Karma Mafia (Game Over!)

[Patrick]

Votecount

NickF227 (1) -- dybeck
dybeck (3) -- Javert, NickF227, boberz
Jahudo (1) -- Shanba
curiouskarmadog (1) -- Albert B. Rampage

Not voting: Espeonage, curiouskarmadog, Jahudo
9 alive, lynch at 5.

Deadline: 15th of July.

[boberz]

In which case he needs to answer some of our questions like for example what happens when he targets scum. Does he find out that they are 'vanilla'.

He should also explain properly why his claim has been so suspicious.

He should also explain why for the last day and a half he has harmed towns chances of winning.

---

Considering you think that who should we get rid of Esp?

[Espeonage]

Leaning towards Jahudo. This is going to be an imortant and long day though.

[boberz]

That is indeed true. But lets actually kill someone.

[Shanba]

In my very first post in the game I explained what my weak and strong roles did.

lynching the one person that can keep them from winning this game.

This statement is just so utterly ridiculous that I'm having great difficulty sorting out in my mind whether it's what you actually believe and your ego really is that large or whether this is an inspired piece of WIFOM by a panicking scum. And we've rendered your strong mode useless? YOU DID THAT BY CLAIMING IN THE FIRST PLACE. If you are so worried about dying that you're going to reveal the info that you have, why on earth would you go in for partial measures and only reveall half the info you had? That makes no sense.

And you still haven't answered the question that has been posed multiple times to you about whether or not you think that vanilla sucm would turn up vanilla to you. I could accept if you didn't know, or if you gave an answer, or if you told us you were asking the mod for clarification because it wasn't clear in your original role pm: something that acknowledges that you are a member of the town and have a duty to give us the info we need to work out whether or not to trust your info. Even if you die and turn up town, right now, this question hangs over and you can't be arsed to answer it.

If you do get round to answering, I now have a supplementary question. What would happen if you targeted a godfather?

Yeah. Jahudo has gone all quiet; it's possible he's hiding in the firestorm that this has created, though I don't think that's necessary as I was never able to build a big wagon on him yesterday anyway. This is one of those vote changes that I'm agonising about because I half feel it's just dybeck's stupidity; the problem is, I don't think dybeck is stupid. Nor have I ever seen any indication before this that he's a particularly arrogant person. Which makes me think he's panicking scum.

Unvote Vote: Dybeck

[boberz]

unvote

FOS shanba

Why L1? When only a post or two above Esp and I are musing about how the day needs more discussion?

Essentially if dybeck is town I am fairly certain you are scum, any thoughts?

[Shanba]

What discussion, exactly, are you hoping for? Why do you think I am scum if dybeck is town? L-1 doesn't cut off discussion, a hammer does, and besides which I am strongly of the belief that the quest for extra discussion is one of the major reasons that most games these days end in a lurkfest which only benefits scum. If there's a consensus that someone is scummy, why not just god damn lynch them instead of agonising over it for weeks?

The early days are for gathering information, the later days for analysing it.

[Javert]

1.)

... Jahudo has gone all quiet...

Jahudo is actually on V/LA until July 8.

2.)

dybeck, now you are claiming that your Weak Mode will somehow also be rendered useless if you are forced to claim it. I call bullshit. This was not even true for your claimed Strong mode.

Last I checked, most everybody in the game has role-claimed. Unless you think

everybody

who has claimed is telling the truth, then if you are Town your role still has theoretical uses. In fact, you

just

claimed that you investigated NickF227 last night to see if he might

not

be a Villager, like you thought he had claimed earlier. So if there are any scum who have claimed Villager, your Strong mode would still be able to catch them. Alternatively, if Mafia Goons get a "Vanilla" result (which is question you still have not answered), then a Mafia Goon who has claimed a power role would

also

be caught in a lie.

boberz also made a fine point: if you are Town and scum have to claim power roles in order to try and be consistent with your results, then we have an even

better

chance of catching them. Think about it: scum do not get caught tripping over Townie claims, but they sure

do

get caught tripping over power role claims.

On top of that, you just claimed to be role-blocked. If you are really being role-blocked by scum, then your Weak Mode won't catch scum because you won't get a result. Further, if your role is not functioning, then you also won't be able to get results.

You are either being stubborn for the sake of being stubborn, or you are lying scum. You might even just be stubborn scum with the ability you claim (but perhaps not with an actual Weak mode -- the rules technically only say that

Town

power roles have Strong and Weak modes). Right now, there is nothing in the way you have chosen to claim that leads me to believe you are Town. In fact, I think you are scum tripping over your own claim.

Your claim does not make sense with the flavor of the game (why get "Vanilla" results and not "Villager" results?), your results have largely been safe (again, the only claim that could have been contradicted was that boberz was "Vanilla"), you act like only you can focus the discussions in this game (trying to limit discussion to Shanba yesterday, and trying to skirt discussion away from you today), you have refused to answer the simple questions the entire Town has been asking you to answer (such as: (1) What is the difference between your Strong and Weak mode?; (2) Can a Goon be "Vanilla"?; (3) Why did you target who have targeted?), and now you are trying to sulk your way out of it.

If you are Town, please take a step back and realize the position we are in. Quit with the ego, and claim your role. If you are scum, please please please continue doing exactly what you are doing.

[Shanba]

Jahudo is actually on V/LA until July 8.

Oh, right, I'd forgotten about that.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Unvote, vote Shanba

[NickF227]

Unvote, vote Shanba

THANK YOU ABR AS INFORMATIVE AND HELPFUL AS EVER <3

No explanation?

