Open 227 - Friends and Enemies

[TheButtonmen]

Deadline in 72-84 hours.

Zerofang, smash and CSL have all picked up their prods and have 24 hours to post in thread.

[CSL]

I really have nothing to say, because everytime I try to do a re-read, I end up giving up at about 3 in the morning trying to read this thread. If I live through the night, I'll do my re-read.

[Sanxion]

How does Octo look town?

Well, I won't defend his yesterday. I suppose overall he is probably neutral, but his post today is one of the closest things I've seen to scum hunting this game. Let me list:

Yesterday: Honestly, most people look iffy Day 1. Some people didn't post much/at all(?) and others posted little content. I think the worst of the day would be CSL, Zero, Smash, and (admittedly) myself look the worst. However,

Today: Octo looks town today because he is scum hunting. Just because he's doing it different than you, Chau, doesn't make it invalid as an attempt. I also don't find his logic ridiculous. I can't judge myself today as I judge my absence yesterday as bad (easy).
Zero and CSL are both very scummy, but while Zero looks bad, CSL hasn't explained his play from yesterday. His lack of defense is worse than Zero at the moment.

Both of these are worse than Smash, who has been absent. However, I really don't like his jump in to the game with an added vote to CSL. However, I'm still on the unsure of how to react to him. Thinking about it now, I am going to

unvote

until Smash contributes more because if he is lurking scum, I'd rather catch him today for his opportunism than tomorrow for lynching town (if CSL is) or for getting from townie points if he knows CSL is scum. Either way, I want a read on him *before* this lynch happens.

*CSL, you have over 60 hours, read the thread in the next day and post something about it. I don't understand how you can fail at doing this today.

[ZeroFang]

I have a large post in the process of being written, but I fear the time it will take me to write it will surpass the prod's welcome invitation to post.

[chauchaudotcom]

I really have nothing to say, because everytime I try to do a re-read, I end up giving up at about 3 in the morning trying to read this thread. If I live through the night, I'll do my re-read.

At the very least you should read up on the last 3 or four pages and address all the questions directed at you. Honestly, if you aren't even going to make an effort to participate I don't know why you don't just replace out. I'm beginning to doubt my original read on you.

Well, I won't defend his yesterday. I suppose overall he is probably neutral, but his post today is one of the closest things I've seen to scum hunting this game. Let me list:

Which post?

Today: Octo looks town today because he is scum hunting. Just because he's doing it different than you, Chau, doesn't make it invalid as an attempt. I also don't find his logic ridiculous. I can't judge myself today as I judge my absence yesterday as bad (easy).

Where has he been scum hunting? So far all I've seen Octo do is post his views on everyone (in which he pretty much only gives town reads or has no opinion and that he should wait for more information - if you can't see why this is suspicious then think of how it would be like reading this game from a town's perspective vs a scum perspective). The only time he really begins to do anything is after I call him out on not pursuing his suspects. After which his questions seem forced, like they are being asked for the sake of asking questions.

[chauchaudotcom]

Both of these are worse than Smash, who has been absent. However, I really don't like his jump in to the game with an added vote to CSL. However, I'm still on the unsure of how to react to him. Thinking about it now, I am going to unvote until Smash contributes more because if he is lurking scum, I'd rather catch him today for his opportunism than tomorrow for lynching town (if CSL is) or for getting from townie points if he knows CSL is scum. Either way, I want a read on him *before* this lynch happens.

Why are you un-voting when there's only 2-3 days left to wait for Smash of all peoplel? He has lurked all game. If he is scum I doubt he'd post anything if it could potentially make his image worse.

[Sanxion]

Looking back, oct posted less than I thought he did, but he's been consistent with his opinions and actually did (in character analysis) say that I looked bad (which means you're wrong about just calling everyone town) and followed that up with CSL and I being suspicious. I don't really get it now because his second post did have a response to you, which means you could be right about him. I still think CSL is worse. But maybe Octo is neutral and not town-like.

