Mini 1005: Mafiaphobes! (Game over)

[Tasky]

I think I'll vote Friend since I just voted him in the other game (popularity mafia)
VOTE: Friend, for scaring that poor cat

[Tasky]

now... since I'd actually like to get out of the RVS fast, I'll ask some questions for you to answer...

1) Are you scum?
2) What's the role you prefer to play (nothing to uncommon please), which role do you prefer between townie and scum?
3) What role you hate having in the setup/play against (nothing uncommon please)?
4) What do you think about bandwagons in early game, what in late game?
5) How would you characterize your playing style?
6) What do you think about RVS?
7) How do you hope to find scum?

[Tasky]

I'll answer 6 only.

Usually people who want to end RVS by not saying "End the RVS" are scum.

Asking subtle question to end RVS = scum in my experience.

vote Tasky

wowowo...
1. I actually didn't get the highlighted sentence
2. I think that asking (and answering) question gives town much more information than random voting... however, denying that information by dodging the questions, that's scummy...
so, UNVOTE: Friend, VOTE: vezokpiraka

[Tasky]

2) What's the role you prefer to play (nothing to uncommon please), which role do you prefer between townie and scum?

Pointless rolefishing question.

3) What role you hate having in the setup/play against (nothing uncommon please)?

See above.

question 2/3 are not role-fishing... I honestly want to know from you which role you prefer to play and which roles you don't like to play against (or with)...
this can be used later in the game for analysis of posts...

e.g. I think that someone is more likely to be passive if they are playing a role they dislike...
knowing ones favorite role can turn useful later on... see it as a kind of investment, everybody invests 10 seconds of their time to tell us their favorite role and maybe we get to use that information later in the game... it's probable that it won't serve any purpose, but it could be helpful later, so it's definitely an investment that's somehow favorable

_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_

I don't agree with SSBF on the last part. (before the scum tells)
I was in a game where town quicklynched scum on page 2 post 50. They gained a lot of insight just from that speed lynch.

but more talking = more information = good...
quicklynching is almost always bad...
please provide the link for that game

My last vote was half random half serious. I saw this thing with questions for ending RVS. I saw scum do it more that town. Town usually end the RVS by just posting: "The RVS ended".

I don't think there is such a hard division between RVS and not-RVS... the borderline is quite fluid...
usually one get's out of RVS once the first bandwagon (which is usually totally random) is derailed and people start analyzing that bandwagon.

I don't like tasky's response to my vote.

what exactly don't you like?

[Tasky]

I really don't understand the rolefishing claim... I want to know what role you prefer to play/what role you don't like to play against... I'm not asking you anythink about this game...
this is just so I can get a sort of personality profile... people tend to play differently when playing roles they like than if they play roles they don't like...
just because one says he likes to play cops, that doesn't influence whether he is cop or not...

_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_

I think the vote kinda looked OMGUS...I mean if I refuse to answer your questions does that make me scum? Some people have different opinions, I found it odd though that you voted for Vezo without any concrete evidence other then the fact he didn't answer your question just like 80% of the rest of the people...just saying.

two things:
1. not answering questions is denying information... and thats scummy
2. "you voted for Vezo without any concrete evidence"... well, there was definitely more reasoning in that vote than in all the random RVS-votes

I think the vote kinda looked OMGUS...I mean if I refuse to answer your questions does that make me scum? Some people have different opinions, I found it odd though that you voted for Vezo without any concrete evidence other then the fact he didn't answer your question just like 80% of the rest of the people...just saying.

Pretty much this. Your post pretty much screams "OMGUS," Tasky, and most of your questions are borderline-useless and won't add anything to the discussion.

they are definitely more useful than random voting... borderline-useless is better than plain useless

[Tasky]

First saying that the questions have mostly nothing to do with this game except to help you build a personailty profile.
Then saying that not answering questions is denying information so therefore scummy?

a personal profile of everyone helps me finding scum...
not answering my question denies me this information, and makes it more difficult for me to scumhunt
since everyone can also use the same technique, this information could be used by everybody, therefore, denying it to me also means that it's denied to everybody else who'd like to use it...

Seems to me like you custom tailored a situation where you could auto-vote anyone as scummy based on not answering your questions.

so how could I auto-vote someone as scummy if he told me their favorite role is [insert role here]??

