, if you're gonna continueing to attack me ren, i might as well tell the truth later

Hint of power role that it could damage the town if he reveals it.

p.s. think on the good sides of my ireegularities before jumping out like a lion pouncing on a deer

Same here.

As his play matches with his claim I believe do believe him.

The first one does sound like that, yes, but the second is more of a stretch, imo. But thanks for pointing that out.

[Equinox]

Mod: Approximately what time should we expect the deadline?

Save the discussion about claims until Day 2, please!

The mafia are already jumping with glee for the situation right now; they don't need extra lessons on how to kill us all.

Given that we've had both power roles claim, I need to hear that explanation from Skill006 regarding the reverse lynch list ASAP.

What do the two of you think of an Equinox lynch?

If it will settle doubts you guys may have about me on Day 2, so be it. You need to start the day with as few doubts as possible, as it's a critical decision point that can turn the tables for either side. I do not want to be a hindrance to that decision-making process if I can help it. One wrong step on Day 2, and it's a loss for town.

Then there was the whole, "I'm gonna re-read the game and build a case only to unvote right away as soon as the case is rebutted."

All I can say is, "Read Newbie 924." It's a strong meta against that particular technique of which I accused NDP. Everything else I had on NDP were weak scum tells; my main case on him was his defense of andrew94 and Equinox, two of the scummiest/VIest players in this game. I did not realize both wolframnhart and I Am Innocent were witness to that kind of scum play before, and when NDP pointed it out, that meta became an anti-scum tell. If NDP were scum, I believe he would not purposefully try TaylorSwift's "tactic" again.*

* = OTOH, what TaylorSwift did in Newbie 924 may have been unintentional. Therefore, I still need to keep an eye on him.

I do not have any actual scum reads right now. Sorry. Just a couple of IGMEOYs -- Skill006, NomDePlume, and ToG, in that order -- and a whole bunch of town and null reads. I think the reasons behind most of those reads are in the walls somewhere. If not, feel free to ask.

Since we're on the subject of lynching, my preferred lynch order would be imkingdavid, Equinox, and NomDePlume. The first one would mean less risk of unintentionally No Lynching because we didn't get the required five votes. The second one is for reasons stated above (not to mention you will get information from my lynch -- either my twilight musings or examination of accusations against me -- and it's useful stuff). The third one is to settle doubts in my mind about NDP. I called his meta an anti-scum tell, not a town tell, for the asterisked part above.

I will not support Skill006 or ToG lynches today. Yeah, my IGMEOY and lynch lists are not synchronized... got my own reasons for that.

And I definitely agree that fencesitting for the majority of the day is a pretty big deal. However, I'm not sure if it's something I would feel comfortable lynching her over.

Do you think my flavor of fence-sitting is what scum would do in this game? That should help answer Sotty7's and your indecision about whether or not to lynch me.

Any more speculation from me on that point would be WIFOM and

not

helpful, so I'll leave it at that and at meta.

At the moment no-one leaps out at me.

We're on Day 1. Scum isn't going to be glaringly obvious at this stage. Do you have any null reads that you'd like to examine more, at least? Seems odd you're keeping mum about this.

[imkingdavid]

Ehh... Memnon posted in two of his other games but not in this one. Is he trying to avoid something?

@Equi, re: fence-sitting. To be honest, any time someone fence-sits, I feel that it is a scummy thing to do. Yes, newbie town players will often be unsure of themselves and will be scared to jump into the fray and put out their opinion since they're afraid of what people will say. However, you've played in quite enough games that I am sure that you shouldn't be scared of others' opinions.

I think that at this point, we need to decide on a lynch. Either lynch me or we need to find someone else to lynch. The only other person whose lynch could be possible right now is Equinox. And for that reason (as well as the scum tell pointed out by Sotty) I will VOTE: Equinox.

Oh, and Memnon... post!

[Equinox]

However, you've played in quite enough games that I am sure that you shouldn't be scared of others' opinions.

Most of those games are replacements. I've noticed that I tend to be more energetic in replacement games... but I'll save that for my wiki.

The only time I was actually afraid of people's opinions was when I backed off ToG. Sotty7 has a point when she says I got town points for not pulling an OMGUS attack; I was purposefully keeping off ToG because it would have been really difficult to say anything against him with his tunneling, and it was also really difficult to get any reads on him while he was attacking me. (To sum up, since I've got nothing to lose here: I have no problem with ToG now... but I have a problem with mb53. I cannot hold ToG responsible for mb53's actions, but I can't completely ignore mb53 either, hence the IGMEOY.)