Also, I am unvoting CSL because, at the moment, I dunno what he is. So, I figure I'll revote him tomorrow (or a few hours before deadline) to see if Smash will post something and make it slightly harder to hammer CSL in the meantime. I won't miss deadline.

[chauchaudotcom]

I said his reads were either town reads or neutral. He occasionally calls people 'suspicious' but rather then committing to his accusations he later qualifies it by saying, "Oh..he's suspicious but I'm not sure so I'll wait and see." It's classic scummy fence sitting. Mind you he stated that CSL and you were his top in response to my questioning his 'analysis' of players.

The problem I had with your post was that you claimed Octo was 'town like'. You've failed to provide evidence of this. Neutral is more acceptable but scummy would be more spot on.

It's irritating that while everyone has prodded (and posted) we are still no closer to reaching a lynch candidate.

[ZeroFang]

[/life]
And while I apologize, that really doesn't do anything. You guys deserve several large posts from me.

I've been reading the thread a lot, but there seems to be a general lack of content with which to base my vote on. I'm having extreme difficulty finding more than meaningless banter in between the votes themselves. With that in mind I took a look at the vote count.

Ythan, ZeroFang, CSL, Octupis, chauchaudotcom, AKnottedRope, and Xite91 all voted for Don, which narrows the suspect list to seven. Yes, I'm assuming the scum voted for the easy wagon. For a town aligned player on the list such as myself, this narrows it down to six players. Let's take a look at them.

Ythan

Almost exclusively quotes/one liners. The vast majority of his content day 1 was a petty argument with Don, with little to no content today. I'm not sure how much of that to attribute to scumminess and how much to attribute to playstyle. I have hardly anything to work with here, and mystery is dangerous in this game. I'd be tempted to vote him because his scum/town status is just so questionable.

ZeroFang

There's no way I can be objective about myself, and anything I would write would be misconstrued.

CSL

He had absolutely no reason to ISO Don, didn't explain himself (not even so much as an "I agree" until later when it was implied), and now when he has a

minimum

of 74 hours to post something of worth, he declares that he'll re-read if he survives the night (which, considering how scummy most people consider him to be, is likely). I dislike lurker lynches because I understand how life can easily get in the way, but seriously, I am not liking CSL right now.

Octupis

His posts generally seem pro-town, and he appears to be using logic to deduce who is and isn't scum. Though I often agree with his reasoning, there are many instances in which his posts urk me, such as this one where he half answers, or when he says "Ythan's play was good for the town" despite him hardly contributing.

chauchaudotcom/Xite

Both aggressive, but in a townie way. They have made pretty substantial posts throughout, and are carrying this game.

AKnottedRope

I think I'll wait until he comes back from V/LA to comment.

[Sanxion]

So then, who, Zero, is scum? You've either excused everyone, refused to comment, or said they are townie. Also, why assume that scum is on/driving the wagon? Is there a purpose?

Chau: More you make me reconsider it, the more I think "maybe oct could be scum." but really, I am leaning toward neutral but not scummy. I think he could town because...well, Zero said what I said, so yeah.

[AKnottedRope]

Ok so. I'm back and reading what I've missed. If CSL is scum, then I would say Xite is too for this post:

Oh shit. Chao I went back to get the case on my reasoning and realized I was mistaking evidence from him in another game for this game... damn damn damn

Unvote

sorry CSL
@Mod please don't hate me for this, it was an honest mistake

The biggest reason that CSL would be scummy in this game is because he still seems to be lurking a bit to me. Yes, I'm suspicious of him, just not convinced he's the scummiest.
Also, I realized that this was the one where Ythan misinterpreted trust into what seemed like it was going to be a one-point case he was going to push. Still not sure if he's going to go further with it, but right now he is actually the scummiest to me.

[AKnottedRope]

Ythan, ZeroFang, CSL, Octupis, chauchaudotcom, AKnottedRope, and Xite91 all voted for Don, which narrows the suspect list to seven. Yes, I'm assuming the scum voted for the easy wagon. For a town aligned player on the list such as myself, this narrows it down to six players. Let's take a look at them.

