Mini 980 - Trader Mafia (Game Over)

[Zang]

##Vote: Nopointinactingup

[Zajnet]

H-H-H-Hammer!

GG?

[SaintKerrigan]

##Vote: Nopoint

for good measure.

35...
36...
37...
"Near...I've won!"

Nopointinacting, a member of Mafia Group A, has been lynched on Day 6.
Zajnet the Townie dies of a heart attack on Day 6
Zang the Townie dies of a heart attack on Day 6.
AlmasterGM the Townie dies of a heart attack on Day 6.

SaintKerrigan, the Death Note Owner, survives and wins the game.

(The above has obviously been a joke. Except the vote.)

[zoraster]

Day 6 Vote Count

Zang ( 0 )
SaintKerrigan ( 0 )
Zajnet ( 0 )
nopointinactingup ( 4 ) Zajnet, AlmasterGM, Zang, SaintKerrigan,
AlmasterGM ( 0 )
Not Voting ( 1 ) nopointinactingup
Total Votes ( 5 )
Deadline: July 12th at 11:00 EDT
With 5 total votes, 3 needed to lynch.

nopointinactingup, the Mafia A member, was lynched

Town wins!

Winners:

Zang
SaintKerrigan
Zajnet
AlmbasterGM
VasudeVa
Jack
Nobody Special
SpyreX

Thanks for playing. Comments coming momentarily.

[zoraster]

Dear Players,

I want to thank each and every one of you for playing in this game. I warned at the start that this would be a highly experimental game that would be complicated. I was not wrong. I have already received some very good, thoughtful criticism of the game via PM, but I invite all of you to give me more. Those of you who have played with me hopefully know that I not only handle criticism well, but I thrive on it. Although it is unlikely that anyone turns as critical an eye to the game as I do, each person brings a unique perspective on the game that I’d like to hear from. With that said, here are my thoughts:

1. First, I want to tell everyone that they were guinea pigs. No two ways about it, this was actually as much a test run as it was intended to be a full game. Don’t get me wrong, I absolutely tried to make it as good as possible, but my end goal was to use something similar to this in a Large setup. But I knew that neither I nor anyone else could conceive of all of the issues that would arise without first testing it in a realistic situation. To that end, you ended up with a lot of assets. I wanted to test the relationship of all the assets and how bidding would go on, and that sort of thing. So I put in more assets per player than I normally probably would have.
   
2. This game, in order to be rerun will need to be completely rehauled. I think the core idea is still sound, players bidding on assets and using that. But I think there were some severe weaknesses with the way I went about doing this. There are two categories to this: first, I think there were weaknesses that led to gameplay problems that made the game less fun as a player. Second, I think there were weaknesses that made the game more complicated than necessary for me as a moderator, and as anyone who has modded knows, as complications go up, the possibility of real mod mistakes goes up too. Mod mistakes drive me nuts. When I realize I’ve made one, I get a huge pit in my stomach because I know I’ve harmed the game, usually irreparably (fixes are often worse than the problem itself).
   
3. Problem 1 was I think there was too much emphasis on math. It was never my intention to make the game revolve around scum hunting via adding and subtracting. If players had thought about it a little more, I know that there were ways to use money transfers and the like to clear people. That’s not what I was after.
   
4. Problem 2 was the whole debt thing. The way I did it was both too severe and not severe enough. It was too severe because there was virtually no way, once someone took out debt and bought something, that they would not end up in bankruptcy at some point. It was too lax because anyone going into debt would essentially have 4 game days to do what they wanted. Part of me thinks the best solution to this is to scrap the debt thing altogether. I think with more players this becomes more doable as well. Alternatively, I could simply work a minimum payment in.
   
5. Problem 3 was the focus on the market. I think the most successful mechanic changing theme games are when a mechanic change is interwoven in a natural way to scum hunting without detracting from it. I’m not sure that happened here. There was understandably a lot of discussion around abilities, and I think ultimately it was an entirely asset driven conversation. I’m not sure I like that, but I’m not sure I have a solution either.
   
6. Problem 4 was timing. I’ve had two games where I knew real life time was going to be essential for the game: real time mafia and teleportation mafia. But I designed those games with that in mind. I did not do that here. It was, I think, my biggest failing of all in the game design. It was both foreseeable (i.e. I should have known, thus there’s no excuse for not addressing it) and disruptive to the actual game. I think the fix will be pretty easy, but I think it detracted from the game in a substantial way.
   
7. Problem 5 is that this game was an absolute bitch to run. I had a spreadsheet with five tabs and tons of info, and yet it still wasn’t enough to keep track of things. I missed things. My guess is I average 8 PMs a day on the game and these PMs were concentrated on certain parts of the game day. I lost track of a lot of things. I have a few ideas how to make this less hellish on me, but if you’re wondering why I became so frazzled as the game wore on in terms of assets, debt, etc. this is why. My apologies.
   
8. I actually thought this game was pretty well balanced between scum and town. I’m willing to hear disagreement on this point, though!
   