The other times were me not getting any reads either way... the true source of my fence-sitting. Going back to my very first sentence, I've grown used to seeing a trail already laid out; a trail being built as we go, I'm not so good with (and trying to rectify). In hindsight, I probably should have actively done something to fix that. That was a bad fail on my part.

As for going with the flow... yeah, guilty. Well, it was more like someone pointed something out, I finally went to look, and then noticed it myself. Very poor play on my part. Also very

lazy

play on my part. I could have easily looked back and forth for something wrong, and I didn't; I just did the post-by-post thing. My only point of active participation would be the three walls. Sad, eh?

Lots of lessons learned here. I'll just eat this failure and then post as much stuff as I can get in before I'm dead.

[Equinox]

If anyone is looking to do isolation reads: The old forum is still up.

[Sotty7]

All I can say is, "Read Newbie 924." It's a strong meta against that particular technique of which I accused NDP. Everything else I had on NDP were weak scum tells; my main case on him was his defense of andrew94 and Equinox, two of the scummiest/VIest players in this game. I did not realize both wolframnhart and I Am Innocent were witness to that kind of scum play before, and when NDP pointed it out, that meta became an anti-scum tell. If NDP were scum, I believe he would not purposefully try TaylorSwift's "tactic" again.*

The thing about “scum defend scummy townies” is A) We have had ZERO flips right now. So unless you know Andrew is town, this is all hyperbole. And B) townies will

also

defend scummy players they perceive as town. I've done that plenty of times myself on both sides of the coin, I really don't know how you can call that a scum tell. Let alone a scum tell on day one.

Do you think my flavor of fence-sitting is what scum would do in this game? That should help answer Sotty7's and your indecision about whether or not to lynch me.

WIFOM. And no, it doesn't help.

@Equi, re: fence-sitting. To be honest, any time someone fence-sits, I feel that it is a scummy thing to do. Yes, newbie town players will often be unsure of themselves and will be scared to jump into the fray and put out their opinion since they're afraid of what people will say. However, you've played in quite enough games that I am sure that you shouldn't be scared of others' opinions.

Pretty much this. The fact you aren't a raw newb makes your fence sitting scummier to me. You're still kinda doing it now. I know you won't lynch Skill or ToG, but as for other people...

As for going with the flow... yeah, guilty. Well, it was more like someone pointed something out, I finally went to look, and then noticed it myself. Very poor play on my part. Also very

lazy

play on my part. I could have easily looked back and forth for something wrong, and I didn't; I just did the post-by-post thing. My only point of active participation would be the three walls. Sad, eh?

Very. It's also pretty scummy that you have now admitted to doing much of nothing today. I am sorely tempted to put my vote back on you. I skimmed one of your recently completed newbie games were you replaced in (945) and you seemed much more willing to take stances. In this game I feel you talk yourself in circles never actually going anywhere. Basically you haven't been very proactive. The only really townie thing I thought you did was your epic re-read. But you stamped that flame out when you abandoned your conclusions super easily.

Really, after all that effort you are trying to tell me that all you came up with was a weak vote on Nom and very little else? I am finding that extremely hard to believe.

I'd also like a more exact time for the deadline tomorrow if possible. I should be around most of the day and I will say now, that unless a hammer is desperately needed, my vote will either end up on IKD or Equinox.

[ToG]

@Equinox not discussing any Lynching of Power Roles
As Player are still weighting the odds (You included as you did not put them on your no lynch list) I think we need to discuss this right here.
Lynching any claimed power role at the today is not discussable.

@Equinox finding Mb53 scummy.
I was unable to find anything scummy about Mb53.
You did mention this already a few times and I would be really glad if you could point the different posts out.

The next players after the Powerroles I would be able to lynch would be either Skill006 or Equinox.

VOTE: Vote Equinox

[Sotty7]

Why Skill Tog?

[andrew94]

Firstly I would like to know how to do iso reads

Claim: Not Cop

I'm a bit confused at the moment because I'm back to square two. I'll need to take a look at my notes again for Day 2; it's too late to do so for today, since it's going to take a lot more than "this seems a bit scummy" to move off the current wagons.

I've said before that I would be uncomfortable with lynching andrew94. I am also currently uncomfortable with lynching imkingdavid. If I am forced to choose between these two, however, I will vote to lynch andrew94 as a policy lynch.

Vote: andrew94

Yay for following imkingdavid... for now.

As for actual stances: I suggest questioning Skill006 tomorrow for reasons I've stated in my second wall of text. I am also going to keep an eye on ToG (mainly for things mb53 did that I found pretty odd) and NomDePlume (just in case, even though he's cleared for now based on meta).

i believe someone stated be4 that they didnt like policy lynches but now u decided to use the words 'policy lynch'


also, I had 3 votes on me, now looking back I strongly suspect one of them is wolf as the wolves could have just hammered me.

