New York 116 - Prozacs Large Normal - Who won?

[Toogeloo]

Hello all. Only a couple names I recognize on the playlist. Lowell and I have played one game together, Traffic, in the Themed section. Digi and I have a smaller amount of experience in an incomplete game. Aside from that, I don't know the rest of you from Adam.

Vote: Benmage

for not having an Avatar. Get one please.

[Toogeloo]

Ok, it's official. Fugitive is the VI.

What is a VI?

(other than Virtual Intelligence)

[Toogeloo]

woo gunslinging... also, since benmage's signature tells me to, I guess I will blindly follow him...

Unvote: Charlie
Vote: toon fighter

Unvote
Vote mothrax

I do not like your sheepish behavior. Benmage was at least random, your reasoning is just bad (derp, BMs sig told me to do it).

[Toogeloo]

Toogeloo - do you feel that mothrax's vote was indicative of scummy behavior, anti-town or RVS shenanigans?

It came off masked as RVS I think, but his vote on Toon Fighter seemed like a way to get another train going, and it's a very good point that he would use the excuse to vote Toon Fighter that it's still Random when he states he doesn't like the RVS at all.

[Toogeloo]

I do find it interesting that Mothrax stated that he didn't like the RVS, yet still did nothing to get out of it, instead extending RVS even further by posting his joke "his sig told me to" vote.

This seems like deflection to me. Digi has two large posts of defensive behavior after AGar questions him, and he slips this single line in as, what appears to be, a deflective statement to redirect the attention back at mothrax.

[Toogeloo]

Just want to say I have more to post once I get home from work this evening.

Why would you even waste space with this post? You have 72 hours from the last post before prods are even necessary, so why give us an update on when you plan to post later that day when it hasn't even been that long since your last post? Are you just trying to appear active?

[Toogeloo]

Fugi, why are you openly randomly bandwagonning right now exactly? You're basically extending the RVS, which has already been said is only beneficial to scum.

Possible that you just hit the nail on the head? Mothrax doesn't really even seem to care he has votes either, and Digi has disappeared since the wagon got rolling on him.

Alot of quiet names after looking at the player list. Some or all of these people either need to post more, or have a bigger voice. I didn't even know some of these people in the game, and lack of activity or content makes it easy to forget them:

6. Wraith
9. Lowell
10. tubby316
11. Stef
12. Anon

[Toogeloo]

It's kind of an apathetic game, but I don't think that gives anyone a reason to lurk.

Unvote
Vote: diginova

I could definitely see digi as scum, and I hope pushing him into the lead sparks some conversation.

[Toogeloo]

Sup all, back from vacation. Shouldn't have anymore interruptions until late August when I do some moving. Anyways, I see that there are two bandwagons going up, and that diginova is at L-2. There has also been some limited discussion on policy lynches. Since there wasn't an RQS, I'm gonna ask a question for every now: My only policy lynch is Lynch All Liars. Liars, if they aren't scum, are extremely dangerous. I developed this attitude toward liars during my first newbie game, in which a VT fake-claimed Cop in a botched attempt to draw a night kill. As a result, he had to lie and double-lie about his "result" and ended up drawing a lot of heat that could have been used to find the real scum (AGar was present at this game, and I was scum in that game, funnily enough). Who agrees and who disagrees with this polcy lynch and why?

It really depends. Generally speaking, catching someone in a lie is more damning than the liar openly stating he lied in an attempt at a gambit, and if the player who lied actually knows what he's doing and how he will respond in all circumstances, then it can usually pay off. It usually enough to at least scrutinize the player more harshly on further actions as the game progresses.

It also depends on the lie. Obviously you wouldn't lynch someone who lied about being a Vanilla and then came clean later that he was really the doctor after he could explain that the lack of night kill the night before was because he protected someone (thus increasing the chance that both players are town).

[Toogeloo]

@Toogeloo and mothrax, I take it that diginova's claim doesn't change your feelings about him significantly. You're both leaving your votes on him without mentioning it.

I was debating the responses and biding my time. I personally think that Jailkeeper is a safe claim for a Scum Roleblocker. Jailkeepers aren't very common in my experience, and if he is Mafia aligned with roleblocking powers, he has made himself an out. I also don't like the timing of the claim as it came sort of off the cuff. All the same, it does me no good to tunnel on the bastard while we have plenty of day light available, but I don't have to unvote to focus elsewhere. When I feel the need to move my vote, I will do so.

[Toogeloo]

Just a question: Wouldn't a scum jailkeeper be a bit of a bastard role?

lol, I hadn't even noticed that you said bastard prior to my post and me calling digi a bastard, who has claimed said role

In response to your question though, most Jailkeepers I have seen (the few), have always used it as primarily a Town Roleblocer role. The Doctor protection does no good to players with Power Roles unless said PR is passive, like Beloved Princess. What good is Jailkeeping the Town Cop if you are just going to Roleblock him anyways, and give the Mafia Roleblocker someone else to target. Sure there's WIFOMing the scum team and what not, but in most cases, the Jailkeeper just makes attempts at blocking instead of protecting.

I'm not a big fan of Jailkeeper as a role, I once saw the Town Jailkeeper block the Mafia Roleblocker, but stop the Vigilante shot on the same person.