9. My overall thoughts are mixed on this game. On the one hand, I do not think this game lived up to what I hoped. It was, I think, a game that was less fun for the players than any other game I’ve run with the exception of real time mafia. On the other hand, there were sparks of brilliance in the game that showed real promise. If I could work the system to focus on
   these
   parts and get rid of the ones that drug this game down a bit, I think it could be wildly successful. But that doesn’t mean you guys shouldn’t blame me in part for what ended up being a fairly stodgy game.
   
10. Still, I thought you players did great. In particular, I enjoyed SaintKerrigan’s posts. Jack, while he was in, played better than I’ve seen him play in any of my other games. I was glad to have everyone else in the game, and I think I spotted several people who get added to my rolodex of invites for pre-ins.
    
11. I hope that despite all its flaws, you had fun playing this game. I’d love to hear your thoughts and comments. What worked? What didn’t?

[Andrius]

Nopointinacting, a member of Mafia Group A, has been lynched on Day 6.
Zajnet the Townie dies of a heart attack on Day 6
Zang the Townie dies of a heart attack on Day 6.
AlmasterGM the Townie dies of a heart attack on Day 6.
SaintKerrigan, the Death Note Owner, survives and wins the game.

OH GOD YES. SK YOU ARE AMAZING NOW. 8D /Death Note fan 8DDD

But yes. I thoroughly enjoyed the game, zor, and would like to play (or help, if you need it) with the next one- if you carry on.
@ zor: Yeah, I think I was too overly preoccupied with the debt portion of the game to care about the market. I was too busy trying to find out how to pay off my debt that I couldn't use the market.

I think my biggest mistake was not putting Investigation Immunity on the market D2.
I think my biggest hindrance was not having a scumbuddy D2. Me an' easjo had a plan for me to sell I.I., he to buy it, and therein he would be Godfather, and I'd be debt-free and Doctor.

@ NPIAU: I was screaming in the dead people QT for you to go down swinging. I respect your choice, but still. Gah. I would've killed them.

<3 for Vas, Jack, and Almaster. And my Death Note buddy Kerrigan.

[AlmasterGM]

Many thanks to zoraster for modding and to all the players for a fun game!

My comments are these:

1) I completely agree that the way debt works needs to be entirely redone. If you take out debt at the beginning, you will probably never be able to pay it back. Near the end, you can max out your debt with almost no repercussions, as the game will be over before bankrupcy strikes. I think a good solution to this problem would be to make debt work more like credit cards - if you don't make the full payment by a certain deadline, you have to pay a minimum payment plus interest that would constitute a large portion of wages.

2) I also agree that the game was too focused around math. As someone who hates and is bad at math, this was annoying. I am unsure of how to correct this, though; in a financal game, math is bound to be an issue, and it IS a key method that can determine who is lying and who is not (especially in the endgame).

3) Finally, while I thought the modding was well done, I agree that, in a time-sensitive game such as this one, the moderator needs to be very on top of the situation. If town is trying to quicklynch someone before the bidding period ends but it takes the mod a day to show up, that puts a huge damper on the town's plans. To combat this issue, I would suggest "modifying time" retroactively so that any time spent in twilight doesn't count towards game time. That way, the players are never penalized for any moderating delays.

Thanks again!

[Andrius]

Ok yeah. I definitely agree that debt needs to be redone.
Perhaps you could take out loans as well?

If everyone starts with say, $500, then that could last them for a few days, and have a payday at say, Day 5.
That way people like me (lynchbait) can use their money early on, and other people can save it for powers later in the game.
(B/c I really love Masonizers/Neighborizers)

[SaintKerrigan]

In particular, I enjoyed SaintKerrigan’s posts.

I'm glad you enjoyed them, despite me getting so many things wrong after the Andrius lynch and

almost

costing town the game. Although I

did

correctly call the remaining scum at the beginning of D4, lol.

Fishy's quickhammer is the hero of the game. It literally prevented a shift to a mislynch. Well done, Fishy.

Overall, this is one of my favorite games I've played in a long time, flaws and all. I actually love working out the math stuff (even if I get things wrong), so I'd love to find a way to keep math a good part of the game while at the same time not letting it totally dominate.

AGM's suggestion about fixing the debt is a good one. Another possibility is to offer more opportunities to increase wages. As long as scum get higher wages than town, they have the capacity to outbid town on anything. Maybe if the person who hammers gets an increase if the lynchee is of the opposite alignment or something? (Sorry, but that's the best I can think of ATM.)

@ Andrius: Yeah, Death Note ftw!

And yeah, you really should've gotten rid of II. Although as long as it's in scum hands if it gets discovered it's kaput for the guy who has it. Also, get your protects in on time.

[zoraster]

Well, obviously math will take some part in the game. Bidding for assets is the core principle of the game. How I incorporate it is still something I'm mulling over. But I think I'd like to avoid scenarios where 38.75 is looked at as different than 39, etc. Figuring out how much money you have, figuring out how much you think your assets are worth, etc. will still take part.

I'd like to reduce the role of debt, and I've thought about getting rid of it. But part of my problem with doing that is that everyone pretty much starts with the same amount of money, and that might mean that whoever gets their bid in first gets a sought after asset. One option would be to vary what people start with. Some people might start with an asset but little money, others might have more money, others might have higher wages. I kind of like this solution, especially in the context of a large game, but it does move the game away from that sort of "purity" we got here where virtually everyone has the same shot at being good as anyone else.