[Equinox]

Firstly I would like to know how to do iso reads

Toward the bottom, there's a thing that says "Display posts by user:" and a dropdown menu. Pick a name there and click "Go."

As Player are still weighting the odds (You included as you did not put them on your no lynch list) I think we need to discuss this right here.

I absolutely oppose discussing PRs today. Scum know too much from the present discussion as it is. Save the claim believability speculation until Day 2.

Longer post coming. In the middle of researching and writing that right now.

@Equinox finding Mb53 scummy.
I was unable to find anything scummy about Mb53.
You did mention this already a few times and I would be really glad if you could point the different posts out.

Of course you wouldn't, since you know mb53's role. I will gladly link the specific posts as soon as I'm through with this longer wall, though.

also, I had 3 votes on me, now looking back I strongly suspect one of them is wolf as the wolves could have just hammered me.

I'm actually writing about the votes on you right now. Do you see any votes that are particularly suspicious?

[Equinox]

EBWOP:

Longer post coming. In the middle of researching and writing that right now.

I don't know what I meant by "that," but I'm definitely not doing research on the PR claims ATM. >_>; Yeah. I think I shifted stuff around in my post and then forgot to move this sentence...

[Equinox]

Okay. I should probably reexamine my reread in light of new stuff. That, and I need to do something more than, "Lynch me now because I don't want to wait until Day 2 to get lynched because there are better choices for Day 2." And I need to stop being lazy in 960. >_>

Here goes...

1. Apparently, I'm getting contradicting reads on replaced slots. Namely, town on imkingdavid and null on Ren, town on ToG and null-scummy on mb53, and town on I Am Innocent and null on Kenman. Interesting... and total blah.

2. I tunneled NDP after the first wall, which is why my sudden dropping of NDP appeared so dramatic. Most of my case was the defense issue, but I see I've also accused him of piggy backing. I need to really look at NDP's defense and look at the posts where he claims he didn't follow the crowd. This is coming after my examination of andrew94's wagon.

===

The andrew94 wagon!

Vote #0: Titiboo votes andrew94 in RVS. Bonus points for being first.
Vote #1: Ren votes andrew94 for lying. Eh.
Vote #2: mb53 votes andrew94 for not clarifying his accusation that Ren is lying. Eh.
Unvote #1: Ren unvotes andrew94 because... I'm not sure why. Ren appears to think andrew94's actions are a null tell.
Vote #3: Memnon goes for the policy lynch. Debated to death.
Unvote #2: mb53 still finds andrew94 scummy and does the IGMEOY move, and then mb53 piggy backs on NDP's case against Titiboo. Yeeeeahhh. Bad mb53.
Unvote #3: Memnon unvotes on my suggestion. Yeah.
Vote #4: My fail. Oh, man. That does look scummy on my spreadsheet. Moving on.
Unvote #4: Skill006 unvotes in Titiboo's place. Nothing here.

Long break.

Vote #5: imkingdavid votes andrew94 because andrew94 was his other suspect besides Memnon. Meh.
Vote #6: My deadline lynch.
Vote #7: Uh... what? (Oh, it's a deadline lynch as well.)
Massive Unvoting: andrew94 claims.

Verdict:

It's unlikely that both scum were on this wagon; if we had scum on this wagon, we'd have at most one. Most of the voters were acting out of townish intentions, and the votes that had me scratching my head were contextually null tells. Therefore, if I am to find scum, andrew94's wagon is not the place to begin looking.

===

I think I'll need a bit more time to look again at NDP, so I'll end this post here and get to that now. Be back in a bit...

[Equinox]

I swore to myself to not write walls again, but here I am, writing more. I will try to keep this short.

First, I am going to address NomDePlume's response to my case against him.

This was in newbie #924. I read Donny as town in that game (I was town) and Andrew immediately struck me as very similar in this one. The scum in that game, TaylorSwift, did precisely this: "scum defend scummy townies to earn town credential". Wolf (and IAI) was in that game and he was in this one at this point so blatantly performing this "trick" were I scum would have been stupid.

TaylorSwift was accused toward the end of Newbie 924 of being "too accurate." Scum do defend scummy townies to earn town credential, and it worked with TaylorSwift for most of the game until a townie pointed out that his reads were a bit

too

correct. The main reason I dismissed my case against NDP was the player list in that game. I'd read that game before out of curiosity, but I'd never paid much attention to the players who were in it; when I read through NDP's defenses of andrew94 and Equinox, it somehow made me remember this particular game, but I didn't remember which game it was until NDP conveniently pointed it out.