[Toogeloo]

I just got off a game with Lowell as well (Play in Traffic), and he was extremely anti-town and rarely contributed to discussion. He was town in that game, though he never made any attempt to prove it. I think his play is a null tell on his alignment, but I could see myself supporting a policy lynch against an anti-town player in lack of sufficient reason to lynch someone who may or may not be scum. Interestingly, people are bringing up post content of players like Charlie and tubby, and Lowell has even less content (4 total posts, most are just votes and unvotes and one prod response).

[Toogeloo]

@Toogeloo and mothrax, I take it that diginova's claim doesn't change your feelings about him significantly. You're both leaving your votes on him without mentioning it.

Needs to be answered...

@Toogeloo and mothrax, I take it that diginova's claim doesn't change your feelings about him significantly. You're both leaving your votes on him without mentioning it.

I was debating the responses and biding my time. I personally think that Jailkeeper is a safe claim for a Scum Roleblocker. Jailkeepers aren't very common in my experience, and if he is Mafia aligned with roleblocking powers, he has made himself an out. I also don't like the timing of the claim as it came sort of off the cuff. All the same, it does me no good to tunnel on the bastard while we have plenty of day light available, but I don't have to unvote to focus elsewhere. When I feel the need to move my vote, I will do so.

@Stef
You seem a bit over the top on the policy lynch thing. Benmage had simply asked people's stances on the matter, I gave my opinion on his Lynch all Liars stance and elaborated later down the line that if there is sufficient doubt one way or another on a lynch, that I could see Policy Lynches as a viable solution. Aside from that, I don't recall too much railed discussion on actually policy lynching people.

Lol @ the claim. A little premature imo but nothing we can do about it now. Still hasn't changed my opinion about him just being bad town.

...

Just note for myself: I don't like how many people didn't have any problems with the easy claim. Note to others: DO NOT CLAIM until you are ASKED TO (by more people, not just one). DO NOT hammer without A CLAIM.

^This comes off a little forced as a pro-town stance. Not really feeling you at the moment Stef. Your observations thus far don't come off as scum hunting but just posts for appearance.

FoS Stef

[Toogeloo]

stef

nicely done i am reading you as town well thought good posts

This is quite interesting in the fact that I thought her posts have seemed over the top townish, almost forced, and I recall someone else mentioning the same after me. I even FoSed her for it. I'd likely consider it that if she is scum, you may be as well. What's disconcerting is that she votes you and you praise her "nicely done, townie."
PREVIEW EDIT: It seems just before I submitted this, Stef swings in and unvotes tubby for "improving."


I did a little isolation on her as well since she raised an eyebrow from me...

Due to the prod I find myself in need to be active in both my games although I asked for V/LA in the GD topic.

Actually she never stated V/LA in her previous posts, not really important, just saying... LAL (Where's Benmage?)?

I started making a long wall-o-text and decided to delete it as it would just end up as parroting. I will just limit myself to making a summary.

mothrax = opportunistic, only merit in his case against digi is calling out on digi not voting for his main suspect.
CCARaven4 = voted because someone told him to, using huge crap-logic in his voting pattern.
diginova = OMGUSy, overall looks like bad town.

Toon Fighter: how populist of you to have as your 3 main suspects the 3 biggest suspects of the game.

I think Raven needs votes.

unvote, Vote Raven

I bolded the part with Toon Fighter calling him populist because she was called for doing the exact same thing in this very post. It is quite hypocritical. This is her first real content post, but as you may notice, she didn't want to parrot and she did anyways. The whole post is kind of hypocritical, and may have just come off as a way to express content without actually hunting for it.


Not going to bother with posting her ISO8, it's lengthy, and it's the last this she posted, but just summing up, I reiterate that the whole post felt forced, especially the key parts of "No policy lynches <insert Stef finger wag>" and "no one should claim until asked."

Her activity hasn't been stellar, and I got nothing to meta her against since I've never played with her. But the parts I am looking at just don't see heartfelt in content, and appear mostly just for activity sake.

Unvote
Vote: Stef

FoS tubby

PREVIEW EDIT: From the new post.

I'd rather be redundant than regret it later. Enough newbies in this game warrants a little extra care.

Admits that she isn't really hunting and just posting redundant commentary. Most the rest of the post is defense by appearance, with more pushing on Benmage for his desire to save town from Lowell by PLing.

To her credit, when she stated concern of Benmage and the Policy Lynch thing, I mistook it as Wraith's question recalling the wrong person.

Sup all, back from vacation. Shouldn't have anymore interruptions until late August when I do some moving. Anyways, I see that there are two bandwagons going up, and that diginova is at L-2. There has also been some limited discussion on policy lynches. Since there wasn't an RQS, I'm gonna ask a question for every now: My only policy lynch is Lynch All Liars. Liars, if they aren't scum, are extremely dangerous. I developed this attitude toward liars during my first newbie game, in which a VT fake-claimed Cop in a botched attempt to draw a night kill. As a result, he had to lie and double-lie about his "result" and ended up drawing a lot of heat that could have been used to find the real scum (AGar was present at this game, and I was scum in that game, funnily enough). Who agrees and who disagrees with this polcy lynch and why?

Still, she has been over the top on the Policy Lynch thing, probably more so than necessary. Most people responded to Benmage stating the cons of PLing a player, Stef took to a slightly elevated level of chastising such activity, and railing Benmage for it.

