Mini 989 - Disgaea Mafia Episode 2 (Game Over!)

[Iecerint]

The point is to highlight that UK is making attacks on me that don't make sense and/or she won't/can't clarify.

(I suppose I understand how the attacks being revealed as weak could look like distancing, but.)

[UncertainKitten]

Oh, they're pretty solid. I just refuse to reveal the mechanics of them. I'm pretty sure that if anyone took my general statement of scum intent and looked for it, they'd see what I see, assuming they were looking for scum.

[TheButtonmen]

Oh, they're pretty solid. I just refuse to reveal the mechanics of them. I'm pretty sure that if anyone took my general statement of scum intent and looked for it, they'd see what I see, assuming they were looking for scum.

I can't begrudge that statement of yours without sever hypocrisy, so give me a starting point and/or focus and tonight I will reread the whole argument.

[UncertainKitten]

Well, the biggest tipping point was the post where he was talking about how nostalgic it is to be at L-1.

Honestly, that's not the scumtell in and of itself. It's the way he phrased it that sounds more like scum than town.

I mean, hell, we all know how I talk about the idea of me being lynched. Comparative analysis should help there.

[Riceballtail]

For the sake of simplicity, I will not quotestripe your entire ridiculous argument.

P1/2: Yeah, RVS yo
P3: This was a response to Jarti's post, in fact, the same one that you say I was called out for.
p4: I made the point that I was worried that Foob hadn't seen anything scummy. Yes, I had noticed some scummy things. I agree that you should only call out things that are scummy if you see them. (See below for example)
p5: You best believe there's some misrep in "no content". I didn't think you need to have it explained to you.
p6: Obviously I disagree that my posts do infact have content. I stated quite clearly in P3 that the two wagons at that time were not particularly good to me, and that I was focused on Foob at the time. P4 also reflects my interest in Foob as being a lynch candidate with my concern of not having found anything scummy.
P7: Yeah, you push my wagon and then hide. Screams "baww I can't do it help me scumbuddies" to me. Yes, I scumhunt my own way. If you don't like it too bad. Obviously it caught you!
P8: This post, made a mere 22 hours after the previous one, was made to point out the reflection of my previous post, and point out to TBM that he was wrong about my absence.
P9: Yeah, I have been sharing opinions. Not that hard to read.
P11: Right. OMGUS. After accusations of misrep and then hiding from your failed wagon push. Clearly OMGUS. No possible way it could be justified.
P12: Sorry for pointing out a better lynch candidate. Oh wait, I'm not.

At this point, I'm basically guaranteed that I know 2 scum. Thanks for that last minute distance on your buddy in your wall-o-text.

I'm now extremely confident KTB is scum.

CONFIRM VOTE:KTB

[TheButtonmen]

If people don't stop PBPA I may in fact kick a

kitten

puppy.

[vollkan]

My playstyle (and TBM's, it appears) in RVS is to go with the first thing that isn't quite null and run with it to see where it takes me. Sometimes it's someone's tone being off, sometimes it's as superficial as /confirm order if that information is public. You're claiming that that's scummy because it's a "reach," I'm saying that that's my approach to RVS -- get out of it as soon as something investigable is apparent. It's also a catch-22 as I see it, because anything that early in the game can be a scummy "reach" by your worldview.

It wasn't simply an early stage RVS attack attack, though; you kept pushing it subsequently. I completely accept that RVS can justify otherwise excessive attacking on minor points. But you've continued to argue for the legitimacy of your argument against Kise; only now do you seem to be trying to immunise yourself on it by painting it as an early game playstyle thing.

You can't have it both ways.

I think you may've passed said elucidation in your readthrough? But I summarized it in the bit you just quoted -- KTB's case on me was good, MoI's was very bad.

This was in response to my questioning how you could say MOI sounded "fake". And the best you can come up with is to say that is case was "very bad". Not only is that untrue, but you've failed entirely to explain how his case being "bad" justifies you calling it "fake".

LOL. Now you're using dictator metaphors to describe my views of the game. This is rich. Yes, you can make little pokes at someone you're not voting. That's not what MoI did. IIRC, his Kise vote was just RVS, though I haven't gone back to doublecheck.

