Mini 989 - Disgaea Mafia Episode 2 (Game Over!)

[DTMaster]

He's concentration on flavour, and destroying future claims of characters. Remember Gorrad and his flipout of Riku and how Riku was evil, but good, and went on and on about it destroying any crediable Riku claim (which DGB salvaged not by flavour analysis but scum hunting). Yeah, that.

[Iecerint]

Hmm. Maybe. "Adell's Dad" is much more likely to be the adoptive one (who has no name apart from that) than the biological one (who is Masked Man or Shura most of the game).

On the other hand, the 3 obvious scum, if dram was really follow-canon about it (he was in DG1), is FakeZenon, biodad, biomom. So maybe it's at least worth mentioning.

The part that I found more suspicious tbh is that you claimed your role result out of nowhere. O.o

[TheButtonmen]

I'm back (freedom!), starting my re-read, doing my "What wrong with that post by Kise - The tat edition" but first I need to comment lulwhut posts this page.

FOS TBM & DTM

There's a whole lot of stalling when it comes to naming TBM's character.

I don't know which "parents" other then TBM is just Adell's dad. That's what it says in my PM, whether adoptive or boss fight. Either way: if you are worried TBM is scum, then he'll be alive past day 3. If he's town, he'd die tomorrow night (considering they'll be smart and attack me). and you'll confirm him via NK. Why the hell are you worried man? "sparkles"

I'm frakin worried because we can lynch his goon ass today. I thought you said you were a name cop? If not, then what is the official title of your role name?

Also, DTM: I learned yesterday that in an alternate ending, Adell can turn into an uncontrollable demon if you fraked up and got the worst scenario possible. In this ending, he brutally tongue rapes his friends to death while hidden behind a black screen. Now I'm not saying Adell is scum in this game -- from the start anyway. What I'm getting at is that anything is possible. Shura is closer to mafia than town since him and Adell's demon mama were serving under the main antagonist (who I suspect is the more important scummer ITT, so it makes sense in a possible 9:3 setup that these 3 characters are the mafia here). You may have done some good here by outing TBM's character. What is it that makes you mistake Adell's dad as auto-town?

Yes; Kise is trying to push my lynch using A) Flavour, B) Super Stretch Flavour (My son apprently can turn evil) and C) Not attacking me for my play and D) Kise could you explain this quote to me?

FOS TBM & DTM

There's a whole lot of stalling when it comes to naming TBM's character.

[Iecerint]

Oh, wow. I'd forgotten about that alternate ending part of flavorcase. That is indeed scummy.

[TheButtonmen]

@UK:

I'll do that later when I'm not doing other stuff then.

Had a chance yet?

[UncertainKitten]

@TBM: Not really. Had DnD yesterday. I may or may not have time today depending on how much money I feel like making before I socialize this evening. Tuesday, however, should be fairly free.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I explicitly indicated it within the bit that you quoted. Your implication that I ignored WIFOM implications shows poor attention to detail at best.

Please indicate where in the following sentence you address the WIFOM –

“If I were scum, I would have made up a difference between KTB and Foobert rather than give an answer that reflects inconsistently of me as such. [/self-meta]”

Restated, my original argument was that implying knowledge while explicitly denying it is scummy, because a town person would never be in that circumstance. This is an extremely intuitive argument IMO. Accepting that you legitimately didn't understand it and thought I was making shit up is difficult for me to believe, so you being scum is parsimonious. It's the same as my original perception of KTB's post.

You argument is that Ktb couldn’t recognize that TBM’s vote was a ‘real’ vote without understanding the TBM’s motivation. That’s a false premise. You’ve tried to paint it as Cognitive Dissonance which it is not. Questioning someone regarding their motivation for an action does not directly contradict their perception that said action is genuine.

Contrast that with Magna's response, which is basically to join the wagon (without voting;

(1)he stays on Kise and remains there

) while making it very clear that he has little idea of why it exists.

(2)First post, it seems like he thinks I'm scummy for being wrong about Kise and KTB not doing the same thing (which I still don't understand even upon rereading)

.