[Albert B. Rampage]

putting dybek at L-1 so far from deadline

[boberz]

ABR are you a survivalist?

[Albert B. Rampage]

No. Villager.

[boberz]

Sorry, I meant are you somebody who sees winning as staying alive?

Or maybe I missed the sarcasm.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Still no.

[boberz]

Good.

in the style of ABR

unvote vote ABR

[dybeck]

Essentially if dybeck is town I am fairly certain you are scum, any thoughts?

This is probably the only combination that doesn't really hold true, if you think about it. If I'm town, then I don't know anything more about alignments than you do, and you now have all the information about Shanba that I do.

Only scum have more information about alignments than we do.

And for the avoidance of doubt, mafia goons are not "vanilla" in terms of my results - I checked this explicitly with the mod before the game started.

I'm now V/LA for a few days. Up to the mod whether he wants to replace me. I'd also be happy if he had a change of heart and allowed me to proxy my vote to Esp until I get back.

[boberz]

I wasnt using your info dybeck, in fact I have. So what result would you get if you found a mafia goon? (ie would it be eplicitly non-vanilla)

He will not let you proxy your vote(I hope), but mass wifom creator there for when you die and flip scum.

Please take a few moments before your VLA to answer all the questions. If not you will probably die and we will lose your info. It seems to me that we will have to kill you if you vla.

[boberz]

Ok the end of lurking everybody. Iv stopped so no excuses any more.

Javert, who are the two remaining scum?
Nick, when was your last comment with content? DO you still agree with it?
Shanba, how do you want to proceed, with dybeck gone among other things?
Esp, what do you think of a Nick, Shanba scum team?
CKD what do you think of my recent play?

[Javert]

Javert, who are the two remaining scum?

For starters, I think there are two or three scum remaining. Based on the nightkills, it looks like we still have a Mafia and a Serial Killer, so the only question is how many members of the Mafia are left.

I think the Serial Killer is dybeck. I stand by read from early on in the game that I do not think Sando was partnered with dybeck. This has led me to believe that dybeck was probably Town for most of the game, but upon seeing dybeck's claim I've obviously changed my mind. His claim reads like an attempt to preempt pressure before it was going to be turned to him. And actually, his stubbornness makes sense as a Serial Killer. He does not want to look

so

Town that he is likely to be nightkilled; but at the same time, he wants to look Town enough (or at least to post forcefully enough) to avoid being lynched. So he picks and chooses the questions asked of him, and tries to keep his claim vague enough so that it seems he is being very informative whilst he ultimately claims very little.

Note: It also occurred to me that curiouskarmadog just asked today if

anybody

had

any

information that might help verify Shanba's claim. Yet dybeck remained silent. Now he claims that he had information as early as Day Five.

As for the Mafia, the first candidate is still NickF227. I have never bought into the “scum's wet dream” argument because sometimes scummy players are just that -- scum. Although Sando voted NickF227 on Day Three, he only did so when he was already going down in flames -- I think it was probably a distancing vote. There is pretty much nothing that makes me think NickF227 is Town. The fact that he switched his vote from RichardGHP to bv310 has never hit that big a chord for me because he did so while pouting about it. I am not sure he even realized he was tipping the bandwagons. His confusion about Villager / Townie rubs me wrong, and so do his WIFOM defenses from earlier in the game.

My second candidate would obviously hinge on whether I am right about NickF227 to begin with. If I am right, then the natural partner seems to be Albert B. Rampage. If I am wrong about NickF227, then I think Albert B. Rampage is probably Town and that would leave some combination of {curiouskarmadog, Jahudo, Shanba}. Right now, I do not have a solid feeling on this scenario.

[NickF227]

It had been a while Boberz....I dunno, can you find it for me?

[boberz]

No, it was more tryiing to get you tocontribute to the game. Anythin original to say?

[curiouskarmadog]

updating today sometime

[Shanba]

boberz: How do I want to proceed? By lynching scum, I suppose. Mostly I want to try and get a town that feels mostly disinterested paying attention again, and I don't think long days are conducive to that; particularly long days where we dither and then fail to get a lynch at deadline like happened yesterday. I think we need to lynch scum today, and probably the serial killer because of the major difficulties that arise when the sk lives into lylo - though actually if we lynch mafia that puts lylo back a day. For what it's worth, I would 4 to 5 mafia in a game of 20 players, making lylo tomorrow or the day after.

My thoughts on who is scum are a little all over the place right now, but dybeck is a very good candidate. Normally at this point in time I would be looking for scum pairings, but most of the interactions we've had each day have been with the deceased rather than between two players who are still living (with nick and myself exceptions.) I could see a dybeck/jahudo pairing; I could also see dybeck sk but I'm not sure I totally agree with Javert's case for that. How is being stubborn an sktell, particularly? The idea of threading the needle between scumminess and towniness sure, I can see that that would be an sktell, but how is stubbornness contributing to that?

Thinking about it as I write this post, I'd actually put nick down as my top sk candidate, I think. Lurking is a very sk thing to do, for the simple reason that if you can fly under the radar until endgame then you have a good chance of living until endgame. But then I'm not sure the kills make sense from that perspective. But it would explain how he could be a counterwagon and yet still be scum; I've been discounting him partly because he was a counterwagon, but that doesn't stop him being sk.

I think dybeck's probably a better bet overall because he has a chance of being either scum whereas nick only really makes sense to me as an sk.