Vesuvan wrote:Puzzle wrote:I wanted to see reactions before answering and I'm quite happy with the first ones.
Now, answers :
1. The question about who cannot build units : it is made clear in post #3 that all townies can build units. Had anyone come out saying the contrary, he would have been scum paying little attention.
How could this question harm the town ?
Not all townies are necessarily equal. Had there been any inequality in townies, the mafia would want to know that. Townies, however, do not need to know that.
Post #3 says you're wrong that some townies may not be able to build units.
2. Main game / extension mass claim :
What is the importance of giving this info to the mafia ? What would they do with it ? If we are all from the main game, they are stuffed, so they have to claim extensions anyway. Having people claim main game would help clearing them partially at least, for
0 cost as the Mafia's play is not influenced / improved by revealing this
.
This leads to giving the mafia more information about the setup before they are called upon to claim. Regardless of the setup, this is a Bad Thing
(TM)
as it gives the mafia an idea of what will or will not work. In addition, if we are dealing with a setup where townies are not created equal, giving that info to the mafia is also a Bad Thing
(TM)
.
Most importantly, there is NO SITUATION where giving this info to the town is a good thing unless we assume the game was designed to be quickly broken by a day 1 mass-claim. Having designed a few games myself, a game that lasts for ~100 posts is not considered a "good design principle". I tend to give a mod more credit than that.
By the way, the fact you would use this defense just reinforces my reason to vote for you.
Why would I want to give ideas to the Mafia during the day if I'm with them, when there's been a night shortly before ? And you don't answer the point that the info it gives them is useless to them.
Then, you bash my attempt to take advantage of the setup on
speculation
that the setup cannot be taken advantage of.
Why is my defense reinforcing your vote exactly ?
3. "He even fishes for existence of unbalanced civilizations in post 53 by suggesting that there couldn't be any "cop/doctor" : look at post #53, please. I say "There is also no chance to out a cop or a doc like in standard games. ". I'm not fishing, I'm stating the obvious : our cop or doc aptitudes are defined by our choices, not by the setup.
There is no particular role to be afraid to expose. Misrepresentation ?
Do you KNOW for certain that there are no unbalanced civilizations? Ones that may be have better horsemen for instance, or better spearmen?
No you don't know that. Why? Becuase we ALL KNOW THAT IS THE CASE. How? What's "unique units", precious?
Misrepresentation? No; logical interpretation.
All of us have access to cops. As for Unique Units, how do you guess who has access to a "supercop" from just main game / extension claim ?
Going through the maths also showed that even if we all had access to a "super-cop" right away, the loss of tempo (time spent evolving instead of investigating at night) involved doesn't make it particularly interesting.
Why did you choose not to mention / counter the maths involved there ?
4. "Puzzle seems to be insistent on directing the town in a certain direction of play" : yes, guilty.
What direction ?
I insisted on the all-cop direction, the no-No-Lynch and the circular inspection. Obviously in scum interests.
The anti-No-Lynch bit is pro-town, I'll give you that. The circular inspection direction is actually quite well in scum interests. Thanks for slipping up there. All-cops direction may well play into the mafia's hands, but we don't know that for certain one way or the other, but it could well depend on the strategy the mafia worked out last night.
When someone is vigorously trying to direct the town's night actions, it's scummy. Period.
When it's in a way that plays right into a path of mafia strategy
, I want to lynch you.
How do you know that exactly ? You are quite affirmative, there.
And on a secondary layer, how can it play into the Mafia's hands exactly ?
5. Suggesting setting up a defined order (originally proposed by VisMaior in post 74) was leaped on quite quickly by Puzzle, and he carries it throughout. However, after being so strongly in support of this, he points out how easily this strategy can fail in post 88, yet still supports the idea completely!
And what is the alternative?
To let each person choose their own night actions so the mafia can't make their plans with known information (i.e. the town's strategy).
I know you're a Magic player, so we are both well aware of how metagaming works, and that a metagamed strategy is only effective when you know your opponent's strategy. Don't play dumb with me.
I would never.
So, you advocate risking to pile investigations onto the same persons and miss potential scums ? This would probably have let off the hook some categories of players (lurkers for example) for talkative players, who cops always tend to investigate (wrongly imo but that is another debate).
Still, I am quite ready to open to this option (all-cops investigating the person of their choice) if you can show me that :
- the risk involved by the Mafia knowing the target for each of us is significant : what are the consequences ?
- it outbalances the possibility a free-targetting gives them to claim to have investigated only townies / dead people.
Why do you omit to mention the other options and the reasons why I reject them ?
Thanks for teh slip-up.
You never stated a reason to reject the option of letting players make their own decisions. You just said that you preferred the pre-planned strategy, despite pointing out how the mafia can abuse it.
You are mentioning #88, saying you analyzed it. How about asking everyone to read it ? Do I need to quote it ? Is this what people call a
lie
?
And that's the most telling point: you point out how the mafia can abuse the strategy. Why would a townie do that, except to argue against using the strategy? It's suicide.
The answer is that there is no logical reason for a
townie
to do that.
. Any why would a mafia say it ?
The strategy has weaknesses but it remains the best available, in my humble opinion.
What alternative do you suggest and why ?
Opinion already laughed at and the alternative was one you were ready to go with in post 88...
...Until you just slipped up now, of course.