Still think something is fishy with Stef and tubby though >_>

[Toogeloo]

Actually she never stated V/LA in her previous posts, not really important, just saying... LAL (Where's Benmage?)?

I guess EBWOP should state is as Where's Wraith lol. I hope it doesn't become an issue of me mistaking BM and Wraith all game. Speaking of which, BM... again... get an Avatar please >_>

[Toogeloo]

bad format is bad, but you all get the idea =p

[Toogeloo]

Actually she never stated V/LA in her previous posts, not really important, just saying... LAL (Where's Benmage?)?

It's not LAL, it's LTR. Learn to read because I said I posted in the

GD

topic.

GD = God Damn, at least that's how I read it. If you meant something else, it wasn't clear.

[Toogeloo]

That whole point is irrelevant to the case against I put against him anyways, so without straying off topic about the whole thing, I am keeping my vote on him for now.

[Toogeloo]

Admits that she isn't really hunting and just posting redundant commentary

Brutal misrep. I was referring strictly to the "do not claim until/do not hammer until" part and there is no way you could have mistaken that. You strike me as extremely sloppy with the above posts.

Actually, you said you were being redundant to this quote:

^This comes off a little forced as a pro-town stance. Not really feeling you at the moment Stef. Your observations thus far don't come off as scum hunting but just posts for appearance. FoS Stef

I'd rather be redundant than regret it later. Enough newbies in this game warrants a little extra care.

So I have no idea why you would think I could mistake that as "do not claim until/do not hammer until."

[Toogeloo]

I'll comment on the "hall of votes":
mothrax: reminds me of myself, he said woohoo about the wagon. I've seen myself liking to be suspicious when I had a power role. Mafia is less likely to nightkill someone who drums up suspicion. At least that's what I get from the theory that mafia members nightkill townies that get town reads from people. I get the sense that he's a townie who excited to play the game. I think he's town, there's others more suspicious.
charlie: I can see how people are nervous about him. His attention span could be in display here. What is worthy of note is: the post he made after being pressured to give content is okay, but he should have given such content before. Charlie's got to be prodded to talk, I don't know whether I can trust someone like that.
lowell: frustrating with your low content, are we going to here anything from you; it's two votes one you right now, but we other players can concentrate on you if we want to later. Your choice to act now or be a anti-town player. I want to comment on actual content, lowell.
tubby: I believe him when he says he's busy and is affected by that. Not really more to say about him except that I hope the "shite" clears up.
Wraith: I don't like some of what you've said. I can why Charlie voted for you and I might too because something bothers me about you. You're probably the first one that I'll ISO when I have time to do so.
Benmage: You're next at ISOing. I can see why Anon voted for you, and your gameplay makes me wonder about you. Get an avatar; I mean, should I assume you don't have time to get one? I'll read your posts later.
Stef: I have neutral feelings and I feel like I need to get some further read on you. I will see what you say. And lastly,
Anon: I will see what you have to say. I think I trust you, you are saying things that make sense to me. I get a town read.
So, I think I've established a good view of my thoughts on people. I will read more people in isolation. But I hope this game is good and doesn't have lags in it.

Dude... spacious paragraphs

[Toogeloo]

Here's an idea:

Benmage wagon.

He initially tried to push a very scummy policy lynch on Lowell for reasons that do not benefit the town in the least bit. Since his policy lynching attempt has all but failed, Benmage has disappeared. I know he's blaming the /in-vitational game for taking up his time, but the game really wasn't that much of a time constraint, and it got shut down. Two days ago. The fallout shouldn't be absorbing all of his time, and he doesn't appear to be in any other games. In other words, he should be posting. And he's not.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Benmage

While I do agree that he has been quiet since his attempt at policy lynching Lowell, I would hardly qualify 2-3 days of abyssmal posting as being disappeared. I know that when I have a train of thought on a player that gets abolished, I will sometimes take a few days to just slink back and reevaluate a new prospect. Not everyone is aggressive every single time they post, especially after one of their ideas was just shot down.

It doesn't surprise me at all that Stef would attach himself to that wagon though, I just detest that all he had to add was his approval.

[Toogeloo]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Benmage

I approve of this service/product.

Vote: Benmage

Hang on a moment there, you're not getting away under the radar. Why do you want to lynch Benmage? (If you mentioned it in an earlier post I probably haven't seen it yet)

Stef has been mentioning that he doesn't like policy lynches and was hating on Benmage for it.

[Toogeloo]

Policy lynches on D1 don't work because we're not left with much for the next day. Also, we should probably lynch a more active person because that will give us more information to work off of for 'tomorrow'. Lynching a semi-lurker won't help us much unless we're sure they're lurker-scum.

I disagree with multiple parts of this.

First off, policy lynching on Day 1 is probably the only time in the game where it will ever successfully happen, but it has to be done once we have established certain lines in the sand, and we have an idea of who's defending who, who is attacking who, and who has been on lynches. While the lynch iteself doesn't give any information for Day 2, it does assist in Night Action choices which directly correlate to how Day 2 also unfolds. Also, tendecy-ally (mmm... new word) speaking, as uninformed as town is on Day 1 is anyways, our first lynch tends to be a crap shoot anyways. Policy Lynches also give some minor information as to who suggested it, who was against it, and who jumps on with little reasoning, which is also information to help us move forward.