_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_

I think I'll vote Friend since I just voted him in the other game (popularity mafia)
VOTE: Friend, for scaring that poor cat

Hmmm... I don't like this vote because it is one of those boderline random/not random votes. Even though the non-random vote had absurd justification, why did you need to follow up with a RVS justification of "scaring that poor cat"?

because that's the same justification I gave in the other game... simple as that

this is just so I can get a sort of personality profile... people tend to play differently when playing roles they like than if they play roles they don't like...
just because one says he likes to play cops, that doesn't influence whether he is cop or not...

Do you think having these personality profiles is more beneficial for scum or for town?

definitely town... scum already has (almost) all information they need... if I know more about you, it will be easier for me to find out whether you are scum or not...

[Tasky]

definitely town... scum already has (almost) all information they need... if I know more about you, it will be easier for me to find out whether you are scum or not...

The scums know who are the townies and who are the scums. But like townies, they can learn more. Information is helpful to town, but the downside is that they can sometimes be helpful mainly to scums. Scums want power roles dead before normal townies and

by asking those questions, you are giving the scums an advantage.

the highlighted part reeks... you think that creating information can hurt town?
how exactly are those questions supposed to give the scum information on the power roles?

[Tasky]

ok I see your point... but if you looked carfully, you'll see that vezokpiraka didn't just refuse to answer questions 1/2, but also 3/4/5/7... and now please don't tell me that those questions are pointless...
I can see if someone doesn't like questions 1/2, but I'd still prefer if they answer it... but he basically refused to answer at all

[Tasky]

EBWOP: this was referred to Oso's post

[Tasky]

how exactly is scum supposed to use it if I answer "I like being [insert role] and I really hate playing games if [insert role] is present" to questions 1/2?

But you said earlier that the questions were just a player profile. We aren't gonna catch scum just by answering basic profiling questions.

of course not... but definitely more than just casting random votes
and then, everyone uses his method to scum-hunt... I like knowing a little more about you (I'm not referring to private stuff), others don't care...
if you'd like me to do something because it can help you scumhunt, and it doesn't cost me anything and I'm not afraid of what you might get, I'll collaborate even if I would do it differently...

[Tasky]

the highlighted part reeks... you think that creating information can hurt town?

Read the post. I said that information is helpful to the town, but sometimes, they benefit scums more then town. But generally, no, they do not hurt the town because without information, town cannot make informed lynch decisions.

that's exactly what I am saying...

how exactly are those questions supposed to give the scum information on the power roles?

They have a preference for a role. Those two questions can help scums pin down which townsperson has a power role and which doesn't.

For example, if I did answer both of your question, scums could use my answers to help indicate which role I might have and which role I might not have. Sure the person could be a Vanilla Townie, but they could very well be giving out there role for the game without knowing it. This puts townies in even more risks for a Night Kill then they already are.

this assumes that people will answer telling the role they have in the game... but the questions is what role

you like/don't like

not what role you are... just because I like a role, that doesn't mean that I'm going to get that role...

look, I can kind of accept the argument which says that those questions are useless... maybe they are, but maybe they are not... I like them and that's reason enough for me to ask
but I cannot accept the scum-could-use-it argument as I explained above...

[Tasky]

definitely town... scum already has (almost) all information they need... if I know more about you, it will be easier for me to find out whether you are scum or not...

The scums know who are the townies and who are the scums. But like townies, they can learn more. Information is helpful to town, but the downside is that they can sometimes be helpful mainly to scums. Scums want power roles dead before normal townies and

by asking those questions, you are giving the scums an advantage.

the highlighted part reeks... you think that creating information can hurt town?
how exactly are those questions supposed to give the scum information on the power roles?

I already gave you the answer to this. Say someone responded that they like a specific power role and then that person lurks, says something along the lines of I having trouble getting into this game, etc. In scum eyes, that may not be a solid case for determining if that person should be NK'ed; but it certainly is evidence to support that that person is not enjoying the game and is probably not one of the roles he previously mentioned that he enjoyed playing. In addition, asking how people characterize their playstyle also gives clues to the mafia if someone is not behaving in the way they described. You are taking the information=pro town a little too literally; as more information is pro-town as long as it comes out fluidly in the game.

