Mini 988 - Small Town Mafia GAME OVER

[Cuetlachtli]

NOTE: DavidParker has offered to replace in for foobert.

I can understand why you would think Concerned bussed Butters. Why do you think foobert (DavidParker) bussed Butters?

[Nachomamma8]

@Cuet:
It's mostly a matter of PoE.

Zach is town for reasons said earlier.
SSBF is town because A) he's seems to believe in the case he's posting, plus the reasons why Zach is town.
Jason is town because Butterfly attacked him.
You are town because I just got that feeling.
David I is town because the mod told us so.

I wouldn't be surprised if foobert was bussing because he really didn't post the entire day, and DavisParker hasn't been posting since he's replaced in, which is suspicious (especially considering he didn't have to read the game again or anything).

[Zachrulez]

Anyways....hey Zach, did you consider this post before you hammered Butters?

Butterfly post your reads on EVERYBODY before you are hammered. k thx.

Conceivably he should have done that long before you posted...

... and I didn't hammer immediately after that anyway. I waited until around the time that Butterfly seemed to be posting during the day... but he never posted. He also never reacted very positively to people asking him for reads or suspicions anyway, it was like pulling teeth. Is there a reason for this inquiry? Is there a reason this inquiry doesn't apply to Exilon? (Who attempted to hammer almost right after I did.)

[Cuetlachtli]

Anyways....hey Zach, did you consider this post before you hammered Butters?

Butterfly post your reads on EVERYBODY before you are hammered. k thx.

Conceivably he should have done that long before you posted...

... and I didn't hammer immediately after that anyway. I waited until around the time that Butterfly seemed to be posting during the day... but he never posted. He also never reacted very positively to people asking him for reads or suspicions anyway, it was like pulling teeth. Is there a reason for this inquiry? Is there a reason this inquiry doesn't apply to Exilon? (Who attempted to hammer almost right after I did.)

Well we had a couple days before the deadline. You hammered Butters on Tuesday or Wednesday and the deadline was that Saturday. I just thought it was slightly scummy that you didn't give him a chance to respond to me. It is scummy because, hypothetically, scum-Zach wouldn't want newb-scum Butters to give reads right before his imminent death because he might slip up in some way, shape, or form. I thought I would bring this up since you are adamant that you don't want to lynch Ox today, a player I find very scummy. Would scum-Zach have much incentive to double buss his scum partners with potentially 8 townies remaining? I don't think so. I also want to add that when we were scum partners in that one newbie game, you started to distance me on Day 1 and ultimately tried to buss me on Day 2. Meta says that Zach likes to buss when he is scum.

Does this mean that Zach is scum? No. But it serves as a "red flag" and I think it is beneficial for the town to know moving forward.

[Zachrulez]

Anyways....hey Zach, did you consider this post before you hammered Butters?

Butterfly post your reads on EVERYBODY before you are hammered. k thx.

Conceivably he should have done that long before you posted...

... and I didn't hammer immediately after that anyway. I waited until around the time that Butterfly seemed to be posting during the day... but he never posted. He also never reacted very positively to people asking him for reads or suspicions anyway, it was like pulling teeth. Is there a reason for this inquiry? Is there a reason this inquiry doesn't apply to Exilon? (Who attempted to hammer almost right after I did.)

Well we had a couple days before the deadline. You hammered Butters on Tuesday or Wednesday and the deadline was that Saturday. I just thought it was slightly scummy that you didn't give him a chance to respond to me. It is scummy because, hypothetically, scum-Zach wouldn't want newb-scum Butters to give reads right before his imminent death because he might slip up in some way, shape, or form. I thought I would bring this up since you are adamant that you don't want to lynch Ox today, a player I find very scummy. Would scum-Zach have much incentive to double buss his scum partners with potentially 8 townies remaining? I don't think so. I also want to add that when we were scum partners in that one newbie game, you started to distance me on Day 1 and ultimately tried to buss me on Day 2. Meta says that Zach likes to buss when he is scum.

Does this mean that Zach is scum? No. But it serves as a "red flag" and I think it is beneficial for the town to know moving forward.

Well reasoned hammers aren't scummy. In the position he was in, he knew he was almost certainly being lynched and he knew what he was going to flip, so I don't think it was that likely he was going to reply to your request for reads anyway. As it was, I didn't rush the hammer at all. Like I said, I waited through the morning, as that was the usual time of day he usually posted, so if he found it imperative to reply to your request, I expect he would have done so then. When he didn't, and the day dragged through lunchtime, I decided that it was time to lay down the hammer. (I don't believe in the argument for waiting till right before the deadline to hammer.)

I think you're being paranoid. (In a pro-town way.) I also submit that if I was scum and worried about Butterfly slipping up and giving the town info, I was capable of hammering him well before I actually did.