So while we don't gain as much information from a Policy Lynch, we certainly aren't left with nothing to work with on the next day. Asking our Vig or Scanner to take care of it is more of a waste of a Vig shot or Scan.


I also disagree with lynch active people instead of semi-lurkers. Active people are more prone to screw up in the long run, whereas semi-lurkish to inactive people are more likely to have an air of WIFOM about them and can cause issues down the line if they are town and not as participative.

[Toogeloo]

@TF: I wasn't worried about an early D-1 wagon because they happen. I figured it would bottom out at about l-3/l-4 and oh look, I was right... as per attacking digi and not defending myself, the best defense is a good offense... what I say about myself will be interpreted however you want to interpret it... what I say about others speaks more. Why quit scumhunting if I don't have too?
Also, C: WHAT? I voted for him because he made the comment "I will jump on whatever wagon looks fun." Not because it looked fun... if you are going to attack me, at least do it well... that means reading the entirety of my posts, including punctuation and the last word of a sentence.

Unvote, Vote:Toon Fighter

It seems to me like you are trying to say under the radar a little with only 6 posts in ISO. Also, it looks like you are fishing for reasons to justify your vote... which btw is not for who you say you are the most suspicuous of.

You are most certainly not out of the woods yet mothrax. There are plenty of people who still consider you the best lynch of the day. It appears to me that one of the scummiest looking people in the game is just looking for an easy person to vote with an easy reason.

Unvote
Vote: mothrax

[Toogeloo]

Everyone who finds me scummy (or finds me to be the "scummiest person in the game") please explain to me what exactly it is you find me scummy for. Since multiple people are claiming that they "don't like" such and such about me and that I have apparently failed to properly defend myself against attacks, I would like to know specifically what those attacks are, since all I see are "reaction to vote" as well as "needs more pressure"
I can't defend myself if I don't know why you are attacking me...
I will say this (again.) My reaction to the bandwagon was relaxed for multiple reasons.
A)It wasn't that large of a wagon, L-4/L-3 are not worrisome numbers for me, especially relatively early D1.
B)If the wagon had been succesful, it would have aided town anyways... I have people claiming I am just looking out for myself which I don't see. Yeah, it would be nice to stay alive, but if I die, I die and can still win. My death would have also allowed the town to analyze the wagon on me, and analyze my interaction with others (i.e. who came down on me hardest, etc...) IMO voting patterns and interactions with confirmed players are some of the most resourceful tools for town to use.

I personally don't like the vote on Toon Fighter is my primary reason. It's a lurkish vote. There are plenty of other hot issues you could have taken a part in, but you decided to go after someone with no other heat at the moment. It's a kind of way to appear active like you are hunting, but you aren't. You haven't even backed up the reason with content since I voted you over it. It's telling me that you have no conviction for your current vote, and were just trying to put your vote somewhere that wouldn't draw any attention, and maybe you might slip through the day forgotten amongst the masses bickering about Benmage and policy lynches. That is ultra suspicious to me, and your previous behavior which brought you scrutiny and a wagon earlier keeps you on my radar. I only unvoted you earlier because I detested the stalemate that had formed between you and digi.

[Toogeloo]

Only thing is, scum would need to policy him, as a false cop claim with a guilty would out them and a NK would be wasted by scum.

Why would scum do that? Lowell is the perfect type of player for a scum to have around at Lynch or Lose. So long they have appeared more pro-town than him, he is an easy mislynch by that point. I've seen this happen to Lowell personally in Traffic where he was mislynched as town because he wasn't pro-town in the slightest, and the last scum was very pro-town.

[Toogeloo]

My, you're judgemental.

Look, you're in no danger of being lynched. And "judgmental"? That's a new one; I'm actually a nice guy .

That's not really a confidence inspiring post for someone who wants Charlie dead. It's your job to get us riled up on why he needs to be in danger of being lynched.

[Toogeloo]

Yes, I do believe defending someone D1 is scummy. Always have.

I've been defending Benmage most the day, do you think I am scum then?

What I want to do now is lynch someone and see what the flip can bring us. If there is a Vig, I urge him to kill Lowell tonight or tomorrow night unless he gets activity and contribution up. 10 posts for 16 pages and nobody is pushing for him to bring it up except me. On the lynch, let's lynch someone who is somewhat active and has enemies. The flip will tell us more on who is who.

Unvote

Vote: Benmage

Sorry, dude.

Bad reasoning is bad; Bad vote is bad; and bad direction of a PR is very BAD. If you are scum, you could be going for a twofer.


I would be completely down with lynching any of the following people on their bad reasoning and play today, and overall lack of pro-town vibes: mothrax, CCARaven, Wraith, Stef, and maybe digi.

Benmage strikes me as very town, and with the exception of maybe AGar (because I think he is misguided), I don't like most the people who have been pushing for his lynch for the last few days.


mothrax hasn't returned to refute the argument I have against him, Wraith is being opportunistic, and CCAR seems off and Sandman makes a good point of the hypocritical/backpedaled comment of policy lynching. CCAR tried to make it look better later, but I think he is trying damage control more than an interpretation error. I don't like that many of these players are not getting the attention they deserve for very bad play.

[Toogeloo]

I want to lynch someone who is in the center of the conflict. You know, since I read Benmage as town, I'll vote for the other side of the equation, who I initially thought was scum and now think of as neutral. Good point Toogeloo.

