Newbie 960 - Game Over

[Skill006]

@equinox: Yeah, I didn't have anyone I was suspicious of yesterday. Sorry that the reverse lynch order list confused you. It was probably the way I set it up, making it look all official and everything >.>

I'm alright with a doc counter claim. If andrew's the real doc, he'll be dead tonight anyway, and if he's not, well, we have two suspects, one of which has to be scum.

[Skill006]

Actually, I'm relatively ok with the king d lynch. I don't think he's scum, but I think his lynch will provide a lot of information (a lot more than a policy lynch of andrew, anyway ).

Can you tell us what information the king d lynch has given you?

Forgot to answer this question. I'm still in the process of looking through some iso's and other games, so when I'm done with those I might have a more definite answer. Of course, lynches rarely provide any solid information for me, I just thought that this one would, yet it of course leads to a whole bunch of WIFOM so...

[I Am Innocent]

I don't see why it is so important to get out of Andrew who he protected.

Because Memnon died. So either 1) Andrew is a doctor and protected someone other than Memnon, 2) Andrew is a doctor and protected Memnon and was roleblocked, or 3) Andrew is scum.

By having Andrew admit to who he protected, we can now eliminate #1.

He is either scum and is lying or he is town and was role blocked.

Correct. Though we weren't 100% sure of this until Andrew confirmed who he protected.

Right now I have zero desire to lynch Andrew, I think there are scummier people around.

I agree in that I have zero desire to lynch Andrew right now (I'll explain more below), though I on the other hand do find him to be one of the scummier people around.

Of course, if Andrew isn't really the Doc and the real one

is

out there, they should have claimed already. Hell they should have countered yesterday so we could have lynched Andrew then.

Noted that you are okay with the CC right now.

I disagree with you that they should have countered yesterday

. If Andrew is lying scum and a real doctor was hidden, Memnon most likely would have been roleblocked and Andrew would have miraculously not died. Doctor remains hidden to continue to protect the cop, maybe we get lucky and catch the roleblocker D2, and investigations start going through.

But right now I am finding IAI and Equinox scummy for set up speculation and seemingly wanting to lynch our doc for reasons I don't understand.

Like I said earlier,

I don't think we consider lynching Andrew until LyLo unless a CC occurs

. If no CC occurs, then Andrew must be a goon or a Doctor.

By catching a Roleblocker, we would then have a confirmed innocent

(Roleblocker + Cop proves a Doctor is also in play, which with no CC would have to be Andrew).

Make sense?

[ToG]

Agree with Counter-claiming now. But I do understand as to why the doc didn't cc yesterday as it could have saved the cop from getting lynched. As the cop has been lynched I don't think there will be a cc.

[ToG]

sorry not lynched meant killed.

[I Am Innocent]

Agree with Counter-claiming now. But I do understand as to why the doc didn't cc yesterday as it could have saved the cop from getting lynched. As the cop has been lynched I don't think there will be a cc.

That's exactly the point. As long as the Cop was alive, the Doctor needed to stay hidden.

That makes four players who are okay with counter claiming, at least two of which have to be townie.

I am not the Doctor for the record.

[Equinox]

aka me? inexperienced? what are you trying to hint here?

I wasn't talking about you. I just said you were doctor in that scenario. Your reaction here is noted.

how does that look better? anyone
can write that

True. Skill006 could have faked anything. The thing that looks better is she actually took a stance. Yesterday, it was just "I don't want to lynch these people." Now there's a real list of suspects.

I'm sick right now so please excuse my drop in posts. I'm hoping it is something that I can shake pretty quickly.

Get well soon!

I don't see why it is so important to get out of Andrew who he protected.

We're in a war for information. I may suspect that andrew94 protected Memnon. I may suspect that the roleblocker targeted andrew94. It may be painfully obvious that that is what he will say. However, I want to hear that directly from andrew94. It's actually really odd that you find our insistence scummy. Asking someone to confirm your suspicions is pretty standard, AFAIK.

But right now I am finding IAI and Equinox scummy for set up speculation and seemingly wanting to lynch our doc for reasons I don't understand.

I definitely should have said this earlier, but I get the feeling you're tunneling me. Yeah, you're quite certain that I am scum, but it's as if I can't do anything without hearing, "Equinox is scummy." That... is uncomfortable. Eh, whatever. Fact of life in a game of Mafia.