It is as NDP says: It would be quite foolhardy to attempt this in a game where Newbie 924 players would spot it. In the winding WIFOMy mess of my mind, however, I think TaylorSwift's accuracy was unintentional, and if NDP is scum, he might be doing it unintentionally as well. Nevertheless, this meta is an anti-scum tell, so I'm off NDP at the moment.

What more do you think I should be doing to get them to move on? I wasn't waiting for the town to walk themselves to another target I was pointing one out and questioning another.

I will concede that you were probably the first to point out that andrew94's inconsistency was not that scummy, but the reason I made that point against you was this post where you sort of just nodded and then... nothing. It seemed to me as though you didn't want to lead the town off andrew94 at that point; you did attempt, in that post where you questioned us about our thoughts regarding the inconsistency, but you didn't try again. Just didn't seem proactive to me. (Haha, there's me being a hypocrite again!)

Please show me where I have followed someone else.

In this post where you vote Ren, you followed ToG. Reading you in isolation, though, I see you already had a case against Ren by this point, so you didn't actually follow ToG; you merely used his case to add to your own.

VERDICT

: Reading NDP in isolation and in relation to his rebuttal makes it clearer that I had a weaker case on him than I thought. NDP drops down from IGMEOY to null. (Null because you don't seem to be as active as the others... might be RL related as you say, but I can't ignore Sotty7's assertion that you only post when something addresses you.)

Second, I am going to answer ToG's request for a case against mb53.

In this post, mb53 is annoyed that I ruined his RVS pressure vote, but he never actually

questions

me about it. As I've said before, I find what I did pretty scummy in hindsight; I might have stopped the mini-wagon on NDP because I didn't want my newbie scum buddy to fall for it. It's possible that this possibility never actually occurred to anyone, but it's funny that mb53 didn't pressure me further about that when he was quite willing to pressure NDP over a harmless question.

This vote-hopping to Titiboo is a tad weird. IIRC, Titiboo was flaking at that point; no amount of pressure voting would have changed that. Not to mention mb53 is riding on NDP's case.

Grand total of two things. Impressive. v_v

VERDICT

: mb53 warrants an IGMEOY on his slot. However, ToG appears to be doing really well.

All right, since the isolation reading feature is back, time to do some of that tonight. It probably won't change the situation against me any, but I'm hoping this will provide some useful information for you guys tomorrow.

[imkingdavid]

Well... today is deadline. Unfortunately we don't have a certain time today when deadline will hit officially (unless I missed that post), so we need to come to a decision soon just in case deadline is whenever inHim decides to close the thread.

And just to be slightly helpful, here's the current unofficial vote count (double checking to make sure there are no errors)

Spoiler: Unofficial Vote Count

imkingdavid (3) - andrew, Memnon, Sotty7 (L-2)
Equinox (2) - imkingdavid, ToG (L-3)
andrew (1) - IAI (L-4)

No vote (3) - Skill006, NomDePlume, Equinox

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch. No Lynch will occur if no majority is reached by deadline. Deadline is Friday, June 18, 2010... sometime.

[I Am Innocent]

I agree with Equinox that speculation of roles at this point is not as helpful to us as it is to scum. If one thinks we should still lynch one of the claimed power roles, then that is an entirely different discussion and that is okay to discuss D1.

I personally do not think we consider lynching either of them D1.

I also agree with Equinox that a Doctor CC should

not

be made at this point. If Andrew is lying, the real doctor should lay low and continue his/her plan to protect the cop.

[I Am Innocent]

But what I'm saying is that we now have an extra week beyond the original deadline, so people should not stick with their current votes

unless

their suspicions don't change after further scum hunting.
.
.
.
Otherwise, I have no need to needlessly throw my vote around for laughs.
.
.
.
Once again I disagree. If you want to keep your vote active and move it around on a whim, you're welcome to.
.
.
.
Currently, no one is more scummy than the next person, but I will do a reread after supper comes, and then I'll decide on whether or not I have enough suspicion of someone to place my vote somewhere.

This belittling of what I am a few others are doing with our votes is noted. So is your anti-town push to not encourage people to vote/leave valid voting histories.

I have not played in a game where we have been up against so many deadlines. This is only good for the scum as we continue to scramble last minute.

Those that have not claimed that seem most suspicious to me:

1) imkingdavid, minimizing what sotty and I were doing with our votes, encouraging people to not vote until they feel comfortable, and now look where we are. Also did not like the AtE that I was seeing after Andrew's claim. I could see myself doing exactly that if I were scum.