Unvote

Vote: Tazaro

/facepalm
You read the guy town and you voted him anyways?

[Toogeloo]

Allow me to get this started. I am feeling pretty confident on this one, and anyone who has been following Wraiths last posts should see it too.

Unvote
Vote Wraith

[Toogeloo]

/facepalm at Wraith

I'm thinking VI but ... meh... my second lynch option. If the Benmage wagon doesn't get enough friction by deadline I'm in.

Sounds like scum resistant to bussing their mate to me.

[Toogeloo]

We are not lynching Benmage. Wraith should be the one dying today, but short of that, I would be fine getting back on mothrax. He hasn't reappeared since I called him out, and I moved my vote to Wraith because of my confidence, but my eye is still on mothrax.

Stef or CCARaven would be great too, but not enough momentum to get on those players I think.

[Toogeloo]

We are not lynching Benmage.

Are you saying in the event that it was Benmage or a no-lynch, you would choose no-lynch?

If it came to that case, then obviously other people feel the same about not lynching Bm as well. I will not vote for Bm to be lynched, so you would need someone else's vote, or you would need to look elsewhere considering I gave a list of people I thought were scum.

[Toogeloo]

Oso, what's your Role?

[Toogeloo]

Haven't been able to read thread closely since last post but I really think Stef is best option for the day.

You can't have some one playing who refuses to answer questions. That is the single most scummy thing ever.

A no lynch is obviously no answer. If there isn't enough support this way I'll help ensure Wraith hangs. But look hes going to go iso his wagon....geeze the guys town. Start voting Stef, and we may save this day.

I am fine with that.

Unvote
Vote: Stef

With a slightly apathetic town though, I hope we can swing the momentum.

[Toogeloo]

Just checkin' ^_~ ... not that I thought I could get one past you!

[Toogeloo]

I always saw JK as a way to keep a pro-town player alive. In general, pro-town, vocal players, are more likely to be Vanilla (or at least they should be). Vanilla Townies are the best vocalizers in a game because they want Scum to kill them. A VT needs to be a threat to Scums existence in a vocal manner. Do Scum attempt to figure out and kill the PRs, or the players who are piecing the mystery together and being quite vocal about it?

Barring that, the other use for JK is to target who you think is scum and hope we can block the Night Kill or other PR (usually RB). I think JKing a Town Power Role is for the most part useless, though a town that has it's act together can bluff it's way through it (JK WIFOMs the save on a PR, or does protect the PR and the PR fakes his ability).

[Toogeloo]

Haven't been able to read thread closely since last post but I really think Stef is best option for the day.

You can't have some one playing who refuses to answer questions. That is the single most scummy thing ever.

A no lynch is obviously no answer. If there isn't enough support this way I'll help ensure Wraith hangs. But look hes going to go iso his wagon....geeze the guys town. Start voting Stef, and we may save this day.

I am fine with that.

Unvote
Vote: Stef

With a slightly apathetic town though, I hope we can swing the momentum.

You agree with BenMage about Stef? Why are you vote hopping? Stef only had one vote, and it was BenMage.

I said that it was an apathetic town but that I have hopes of a momentum sway, so obviously I recognize it's weak at the moment.

[Toogeloo]

Benmage also stated that he doesn't want Lowell at LyLo which is his reasoning. All you are trying to do is paint him in a negative light.

[Toogeloo]

Why Wraith is submitting to being lynched is beyond me. Is he giving up? Does he really feel his lynch will provide more information on who is scum and town than anyone elses lynch? Him begging to be lynched is no better than a policy lynch at this point because he is telling people to vote for him giving them a free pass to get on board. I still don't like Wraith, and if he does flip scum, he has given all his mates a way to mask their behavior, but if he flips town, any scum on the lynch will practically be undetectable because he told them to get onboard.

Look at the tubby vote for example. Can we determine his alignment based on that post after Wraith's flip?

[Toogeloo]

Refusing to take a stance?

I've made my views on people perfectly clear since I started buckling down. It's impossible to be certain about alignment off wording and some actions alone, especially on Day 1. You need flips to know whose words/actions you can trust and whose you cannot

. Which is why I'm pushing for my own lynch.

Well, Toogeloo,

this

is what he asserted to be the reason for why his lynch is informational. I think his connections that he's made with people can be examined after a lynch, because I don't think his cleverness in throwing us off is exceptionally high, given the faults he made.

But what it seems like is being asked is that if he flips town, we should lynch people he thought was scummy. How is his day 1 opinion more valid than actual evidence from a mislynch or scum lynch? There is little information we can gain from players if we lynch someone asking to be lynched, and to go after people he thinks are scummy afterwards is just asking us to trust his Day 1 gut.

[Toogeloo]

The way I see information coming about is: If Wraith flips town, check the people on his wagon that I believe is, as of now, 7/9ths full (lynch-2). If Wraith's scum, then check distancing and buddying involving Wraith. The fact that it's L-2 makes it interesting whether the next people will vote for Wraith or for Stef.

What Wraith is doing is no different than asking for a Policy Lynch though. Look at the votes for Wraith, most of them are just settling on him, no information will be gained from it. And it's stupid to think that if he is scum that we should be looking at people distancing themselves or buddying. It's more likely that if Scum Wraith is offering himself for lynch, then his mates will all want to be masked into it as well in one way or another.

