Newbie 972 Game over!

[Netopalis]

Uite: My reason for the compliment was simple: Although you hadn't provided much content, you had shown that you were doing two things: 1) Critically thinking your way through the posts and 2) Constructing and publishing your thoughts in a cohesive and logical manner. You probably don't have a lot of skill in scumhunting yet, but it's clear that you have the talents with which to build that skill, and those talents are simply logic and communication. That's what I was getting at. As an example, let me point you to the following post:

True, but I wasn't commenting about any lack of content per se. What I meant was that relatively,

considering the huge amount of posts that have been made

, little has been said. For a game in it's first 24 hours I would expect about that amount of information or analysis. What did trouble me was the

volume

it's embedded in. If it keeps up like that it will get tedious sifting through it all trying to find something useful.

This displays a surprising sophistication of play. Here's what you did:

A) You identified a problem that somebody had with your play which led them to suspect you.
B) You carefully considered their concern and decided that there was some merit to it.
C) You addressed that concern from two separate angles to allay the poster and encourage them to trust you.
D) You made a promise of future action which is different from the behavior complained of.

This is a very thorough approach, and it shows a certain methodology which can be remarkably useful when playing Mafia. So, yes, you're not an absolutely astounding player. Yet. I do think that you can be, though.

I'll follow with the answer analysis next.

[Netopalis]

ACM:
ACM's analysis is a bit skewed because I've IC'd a game with him in it before, and I used this same methodology. As such, he knew what to expect.

1. Why do you play Mafia?

It keeps the voices at bay.

2. How old are you?

I'm 20-years old.

3. How would you describe your habits of thought? How do you approach problems requiring a creative solution?

Habits of thought? Creative solutions? Is this going to be on the test? I've got no answer.

4. What is your favorite flavor of precious metal, and why?

Copper. Because it's what blood tastes like.

5. How would you approach this game as town? As scum?

Well, I

am

town, so I'd approach the game like I am right now. If I were scum I'd want you to think I was town so I'd probably approach it identically.

6. Are you nervous?

No. Are you?

7. What is the airspeed velocity of a coconut-laden swallow?

Oh, great. Monty Python quotes.

"WHAT- is your favorite color?"

Am I one of the cool kids now?

ACM refused to answer the questions seriously. However, from past experience, ACM knew that this would gain him an attack from me. I believe that he would more likely try to ally himself with me as scum, as he knows my thought processes and the sort of thing that I usually look for. Instead, he chose to blow this off and ignore it. This means that he's not particularly worried about getting lynched, and this pushes him towards the town category. I still suspect him on other grounds, but this is why I initially had a town read on him.

_______________________

Stels:

VOTE: Uite for having a Vega avatar. Why hide behind a mask? =P

1. Why do you play Mafia?
2. How old are you?
3. How would you describe your habits of thought? How do you approach problems requiring a creative solution?
4. What is your favorite flavor of precious metal, and why?
5. How would you approach this game as town? As scum?
6. Are you nervous?
7. What is the airspeed velocity of a coconut-laden swallow?

1. I like these types of games where you have to think a lot.
2. 16
3. I brainstorm all the ideas that pop up in my head. I ask myself questions from the perspective of a townie and scum if I needed to compare my answer to the person in question in order to get the thought process going.
4. Hmm, don't know about this one, I guess I can interpret it this way: Silver, due to the fact that it doesn't have a taste (my teaspoon is made of silver, that's how I know)
5. I got no idea as of now since this is my first game...
6. I was nervous before the thread started, but now I'm totally fine.
7. @imkingdavid: thats the exact same thing I picked in one of the online quizzes on a survival quiz on escapist, thanks for reminding me of that answer. Therefore: African or European?

Stels seems to genuinely engage the questions, although he doesn't have much to say. I don't particularly like his "Nervous" question answer. If he was scum, he likely sensed that there was something up (Experienced player asking unusual questions) and tried to split the difference on the most tricky question, in hopes of not raising any suspicions. This would give me a light scum read were it not for his other posts, which push him into the town category for me.