[Zachrulez]

As for 0x. You make some interesting points about him. I just don't feel as strongly about your conclusion of him as you do.

I also simply find Nacho scummier. Him voting me in direct defense of butterfly is an extremely scummy action, and he's done relatively little aside from this. On top of those raised points, Nacho simply isn't being as pro-active as I would expect him to be. I see it as a strong sign that he has a scum alignment.

[DavidParker]

Hey sorry, been busy yesterday, posting now.

A lot of useless back and forth between ox and zach lately. Read through it and all, i don't feel either has slipped up majorly there.

I am getting a very strong scum read from nacho, especially the way he deals with a few people voting on him, he seems to be overly worrying and overreacting to a bit of pressure.

Vote: Nacho

[jasonT1981]

Even if they are exceptions, the point is that they do happen.

I don't know about you, but I play Mafia by the rules, not the exceptions.

Yes, yes they would. VI's not like The Butterfly at least put some effort toward playing the game. They actually care about the game and is willing to help find scum. I saw no motivation in The Butterfly's play to scum hunt, he has done almost nothing in this game. This is the worst kind of VI's in this game, so much that they are scummy.

...no. Just... no.

Yes, he did post in Mini 992 and Newbie 966 (You're hosting that game, how could you not know?).

If only you realized what I was trying to say here...

If he was town, prehaps we could have analyzed his suspects (JasonT1981 and Antonio) and if we were lucky enough, build a case off them.

You would trust Butterfly's reads if he was town?:

You questioned me on if The Butterfly sounded like a veteren and I responded. That question sounds similar to talking about his grammar. If that is the case, how is my post off-topic while yours isn't?

You said:
Butterfly could be asneaky veteran mafia player.
I said: Does {Link} sound like a veteran to you?
You said: No, but grammar should be the least of his worries. I agree that he has got to improve on his game, but in Mafia, we should be more concerned about his play, not his grammer.

Chainsaw defenese is stronger then bussing because of this:

Chainsaw defense is a stronger tell when a mafia member isn't so far gone. It was apparent that he wasn't going to improve (thus, he wasn't going to survive long), so why would I incriminate myself just to save him for one more day?

That doesn't mean we can't use that as evidence, so don't make excuses.

YOU VOTED SOMEONE BECAUSE OF THEIR AVATAR, MEANING YOU'RE OPPORTUNISTIC SCUM. AND DONT SAY THAT IT WAS THE RVS EITHER, OR OTHERWISE YOU'RE JUST MAKING EXCUSES.


For now,

Vote: Zac hrulez

Until he actually explains why I'm scum.

This makes me laugh so much... goes the entire post without mentioning Zach, then votes Zach... with the BS reason his vote will stay until Zach explains why he (Nacho) is scum. No actual scum hunting reason, but the reason of OMG you think I am scum... why? I'm voting you until you tell me.

Ironically, next post he unvotes citing Zach as town

Zach is town for reasons said earlier.
SSBF is town because A) he's seems to believe in the case he's posting, plus the reasons why Zach is town.
Jason is town because Butterfly attacked him.
You are town because I just got that feeling.
David I is town because the mod told us so.
.

Love how he declares everyone here town... how would he know everyone is town? well, that would be cause he isnt.

thats 5 town according to him, DP was confirmed non scum in the night, thats 6 town... really narrows the odds on scum eh?

Yea, Nacho is scum!

That is L-1 I believe.... Nacho, Claim time!

[jasonT1981]

bah,

vote: Nacho

I swore I typed that.. ah well, now its L-1

[jasonT1981]

oh, by DP confirmed non scum in the night, I meant DP Version 1. But going by all those Nacho declared as town... the math is not looking good on him right now.

[jasonT1981]

I also see no issue with Zachs hammer BTW.... Butterfly had many chances to try and help the town and failed on each occasion to provide anything helpful, the deadline was something like only 3 days away.

The hammer was justifiable.

[lobstermania]

Day Two Vote Count #3

(as of post # 511)

Cuetlachtli - [0]

Exilon - [0]

Zachrulez - [0]

jasonT1981 - [0]

0x1de - [3]

Exilon, Cuetlachtli, Nachomamma8

Nachomamma8 - [5]

Zachrulez, Super Smash Bros. Fan, 0x1de, DavidParker, jasonT1981

Super Smash Bros. Fan - [0]

DavidParker - [0]

Concerned - [0]

Antonio - [1]

Concerned

Not Voting - [1]

Antonio
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch....

Still searching for an Antonio replacement. Sorry for the delay....

[Cuetlachtli]

I also see no issue with Zachs hammer BTW.... Butterfly had many chances to try and help the town and failed on each occasion to provide anything helpful, the deadline was something like only 3 days away.