(replies to the rest of that gibberish to come soon)
I can smell an epeeguy-wannabee in the neighbourhood... Why is it that I always get dragged into this kind of stuff ? Do I look that much like I like it ?
Vesuvan wrote:6. "Puzzle should know there are options beyond building units, yet he presents that as though it's a non-option. He should also realise that if the scum don't get any units, the town is grossly over-powered. " : what options ?
Advancing ones civilization to the next era, so as to get better units. This had been suggested and the benefits highlighted (post 11) before you ignored the option.
... based on maths you conveniently forgot to mention.
Why shouldn't I doubt it with the all-vig option open for scums ?
This is a little unclear, so I take it you're asking why you shouldn't doubt that the scum should be able to build units? Because otherwise the scum are vastly out-powered by the town.
The confusing thing on this point is how often your opinion has changed on whether the scum will be able to build units or not.
And how many times exactly ? Just give post numbers where I switch my mind about it. I'm sure you want to be accurate and not appear to be foggy in any manner.
"He also takes the angle of armlx opposing the idea of a lynch rather than opposing the idea of an "investigation circle"" :
Lie
, I've kept on saying the opposite.
Perhaps you mis-understand what I say here (I'm going to be nice here and all and allow the possibility that you're not just lying).
When you responded to Armlx, you mis-represented him by indicating that he opposed the idea of a lynch, whereas Armlx was opposing the idea of an investigation circle, not the idea of a lynch. He was quite clearly on the side of lynching.
#93 for reference : I didn't misrepresent him in any way. I just said it was going the way I advocated. I see in #94 that I misunderstood him but it isn't the case.
7. Lurker-lynching will : guilty.
8. My reason for wanting to lynch Swinkee is available now : I was certain he was scum in 8-bit (on MTGS) and have been outraged that the town refused obstinatedly to lynch him. Simple reprisal (
*scribbles Vesuvan's name on a piece of paper*
).
Not a valid reason to want to lynch someone
in this game
. That's not playing to a townie win, that's playing to satisfy a vendetta. That's a scum tell.
Oh, a tell... and Locus voting IS is a tell, then ? I guess you're right, though, anybody knowing me well enough (like you) should know I'd never do that.
9. "MORE directing the town to play into the mafia's hands! " : fortunately, you arrived to save the town from this evil plan. Very strong tell indeed.
Now, what will you suggest that people build instead of cops ?
I would suggest people think for themselves instead of allowing the mafia to metagame against an openly presented strategy.
Now, if I'm scum :
- Why would I want to make sure that townies go for cops instead of vigs or docs ? You may want to explain why making cops is the bad strategy here.
Because allowing the mafia to interfere with a pre-planned pattern of investigations trivialises the value of the town building cops.
You're doing that "straw man argument" thing again.
So, in short, you think it would have been better to let people build vigs and docs and let everyone over-target some people, gathering no info on the rest in the process. Please correct me if I got that wrong.
- Why would I have opposed the No-Lynch strategy ?
Again with the straw man - that's not even part of my argument against you.
Indeed, it isn't.
Why isn't it taken into account in your argumentation ?
- Why would I want to optimize inspections by avoiding some people receiving multiples while others receive none ?
This one has been answered multiple times already ITT. This allows the scum to interfere with the planned investigation pattern by selecting who they will kill and/or roleblock.
And this has been answered ITT : #93, #95, #103, #199 and quite a few others.
I must really be a terrible scum player for you to have found soooooo many tells in each of my posts. Ah, tells and their power... Did you know that being named Vesuvan is a 99% scum tell ?
Wow, ad-hom attacks too. Why don't you just roleclaim "barbarian" already? Now you're attacking me personally and claiming that there are no such things as scum tells.
I guess we should all just shoot each other at random, huh?
I'm saying that "tells" are an efficient way to disguise otherwise poorly-based accusations. Logic + analysis of reasonings and motivations >>> "tells" to me.
Did you seriously take this for an ad-hominem attack ? Misrepresentation again ? You wouldn't do that, would you ?
In my view, a long post doesn't prove a point if the base of the argument is weak. However, it's a good way to make people believe it's solid whereas a close look shows it isn't. When you are unable to synthetize your arguments, it is the sign there is something wrong in them.
Puzzle, there are very strong arguments against you. You just convinced me further that you're scum with this bit, though.
Obv, obv, obv.
A good player, which you know, recently told me that overstating cases is also a scum tell. Should I believe him ?
You're referring to a game in progress. The alleigance of that player and myself in that game is not known at this time. Bad Puzzle!
And by associating your posting style with this, your secret identity goes down the drain. I just didn't think you were in there.
But agreed, I won't insist there. My apologies.
I didn't vote Vesuvan previously because I was actually wondering if he was in fact baiting with a fake case to see who would hop onto the wagon. However, it appears he was serious and unless some really serious points comes out from his whole case on me is justifiable to find me scum, I'll believe he was just pulling an epeeguy.
For now,
FOS Vesuvan
. Maybe listing your actual points proving my scumminess in 10-15 lines would be nice, so that everyone can actually take the time to read them correctly.
I have two cards in hand. Your turn.
By the way,
unvote Swinkee
. I am disappointed but we have apparently reached a point beyond lurker-lynching.
For now, I'll ask Thoth to come up with reasons why I should be voting for him, and I'd like him to respond to those.
Commodore Amazing