I'll have to accept your opinion even if I don't agree with it... I think the kind of information one gets from those questions is much more pro-town than pro-scum but everyone has his opinion on such things...

because that's the same justification I gave in the other game... simple as that

The justification you gave in the other game was because he scared a poor cat?

yes... RVS joke on his avatar...

the highlighted part reeks... you think that creating information can hurt town?

Read the post. I said that information is helpful to the town, but sometimes, they benefit scums more then town. But generally, no, they do not hurt the town because without information, town cannot make informed lynch decisions.

that's exactly what I am saying...

So you think it's okay to okay to provide opportunities that may be more advantageous to scum?

the "that's what I'm saying" point is that generally information doesn't hurt town since the need it to make lynch decisions

[Tasky]

the "that's what I'm saying" point is that generally information doesn't hurt town since the need it to make lynch decisions

The town needs character profiles in order to make lynch decisions?

town needs to find scum to lynch, and they need information for that... I like to get (a little bit of) this informations by character profiles... I'm not saying everyone should do the same... I don't care

how

you find scum, as long as you find it

[Tasky]

look... those questions were just made to start the game... you all keep overrating them... I like those questions to scumhunt, you don't, that's it... everybody uses their method...
I never said those questions (2/3) would give me all the scums in one shot, I just said they

could, maybe

help...
the others are even more useful... e.g. if I someone tells me his playing style, it's more difficult later to cover up scummy behavior...
as I said, 2/3 are more like a personal style of play, the others are definitely in towns interest to be answered from everybody...

[Tasky]

Tasky: How many games have you played? I want to know a little more about your experience level.

I am currently in 4 online-mafia games, haven't completed one though...
I have quite some experience with face-to-face-mafia but I do realize that it's quite different from the online version...
I really don't want anyone to protect me with the newb-card... just stop overrating that RQS-questions, they were nothing more than a way to get started...

_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*

ISO: 1 Does RQS. His RQS questions are mostly good, but #2 and #3 indicates rolefishing.

ISO: 2 Gives poor reasons for voting vezokpiraka, sounds like OMGUS.

talking about contradictions... first you say my RQS questions are good (save 2/3) and then you say voting for not answering them is poor reason... since we were in RVS and any reason, no matter how poor is better than no reason, this means it was no reason...
so you are saying that not answering good RQS questions is less a reason than RVS voting... that seems wrong

_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*

I'd like to see more activity from jayfl383, posted almost nothing...

[Tasky]

And I have to say, it looks pretty bad for vezo. I was going to say something to vezo after the post following SSBF's ISOs of Friend since it basically tries to call Friend out on the same thing that SSBF said, but vezo claims it was a ninja (or a "nath"?) by SSBF. I'm not sure if I buy that though since the posts were 6 minutes apart. Just after being called out on sheeping Oso, vezo seems to sheep SSBF.

this is a good point... especially since if you are posting and someone posts something in the meanwhile, you get notified by the forum mechanics... so, at the time he posted he already knew about SSBF's post...
but, instead of somehow expressing his agreement, he wanted to make sure by a EBWOP that his idea was indeed original...
this looks like trying to get town-cred... and that is usually scummy

[Tasky]

especially since if you are posting and someone posts something in the meanwhile, you get notified by the forum mechanics...

Testing this statement by subscribing to topic and seeing if it ends up as a board notification or in my personal email box. Of course, me being the poster might hose it for me. So could the first person who see this post?

no, didn't mean it that way...
if you write a comment, and meanwhile someone else writes a comment and post it, once you click "submit" there appears a message that tells you that new posts were posted while you were writing and it asks you if you want to change your post in the light of the new information (paraphrasing)

[Tasky]

FIRST AND FOREMOST THAT WAGON ON VEZO HAS SCUM WRITTEN ALL OVER IT....next...

could you please explain why in a calm manner instead of yelling at us... I don't know which authority you think to have, you don't have it...

Here again Friend now votes for Diddin because Diddin voted for....TASKY.....Friend votes Diddin because he felt Diddin's vote was opportunistic. But Friend, don't you think you're vote was opportunistic as well, just because another vote was placed on Tasky you felt the need to vote Diddin.

wait a moment... if someone votes in an opportunistic manner it's quite irrelevant who that vote targets, no?
opportunistic voting and unvoting (and sheeping) is a scumtell no matter who the wagonee is at that moment, it happened to be me, but it could have been someone else...