Way to completely skirt around my point, which I will quote again:

It's a playstyle thing between people. People who focus on psychology/reasoning analysis are naturally going to be more inclined to forget their vote while they follow new leads. It's perfectly legitimate that you might vote X for something, but then pursue Y for something dogged which you might actually suspect of being more serious than what you voted X for. It's entirely unreasonable to expect people to ensure that their vote always matches where their suspicion is; and it's just silly and absolutist to think of it as a scumtell.

You are attacking MOI for pursuing somebody he isn't voting. Your stated basis for doing so is that such conduct frustrates a certain type of player. My point was simple - those players cannot expect every other player to play in a manner ideal for their strategy, let alone justifiably say that anybody who doesn't do so is scummy.

Your notion that everybody should bend their play to suiit VC analysis is complete crap. I've seen VC analysis work; I've seen it fail - same as most other scumhunting strategies.

This really does look like you are just trying to throw absolutely everything you can at MOI, without actually discrediting the substance of his arguments.

So, the gist is that DTM claimed that TBM's role is "Adell's Dad." Adell's Dad in the game is a comic relief NPC who is the adoptive father of the main character. My guess going in is that it would be a VT-type role.

Kise correctly pointed out that Adell also has a biological Dad in-game -- Masked Man/Shura, who is an antagonist, albeit a brainwashed one who has little moments of mental freedom whenever he's around the party in-game. Shura is less likely to be town than Adell's (otherwise nameless) Dad. So, decent point, even though it postulates more than a little bastardry in the form of a role-cop proof GF scum Shura (one who checks "Adell's Dad" rather than "Masked Man" or "Shura").

Kise's subsequent elaborations are not good at all, though. He alludes to an obscure ending in the source material (they're famous for having lots of obscure hidden endings) where Adell turns into a villain because realZenon (like a Chaotic Neutral/Evil-type entity that hangs out inside protagonist Rozalin, opposed to main Lawful Evil villain fakeZenon) possesses him. He argued that this might mean that Adell was scum with his adoptive parents or something. First, this is wrong because Adell flipped town as part of the flavor pregame. Second, this is based on really really really out-there flavor, which I can only interpret as trying to support a perceived weakness in his attack on TBM.

Then I agree with you; Kise's flavour speculation is just silly. It doesn't bespeak of an honest mindset and suggests reasonably strongly that he is seeking to discredit this.

@vollkan – Having seen your play in several other games I have never seen you utilize this Point-based method. Is it something you only utilize when replacing in?

Up until about mid last year, I used it in between 50 and 75% of my games. I tend to use it now only when I am needing to find my bearings very quickly - hence, usually either if I have fallen behind in a game or, of course, if I am replacing. Playing through an entire game leads me to naturally build up a ranking in my head; whereas simply reading up doesn't give me that mental positioning of people, so I use my rankings as a means of doing that.

I don't think it alters the way I scumhunt; it just helps me do it more quickly.

Also, I’m going to disagree with your perception that Kise’s “call me when the jokes end” doesn’t trigger concern. If he truly had distaste for the jokey phase of Day 1 he wouldn’t be making posts re “Thundercats Hooo” on the same page.

To the contrary, I think that can really only support my position.

Kise's actions are scummy to the extent that he was being self-righteous about the jokiness, right? If he is doing it himself, that patently undermines the notion that he is scum trying to AtE by criticising people for not being serious. His conduct is more consistent simply with a player (town or scum; I am definitely not saying his play is a town-tell) who is just apathetic about the joke phase.

The DTM town scenarios seem more likely than either DTM Mafia scenario but I’m not going to rule them out. End result – the scenarios on their face have me leaning to DTM as Town when combined with the his content so far.

Agreed. As a general rule, scum tend to play conservatively. It's a slight towntell for DTM, therefore, but it by no means clears him.

p6: Here's the reply I get: "@KTB: Why don't you start by telling me how my posts have no content. Last time I checked, they did." Classic deflection post. This happens to be a scum-tell in my book.

How is that "deflection"? If you accuse him of not having content, he's entitled to put you to proof.

[Kthxbye]

Jarti: Any specific reasons you seem so willing to "swing back to kthxbye" if the Iece wagon fails? Please explain.