_________________
Uite:

1. Why do you play Mafia?
2. How old are you?
3. How would you describe your habits of thought? How do you approach problems requiring a creative solution?
4. What is your favorite flavor of precious metal, and why?
5. How would you approach this game as town? As scum?
6. Are you nervous?
7. What is the airspeed velocity of a coconut-laden swallow?

1. Because it is thought-provoking, and different each time.
2. 23
3. I'm fairly analytically inclined. I order the available information and go from there. Also, as a sudent of industrial design engineering, I know many different ways of tackling problems requiring a creative solution.
4. Sodium, especially when combined with chlorine.
5. Suspect everyone, trust no-one.
6. Not really.
7. What is the capuital of Assyria? Incidentally, I ordered the film a while back, and it should be arriving soon.

@imkingdavid: My native language is Dutch. Which explains why it took me over 30 minutes to type all this. Well, that and my general slow writing (I think too much) and the loss of wireless signal halfway through.

Short and to the point, it seems as if Uite is trying to just get this over with. To me, this implies a town read. He didn't spend a great deal of time on the questions, and he isn't particularly worried about getting caught up in something. The key difference in Mafia is figuring out who is town and who is trying to look like town. Uite doesn't try, but he does look townish.

______________________
Aoboco:

1. Why do you play Mafia?
It's fun and I like mental stimulation.

2. How old are you?
14

3. How would you describe your habits of thought? How do you approach problems requiring a creative solution?
I'm actually ADD, so um... My mind is all over the place. I don't have a particular way to approach problems except to think and think and think about them, usually while walking my dog. If I had a time limit, though, I'd go over the problem again and again and look for anything I missed. I recall past experiences and apply it to current problems.

4. What is your favorite flavor of precious metal, and why?
Aluminum =D Well, I guess it isn't precious anymore, but um. It tastes funny xP

5. How would you approach this game as town? As scum?
Oh oh see. I'd probably act like a townie either way, I think. People who sound suspicious probably are >_> And, since I've always been particular about wordplay, I'd pay a lot of attention to how people phrase things.

6. Are you nervous?
Nope.

7. What is the airspeed velocity of a coconut-laden swallow?
I would think slow o.O But I don't know velocity...

One important thing to notice about Aoboco is his age. Due to this, he's likely going to act a bit differently than the other players, and that should be taken into account when reading him. He takes the answers rather serously, but he also doesn't seem to say much. It's hard to get a read from him on these answers, as they can be taken in a number of different ways, so I'd leave it as a neutral read overall. He's definitely a potential scum candidate, though.

________________________
Bigcheese:

Sorry about being later than everyone answering these questions and getting involved in the game.

1. Why do you play Mafia?

I think it's fun, and a change from playing videogames all the time. I enjoy logic games, and mafia is a game where I try to find holes in other people's logic, which is something I've done in internet forum debates for quite some time, so it makes sense I should give mafia a try

2. How old are you?

I will be 21 in less than two weeks (I live in the U.S., so legal drinking age--woohoo)

3. How would you describe your habits of thought? How do you approach problems requiring a creative solution?

Well, as I said before, when playing Mafia I search for holes or inconsistencies in other people's logic, which is something I do when I hear most bits of information and try to decide how I feel about it. I've always seemed to be a slow thinker, as in it takes me a while to come to a conclusion. I pore over the same information again and again, questioning whether or not I am right. Needless to say, I'm usually one of the last people to turn it a test in school.

4. What is your favorite flavor of precious metal, and why?

Well, I think aluminum is the only one I've tasted, so I guess I have to say that. That is a precious metal, isn't it?

5. How would you approach this game as town? As scum?

No matter my alignment, my goal is to win obviously. But I suppose you're asking how I go about doing this. There is no one way to play mafia I think. As a townie, I'd like to do as much as I can to insure we lynch a mafia. As scum, I want to eradicate the townies. As town, I think it's important to stay honest so as not to appear suspicious, for then if they decide to lynch you, not only are you out of the game, but you've hurt your team. As scum, I would probably take any means necessary to achieve my goals.

6. Are you nervous?

Yes, as far as this game goes. I don't have much experience, so I don't always know what's going on in the game in terms of roles and such, so I have the fear of screwing up.