Or was it that you were trying to distract town from going on with the lynch??

you really think that wagon on me would have gone on to a lynch? I see that as wishful thinking of a scumbag who'd really like to quicklynch...

FoS:

jayfl383

_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_

I know the post before you appears

but it doesn't show the avatar

.

why would that matter?
you are somehow dodging the attack on you instead of responding...
so I have some questions (those are not RQs, so I'd really like an answer this time):
1. did you know of SSBF's post when you submitted your's?
--> 2a. if yes, why did you post that way anyway?
---------> 3a. why did you lie in your EBWOP then?
--> 2b. if no, why did you ignore the forum message that told you?
---------> 3b. did you care at all about what others (in this case SSBF) was posting?

[Tasky]

Defending people is a scum tell, period.

Defending a person establish a connection between you and that person you're defending. If the person you're defending flips scum, this can help people catch you if you're scum. If you're town, it's going to make you look bad. And it does not matter how you defended Tasky, it is still a scum tell.

wow... where did you get that from? I don't like people who use such generalized statements to support their arguments... mafia doesn't work that was, every situation is new...
and pointing out a logical fallacy in an attack is somehow a form of defense, isn't it? would you call that a scum-tell?

[Tasky]

and pointing out a logical fallacy in an attack is somehow a form of defense, isn't it? would you call that a scum-tell?

That makes no sense. In the eleven posts I've made in this game, I cannot remember a single time that I defended a person. I also fail to see how pointing out a logical fallacy on a person is a scum tell. If I attack a post, it's because I find it scummy, not because I want to defend a person.

that's exactly my point...
I was not referring to any of your posts...
look:
A brings up a fallacious argument against B, C points out that fallacy, so in a way C is defending B from A's attack... but as you said, this is not a scum-tell...
therefore your assumption that every defense is a scum-tell is wrong
QED

[Tasky]

doing an ISO analysis on diddin (all numbers are from [-1; 1]):
0: RVS - nulltell (0)
1: joking around - nulltell (0)
2: part one - standard theory answer - nulltell (0); part two - standard reactions - nulltell (0); part three - looking for town cred for nothing - decent scumtell (-0.3)
3: explanation to previous post - nulltell (0)
4: sheeping - slight scumtell (-0.1)
5: first part - standard answer - nulltell; part two - contradicting your own statement from post 4 - slight scumtell (-0.05)
6: still looking for town cred (saying that you are not claiming sole responsibility for ending RVS implicates that you have a part of the responsibility) - small scumtell (-0.2)
7: part one - explanation - slight towntell (+0.1); part two - sheeping again - slight scumtell (-0.1); part three - sheeping again but with some new reasoning - all in all a nulltell (0)
8: arguments, seemingly genuine scumhunting (+0.1)
9: fear for bandwagon - nulltell (0)
10: sheeping again, curiously doesn't vote though - slight scumtell (-0.1)
11: promise of content - nulltell (0)
12: reasonable attack, surprised he still didn't vote - slight towntell (+0.1)
13: standard theory - nulltell (0)
14: only possible continuation of his attack - slight towntell (+0.1)

total: -0.45

conclusion:
diddin starts giving away scum-tells, maybe he underestimated town and wanted to score some quick points (getting-out-of-RVS-thing and sheeping) and not get noticed, then turns to play more oriented, stops sheeping... this of course is no tell, since both town and scum would stop after being attacked for that... still hasn't made any point which would really classify him as a genuine scumhunter...
therefore I think the original scumtells make him a reasonable scumpick

[Tasky]

and I wanted to add that I'm going to be

V/LA 15.07 - 31.07

Noted, but I think because you're going to be away for such an extended period of time (more than the period of one game day), I'm going to have to ask the other players how they feel about this.

[Tasky]

Is that July 15th - July 31st you will be away?

yeah...

[Tasky]

I agree with the first part of Oso's case against KageLord... I think the time discrepancy is a really worthless argument
I like this post

but...