2) equinox, fencesitting even until now. At times I do get a town vibe from you, but at the same time you don't do any investigations unless you are receiving heat. Very scummy.

3) Skill, I do not remember you being this passive in the game we played together. Two scum out there and you can't find anyone other than Memnon to consider voting for? It is noted how with two wagons going and a deadline approaching, both you and ToG did not 1) join one of the wagons, 2) suggest a new one.

I think I am leaning towards imkingdavid or equinox.

Those quoted posts above are the official reason for my vote.

unvote: Andrew, vote: imkingdavid

[I Am Innocent]

Spoiler: Unofficial Vote Count

imkingdavid (4) - andrew, Memnon, Sotty7, IAI (L-1)
Equinox (2) - imkingdavid, ToG (L-3)

No vote (3) - Skill006, NomDePlume, Equinox

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch. No Lynch will occur if no majority is reached by deadline. Deadline is Friday, June 18, 2010... sometime.

Agree with the unofficial count and updated it with my vote change.

imkingdavid is at L-1, that should be officially noted

.

[Sotty7]

IKD is at lynch-1 now. I really want to flip my vote to Equinox after her posting more of nothing. Suspecting and talking about a player who is no longer in the game is just mind blowing at this point in the day.

However, I don't think I can afford moving someone off lynch-1 when we have no idea if the mod will come back and just declare day over. Those who are not voting need to come out and make a stance already

[NomDePlume]

Ok, I'm here and we need to get a lynch sorted pronto. Out of IKD and Equinox I prefer IKD as the lynch.
Equinox has been incredibly indecisive and uncommital in her suspicions but it has been a hard first day and some of her stuff I thought was town talk. I suspected Ren strongly and nothing IKD has said has me reading him as town - apart from that "lynch me now" post which could just be as he and IAI say, a cool scum.

VOTE: ImKingDavid

[Equinox]

I woke up expecting to be dead, but... uh... .___.

I really want to flip my vote to Equinox after her posting more of nothing. Suspecting and talking about a player who is no longer in the game is just mind blowing at this point in the day.

I brought up mb53 in that wall last night only because ToG requested it. He felt mb53 did nothing scummy, but I did, so I outlined it for him. I can't hold ToG responsible for mb53, so I can only watch him at best... not to mention I actually like ToG, so I wouldn't do anything close to lynching him today anyway.

As for me not posting anything substantial -- I did have things to say. I just couldn't say them at that (or even this) point in the game, given our situation. Sorry about that. I'll say them, eventually.

[Sotty7]

Well I am happy we got a lynch. IKD and Equinox were my top two so I'm in no position to complain.

Skill should still try and post something before the thread is locked though.

[imkingdavid]

I interpret the following rule to mean that I can continue to post until my death scene is posted. If I'm wrong about that, my apologies.

Once your death scene has been posted, you’re dead. No posting about this game until after the game is over.

Well, at least we got a lynch in before deadline. We had some good discussion going, but it had to be cut to prevent a No Lynch. Keep what has been said in mind and during the Night go back through the thread to do some ISO (now that it's back) and scumhunting given the information you get from my flip whenever that occurs.

[Skill006]

I'm sorry guys, I can't believe I completely forgot about this game >.> For a couple of the more important days too. Guess its been summer vacation, and I'm not at my computer frequently (actually, pretty much never).

ToG beat me to it. I had a really strong feeling andrew was a power role, which is why I didn't want to lynch him today (just in case he was one, he could remain hidden and actually use his power). Of course, that doesn't mean I really do think he's a power role, I just thought it would have been safer if he didn't have to claim, and then we worry about his scumminess tomorrow.

Actually, I'm relatively ok with the king d lynch. I don't think he's scum, but I think his lynch will provide a lot of information (a lot more than a policy lynch of andrew, anyway ).

1) imkingdavid, minimizing what sotty and I were doing with our votes, encouraging people to not vote until they feel comfortable, and now look where we are. Also did not like the AtE that I was seeing after Andrew's claim. I could see myself doing exactly that if I were scum.

Don't really like your reasons for voting king d here. I kind of see what you mean with that first part with him belittling that type of voting pattern, but I see it more as indicative of playstyle and what he prefers votes be used for than a scum tell. I rarely see scum belittle something that hinders there intentions like that. Same with the second part, for that matter.

[andrew94]

i actually said look at the ppl on the wagon, wolves would have jumped on the chance to own me, but they did not , this suggests that either 1, or 2 of them were already on my wagon or they dont wanna be linked to it