7. What is the airspeed velocity of a coconut-laden swallow?

Lol, Monty Python rules

WALL-O-TEXT AHOY!!!!!

I have a lot of problems with these answers. It looks like he was trying to pad out his answers as much as possible. 1, 2, 3, 6 and 7 seem to be pretty honest, but 4 and 5 are very long without actually saying anything. You can't go that far without saying anything unintentionally. This pushes him into the scum category, where he was leaning for me anyway.

_______________________

Hey guys my name is Holycon this is my second game in my first game i won as mafia WOOT! ive mostly played on Epic Mafia but got tired of the trolls lol!
and to answer netos questions her i go

1. Why do you play Mafia? Because i think its fun lol
2. How old are you? 24
3. How would you describe your habits of thought? How do you approach problems requiring a creative solution? dont know how to answer this one lol
4. What is your favorite flavor of precious metal, and why? um do you mean one you actaly like the tast of cuz thas kinda weird
5. How would you approach this game as town? As scum? i aproch them both as pro town lol
6. Are you nervous? no not really
7. What is the airspeed velocity of a coconut-laden swallow? have no idea but i could google it

oh and also VOTE: AClockworkMelon because his avatar kinda creeps me out =p

Holycon's answers reveal a lot about her, even though they are short. She is quick to dismiss that which she isn't sure about and doesn't seem to want to engage the game through critical thinking by a great deal. Look particularly at #3, which is a prime example of this. Thus, I concluded that she is definitely on the "Feeling" side of the Myers-Briggs "Feeling-Thinking" spectrum. This is confirmed by her later emotional responses and the quickness to which she took offense at things. While bad play, though, this isn't really all that scummy. She would likely try to tone this down if she were scum, as I explained earlier. So, I feel fairly confident in saying that she's town. I engaged in quite a bit of questioning to make sure, but after that, I feel pretty good about it.

___________________
Imkingdavid:

Thanks for the helpful post, Neto. It really was calming to imagine Morgan Freeman reading it. I almost fell asleep.

1. Why do you play Mafia?

It's a whole lot of fun.

2. How old are you?

19

3. How would you describe your habits of thought? How do you approach problems requiring a creative solution?

I just try to reason things out and come up with the most advantageous solution to any problem.

4. What is your favorite flavor of precious metal, and why?

"Flavor"? Whatever... my favorite precious metal is Gold because it looks cool.

5. How would you approach this game as town? As scum?

Well in any game, I try to look subjectively at peoples posts and find any inconsistencies or scummy-type things. I try to not change any behavior either as scum or as town so that meta cannot be used against me. In my opinion, the best way to play as scum is to play as you would as town. Even if that makes it more difficult on you because you are potentially making pro-town decisions that might slightly hinder scum, it will pay off in the long run when people look at your posts.

6. Are you nervous?

No. Why? Should I be?

7. What is the airspeed velocity of a coconut-laden swallow?

African or European swallow?

David doesn't seem to like the idea of random questions very much, which is fairly normal for experienced players encountering this style of gameplay. I'm pretty much the only player on the site who uses it with any frequency. As such, his answers are tough to read. He says a few things which are notable, especially the bit about controlling his meta. The fact that he brought this up does lead me to put him closer to scum, as it's clear that he's really watching himself to make sure that he plays the same way that he usually does, but at the same time, I feel that he would likely say that as town too. So, I don't really know that his answers are all that useful in determining his alignment.


All that being said, almost all of this analysis has been superseded by better reads. Honestly, the biggest value of the random questions is getting people talking in a non-random manner. Usually, it's by attacking me, but not always. Regardless, I think it was productive.

[AClockworkMelon]

True, but I wasn't commenting about any lack of content per se. What I meant was that relatively,

considering the huge amount of posts that have been made

, little has been said. For a game in it's first 24 hours I would expect about that amount of information or analysis. What did trouble me was the

volume

it's embedded in. If it keeps up like that it will get tedious sifting through it all trying to find something useful.

A) You identified a problem that somebody had with your play which led them to suspect you.

Someone suspected Uite? Who?

C) You addressed that concern from two separate angles to allay the poster and encourage them to trust you.