His post I have quoted above is a post that is meant to lynch a player. Not scummy at all doing that, but because of the way he gave himself an out on the major points of his argument to avoid consequences if vezo flips town or take a major portion of the credit if vezo flips scum, makes this into a post that only scum would use. Either to kill a townie with deniability or get credit for a bussing.

here your logic is faulty, Oso:
you are assuming that KageLord is keeping himself outs for both scenarios (vezo flipping scum/vezo flipping town)
assume KageLord is scum... he would then know whether vezo is scum or not... so he would not need to give himself possible outs since he could play just in the right way without having to keep the two possibilities open...
this is not saying that KL can't be scum, maybe he is, but if he is, for other reasons...

The last part still seems like something scum might say to me. Even if you somehow honestly believe that people suspecting vezo will out themselves as scum so it's useful to keep him around, you should obviously still care if he's scum or not. I can understand from what you said here why you might not want to lynch vezo, but remaining ignorant to someone's alignment

never

seems like something a townie would want.

I have to agree on this point

_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_

Tasky has stated that he will be v/la for 16 days, and seeing as the deadline for one game day is 14 days he will miss out on a significant portion of the game, so I've decided it's up to you guys whether you're happy to have him remain in the game or if you would rather him be replaced.

I don't know whether I will be able to get an internet connection in the place I'll going... if I am, then I could post sometimes (not often, but every two or three days)...
I'd make a proposal, you wait to replace me until the 20th and if I haven't posted until then it means I have no internet and if the other players want it, you can replace me at that point...

Yep okay, that sounds good. Another possible option is if you know of someone who might be willing to replace you just while you're away (kind of acting like a fill-in), I think that would be okay.

[Tasky]

ISO on vezokpiraka:

1: three lines, three times scummy... line 1, denies information (well, we had that discussion enough ); line 2 - why would scum ever want to end the RVS? why would town and scum do it in a different way; line 3 - totally faulty accusation
total: decent scumtell = -0.3

2: first part is odd, wrong at least, scummy at worst; second part is stepping back while keeping the attack with the vague statement "I don't like tasky's response to my vote."
total: slight scumtell = -0.1

3: theory discussion - nulltell (0)

4: theory discussion - nulltell (0)

5: sheeping? - slight scumtell (-0.05)

6: contradicting unvote of previous post - slight scumtell (-0.1)

7: one can discuss a lot about this post, in the end I think it's honest and we shouldn't overrate it (0)

8: explanation - nulltell (0)

9: explanation - nulltell for now (0) but you still owe us "all your reads"

10: while I do not share your method, I respect it - nulltell for the first sentence
"People usually suspect me if I don't have a PR and I'm uncced. " - this looks a lot like the selfmeta you so fiercely attack in ISO 2 - contradiction - slight scumtell (-0.05)

11: this looks a lot like OMGUS, since you give absolutely no reason for your argument against KageLord - slight scumtell (-0.1)

12: nulltell (0)

13: still self-meta... but consistent, so I'll say null-tell

14: wow... this post is crazy... I'd like to hear a

very good

explanation for it (haven't still heard one), especially the first line... for now I won't call it a scumtell...

15: weak explanation, I expect a stronger one soon...

16: the first line is the important one, not the last line

17: nice point, even if I don't think Friend is scum atm - slight towntell (+0.1)

18: backing back from what could have been a good point? fear of being attacked? attempt to buddy in the last line? - slight scumtell (-0.1)

19: overall an acceptable post, only thing I don't like is " I scum hunt very weird"... don't expect to use this as an excuse now or later

20: what's the owl effect? this post seems to imply there is no other reason to keep you alive? isn't there? - slight scumtell (-0.05)

total: -0.75
I vezokpiraka will be a good lynch today, if we don't find anything much scummier, for 2 reasons:
1. he is highly scummy
2. he is/was the centre of attention of a lot of peoples posts... since a lot of peoples have debated against/for/with him, making him flip will give us more information that anyones else's flip

therefore I am quite comfortable with leaving my vote on him atm...

[Tasky]

Tasky, what is this point system you are using for ISO's of people? Is it of your own creation or is it a universal point system from somewhere? If it's something you just created, it's subject to bias and I'd take it with a grain of salt.

yeah, of course it's subjective...
it's a way to show how scummy I evaluate different posts... so that my logic is clearer and if there is something you don't agree with it's easier to discuss about it...