Are you assuming that all of the scum jumped on the Don wagon here?

[Ythan]

But you kept going after me even when i explained, thats why i said you freaked out. oh? how was it a big mistake?

I kept going after you because your explanation was not sufficient, and the misrep was a big mistake because you're beginning to approach the flailing stage.

Ythan

Almost exclusively quotes/one liners. The vast majority of his content day 1 was a petty argument with Don, with little to no content today. I'm not sure how much of that to attribute to scumminess and how much to attribute to playstyle. I have hardly anything to work with here, and mystery is dangerous in this game. I'd be tempted to vote him because his scum/town status is just so questionable.

This starts out as acceptable if misguided, as anyone who has played a game will tell you that one-liners are, apart from not being scummy or anti-town in any way, my style. It gets suspicious when you suggest that you could vote me based on a lack of information. As for my lack of content today, it's a combination of spending a lot of time at my girlfriend's new place with no internet and my recent acceptance of a large number of replacement requests. After this your suspicions against CSL seem primarily to be a lurker policy lynch. No better than your reasoning against me. These weak stances seem odd juxtaposed with your defense of Oct despite evidence which you yourself provided that is at least as meaningful as that against me or CSL.

[Sanxion]

VOTE: CSL

Alright, Smash isn't posting but CSL is still refusing to post further today or even try.
Naturally:

FoS

Smash

Also, Zero: reply to my post and Ythan's post.

Mod: May we have a vote count on this post along with a deadline countdown. Thanks

[Octupis]

@oct- I don't think the debate matters one way or the other, is the reason.

Why did you say it was late, if you didn't want it to happen anyway? I don't understand.

Where has he been scum hunting? So far all I've seen Octo do is post his views on everyone (in which he pretty much only gives town reads or has no opinion and that he should wait for more information - if you can't see why this is suspicious then think of how it would be like reading this game from a town's perspective vs a scum perspective). The only time he really begins to do anything is after I call him out on not pursuing his suspects. After which his questions seem forced, like they are being asked for the sake of asking questions.

I think this is slightly unfair, you have a go at me when I wasn't asking as many questions, and now I do, they seem 'forced'. What am I supposed to do, or are you just going to suspect me whatever happens? Also, who else do you suspect apart from me? You say you are concerned about the deadline, but you don't don't seem to be doing anything to actually prevent us from reaching a no-lynch.

VOTE: CSL

Alright, Smash isn't posting but CSL is still refusing to post further today or even try.
Naturally:

FoS

Smash

I guess you're voting for CSL becuse of his lurking? In which case, after considering your other posts today (day two) I am not convinced you are doing much scumhunting. You have given an extremely vague overview of some player's activities yesterday, you've replied to chau's questions about me, and you've called out Smash and CSL for lurking. Is there anything else you have to say about the rest of us, apart from Smash and CSL for lurking? It seems suspicious to me that you would settle for a policy lurker lynch that to actually post any considered points on any other player.

I said his reads were either town reads or neutral. He occasionally calls people 'suspicious' but rather then committing to his accusations he later qualifies it by saying, "Oh..he's suspicious but I'm not sure so I'll wait and see." It's classic scummy fence sitting. Mind you he stated that CSL and you were his top in response to my questioning his 'analysis' of players.

You accuse me of fence sitting. What annoys me though, is the fact that you don't seem to be calling out other players who are showing similar behaviour:

@Oct: At the time, no. I would rather let things resolve to some extent (like the above) before commenting. I would like a

Prod on CSL or a replacement

. He's been missing so I have been unable to further develop a view on him.

However, I am still heavily leaning CSL for scum. I really think Zero is probably scum for his actions day 1 (mentioned elsewhere) and his absence today.

Smash fits too...and his last post looks like a universal "agree with town, vote this guy. Mybad, don't notice mekthnxbai."

