A Clash of Kings - A Divided Kingdom

[LimMePls]

FOS: Richard

I want evidence to prove he's town.

o.O

Claim: Renly Baratheon

I am Robert's youngest brother. I have decided to be King, but their are currently bigger problems to attend to.

If I die,

Ser Loras

is able to perform one kill to attemp to avenge me. Therefore, I know Ser Loras is in the game. However, I do not know who (s)he is and what alignment they are. If Ser Loras dies before I do, nothing happens upon my death.

Underlined for the reading impaired.

Julienvonwolfe -

Ser Loras Tyrell

-

Innocent Aligned

- Triggered Vengeful Townie - Poisoned

What more evidence do you want?

HOS: CSL

This game is almost too easy. One of dana/SSBF/CSL need lynching (preferably SSBF, but I'll take what I can get), and if we still have a vig he should kill from the remainders.

[I doubt it]

FOS: Richard

I want evidence to prove he's town.

o.O

The way I read CSL's post, "he" refers to SSBF. See full quote:

Wait...WHAT? SSBF is not 100% town. Lern2read.

FOS: Richard

I want evidence to prove he's town. I don't get it, you are scum. You have the rest of Day 2. Go.

Regardless, as you say Richard is town and CSL FoSing him is pointless.

[Benmage]

Workin on a catchup/reread from my last post on pg 23...hence the delay.

[LimMePls]

The way I read CSL's post, "he" refers to SSBF. See full quote:

Oh, that makes a bit more sense. Still stupid. Why would you FOS someone to ask them a question? Why wouldn't you just ask it?

[MacavityLock]

What town tells did you see, Mac?

First, let me link you to the AGoT game I was referring to. Specifically, examine the Mar 20-24 time period. In that game, both Raiv and I were town, but I very much thought he was scum. I was wrong. His play in this game reminded me a lot of that Mar 20-24 implosion.

Second, I saw the same thing that DethHydra did in that Raiv's string of 3 posts here was very likely a town tell. In that first post, scum don't generally offer thenselves up for lynch like that. (Unless, of course, he named two scum-buddies in dana and Richard, in which case he just gave up two of his scum-buddies.) The second post is not only a mea culpa, but also is a post declaring his apathy. And the last is just so out of the blue going in a different direction that it's ridiculous. I generally think that scum try to be more careful than that.

On another note, that third post was

Super smash goes out of his way to appear townie which makes him scummy.

FoS:SupersmashBrosfan

which I think strengthens the SSBF case.

----

Upon complete read of Miku, he did go hard at Raiv early on the wagon. Given the way he went about it, in addition to the "thinks it's a good idea to lynch a townie" tell, I could definitely see it as bussing. There are a couple of times where he went out of his way to ensure that the full court press was on Raiv, which I think can be a tell on Day 1 especially. Then he backed off with the claim. I do not agree that a vig claim makes you off-limits, which is why I examined the wagons and vote-counts in the way that I did.

Mina, I don't think it's a couple of arbitrary points in time; it's when Raiv went from being a viable lynch to when he no longer was. When I have some time, I'm going to look closer at a few hours before and after that to be sure I'm not missing anything.

Now all that said, Miku's early stuff would definitely be a harder bus than I'd expect to see from someone early in their Mafia career. Miku, do you have any completed games here? Any on other forums?

@MacavityLock:

Why do you think I was wishy-washy towards Raivann? I had been pushing his wagon hardest of all, and only lessened any pressure on him due to his claim, yet maintained a position that just because someone claims a power role, they should not get a free pass.

And yet you unvoted Raiv, giving him a pass, at least for the day.

I think "wishy-washy" isn't the right phrase for what I mean. What I mean is that it looks to me like you're making the classic "I'm not voting for you, but I'm keeping my eye on you" scum tell.

What makes my vote change anymore "damning" than your own? At least I provided some reasoning behind my vote move beyond "I'm hopping on this wagon unless folks wanna lynch someone else I don't like."

First, I didn't unvote Raiv. Second, of the viable bandwagons at that point, CMAR was the one I favored. I had previously pointed out that I had a problem with the immediate unvote. Also, your reasoning for your CMAR vote was "Look at those cases other people have made", so don't try to make it out like your vote there was any better than mine.

[Mikujin]

Now all that said, Miku's early stuff would definitely be a harder bus than I'd expect to see from someone early in their Mafia career. Miku, do you have any completed games here? Any on other forums?

I'm currently participating in two games here, one newbie game and this game. From what I gather, it's bad form to link an active game, so I can't do that for you.

Don't have any other games played elsewhere; a friend told me about the game, pointed me here, and that's my mafia career in a nutshell.

[hasdgfas]

Workin on a catchup/reread from my last post on pg 23...hence the delay.