I always do setup analysis. Thanks to whatever the hell happened on Day 1, the scum know exactly what the setup is, but we don't. Whatever information I can get in this little game is going to help, WIFOM be damned. ...as long as I don't fall into the trap of confirmation bias, setup analysis isn't harmful.

Also, we were not pushing for an andrew94 lynch. The current situation means that lynching andrew94 would be a Bad Idea, unless he pulls a gigantic slip. Chances are good that he's clear, however.

Hell they should have countered yesterday so we could have lynched Andrew then.

I specifically asked that no one counterclaim doctor. We didn't need to know about that in Day 1, and we most certainly didn't need scum to know. Now we do, so now we ask.

Any disagreements out there about having people CC Doctor?

Not from me.

@equinox: Yeah, I didn't have anyone I was suspicious of yesterday.

Yay for fellow fence-sitter. Uh, I still don't know why you have a reverse lynch list, even if it was to respond to Sotty7... and then not have a real lynch list. Surely not everyone was a null read?

===

YAY STANCES. Yay for tl;dr section of a wall-o'-quotes. Also, yay for stream of consciousness. <_<

Sotty7 finding I Am Innocent's and my NK and setup speculation scummy is really strange. However, as an IC, Sotty7-scum should not be objecting, as that would go against the IC teaching condition; therefore, it's just odd. However, tunneling on Equinox and then looking for her partner... that I need to look into. I haven't flipped yet, and the day isn't over; speculation of scum pairs is just that -- speculation. IMO, not useful... but that opinion may be due to me knowing that any pair with Equinox in it is wrong. >_>

andrew94 has really odd reactions to stuff. Not sure what to make of those, but I do know it's setting my gut-based scumdar off as much as his defensiveness in Day 1 did. Logic is telling me he's not scum, though. Blarghargh. Gonna follow the logic for now.

Skill006 taking stances is good. Not sure why she had trouble separating town and null reads on Day 1, though.

Mod: Requesting prod of NomDePlume.

===

EBWOPreview:

I Am Innocent, either we play popcorn with the claims, or we go in some sort of order. I disagree with everyone just claiming as they go. Since you've already claimed, pick someone to go next.

[I Am Innocent]

EBWOPreview:

I Am Innocent, either we play popcorn with the claims, or we go in some sort of order. I disagree with everyone just claiming as they go. Since you've already claimed, pick someone to go next.

Not sure what your reason is for playing popcorn, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and play along.

Popcorn Equinox

since you were just here.

[Equinox]

It probably wouldn't make much of a difference, but I like having some degree of unexpectedness when dealing with role claims, as it forces scum to either claim immediately or cause a delay while they think about it.

CLAIM: NOT DOCTOR

Popcorn ToG.

[Sotty7]

Seriously this is silly, why are we popcorning?

IF THERE IS A REAL DOC OUT THERE THEY SHOULD CLAIM ASAP.

With that out there, can we scum hunt for a change?

Equinox I'm not tunneling on you because I am questioning everyone and anything I find scummy. You are just top of my list, that's not tunneling. IAI was one of my most townie players yesterday, but his continued insitance on talking set up is making me look his way. This by very definition

is not tunneling

.

Set up analysis is scummy because it is not scum hunting, it gives scum a chance to hide and look like they are doing something worthwhile when they are not. Scum already

know

the set up. This is a waste of the towns time and is a perfect way for the scum to distract us from hunting them. Scum hunt a little and maybe I will find you less scummy.

[Sotty7]

Okay, I just re-read that post and I sound super cranky, which I am, but it is more to do with my fever than this game. So sorry about.

Basically they only way I will vote Andrew today is if there is a counter claim to his doc role. I figure if there is a real doc out there they will claim and we can all pile on Andrew and lynch us a scum, OR he flips doc and we have a scum lynch for the next day. Talking about it and clogging up the thread with mounds of posts about it isn't helpful to our cause. I don't care who Andrew protected last night because in either situation we are in it doesn't matter, he can't confirm anyone town. Really it helps the scum because if he didn't protect the cop they find out who is his towniest player.

We need to stop talking set up and start talking about who is scum and why.