What are the 'two separate angles' that Uite addressed the 'concern' from?

D) You made a promise of future action which is different from the behavior complained of.

What was Uite's promise of future action?

[Netopalis]

You, Stels and Holycon posted light attacks. In retrospect, those weren't as serious as I remembered, but they did require addressing. The main thrust was his lack of posts and his claim that there wasn't much to comment on. He responded by clarifying his point and implying that he would be more active in the future (If you couple this with the post prior to the one I quoted, anyway)

[AClockworkMelon]

True, but I wasn't commenting about any lack of content per se. What I meant was that relatively,

considering the huge amount of posts that have been made

, little has been said. For a game in it's first 24 hours I would expect about that amount of information or analysis. What did trouble me was the

volume

it's embedded in. If it keeps up like that it will get tedious sifting through it all trying to find something useful.

You, Stels and Holycon posted light attacks.

Can you cite an example of the 'light attack' from me directed at Uite that provoked the quoted (and super-duper brilliant with sprinkles on top awesome) post?

He responded by clarifying his point and implying that he would be more active in the future (If you couple this with the post prior to the one I quoted, anyway)

So what you're saying is that his 'promise of action' wasn't included in the amazing coup de grâce post?

C) You addressed that concern from two separate angles to allay the poster and encourage them to trust you.

What are the 'two separate angles' that Uite addressed the 'concern' from?

The main thrust was his lack of posts and his claim that there wasn't much to comment on.

That's a claim and counter-claim. I asked what two separate angles Uite addressed my 'concern' from.

You said that I was attempting to buddy up with you and that is why you thought I was scum. Following your logic, shouldn't we think that you are scum because of your attempt to buddy up with Uite? Can you explain that contradiction, especially given how you are incapable of providing a cite of my buddying up with you?

[AClockworkMelon]

VOTE: Netopalis

[Netopalis]

I can't point to a single post, it's sprinkled throughout your interactions with me and Holycon a few pages back. It's mainly the fact that you started picking up on the same line of questioning that I was using and the way that you did that. It's a light case, like I said. Buddying up to Uite woud be pointless for me as scum, as he's not in a particular position of power and he doesn't suspect me right now. I'm simply fulfilling my IC function. I'm sorry that it's not as neatly packaged as you'd like, but that's Mafia.

[AClockworkMelon]

You were an IC in the other game I played, too. I don't remember you pronouncing anyone as a Golden Child as part of your job function in that game. A shrug and a wave of the hand doesn't do anything for me. It's too bad you can't approach my concerns with as much grace and sophistication as you claimed Uite did.

[Netopalis]

Point 1: Are you sure about that? I had very few things to say about Theguide and Die Prediger. I try to give out a lot of feedback, both positive and negative when I IC. Uite has impressed me thusfar, as has Stels. I hardly think that this is a solid case of buddying.

Point 2: Alright, then, if you want a full explanation over this rather meaningless point, I'll give it to you. Here are the two major posts that I'm referring to:

The reason I haven't contributed much yet is simple. Most of you live in the United States, while I'm in the Netherlands. So, on account of being in a different timezone from most of you, I was simply asleep and not lurking or anything. In fact, I intend to be an active player, because it's finals time, and my only exam is in two weeks. Mafia is a good way to take the occasional break from studying!

Also, while a lot of words have been written, not much has been said. In five pages I've seen some heat on holycon, but nothing either way with a bit of newbieness thrown in, and some minor suspicions of Netopalis on account of his style, rather than anything substantive.

@Stels: I think the Vega avatar is very appropriate for Mafia. The mask would symbolise the mask we all put on while playing the game. Like Vega, the mask is more for protection than deceit. Whether you're town or mafia, you need to hide your true face to avoid setting off the wrong people. Look too scummy and you'll get lynched, look too town and you won't survive the night. Also, Vega is a very interesting character. He's noble, yet savage and can attack from all directions with powerful strikes, all qualities that I think are very useful in the game of Mafia. Then there's the physical resemblance; Vega's tall and barrel-chested with long dark hair, like me.