Emphasis added –

1. So I shouldn’t be able to explore other avenues of questioning without moving my vote from a candidate? Interesting theory.
2. Explained clearly above.

Then he implies that my asking someone whether KTB is "a misunderstood sweetie or what" is a false dichotomy, which is totally bogus because a) the dichotomy is "X union (1-X)", so it's not false, but more importantly b) the tone is CLEARLY jokey -- "mountains out of molehills," etc.

It’s a false dichotomy because you are presenting the following two options –

1. Ktb is scum for the fail argument against him that you made (and have subsequently abandoned and proclaim him Town)
2. Ktb is mis-understood Town.

Your poor attack on Ktb doesn’t mean he’s Town. It means your attack is poor. It’s with-in the realm of possibility that he’s scum but not for the reasons you presented. Thus it’s a false dichotomy.

UNVOTE: Kise
VOTE: Iec

@M-Lock: I didn't bold because I wasn't serious, therefore did not want the mod to count them as actual votes.

If you weren’t serious about them why bother including ‘fake’ votes at all? What’s the Pro-Town motivation for that?

Manga: Respond to what I just quoted here and tell me what you think.

Well since you’ll be waiting awhile for a player named Manga to respond I’ll answer for them –

Foobert completely misses the point of TBM’s claim of Cognitive Dissonance re: Kise. If Kise has posted saying prod me when the jokes are over and then lurked until RVS is over it would be internally consistent. Instead he makes a joke 4 posts later (posts by everyone, BTW). If anything he’s attacking the argument in a manner completely different than those presented in TBM’s posts. Finally he doesn’t go after anyone for what he sees as poor logic. More unwillingness to commit to a position from Foobert. Overall it hightens my overall scummy read on Foobert.

@Nacho and RBT - With deadline less than a week away am I to assume you both will be more or less lurking to Day 2?

[Iecerint]

1. To the extent that that statement is WIFOM, it's WIFOM because I could be scum intentionally going against my meta. I indicate the point that it is self-meta with [/self-meta].

2. OK, you're going to have to do better than "but it's not," because I don't follow.

3A. You weren't "exploring" Kise. You were voting him and "exploring" me. This is a move I personally employ as scum, so I noticed it. I'm especially likely to vote a scumbuddy and attack a townie (see Fables Grimmafia for what I'm talking about).

3B. See above.

4. Um, no, that's not even remotely what I said. I said "do you think he's town in spite of what I've noticed (misunderstood sweetie), or something else (what)?". That includes all possibilities. You could argue that I'm somehow inappropriately highlighting the first one, but that'd still be wrong, because the point of the question was to interpret TBM's (I think?) attitude toward KTB up to that point. He seemed a little Kise-biased, so I was trying to figure out why.

[dramonic]

Vollkan replaces DavidParker, effective now

[MagnaofIllusion]

Welcome vollkan.

1. To the extent that that statement is WIFOM, it's WIFOM because I could be scum intentionally going against my meta. I indicate the point that it is self-meta with [/self-meta].

Your self-knowledge of your ‘meta’, especially Town meta, invalidates it as anything that’s significant for defence purposes. It can only be at

best

Null. You can easily play to your Town meta as scum given how strongly self-aware you are. Thus each and every statement is WIFOM on its face.

OK, you're going to have to do better than "but it's not," because I don't follow.

Cognitive dissonance is when your action directly conflict with your statements. For example, a hypothetical player who repeatedly says over and over that he doesn’t vote in a haphazard manner while repeatedly vote-hopping for minor reasons is showing CD. KTB is not showing anything of the sort when he implicitly acknowledges that TBM’s vote was non-RVS while questioning TBM’s reasoning. Can you demonstate how KTB's actions were CD?

You weren't "exploring" Kise. You were voting him and "exploring" me. This is a move I personally employ as scum, so I noticed it. I'm especially likely to vote a scumbuddy and attack a townie (see Fables Grimmafia for what I'm talking about).