Clearly, I need more time to digest this game.

As for the timing, it was a problem. But I think it was a game design problem, not one of day-to-day moderation.

Oh, one thing I didn't mention that I think also needs to receive some thought from me is that the game needs more player interaction on the market. I have a suspicion it was because of the high number of assets I put out per player, but there were very few people who sold their asset they had previously bought, and when they did sell it, it went for pennies. I think I'd prefer to have a game that has most of its assets appreciate in value rather than depreciate, but i'm not sure yet how to achieve that. I suppose by front-loading end-game powers.

[Zajnet]

I really enjoyed this game, partly due to the design and partly due to SaintK

I like the idea of varying starting money and wages, and count me /in for a larger version of this.

I can setup a mini ebay system on one of my websites. People would login with their usernames and a password that you would pm them. It could keep track of everything, and possibly even handle all the uses of the abilities.

[VasudeVa]

Man, I TOLD YOU FISHY WAS SCUM D:<. I CAUGHT HIM D1 BUT NO ONE LISTENED TO ME! (Seriously though, it's always a huge problem on my games. >.> No one listens to me. I wonder what's wrong.)

Bravo on SK for catching 3/4ths of the scum(I'm pretty sure you would have caught all of them eventually if Fishy didn't masonize nopoint.) I was very impressed!

I was a little pissed that I got hammered before I even got to use the mechanics. Everyone was like 'OMG SURVIVAL MODE SCUMTELL' on me but I REALLY wanted to do some of the crafty math stuff SK did over the course of the game.

[SaintKerrigan]

Fishy's quickhammer is the hero of the game. It literally prevented a shift to a mislynch. Well done, Fishy.

Oh my god, did I really just say that?

[SaintKerrigan]

Well, obviously math will take some part in the game. Bidding for assets is the core principle of the game. How I incorporate it is still something I'm mulling over. But I think I'd like to avoid scenarios where 38.75 is looked at as different than 39, etc. Figuring out how much money you have, figuring out how much you think your assets are worth, etc. will still take part.

Well, perhaps instead of using exact numbers for one part and rounded numbers for another part, you could either use all exact numbers or all rounded numbers (I think the latter is better, especially for those that don't like the math).

Also, maybe scum and town should both start with the same wage. Scum already have the potential advantage of knowing who to wire money to safely to outbid other people, so I'm not sure that giving them a higher income than town is that necessary.

Debt shouldn't be eliminated from the game, I think. It's a check against people who hyperbid to get an item no matter what. AGM's suggestion seemed pretty good to me.

[Jack]

Game went great. Sucked to get killed n1 without getting to use the cop ability though.

Last few days were crazy.

[SaintKerrigan]

Game went great. Sucked to get killed n1 without getting to use the cop ability though.

Last few days were crazy.

Ah, so you had it. I figured after a while that the cop probably got NKed.

[Jack]

Game went great. Sucked to get killed n1 without getting to use the cop ability though.

Last few days were crazy.

Ah, so you had it. I figured after a while that the cop probably got NKed.

People kept asking the cop to claim

I would have cleared NS if I had lived.

[SaintKerrigan]

Yeah, clearing NS would've been nice. Although that might've gotten a lynch wagon to come my way before I could carry out my crazy plan.

Thanks for helping derail that btw, Spryex. Your efforts were not in vain.

[Jack]

Yeah, clearing NS would've been nice. Although that might've gotten a lynch wagon to come my way before I could carry out my crazy plan.

Thanks for helping derail that btw, Spryex. Your efforts were not in vain.

I would have derailed any wagon heading your way

"Voting SK at this point is a scumtell"--Jack in dead QT

[SaintKerrigan]

Yeah, clearing NS would've been nice. Although that might've gotten a lynch wagon to come my way before I could carry out my crazy plan.

Thanks for helping derail that btw, Spryex. Your efforts were not in vain.

I would have derailed any wagon heading your way

"Voting SK at this point is a scumtell"--Jack in dead QT

Good man.

Also, @ Nopoint: For future reference, if someone claims Doc and they can't self-protect,

always

target them for a kill. That's the only 100% chance of killing someone you'll get. Zang and Zajnet were the two people I protected on the last two nights.

[Andrius]

@ Andrius: Yeah, Death Note ftw!

And yeah, you really should've gotten rid of II. Although as long as it's in scum hands if it gets discovered it's kaput for the guy who has it. Also, get your protects in on time.

Yeah. I was hoping I'd get a replacement scumbuddy before I sold it.
Bah. Mafia Doc FTW.

Oh, and does anyone want the Mafia A QT?

[Jack]

Yeah, sure. Here's the dead QT:

http://www.quicktopic.com/44/H/kfYByDZVMRnA

[Bilbo Baggins]

Here's the Mafia A QT

It got really lonely without a buddy.

[Bilbo Baggins]

Oh geez. Sorry.
This is Andrius, BTW.

[Andrius]

That was me. ^^