[Sotty7]

Sotty7 finding I Am Innocent's and my NK and setup speculation scummy is really strange. However, as an IC, Sotty7-scum should not be objecting, as that would go against the IC teaching condition; therefore, it's just odd. However, tunneling on Equinox and then looking for her partner... that I need to look into. I haven't flipped yet, and the day isn't over; speculation of scum pairs is just that -- speculation. IMO, not useful... but that opinion may be due to me knowing that any pair with Equinox in it is wrong. >_>

Can you clear this up for me.

1] Teaching condition? It is widely accepted though out the site that set up speculation is scummy. So what are you talking about here?
2] How can I tunnel on you AND look for your partner at the same time?
3] Where have I been talking about scum pairs, or is that you talking about scum pairs? If you are talking about my first post, I was listing my top suspects. I kinda do that. I have looked to link you with anyone yet.

[Equinox]

The accusation of tunneling came out of an emotional spur of the moment. Point taken that you're not tunneling, since you're also looking at other players as well.

Right now I'm thinking Equinox and maybe Skill as scum, if not Skill then I could see Nom as her partner.

...looked like setting up scum pairs to me.

I don't see anyone even remotely suggesting an andrew94 lynch. Not sure why you're focused on that.

1] Teaching condition? It is widely accepted though out the site that set up speculation is scummy. So what are you talking about here?

Interesting. I've never had an objection to doing setup analysis. You're the first for me.

[I Am Innocent]

IAI was one of my most townie players yesterday, but his continued insitance on talking set up is making me look his way. This by very definition

is not tunneling

.

Set up analysis is scummy because it is not scum hunting, it gives scum a chance to hide and look like they are doing something worthwhile when they are not. Scum already

know

the set up. This is a waste of the towns time and is a perfect way for the scum to distract us from hunting them.

I think set up analysis

early in a day is not scummy

. It sets the parameters on who one should or should not vote for, which could have a big impact on the number of scum we are able to lynch. Especially if you think Andrew may be scum which I do.

We have three confirmed townies who voted for Andrew: Memnon, Ren and imkingdavid. Andrew was asking about power roles early on to Ren. He claimed at L-2. If there are two goons, he would have had a pretty good idea no CC was coming as the Cop already came forward.

I would still like to officially hear from Skill, ToG, and NDP on whether they are the Doctor or not. No popcorn needed, just come forward please

.

If there is no CC, I agree Andrew is off limits today. But note if Andrew is off limits today and he is scum, we now have a 1 in 6 chance of hitting the other one.

[Equinox]

Okay. I've been thinking about this... and I'm just going to throw this massive stream of thought out here for the sake of transparency. >_>

The problem I seem to be having here is a refusal to commit to my suspicions. Namely, I suspect someone, and then I just drop it and then not do anything about it. From what I remember of my reread, what I was trying to do was to find slips or scummy things people may have said, yet whatever I found was just easily rebutted. So, what I'm thinking right now is I should switch tactics. If I don't get scum reads off anyone, I'll just play with process of elimination and go after my null reads. Luckily for me, I actually committed to my town reads, even if I never actually listed them, and the last two flips have narrowed down the player list enough that I have half and half to work with. Yippee.

The real meat of this post:

NomDePlume had stances early in the game, but that pretty much vanished during the latter part of Day 1. This may have been due to things in real-life, but I'd like to hear more from NDP about the circumstances around the imkingdavid lynch, the NK, and the speculation we just had at the start of the day.

The people who have posted in this thread so far have posted their stances on things, with the exception of andrew94 and ToG. ToG, thoughts on the same things I asked NDP?

andrew94, why did you become upset when we asked you who you protected?

[andrew94]

The real meat of this post:

NomDePlume had stances early in the game, but that pretty much vanished during the latter part of Day 1. This may have been due to things in real-life, but I'd like to hear more from NDP about the circumstances around the imkingdavid lynch, the NK, and the speculation we just had at the start of the day.

The people who have posted in this thread so far have posted their stances on things, with the exception of andrew94 and ToG. ToG, thoughts on the same things I asked NDP?

andrew94, why did you become upset when we asked you who you protected?

so you attacked him, unvoted and now attacking him again?
i have posted my stance- you and ren aka imkingdavid
i didnt become upset? i merely said 'happy now?'