@holycon: I know I'm in danger of sounding pedantic here, but why the consistently bad spelling? Unless you have a good reason for it (dyslexia or the like) it comes off to me as if you're not taking all this very serious, which makes it very hard for me to take you serious. I'm no grammar/spelling nazi or anything, and it doesn't have to be perfect, but put some effort into it, please. English is not my native language, and it saddens me to see a native speaker be worse at it than I am.

True, but I wasn't commenting about any lack of content per se. What I meant was that relatively,

considering the huge amount of posts that have been made

, little has been said. For a game in it's first 24 hours I would expect about that amount of information or analysis. What did trouble me was the

volume

it's embedded in. If it keeps up like that it will get tedious sifting through it all trying to find something useful.

Sure, they're best read in tandem, but I thought that the second would serve to illustrate my point. As for attacks....

I agree, it is nice to have a game with a lot of activity. I've seen a lot of Day One games that just didn't have enough activity and it made them boring. Although as active as we are, can't help but say that not all of us are as active *cough* Uite *cough*

I don't know weather to take offense to this or not. I don't think you have any place to judge someone like this considering most the time I'm posting on my cell phone in between calls at work, and if you had actually read the other posts you would have seen that. Because I specifically said my post may be a bit horrendous because of that. So for you to come in here and say i'm not taking this game serious because of my spelling and grammar is f-ed up. And tbh if I have a learning disability how is it any place for you to point it out, its not. I don't know how they approach that stuff were you from but were I'm from it's rude and insensitive. Maybe before you criticize someone for something not relevant to the game, you should think to yourself am I being rude and or downright hurtful in how i'm criticizing that person.

(Although the second one is a criticism on a different point, it's still something of an attack on him. I also misread ACM's post in haste and thought that he said that he WASN'T giving Uite the benefit of the doubt. My apologies on that.)

Altogether, yes, it's somewhat flimsy. This isn't a case being used to attack someone, it's a few suggestions meant to improve a player's play. As such, it's a bit less rigorous. What are you getting at?

Point 3: Buddying from ACM:

Actually, I'm not aware. Please clear that up for me?

Read this. I hope Neto will be along shortly because he explained it to me particularly well in

my

first game.

@Clockwork: I thought we were done with this probing stuff but anyways ill answer anyways but this is the last i want to be asked about my thoughts on probing

Who said we were done with it? The consensus has been that probing is the most effective tool we have for finding scum.

(Following a protracted argument regarding the effectiveness of my probing)

Concerning Neto and Holy's discussion about 'acting out' and provocative probing: Provocation is, IMO, one of the best ways to bait scum into making tells.

You have far more experience than I do so I'll take your word for it.

(Referring to me)

@Holy - Based on what you know about MafiaScum, how do you think scum behavior might differ between the early and late game?

(Almost directly taken from some of my initial questions, albeit switched around a bit. Definitely along the vein of stuff that I'd ask.)

Neto

Always calm
Tends towards control

And that's just the stuff that I was able to find on a cursory search. Do you still feel that the argument about you buddying up to me is meritless?

[AClockworkMelon]

Point 3: Buddying from ACM:

Actually, I'm not aware. Please clear that up for me?

Read this. I hope Neto will be along shortly because he explained it to me particularly well in

my

first game.

You

did

explain it particularly well to me in my first game. Isn't explaining things your job?

@Clockwork: I thought we were done with this probing stuff but anyways ill answer anyways but this is the last i want to be asked about my thoughts on probing

Who said we were done with it? The consensus has been that probing is the most effective tool we have for finding scum.

I think that most people who play this game know that probing is the most effective tool we have for finding scum. Are most people buddying up with you?

Concerning Neto and Holy's discussion about 'acting out' and provocative probing: Provocation is, IMO, one of the best ways to bait scum into making tells.

Ditto.

You have far more experience than I do so I'll take your word for it.

Another reference to your IC status.

@Holy - Based on what you know about MafiaScum, how do you think scum behavior might differ between the early and late game?

(Almost directly taken from some of my initial questions, albeit switched around a bit. Definitely along the vein of stuff that I'd ask.)

What, are you jealous that someone else is using a method similar to yours or something? Get over it.