I really dunno what to think of that actually...

Both of these are worse than Smash, who has been absent. However, I really don't like his jump in to the game with an added vote to CSL. However, I'm still on the unsure of how to react to him. Thinking about it now, I am going to

unvote

until Smash contributes more because if he is lurking scum, I'd rather catch him today for his opportunism than tomorrow for lynching town (if CSL is) or for getting from townie points if he knows CSL is scum. Either way, I want a read on him *before* this lynch happens.

Sanxion appears to be just as indecisive, if not more indecisive than me. Yet you don't mention. I appreciate that he has voted, and I haven't but his case his a policy lynch, and he has not been doing much scumhunting apart from that. chauchaudotcom?

Lowell, Smash, CSL, anything to say? I would also like to see the vote count before voting.

[CSL]

I am still at L-3, because Sanxion was already voting me.

[TheButtonmen]

Smash picked up his prod but failed to post.

I'm now looking for a replacement, deadline is unchanged however.

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

I'm sorry, I was going to work on a post now, but I don't think I'll have the time for this game, so go ahead with the replacement.

[Xite91]

Sorry guys, meds are making it hard to focus, replacing out of most of my games

Mod, please find me a replacement

[Sanxion]

I am still at L-3, because Sanxion was already voting me.

I had unvoted and revoted since, and I could be wrong, deadline is in 24 hours.

@Oct: If we had the time, I'd now pursue a lynch on you. I commented that you seemed town-like, but after chau pushed me to consider his view point, you looked more neutral since not only had you posted less than I previously thought, but your posts were not as committing (thus scummier). I defended that you were consistent in your suspicions, and still looked kinda of town (ergo, you even out as kind of neutral). HOWEVER, you're reaching. I have not been "fence sitting" today.

@Oct: At the time, no. I would rather let things resolve to some extent (like the above) before commenting. I would like a

Prod on CSL or a replacement

. He's been missing so I have been unable to further develop a view on him.

This is not fence sitting. This post is a reply to you with a request to prod.

However, I am still heavily leaning CSL for scum. I really think Zero is probably scum for his actions day 1 (mentioned elsewhere) and his absence today.

Smash fits too...and his last post looks like a universal "agree with town, vote this guy. Mybad, don't notice mekthnxbai."

I really dunno what to think of that actually...

Bullshit. If you look at the full post, I am responding to chau, who asked who I suspect other than CSL. Therefore, I am not fence sitting but giving opinions on other people. (In fact, I do follow up my uncertainty of Smash with a demand for more from him. But to judge his replacement, I think he might not have time and to consider his lack of ability to post scum driven would be a poor call.

Both of these are worse than Smash, who has been absent. However, I really don't like his jump in to the game with an added vote to CSL. However, I'm still on the unsure of how to react to him. Thinking about it now, I am going to

unvote

until Smash contributes more because if he is lurking scum, I'd rather catch him today for his opportunism than tomorrow for lynching town (if CSL is) or for getting from townie points if he knows CSL is scum. Either way, I want a read on him *before* this lynch happens.

Again, no. I wanted to know Smash's reason for voting CSL. Whatever CSL would have flipped will influence my view on him, but to get the best view of a person, I should know their intentions going into the lynch, which is pretty hard when you vote almost entirely on the basis of town's majority.

unvote; Vote Octopus

I think Chau is right about you. and I really don't like being misrepresented. And as you criticize me for "lurker policy lynch," I think you might agree this is better. On the issue, however, I think that CSL looks fairly poor from yesterday and despite being more present than our other lurkers (smash/zero), he has refused to really talk or explain himself. So, there was a bit more than just "he's lurking."

I believe that deadline is in 12-24 hours? Am I getting that right?

Mod: When is deadline/vote count?

I'm sending a pm to the mod for clarification.
Oct is the best lynch today, but I'd settle for CSL to avoid a no lynch.

[TheButtonmen]

Deadline is pushed back 24 hours to July 17th.