[Toogeloo]

Toogeloo, votes that have no reason are as to madness with method to it.

WTF were you trying to say there?

[Toogeloo]

Damn, so many replaces on the first day of the game. Does this constitute another extention?

[Toogeloo]

Well, I am not going to No Lynch, nor am I going to stand for a Benmage lynch.

Unvote
Vote: Wraith

[Toogeloo]

I believe that should be L-1. Before any claims happen someone should say they're willing to hammer. If no one is or if people unvote then we should not have a claim here.

I see no reason to not claim now. Do I want to hammer? No. Will I hammer to avoid a no lynch? Yes. I think many are in the same boat. Let's hear a claim. This is the popular direction of the day, and if the claim is going to warrant a switch lets maximize our time to do so.

Wraith has more or less claimed already, unless you want him to specify directly.

If I was scum, I assure you I would not be drawing this much attention to myself. I probably would have attempted to fade into the background when someone else started becoming suspicious. But no, we're getting somewhat close to deadline, and we need a lynch.

I'm not a power role, and my flip can be very informative.

So I'm a good choice, in all honesty.

[Toogeloo]

Furcolow, by any chance do you know a person here on MS who goes by the username of razorback?

oh god...
So far, furcolow at least looks coherent in his posts >_>

[Toogeloo]

Day has gone on long enough, I suspect most people have lost interest.

[Toogeloo]

I doubt a viable target is even likely at this point... look at the last few real life days worth of content... no one cares about this day anymore.

[Toogeloo]

Vote: mothrax

He attempted to stay off the radar once his lynch subsided, and he voted for people without any attention on them. He was on board for a Lowell lynch, but when Benmage got attention, he stealthly disappeared and then put his vote on someone with less attention. He is one of the scummiest players from day 1.

If anyone got ANYTHING from Wraith's flip, I would love to hear what... my most suspected player on that lynch was tubby for his no reason, just wagon it, vote. We would have been better off policy lynching Lowell >_>.

[Toogeloo]

Wraith hammering himself was cowardly too. Way to be pro-town there bud.

[Toogeloo]

VOTE: Toogeloo

What lovely reasoning to go along with said vote AGar.

[Toogeloo]

I would be fine with more pressure on Lowell and tubby as well, but I am fairly confident in mothrax as scum.

[Toogeloo]

VOTE: Toogeloo

What lovely reasoning to go along with said vote AGar.

Worried?

Not in the slightest. I will give you the opportunity to unvote though before you embarass yourself.

[Toogeloo]

To answer your arguments:

- Buddying up to benmage hardcore, defending him from anything and everything that you can find.

The votes were piling on him too easily. I didn't defend him against the reasoning for the Policy Lynch, but I think the reasoning to get on him was more opportunistic than the reasons he wanted to lynch Lowell. If you will notice, one of the reasons I want to lynch mothrax is for unvoiting Lowell when Ben got votes, and then disappearing from the wagon all together. I at least have conviction in defense, mothrax was scared for publicity.

- Hypocrisy about the lynch that you were on.

Better than a no lynch in every way. We don't learn nearly as much from the lynch as we could a good lynch, but we at least learn more than a No Lynch.

- Borderline tunneling on mothrax for a good period of time now.

I find him very scummy. His play reeks of opportunism and looking to stay out of the lime light. He escaped without a claim yesterday which is also troublesome. All attention that was on him was quickly redirected away, and he didn't display any qualities through out the day that made me believe he was town in any way. In fact quite the opposite. He tried to play off the radar which is scummy to the extreme.

[Toogeloo]

What's with all the posts to avoid prod? I get the feeling no one really even cares to play this game.

[Toogeloo]

Toogeloo - Here's an idea about something from the Wraith flip. Charlie wanted to see Wraith's lynch through, but couldn't provide a case. Who can't provide cases on people they know to be town?

I'd be willing to explore it, though he wasn't on my list of possible scumspects going into today. We had trains going on both moth and Charlie yesterday, and somehow both managed to escape without a claim or even a revisit. I will defer to the majority on this one considering the lack of activity, but I can definitely see where the cause is coming from.

Unvote
Vote: Charlie

We got so many people avoiding prods, on V/LA, and/or just laying low off the radar. I hate inactivity because it suffocates the town of information it needs.

[Toogeloo]

Toogaloo and Toon Fighter both seem scummy to me. They started the day by voting for me one after another... Then as soon as Charlie got more votes on him they both dumped my "wagon" in favor of another. There are several D-1 instances if you look at votecounts, where they obvwagoned or buddied up to each other... (sometimes with benmage in on it, but that strikes me more as them trying to buddy up to him to throw town)
TF lurked for a large part of D-1, and His vote on me early reads OMGUSy to me...

Vote: ToonFighter
FoS:Toogaloo

You don't get it do you? Why don't you read through Day 1 again before you embarrass yourself.

[Toogeloo]

Hint: unvote TF and vote Charlie, moth.

Let's force a claim out of him, determine what we like of him, and then lets also swing pressure over to tubby who is obviously just beating around the bush and thinks we don't give a shit about it.

People I also don't like are Stef and CCAR.