You haven’t addressed my point. Why should I be barred from having a vote on a player I consider scummy (Kise) and questioning / commenting on other scummy players? This is a multi-scum environment. You argument re: Meta might be useful if you could demonstrate ME doing that. Your play has scum has absolutely nothing to do with my play style.

[Riceballtail]

Hey KTB, where's this fervent lynch RBT speak? Or are you waiting for someone else to build a crap case against?

@Magna: I'll scumhunt my way, you scumhunt yours.

[Iecerint]

1. Well, yeah, there's WIFOM. That is DIFFERENT from what you claimed. You claimed that I slyly introduced WIFOM into the discussion, which is OBVIOUSLY false, because I made it VERY CLEAR that I was introducing it.

The information is not really quite null, because it's verifiable and people don't change as much as they pretend they do.

2. He didn't question his reasoning. He asked if the vote was real. IIRC.

Also, I have never used the term "CD," and never will because it is a disgusting perversion of the ACTUAL definition of the term.

3. Uh, well, yeah, it is within your "rights" to do something scummy, whether because you're scum or because it's your playstyle. Your "playstyle" in this regard is something I do a lot when I'm scum. So I think it's scummy.

Specifically, it's scummy because it trips up lazy isoers or players who scumhunt by VC analysis.

[Kise]

Oh, my, Hasselhoff

VOTE: BUTTONS

ARE YU SHURA OR NOYT

DTM, here is your answer. He's stalling on coming out and saying which parent he is.

[TheButtonmen]

Huh?

[Iecerint]

He wants you to claim whether you're demon daddy or human daddy.

[TheButtonmen]

I don't know?

My role name is Adel's Dad, no name given.

[Iecerint]

See, I could see TBM as scum just because the Kise-lynching is more hardcore than what I saw last game; it's like ABR-tier. And I could see Adell's Dad as a fakeclaim for Shura, too.

But I couldn't see DTM getting "Adell's Dad" on Shura after a rolecop at all (unless Shura were an omni-GF, which implies that the woman isn't in the game, which is kinda sexist, etc).

So, I think TBM is town unless he's scum with DTM hoping to play on the kind of /outguess Kise is already putting forward after TBM flips. DTM would probably also have to have some kind of weak rolecop, too.

So, given a handful of flavor assumptions, the circumstances where TBM are scum are very specific and unlikely to be in play as I see them.

[vollkan]

Okay, standard way I replace is to do a full read, with thoughts on every post that I have thoughts on. I will use my ranking system in this respect. For the unfamiliar, each player gets 50 as a default. Towniness pulls it down, scumminess pulls it up. Some usual caveats that I find I always have to give when using this system (for some reason, using numerical ratings causes some people to go stupid):
1) The numbers just reflect my personal opinion; they aren't based on any statistical evidence any more than normal scumhunting arguments.
2) There is no no set voting threshold (since levels of scumminess vary between games; though, a ranking of 70 is generally a level where I am comfortable voting somebody.
3) If somebody has a rating of 50 at the end (as is not at all uncommon), it does not mean I have "no opinion" on them.

Since phpbb3 appears to have removed post numbers, I'll use page numbers and hopefully you can work things out.

Page 2

TB's Kise vote doesn't make sense to me as a serious vote; I assume it's still early random jokiness. BUt then TB accuses him of disconnect between words and actions, which is a serious accusation but expressed in vague terms (because ambiguity is obviously desirable in this game ). Will hold off on points until I see if this is backed up later. Ice follows this up with "He recognizes enough about your vote to call it real, but not enough to recognize why it's real. Not to mention that the rationale for your vote, given that it's real, is pretty self-evident" - so obvious that Ice can't just state it? More pertinently, fails entirely to explain why this is scummy. +2. Same for Jarti's vote....(holding off to see if backed up)

Page 3

Now MOI accuses Kise of being "self-contradictory" (tautology), unclear why. Jarti finally provides some explanation by saying that TB thinks Kise is complaining about RVS but doing nothing to move away. This makes no sense at all; not one of Kise's posts to that point had even hinted at him having any problem with RVS +2 (and a +2 for MOI since it looks like this is also going to be his reasoning). Kthx now says he undertstands the vote (I sure as hell don't...).