I almost forgot you were in the game. Please come with good stuff.

[xvart]

Playing catchup here, so sorry if I'm redundant in some areas. First, though, I'm happy to see more people are realizing the danakillsu scum idea. I felt like I was taking crazy pills yesterday hammering away on that case. I agree with everything that has been added to that case since the start of day.

Finally, the way that dana has done nothing but scream "NO U! U MISREP ME! YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE! LALALA" ever since I started my case on him just makes my case stronger.

And this is exactly what he was doing D1 when I was grilling him.

Vote: danakillsu

The fact that we managed to get rid of a Mafia Godfather is fantastic news for the town.

HI THERE MR SCUM HOW IS YOUR BLATANT SCUMTELL TODAY?

lol. Agreed. It is so obvious that having a NK'ed godfather is good news; anyone that needs to announce that is just looking for town points.

There is nothing, and I repeat, nothing wrong with the death of a Mafia Godfather. As a matter of fact, town should be glad that we have a Godfather dead. So tell me, what is so wrong about that quote you've made?

Your over the top response is mildly concerning, too. The fact that you are dissecting your own statement into a multi-facet counter argument is scummy, like you need to try extra hard to make everyone realize that it isn't scummy to be glad a godfather is dead; especially when there is no immediate follow up or even an attempt to root out some of those connections. I would think a town person would be more interested in proving their observation than wasting time defending

how town

the original claim was.

Also, I like the what IDI is saying here regarding SSBF.

My reason for defending Benmage was not because I thought Benmage was pro-town, but because I at the time thought I doubt it's case was pretty poor.

I think I asked this before but I don't remember the answer. I'll look back later after I'm caught up, but did you think IDI was scummy? Do you always defend people who aren't

necessarily town

when pretty poor cases are presented?

The reason for that Random Vote was because he played very well as a scum in Newbie 934. That vote was to rest assure I would not overlook him again. I'm glad I didn't, as he did flip scum.

More patting on the back. How does an RVS vote signify that you won't overlook him again? Did you think Raivaan would take that vote seriously as "OMG I better watch out! SSBF has outted me!"

Overall:

Give me

one

good reason to keep him around. Just

one

.

Because he is not you or danakillsu?

He has been scummy all over the place and he needs to die ToDay. Unless vezokpiraka improve his game Day 2, this stance will stay.

So you believe that Vezo can still redeem himself? I never understand it when people say that someone has been sooo scummy all over the place but that might change depending on future play.

I think SSBF is town (gut), though the case is convincing (head).

Just like you thought Raivaan was town?

Also, before Raivann's flip, your read on dana was town. So town in fact that you stated your town read on dana in no fewer than

nine

posts yesterday.

And, I specifically asked on at least three separate occasions where Drippereth town read was coming from, all of which were ignored. My thinking, because there was no evidence to support a dana-town read and trying to concoct a town case on dana would look

super

scummy and contrived.

We're working on Percy case but it probs won't be up for a few days.

Working on a Percy case because you don't want to contribute to the cases on your scumpals?

Has

anyone

read my case on CSL? Anyone at all? It's not just a lurker lynch. It's a lot like the case on danakillsu, except my wagon has butterflies and rainbows!

Yes, and I agree with you. I think your records here about the wagons being in a dead heat and the backpeddling is the most telling. Unfortunately, we only have one lynch and I am more convinced that danakillsu and SSBF are scum than CSL, so that is where my vote is staying; but this is definitely worth pressing.

CSL

- any response to any of Mina's posts?

At this point, I'll vote to lynch danakillsu or SSBF. Coming in a close second: CSL. Needs more pressure: Drippereth.

xvart.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Richard is still scum, Mina sure seems scared to leave me alive. Percy seems to always wanna lynch me.

One of these three is scum.

Richard's conf town, you're awesomely town, so we're leaning Percy.

I really don't like these quotes. Both quotes sounds like contradictions of each other. Even if they aren't, I feel like those town reads on RichardGHP and Mina are basically due to pressure made by Mina. You didn't even attempt to make a solid counter-attack on her.

---

@SSBF: Don't call someone out for not delivering on promised content when you say things like

I will start reading once Night hits and will tell of my suspects on my first post of Day 2.

...or should I assume that you only have one suspect?

I had other suspects at the very beginning of Day 2, but at the time, vezokpiraka was the only person with a solidified scum read from me. CSL is also scummy, but with the cases being formed on him Day 2, I eventually got a solidified scum read on CSL.

Hey look, SSBF wants to change the subject from his Vezo "case" to Dripp and CSL.

I definently have not forgotten about vezokpiraka at all. Do you seriously not want me to focus on other suspects? I have something else more important in this game that I am working on for this game then to argue with you about vezokpiraka for now.

but did you think IDI was scummy?