[Toogeloo]

I take it you haven't been reading the game then and paying attention. Scum tend to rarely put effort into reading, and just attempt to stay off the radar. My next correlation would be that you are indeed scum.

Let me ask you this. You have a vote on ToonFighter. What do you plan to do next Mr. Cautious? You are self admitted not an aggressive player, so did you intend to just ride out a vote on TF, hoping that maybe some other stragglers would get on it? Perhaps you would just ride through another day and not put any effort into reading or real hunting. Since you prefer being useless, you may as well wagon.

[Toogeloo]

Worried that someone might actually see you or TF for the scum you are and do something about it?

Absolutely not in the least. In fact for you to be so blind about the whole thing continues to boggle me.

[Toogeloo]

You want a claim now? I can oblige you if you answer this question.

Sure, why not. Discussion isn't doing anything else right now. It may do you good, and claims are good for town anyways. I usually like at least 2 a game day, but this game hasn't been the most town friendly, so gotta work with what we got.

Beyond your claim, I want an inclusion of your suspects, and why, and maybe some proof via posts on what makes them possible scum.

[Toogeloo]

erm... I suck at quoting apparently, but Charlie obv said that, not me with him quoting me.

[Toogeloo]

And yeah, we don't

need

more Charlie pressure, what we need is more discussion in general. It's pretty pathetic only a hand full of our 14 players anything to talk about. Far too many people who are self admittedly not into the game, on V/LA, or just playing their "under the radar / anti-town" game play.

Personally, I didn't have Charlie as one of my suspects today. My suspect list was (in order):

mothrax
tubby
Stef
CCAR
AGar
Oso


The reasons I suspected them were:

mothrax tried to get on ToonFighter twice as an easy vote for someone without any suspicion. It appeared as a way to ride off the radar and post conviction for someone who wasn't going to get lynched. He didn't even try that hard to get attention on TF.

tubby had really bad tag on votes and minimal content through out the day. He was just happy to wagon on anything and not put himself out there.

Stef's pursuit of the Benmage policy lynch just seemed opportunistic. AGar was already pushing on Benmage for it, and I think Stef took the opportunity to put a little more effort on it. Combine that with his overall bad attempts to look pro-town, and I didn't like much of anything he posted.

CCARaven doesn't stick out very much in my mind, which is a good sign he was trying to stay off the radar. He seemed to play Devil's Advocate in most of his posts which means he was looking for the strongest wagon to eventually get on while looking active.

AGar seemed interested in pushing town. The problem is he came out swinging and then petered out by midday, just attempting to settle in on a lynch. I put him on possible scum but a lot hinges on the others on the list. I would say the more likely the ones I am feeling end up being town, the more likely AGar is scum.

Oso is only on the list because of the beginning of the day gameplay from digi and the Jail Keeper claim. Jail Keeper is a very easy scum claim since JK is not a very commonly used role, and it's an easy out for a Mafia Roleblocker, the more commonly used scum role.

[Toogeloo]

Since all I am doing here is apparently being useless, or attacking a player I find scummy (I thought that was what I was supposed to do) I will

unvote

.
I will hammer Charlie when the town decides that is what they want. I don't see what is so scummy but since that is the general consensus and at leas part of his wagon is town I will follow that.
Happy?
If you need me I will be being a good little townie and only pressuring those you all think are scum.

[sarcasm]Way to be a team player![/sarcasm]

I myself stated that I didn't actually have Charlie on my scum suspect list, but we need to start somewhere, now don't we? It's also relevant to having conversation.

Now, besides myself and ToonFighter, who do you feel may not be town on the Charlie wagon?

and...

Unvote

...because L-1's make me nervous. This day has not been near long enough for me.

Vote tubby

This guy needs thoughts, preferably before he asks to be replaced in my opinion.

[Toogeloo]

EBWOP (moth's broken post broke my post >_>):

Unvote
Vote tubby

[Toogeloo]

Please don't string me up without me contributing more to find the people responsible for the terrible murders of our receptionist, head of HR (so maybe I didn't like how he writes but hey that's no reason for me to off such an administrative figure!) and the ones to come. Threats to PPC Co. Ltd. must end!

Ya'know... Wraith did the same thing. He just kind of gave up and stopped scum hunting. It would certainly be nice if you decided to, ya'know, fight for your life or something.

[Toogeloo]

His constant posting updating his life, but no content. How do you separate those who are apathetic from those who are just trying to lay out of the light though?

[Toogeloo]

I don't buy Charlie's claim. The way he is playing is not, at least in my opinion, the way a VT would be playing. No scum hunting to speak of. No trying to persuade folks to go after who he might think is scum (this is from yesterday's play). No probing to verify or disprove his own reads. I'm sorry. His claim just doesn't match up with his play at all as far as I'm concerned.

I fully agree with this, VTs are the meat of discussion starters I think (or at least they should be), and there is a fairly good possibility of Charlie being scum (given the knowledge that has been developed thus far).

I don't want to end the day just yet though.


If you aren't feeling tubby, how do you feel about CCAR Oso? Also, if you don't mind, who did you JK last night, and did you do it for protection or to roleblock?

[Toogeloo]

Also, if you don't mind, who did you JK last night, and did you do it for protection or to roleblock?

Scratch that, no point in telling me just yet.

[Toogeloo]

sonuva...