@Anybody

: Where did Kise say he doesn't like RVS?.

I'm going to hold off right now, because I think I must be missing something re Kise

Rankings

Riceballtail

50

MagnaofIllusion

52

Kise

50

Nachomamma8

50

Jarti

52

DavidParker

50

Iecerint

52

UncertainKitten

50

The Buttonmen

50

foobert

50

Kthxbye

50

DTMaster

50

[Iecerint]

So, the obvious reason to vote Kise based on that is that Kise was whining about the game not going ("PM me when the jokes are over"). The disconnect is that if he really wanted to get to scumhunting and all that, he could do it himself. He's either scum that doesn't want to scumhunt and is trying to get points for calling out people for being lazy, or he is himself just lazy.

My guess is that the same post ("PM me when the jokes are over") is the bit people interpret as Kise not liking RVS ("the jokes").

[Jarti]

DTM, I'm fairly sure I said 2 posts & not "2 of my posts". Also you should have been able to get what I was referencing based on Iece's interjection.

"@Jarti: I have some things for you as well, but I have to go do family things now. Will post them later, don't worry!"

Hi kthx it's later.

Hey Magna, we played together for a brief time, what do you think of my misspelling of your name?

Not feeling the flavour focus.

21st, 9:11pm post (yes, without numbers I'm just doing this) by Iece is too wishy-washy: "well flavour this, but flavour that, he could be scum with that playstyle, etc..." thoughts on TBM. Not liking it. He should die.

So is the foobert/rbt/nacho bunch still dead (if you guys revive yourselves you can help us kill Iece or we can swing back to kthx)? I would love for them to actually join the game at some point, I'm pretty sure they all (or most) still have unfinished homework I gave them. vollkan you can finish DavidParker's homework while you're getting settled in, thanks.

[Iecerint]

It's not wishy-washy at all. Kise made a flavor argument about TBM being scum; I countered it arguing that it wasn't probable on flavor grounds (i.e. the same grounds that were the basis of Kise's case).

Why do you not like my flavor focus while not really bothering with the same thing from Kise?

[Kise]

Iece, you're looking like the lynch today. Either you agree with me that you see Buttons as scum, or you don't and find him town. I noticed earlier how you fueled my wagon, yet slyly did not vote. How many people now have you

knowingly

declared town this phase? I'm sure I've seen you pronounce it more than once (other than TBM).

DTM needs to be more clear whether he's a flavor or name cop. All of these vacations are too inconvenient.

[Nachomamma8]

Having trouble getting into this game...

Give me until Wednesday to go back to my good ol' self.

[TheButtonmen]

Iece, you're looking like the lynch today. Either you agree with me that you see Buttons as scum, or you don't and find him town. I noticed earlier how you fueled my wagon, yet slyly did not vote. How many people now have you

knowingly

declared town this phase? I'm sure I've seen you pronounce it more than once (other than TBM).

DTM needs to be more clear whether he's a flavor or name cop. All of these vacations are too inconvenient.

Scum.

[Iecerint]

I've called 2 players town IIRC: KTB and TBM. The first is fine because I changed my opinion due to new information. The second is fine because you attacked him for a bad reason. Then you escalated it when people called you out on it, which I mean. I do that, too (i.e. escalating when people call me out for doing something scummy e.g. self-meta), because I'm kinda snotty sometimes. But your flavor stuff just got weaker as you went along.

Also, the fact that you've attacked me for calling TBM town is itself a slip. Calling someone town is fine if people already publicly think they're scum, cuz the only reason not to call people town is that it identifies a good NK target (doc/track WIFOM notwithstanding). The fact that you don't think TBM is in that category implies that you haven't mentally placed him there, which is consistent with you being scum, because you haven't counted your own case.

Players I think may be scum: Kise, Jarti, Magma.

Caveat is that DTM is probably scum if TBM is. I doubt it, though.