At the time yes I did find I doubt it scummy. I currently have a null read from him.

Do you always defend people who aren't necessarily town when pretty poor cases are presented?

No I do not. To be honest, I originally thought it was worth defending a town read that I originally had a scummy read on that I thought made a bad case on Benmage. I am currently trying to recitify the problem completely.

More patting on the back. How does an RVS vote signify that you won't overlook him again? Did you think Raivaan would take that vote seriously as "OMG I better watch out! SSBF has outted me!"

I should clarify that my random vote was geared toward Deer. I've played a couple of games with him and read a few other games he was in and Deer is a very good player, both for town and scum. In Newbie 934 and Mini 955, Deer managed to manipulate the town easily and led scum to a perfect win in both games.

The point is that, Deer is a very good player, both as scum and as town, so I wouldn't overlook him again.

As for your second question, I honestly doubt he would. Given his experience on the site, he should know the in's and out's of Mafia a lot better then newbies here.

So you believe that Vezo can still redeem himself? I never understand it when people say that someone has been sooo scummy all over the place but that might change depending on future play.

Yes I can. Just because I think that Vezokpiraka has been very scummy doesn't mean that he will remain auto-scum for the rest of the game. Just because I'm serious with my suspicion doesn't mean that nothing can possibly change it, barring someone seriously saying that they're scum.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

In addition, SSBF looks like he has some pretty good Raiv ties: See his HoS on Raiv (Jun 14) and subsequent bussing vote (Jun 22). Most of his post re: Raiv were "Raiv is scummy because he's scummy," without good reasoning.

It tends to make me awhile before I change my vote to someone. As we go further into the game, my reads tends to move around a lot less and I become more satisified with them. I also have done some pushing in Raivann's bandwagon, so I didn't simply vote him the moment I became suspicious of the person.

Pleading a lack of time, whilst still having enough time to do a complete ISO of vezok, is bizarre.

I never really pleaded that I didn't have time to make a vezokpiraka case. The reason why you may assume that is because it was late when the game started Day 2. IIRC, the case took around three hours to do the next day. In my region, it was 10:41 PM when I made my first post into Day 2. If I had started my case immediately after that, it would be around 2:00 AM. Please note that we are both in different regions (You live in Australia, I live in the central part of the U.S.A.), so I would not have time to make a case on vezokpiraka as I usually go to bed around midnight in my region.

He has acknowledged the need to look into things such as the Raivann connection and commenting on the dana case, but does not use the critical pieces of information we have today (the flips) when forming his case against vezok.

Now the reason why I didn't use the flip is because while he may not be part of the Greatjoy alignment, I do still think that he could very well be scum in another alignment. If we were to kill him eventually and if he flipped scum, he would reveal information for the town in a good way. For example, LynchMePls's chainsaw defense where he defended vezokpiraka's action while attacking my case against him

[Eddard Stark]

Vote count 2.4: The

"The dead are likely dull fellows, full of tedious complaints"

votecount

.

Lynch Count

Vezokpiraka (1) -

Super Smash Bros. Fan

Danakillsu (6) -

Percy, Thor665, Mikujin, Axelrod, RichardGHP, xvart

CSL (2) -

Percy, Mina

Super Smash Bros. Fan (4) -

hasdgfas, I Doubt it, LynchMePls, Unsight

Mikujin (1) -

MacavityLock

MacavityLock (1) -

Locke Lamora

Not voting to Lynch (8) -

Kinetic, MagnaofIllusion, CSL, Vezokpiraka, Rifka Vivieka, Danakillsu, Benmage, Drippereth

With 22 alive it takes 12 votes to lynch.
The deadline for today's lynch is

10:00pm (CDT) on Sunday the 18th of July

. You can view a countdown to the deadline

here

.

[Locke Lamora]

What town tells did you see, Mac?

First, let me link you to the AGoT game I was referring to. Specifically, examine the Mar 20-24 time period. In that game, both Raiv and I were town, but I very much thought he was scum. I was wrong. His play in this game reminded me a lot of that Mar 20-24 implosion.

Second, I saw the same thing that DethHydra did in that Raiv's string of 3 posts here was very likely a town tell. In that first post, scum don't generally offer thenselves up for lynch like that. (Unless, of course, he named two scum-buddies in dana and Richard, in which case he just gave up two of his scum-buddies.) The second post is not only a mea culpa, but also is a post declaring his apathy. And the last is just so out of the blue going in a different direction that it's ridiculous. I generally think that scum try to be more careful than that.

On another note, that third post was

Super smash goes out of his way to appear townie which makes him scummy.

FoS:SupersmashBrosfan

which I think strengthens the SSBF case.