[Equinox]

...

i have posted my stance- you and ren aka imkingdavid

-facepalm-

I'm at the limit of my patience.

imkingdavid flipped town; the moderator told us that much. I don't count that as a stance for Day 2.

i didnt become upset? i merely said 'happy now?'

The "Happy now?" made it look like you were upset.

You're not my suspect for the moment, so I'm not going to ask further about that.

[andrew94]

but you ARE my suspect still?

[Equinox]

but you ARE my suspect still?

Fine. Point taken.

There are two scum, though, so I wouldn't be the only one.

so you attacked him, unvoted and now attacking him again?

The last time I attacked NomDePlume, I did it based on something he said that I felt was scummy. His rebuttal was solid, so I dropped the case.

This time I am attacking NomDePlume based on something else. I may have to drop the case again and start over if NDP is AWOL, though... >_o

[ToG]

@all
Sorry for not participating that much in the last few days. Didn't found the time to do a full reread and post my thoughts.

@imkingdavid lynch
Was never convinced that IKid or Ren is Scum. But I knew that there has to be a lynch therefore I did never argue against a lynch as this would have only cost time that was not available on day one.

@the NK
May sound odd but I am pretty happy with this kill. If the Scum would not have killed him I would have started to attack him.

@the speculation we just had at the start of the day
I think that a setup speculation is pretty useless and a player should never be lynched on any setup speculations. I don't find it scummy or townie only useless.

@My own speculations about the setup
I think there are at the moment 3 different possibilities.
1. Andrew94 is the doc blocked by the scum role blocker.
2. Andrew94 is scum knowing that there will be only one power role as there is no role blocker. Therefore they had to lynch the cop.
3. Andrew94 is vanilla only trying to stop his lynch by claiming a power role.

Everything is possible and I don't think that we should speculate more into this.

As it is now I don't think anyone will cc andrew94 and I also think that his doc status should not protect him any longer. I would prefer it if we could just forget about the hole setup and start to look for scum.

@Equinox
You told me day 1 that you would start looking into mb53s and my play a little bit more. As I do now not have any clear scum targets I would be happy to defend either his or my play.

@Andrew94

I protected memnon at night happy?

i didnt become upset? i merely said 'happy now?'

I agree here with Equinox, while I still think that the setup speculation is useless and only spamming the thread full you reaction to this hole thing is pretty interesting as you clearly become upset imho about answering a question.

So what annoyed you about this question ?
Or else if you insist that you were not annoyed by it why did you not answer this question the first time ?
Or else if you answer my previous question by stating that your target is obvious: You as the only player in this game that we know about that knows the hole setup, what do you think is the reason for scum to kill memnon over you ?

@Claim
Not doc

@Popcorn
Ndp please claim

[inHimshallibe]

Vote Count - Day 2, Deadline: July 14, after I get home from drafting. (11:59 CST)

7 alive; 4 to lynch

Equinox (1) - Sotty7
Skill006 (1) - Equinox

Not voting (5) - andrew94, I Am Innocent, NomDePlume, Skill006, ToG

Prods have gone out to: NomDePlume

[Skill006]

I'm not the doctor. Just confirming that.

I usually don't speculate because I feel like I might mess something up in my speculating, and it gets to be a bit tiresome to do that, though I usually don't have a problem with the speculating (even though sotty does bring up some good points.

Right now I'm thinking Equinox and maybe Skill as scum, if not Skill then I could see Nom as her partner.

...looked like setting up scum pairs to me.

I wouldn't agree with that accusation, but I'll let sotty defend herself.

@IAI Why do you think andrew is scum?

[I Am Innocent]

@IAI Why do you think andrew is scum?

We have three confirmed townies who voted for Andrew: Memnon, Ren and imkingdavid. Andrew was asking about power roles early on to Ren. He claimed at L-2. If there are two goons, he would have had a pretty good idea no CC was coming as the Cop already came forward.

.

[Skill006]

Ah. Sorry, must've missed that somehow >.>

[andrew94]

how am i supposed to know how wolves operate, in my previo9us games, the doc obs protects the cop so he gets 1 check at least? i just thought that was pretty obvious guess not