MoI: I considered 3, 5, and 9 to contain at least some opinion, explanation of opinions, or at least a stance on what and who he sees scummy actions from. As you can see, I got none of that from RBT's posts. I'm not saying that Nacho isn't lurking or looking scummy for doing so, I'm saying RBT is more obviously acting scummy.

Iece and UK: While I understand in essence what you are saying about RBT always being scummy, I don't agree with letting it go. First off, people who look scummy in every game develop meta that backs them up when they are town acting scummy. How do you separate that from when they are scum though? I don't agree with that strategy from a player and have considered making it a policy for me to lynch them either way. Basically, if you're scummy, you should be lynched regardless of your meta showing you do the same thing as town. It makes it too easy for that person to make it to end game due to "always being scummy". That brings me to secondly, I do not want to end up in end game with someone who has played scummy all game. Scum don't lynch them and there's always the doubt that they could be scum this game even though they play scummy as town.

RBT: so you really think you've contributed in any way to this game. wow. RBT land must be trippy. You say you know 2 scum. Well, you obviously think I'm one, for OMGUS reasons I might add, who is the second one? Also, where's your case? If you are "extremely confident" I'm scum, why are you not trying to convince people of such? It's not very town behavior. Also, because I was busy with real life that = "hiding" from a failed push? Also, how do you explain that once I came back, I picked up from where I left off? Also, how do you discredit my claims of you actively lurking when you post nothing till someone says something directly about you? Then you post almost immediately afterward (the RBT, KTB, Foobert party comment and your immediate reply comes to mind as one example). Also, please explain how it's townie to ignore questions directed at you.

TBM: Sorry, don't know how to create links and I thought it was important enough to show just how scummy RBT is playing and why he should be lynched today. I figured since he posted so little, it wouldn't be too bad. Aside from the PBPA, what are you thoughts on the case against him? I haven't seen you so much as acknowledge it. It's pretty easy to see the scum, so why (as a townie) would you ignore it altogether?

[UncertainKitten]

@Kthx: But on the flip side, a policy lynch means that 3/4ths of the time you're lynching town. At least if I revisit him later, I'll have more material to try to read for RBT-scum intent.

As it stands, I feel there are people more likely to be scum sitting out there and an RBT focus will not end well.

[Nachomamma8]

V/LA until Monday Night

[Kthxbye]

How is that "deflection"? If you accuse him of not having content, he's entitled to put you to proof.

I see it as deflection due not because of the post itself but due to completely ignoring my questions. I agree that he's entitled to ask for "proof", but that answered none of the question I had which were

How does your latest post differ in any way from the reason I voted for you in the first place? That's your 5th post and again, 0 content. How is my vote misrepping you when the reasons behind it are factual. Where is the content, in your opinion, in any of your posts? How are your posts moving us along in any way to finding scum? On the flip side, what do you think about Nacho so far in this game?

So while asking for me to explain my opinion of his posts isn't scummy, deflecting my questions with nothing but a question is.

[Iecerint]

@ vollkan

1. I disagree. For the same reason that early game play "justifies" investigating relatively weakly justified votes, it "justifies" investigating relatively weak reads. I'm putting justify in quotes there to respond to another of your points --when I use the word "justify" here, it's NOT the case that justification is something attributed to the play. It's something the play GETS just by being early game. (Does that make sense?) This is why your claim that I'm "trying to immunize" myself against my play does not make sense; in other words, I'm using "justified" to mean "the right thing to do here" rather than "forgiven by Christ" or whatever.

I'm not expressing myself very well, maybe, so let me know if the above is unclear. Maybe a better word to use would have been that my early game play is "normative." Hence, there's no need for me to "immunize" myself with "justification," at least not in the typical sense of the word.

2. Nah, I make a big post after that where I explain why KTB's case was good and MoI's was bad. Maybe you missed it. The original post was mostly unexplained, though, yeah. To respond to your immediate points, I disagree with the former ("not very bad"), and the characteristic that made me use the word "fake" was that they didn't appear to display very clear original critical thinking on the subjects.

3. It's not because it "frustrates" a certain kind of player. It's because -- given my interpretation and recollection of MoI's behavior at the time -- it is deceptive to players who don't read him carefully, as his vote implies suspicion other than what his actions indicate. (In other words, it's scummy unless you have a good explanation.) MoI did EVENTUALLY get around to voting me, though, like a day or so before I posted that, so it's not quite as egregious as I'd thought. (This is pretty much the same thing as in the bit you quoted, btw.)