Neto

Always calm
Tends towards control

The bit about "Tends towards control" is a negative point, Neto. Do you even remember my rather pointed criticism of you from the beginning of the game? It centered around your attempts to control things.

And that's just the stuff that I was able to find on a cursory search. Do you still feel that the argument about you buddying up to me is meritless?

Why yes, I do.

[Netopalis]

So, if it's true, it's not buddying?

[holycon]

@Neto: TBH besides the post he just gave Utie really hasn't contributed much in the way of substance he has posted a bit on the lack of content to post on and what not and hasn't in anyway tried to help the discussion along and really at this point in the game i know its harder to get dicusstions going because nothing has happened but at least maybe put more of an effort towards it instead of saying "i'll be more active later" and letting everyone else do the discussion for him and Aoboco has been the same way


@Clockwork: I dont think Neto is budding up to Utie I think he's just point out that a few thing about Utie that he liked

[holycon]

So, if it's true, it's not buddying?

telling Aoboco that you as a IC can explain something better then him is not budding up that is doing your job

[Netopalis]

Right, my point wasn't that Uite has contributed a lot, just that he has the potential to do so. And yes, telling Aoboco that I can explain it better is indeed my job, but looking through ACM's posts, he does that sort of thing with a surprising frequency.

[AClockworkMelon]

So, if it's true, it's not buddying?

Is it buddying if the praise is misplaced? Like your praise of Uite?

@Clockwork: I dont think Neto is budding up to Utie I think he's just point out that a few thing about Utie that he liked

So Neto is capable of pointing out things that he likes and it doesn't qualify as buddying but I'm incapable of doing the same? Sorry, that's a contradiction. He's as capable of being scum as anyone else. You're blinded by his shiny IC badge.

[Netopalis]

I don't feel that it's all that misplaced. Also, I think that Holycon's point was that neither of us were buddying.

[holycon]

@Neto: I realize he may do that alot saying you can explane something better than him but is not necessarily budding up it could just be that he is confident in your skills at a IC not trying to answer for him just dosnt sit right with me that you are using it as a reason for him being scum because i have a feeling he would be that way weather hes scum or not.

[AClockworkMelon]

Right, my point wasn't that Uite has contributed a lot, just that he has the potential to do so. And yes, telling Aoboco that I can explain it better is indeed my job, but looking through ACM's posts, he does that sort of thing with a surprising frequency.

Can you cite any more examples of my telling Aoboco that you can explain something better? Can you cite any examples of me telling

anyone

that you can explain something better? You cited one so far. If that qualifies as 'surprising frequency' to you, then you must be easily surprised.

[holycon]

@Clockwork: your only seeing what you want to see I also told Neto that you pointing out his IC ability's i not budding up to him read the whole thing before jumping on me please

[AClockworkMelon]

I think that Holycon's point was that neither of us were buddying.

Seeing the post she made directly after this one, I see that that is the case.

[AClockworkMelon]

I also told Neto that you pointing out his IC ability's i not budding up to him

I see that now.

[holycon]

I just wanted you both to kinda see what it looked like from a third persons point a view

[AClockworkMelon]

My vote on Neto stands. I think his IC badge looks like it has some scum on it.

[AClockworkMelon]

Character Profiles

Holy

Emotional
States that she does not support Lynch All Lurkers
States that she believes scum are inactive in the early game
Dislikes conflict and attempts to mediate it

Neto

Always calm
Tends towards control
Inaccurately interprets player motives
Contradicts himself
Buddies with players

Aobaco

Switches sides
Passive

Cheese

Lurker
States that he believes scum tend to become more aggressive in the endgame

David

States that he does not support Lynch All Lurkers in noob games

Stels

States that he believes emotion is used by scum to appear innocent

[Netopalis]

I was using an example that Holycon had used. Let me put this in perspective....

You have made 81 posts in this game, ACM. Of those 81 posts, 13 either reference me in a positive light or pick up on a line of questioning that I had previously started. That's a bit more than 1/5th. Now, do I think that this is a huge point? No. Do I think that it's a completely insignificant one? No. I just think that it's something which makes me suspect you early on. I am by no means set in stone on this.