First of all, I was in that game too (although as Sansa, I was week and feeble and didn't offer anything useful) and I did think back to it when Raivann started playing terribly. Then I thought 'hey, this is just a good excuse for Raivann to play terribly and not get lynched'. As you point out, that was a very time-specific implosion in the first game. It's not as though it's his town meta. This is basically starting down the road of Raivann's playing too badly to be scum...

...which continues in your second point. Scum might not usually offer themselves up for lynch, although I think it's pretty common in an AtE-way. The general impression that I get of your read here is not that Raivann has done anything pro-town in the slightest, but that he's failing so spectacularly to be careful scum, there's no way he could actually be scum.

Given your reference back to the first ASOIAF game, I'm curious as to why you didn't ask Mina (or myself, although it looks like you just forgot I was in that game, understandably!) more about her Raivann vote, given that she was in that game too. If you thought it was so similar to his implosion there, why weren't you more interested in her motives here when you knew that she witnessed the same implosion?

[LimMePls]

This game is in serious need of action.

Those not voting for SSBF or Danakillsu need to post and say why they aren't, or make a very convincing argument for why they're voting who they are. Those that aren't voting at all even more so. (Dripp I'm looking at you).

@Mina: I understand your CSL case, I think it has a lot of merit, and I know you don't want us to forget it. That said, CSL is looking very unlikely to be the lynch right now. Why not help us and get behind dana or SSBF?

In an effort to get some team cohesion going, I'm going to

Unvote
Vote: danakillsu
HOS: SSBF

[hasdgfas]

@Mina: I understand your CSL case, I think it has a lot of merit, and I know you don't want us to forget it. That said, CSL is looking very unlikely to be the lynch right now. Why not help us and get behind dana or SSBF?

Mostly this. It's almost definitely not happening today, because I think SSBF is much worse, but if that breaks down for some reason, I'll gladly look closer at CSL. SSBF is just so incredibly scummy right now it's insane.

[Eddard Stark]

Checking who needs a prod and prodding them now

Axelrod and MagnaofIllusion are the only ones in need of a prod as far as I can tell (Vezok is V/La), since their last posts were on Tuesday. Will send them a prod now.

[Kinetic]

I'm reading up and catching up right now, so if I'm eligible for a prod don't worry about it.

[Kinetic]

Ooooo I've got a pretty green name now.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Prod pre-received. Work and Marathon Games have really sapped my ability to do a re-read today.

I'll regroup this weekend and try to have my thoughts coordinated by Tuesday.

[danakillsu]

Alright, I don't have time to scumhunt atm, so I'll just say what I think about the case on me. The case on me boils down to the fact that I did not make clear enough that I found Raivann scummy until pressed for my opinion on him. And since Raivann is apparently scum, people are saying I must be his scumbuddy. That's a pretty poor case. I can't disprove that these things happened, because I was unclear. But I certainly didn't contradict myself in reference to him, I just didn't express my opinion of him until asked. I don't really see how I have to be his scumbuddy just because I didn't say much about him, and then said he was scummy. That just happens all the time.

[CSL]

OOOOOOOOO! I see post numbers now!

Vote me all you want. I usually get lynched all the time, actually.

But, I want to do this...

Vote: SSBF
HoS: danakillsu

[Axelrod]

Alright, I don't have time to scumhunt atm, so I'll just say what I think about the case on me. The case on me boils down to the fact that I did not make clear enough that I found Raivann scummy until pressed for my opinion on him. And since Raivann is apparently scum, people are saying I must be his scumbuddy. That's a pretty poor case. I can't disprove that these things happened, because I was unclear. But I certainly didn't contradict myself in reference to him, I just didn't express my opinion of him until asked. I don't really see how I have to be his scumbuddy just because I didn't say much about him, and then said he was scummy. That just happens all the time.

It's like this:

Dana: Hey, that Kleedrac/Budja sure is scummy.
(People vote for Raivann)
Dana: Why are you people voting for Raivann?
(more votes)
Dana: If people think Raivann and Kleedrac are equally scummy, you really ought to vote for Kleedrac
(criticism)
Dana: Hey, I thought Raivann was scummy too!

[CSL]

Honestly, I'm willing to flip my vote to dana if deadline lingers near.

[hasdgfas]

Vote me all you want. I usually get lynched all the time, actually.

-_-
Have you thought that might mean you need to change something about your play?

[CSL]

Maybe. I'm trying something new every game.

[Rifka Viveka]

I don't really see how I have to be his scumbuddy just because I didn't say much about him, and then said he was scummy. That just happens all the time.

This almost looks like the ''you caught me for the wrong reasons rant'' tell.

Ill put down a

vote:SSBF

as per earlier reasons