The hammer was justifiable.

3 days is a long time in this particular game. Anyways, I don't think Zach's hammer was all that scummy, but we should keep it in mind if Nacho flips town and Ox flips scum.

That said, I am willing to hammer Nacho once he claims. Nacho please give detailed reads of every player along with your role claim.

[Concerned]

Ok I'm back, before I do anything I'd like to

unvote

I admit I was stretching at the time with the antonio vote, I didn't think Nacho was scum and I felt like I needed to provide an alternative.

I'd firstly like to say I won't be on the nacho wagon, I honestly interpret how he acted with regards to butters, as town, when taken in the context of him being a fairly experienced player.

I also agree with a lot of things he's been saying and I think most of SSBF's points agaisnt him are a lot of rubbish (although it doesn't

necessarily

mean SSBF is scum).

So I interpret the case agaisnt nacho as being mostly based on his attitude towards butters, and since I don't agree with said behavior being scummy I don't agree with the case.

I also have strong town reads on Zach, Jason and Cuet.

Which leaves {Antonio, Exilon, Oxide, DavidParker and SSBF} and I feel like Butter's little comment about "Or maybe he's just a helpful townie" regarding exilon is a fairly reliable disclaimer pointing to Exilon being town.

So I'm confident that the remaining scum are within {Antonio, Oxide, DP and SSBF}.

[Zachrulez]

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... dard_Tells

See chainsaw defense. This is why I feel strongly that Nachomamma is the best lynch.

[Exilon]

Quick reply to the thread for something that stroke my gut:
Why am I absent from Nacho's readlist?
How the heck am I jumping to number 2 on Jason's top suspicions without as much as a post address from him Day 2? (correct me if I'm wrong).
Also it'd be great if Zach and Jason could both state thorougly why I am scummy.

Concerning Nacho's wagon:
My mind has changed a bit regarding Nacho as his defense has been getting a little better. It seems town-genuine so far (aside from a few points which are a little meh, many of which were addressed by SSBF already), which makes me much more content to have an Ox lynch instead of a Nacho lynch.

Also, comparing both player's defenses, Ox's is pretty much behind.

[jasonT1981]

I had suspicion on you, in day 1.

[Exilon]

How the heck am I jumping to number 2 on Jason's top suspicions without as much as a post address from him Day 2?

number 2 on Jason's top suspicions without as much as a post address from him Day 2?

suspicions without as much as a post address from him Day 2?

post address from him Day 2?

Day 2?

2

I hope you get the point. Also, your suspicion on Day 1? Remember that your suspicion "dropped" a bit when zach commented on it?
Guess who had the preceding post to yours when I magically appeared for the first time in your suspicion list, and what did that post contain.

JASON:
Why am I scum?

[Zachrulez]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=225

WHAT A SCOOP!

Does that reluctance to hammer look familiar?

[Exilon]

I totally knew you'd bring that up xD Though, sorry, bud, that's a null tell.

[DavidParker]

@ zach: Are you saying that you think nacho and exilon are both scum?

@exilon: Why is that a null tell? I think any player's "meta" is somewhat useful for seeing their play style as scum or town.

[DavidParker]

(I also don't like how you so casually dismiss it, rather than defend yourself appropriately)

[0x1de]

Does that reluctance to hammer look familiar?

Why has it taken so long for you to bring that up?

[0x1de]

I think that evidence someone is scum is the same thing as showing 'proof' under the assumption that a person is scum.
In any case, to have an evidence, you have to assume that a certain player is scum, for example.

They are presented in different ways, but they're both effective, in my opinion.

Ever heard of confirmation bias?

Yes, he did post in Mini 992 and Newbie 966 (You're hosting that game, how could you not know?).

If only you realized what I was trying to say here...

I don't know what you were trying to say either. Care to explain like a good little townie?

@Cuet:
It's mostly a matter of PoE.

Zach is town for reasons said earlier.
SSBF is town because A) he's seems to believe in the case he's posting, plus the reasons why Zach is town.
Jason is town because Butterfly attacked him.
You are town because I just got that feeling.
David I is town because the mod told us so.

I wouldn't be surprised if foobert was bussing because he really didn't post the entire day, and DavisParker hasn't been posting since he's replaced in, which is suspicious (especially considering he didn't have to read the game again or anything).

And why is Exilon town?

I feel like Butter's little comment about "Or maybe he's just a helpful townie" regarding exilon is a fairly reliable disclaimer pointing to Exilon being town.

That could be read either way so I really don't see how it's a reliable conclusion.

[Zachrulez]

Does that reluctance to hammer look familiar?

Why has it taken so long for you to bring that up?

You can't use meta from an ongoing game. That game just finished and I just got confirmation of his alignment in that game just yesterday.