I don't think it's outlandish to suggest that people should vote who they most want to lynch. If your playstyle is different from that, you'd better have a good justification.

@ Kise, do you think I misrepresented or misunderstood your flavor argument in the bit vollkan just quoted and commented on?

@ KTB, I agree with Miss Kitten 100% on RBT. Lynching him won't teach him anything; I think he likes to watch people squirm at him. The way to deal with him is a combination of PoE and investigation. There's no way around it.

@ All, Jarti is scum. Please recognize this and vote him with me.

[Riceballtail]

RBT: so you really think you've contributed in any way to this game. wow. RBT land must be trippy. You say you know 2 scum. Well, you obviously think I'm one, for OMGUS reasons I might add, who is the second one? Also, where's your case? If you are "extremely confident" I'm scum, why are you not trying to convince people of such? It's not very town behavior. Also, because I was busy with real life that = "hiding" from a failed push? Also, how do you explain that once I came back, I picked up from where I left off? Also, how do you discredit my claims of you actively lurking when you post nothing till someone says something directly about you? Then you post almost immediately afterward (the RBT, KTB, Foobert party comment and your immediate reply comes to mind as one example). Also, please explain how it's townie to ignore questions directed at you.

Yeah, it's pretty trippy. Things taste very purple and bright lights flash everywhere. Watch out for the Jabberwocky though.

I do think you're one, and it does have a lot to do with OMGUS... your blatant overuse of it to push a mislynch. Your blatant AdHom is only adding to the fuel.

My case is laid out rather well, you just don't see it because it's not block-o-text.

If you were so "busy" you could have at least made a post, or declared V/LA... but you didn't. You went straight into silent lurker land. Only after you came back did you give us an excuse. I was extremely busy over that weekend too, but I still made the effort to post.

As previous stated, I had posted 22 hours before that particular post. It was obvious that he had made a mistake, and I took the effort to correct it. You may stop your misrep now.

I don't ignore every question, just some of them. Generally speaking, I ignore the ones that really don't benefit the game IMO.

If you keep this up, I'll start actually putting real scumtells to your posts.

@Iec: Can we bag KTBscum first? Then I'll join you on Jarti.

[TheButtonmen]

@ All, Jarti is scum. Please recognize this and vote him with me.

Notice what Kise does when I'm not pushing his wagon?

[dramonic]

Talking about Kise, I should probably prod him.
Votecount after my supper.
Oh and btw, deadline is like, within 31 hours or something?

[TheButtonmen]

Talking about Kise, I should probably prod him.
Oh and btw, deadline is like, within 31 hours or something?

Hanging people from tree is like prodding them right?

[TheButtonmen]

Everytime I push his wagon he shows up spewing uselessness to look active and the minute I stop he goes back to lurking.

[Iecerint]

Yeah. I'm not crazy about Kise, either. Jarti just jumps out a little more, perhaps partially because of the technique you've indicated.

[Iecerint]

@ RBT, while KTB's lurkerhunting is sort of bad, I think his case on me was the only one that made sense. As such, I have a town read on him, and don't want to lynch him today.

[Iecerint]

WHAT THE HELL DEADLINE IS SOON GOD.

A Jarti lynch, especially one just by me, is not going to happen in the brief time we have.

Vote: Extension

Unvote; Vote: Kise

Kise is my top suspect that has a chance of being lynched.

[Iecerint]

ALERT ALERT ALERT

TIME TO SAY YOU'LL KILL ME OR YOU'D RATHER KILL KISE, BASICALLY. OR BEG DRAM FOR MORE TIME FOR PRATTLING.

ALERT ALERT ALERT

[UncertainKitten]

I think my stance is clear. Can't say I LIKE it, since Kise isn't exactly sterling...I just trust my reads.

[Iecerint]

Main basis for Kise lynch as I see it: awful, terribad flavorlogic + sporadicish posting.

I've seen evidence of the latter elsewhere on the site to a certain extent, though. :/

GOD CAN'T WE JUST LYNCH JARTI HE IS SCUM AARHRHHGGRHHGRGH.

[Iecerint]

UK, do you think Jarti is scum?

[UncertainKitten]

Why is Jarti scum? I haven't looked into him really.