Vote count this evening and I may extend the day an additional 24 hours as long as the games still active (I'll decide tommorow).

[Octupis]

You've misunderstood me. I am not misrepresenting you. If you read the posts that I quoted, all I am pointing out is the fact that in them you seem to reach a conclusion of wanting to wait and see (which I was accused of). In the second, the last line is indecisive, and in the third, you again ask for more time to decide. I am not saying there is anything wrong with this, I am tentative and generally indecisive too, but what I am saying is that is chau is going to call me out on it, then he should also note that trend in your behaviour. I am not saying that these posts haven't added too the game, I have been very impressed with your play today, but I am saying that the opinions you reach seem to be generally indecisive, which the quotes show. Also, I'm not convinced about your case on CSL still. Smash hasn't really explained himself, and Zero gave the excuse of life. I don't see how this is different to the lurking of CSL. Lastly, I am also not very impressed at the speed that you unvoted your top pick for scum, CSL, and voted me, without even allowing me to reply.

We have different understandings of the term 'fence sitting', but I hope you see what I was saying, and realise that chau's behaviour is rather inconsistent in your favour.

[TheButtonmen]

After much consultation with the man behind the curtains.

Deadline is pushed back to July 20th.

Vote count will happen once I'm home.

[chauchaudotcom]

I think this is slightly unfair, you have a go at me when I wasn't asking as many questions, and now I do, they seem 'forced'. What am I supposed to do, or are you just going to suspect me whatever happens? Also, who else do you suspect apart from me? You say you are concerned about the deadline, but you don't don't seem to be doing anything to actually prevent us from reaching a no-lynch.

It's not the fact that you asked questions after, it's the questions you asked. If your questions actually seemed like they were leading somewhere or were relevant to scum hunting then it wouldn't have bothered me so much. But when it appears like you are asking questions for the sole sake of asking questions, then it becomes scum attempting to appear pro-town.

And for the record, I already stated my other suspects:

At the moment I'd say Octupis, Smash and Sanxion would be a far better lynch than CSL.

And I am trying to prevent a no lynch. I'm trying to get everyone to lynch you if you haven't noticed. It's not my fault they aren't biting.

I'm not blind. I'm quite aware of Sanxion's posting habits and I actually happen to agree with you. It just so happens I only get one vote and you are a step ahead on my scum list. But don't worry, your scum buddy will join you soon.

But I am curious Octo, putting your defense aside. Who do you think we should lynch today?

I'll comment on san's omgus outburst in a bit.

[Octupis]

Sanxion, I'm still kinda worried that you might refute my last post, so I'm going to refine it, to save us time later on. I think your play today has been good, generally. However, I think you have been sitting on the fence. I was concerned about taking your posts out of context when I quoted you earlier, but I am going to show you exactly the parts I mean:

@Oct: At the time, no. I would rather let things resolve to some extent (like the above) before commenting.

I really dunno what to think of that actually...

Either way, I want a read on him *before* this lynch happens.

In each, you made a point, and then qualified it with a comment that nullifies your convictions. Now I admit that I do this, because I am honest, and I just write what I think. If I am unsure then I will write that. All I was saying was that chau hadn't seemed to notice you doing what he had attacked me for.

Chau, I didn't remember you posting your suspects, sorry about that. I was not expecting you to vote for Sanxion because of his fence sitting, but I was expecting you to have at least noticed it. I guess I was foolish to presume that you hadn't noticed it just because you hadn't posted it. In response to your question, I have a strange feeling about Lowell and would like to hear much more from him, I am awaiting an answer from him in fact, but would like to know what he thinks about lynch candidates today. Apart from that, I am interested to see if Ythan and AKR are going to start posting regularly again now. To answer your question, I would be interested to see Lowell lynched (it's just a gut feeling to be honest, I agree with Zero, in that there hasn't been an awful lot to go on today, but something about Lowell doesn't sit right with me). Also, why do you think that the other players aren't taking the bait, and lynching me?