[Toogeloo]

His constant posting updating his life, but no content. How do you separate those who are apathetic from those who are just trying to lay out of the light though?

i thought my life was pretty interesting and worthy of sharing. sorry you don't feel that way

So this is what we get? Promised content, and we get fishing stories and complaints that we don't think your life is interesting?

[Toogeloo]

very pro-town of you.

[Toogeloo]

@Toogeloo, why on Earth do you think that claims help the town? Power roles make themselves targets by claiming and vanilla townies narrow down targets for the scum. Unless there's a mass claim of some sort, we're really ready to lynch someone or someone thinks that they have information that will help the town and chooses to claim on their own we shouldn't be looking for claims in a game like this. Have you got other games to point to where you've said that?

No games on site sadly, but I have taken to mafia as more of a puzzle than a battle of wits. Claims help piece that puzzle together. Claims also make it easier to trap scum. Do they Fake claim Vanilla only to be tracked the next night by Tracker? Do we get a claim of scans from the cop thus being able to clear members of the town and make their comments much more valid to finding scum? Confirmable town members like Mayor and Masons remove suspicion from said players and further narrow down the list.

The more information we get, the more likely scum get trapped. If scum attempt to fake power, and someone else is said power, they have trapped themselves. If they claim Vanilla and get scanned/tracked they can get in trouble.

What good does it do if our power roles die without breadcrumbing or claiming? Perhaps the Cop dies Night 2 and had scanned a player innocent on Night 1 but didn't at least state he felt that player was trustworthy today. What happens if we tunnel that player tomorrow because we didn't know the dead cops thoughts?

Look at a bigger picture. I don't care who feels that keeping information a secret is a good thing, but realize that I like claims, I like to have almost 50% of the town claimed by the 3rd or 4th day. You can't play a logic game with out some red truths to concrete your arguments.


I am headed to Yellowstone for the weekend in about 12 hours. I will be back on Sunday.

[Toogeloo]

@Toogeloo, the style of play that you're describing is a valid way to play mafia but it's not particularly the style you're likely to find here. It looks like in some ways you're starting with the town power roles as your means of catching scum and using their presence as a drive for actions in the game. The problem with the approach that you're proposing is that if town are claiming (power role or otherwise) it's making it easier for scum to kill them off and thus eliminate the type of game that you're trying to set up. Sure you can potentially catch scum in traps if they fake claim but that's not particularly any better than simply lynching them when they make the claim in the first place. The claims should be made for the purposes of information, not to stop lynches.

If town power roles have information they think is worth sharing then they should share it. For a cop that's probably not a single innocent investigation at this stage in the game; confirming a single innocent on day two isn't all that valuable and from then out out they're pretty unlikely to be able to do any more investigating (assuming competent mafia but depending a bit on the setup.) There is some danger that they'll get killed without revealing it but, so long as the town in general isn't claiming there's not a huge danger of the scum finding them if they're not playing like a cop. The more claims we have the more likely an information role is to want to claim early and largely negate their ability to gather more information (because the risk of losing it goes up.) With less claims we're more likely to get more information in the long run out of such roles even if there is a slightly greater risk of getting no information at all.

I'm all for playing for a high information game; getting early claims isn't the only way to go about that and in fact I believe that it's a less efficient approach than having people claim to share their information before they get lynched, if we're ready for a mass claim or if they think they have information that is worth revealing a power role to share.

I can understand this. This is only my 5th game on site, and most have been R2R games. The site I have gotten most of my experience from uses shorter length days (48 hours), shorter nights (24 hours), allows mafia and masons to talk any time on their boards, including when dead, and uses a lot more power roles (usually only a third of the player base consisting of Vanilla town/mafia). My play style is still heavily influenced by that site, but I do still use a lot of gut, instinct, and deduction regardless.

[Toogeloo]

Also, I'm not suggesting that if a Cop or other scanner has a clean scan, they come out and say it. But a breadcrumb is useful, something non-obvious, so that if they flip, an isolation of their posts can usually return useful information going forward.

[Toogeloo]

I like you pj!

Unvote
Vote: Tazaro

I haven't felt the Charlie lynch-to-be (especially considering how quick and easy it was) but I did like the wagon, and your perspective on Tazaro makes a lot of sense. If correct, then it develops a few ties to other players that will practically assure their alignment (eg Ben will be almost entirely town). Your opinions on Oso make me feel better that my read on his claim are accurate as well. Gonna keep this short since I am packing for my trip right now, but I would like to get more people on Tazaro. I think pj just gave us our new target for the day!

The only thing I haven't fully agreed with you on, pj, is your minor suspicion cast on Sandman. I had gotten a town feel from him yesterday because he shared a lot of opinions with me in a non-buddying way. You said you didn't like his posts, but is that correlated to you thinking he is scum, or are you just nervous because of his posting style? What did you feel about his Day 1 suspicions if you ignore his posting X:Y style?

I am now on V/LA until Sunday Night. See you all after my trip.

[Toogeloo]

Back from V/LA

... looks like I have a small bit to catch up on.

[Toogeloo]

Mostly just skimmed... alot seems pretty repetitive considering how much was posted in the last few days.

First thing I notice is that Charlie has disappeared once pj and Taz got into it. Could be a strong possibility he ducked out in the hopes that Taz train may take off and clear him a day, though I am mildly curious why Charlie wouldn't at least lend his voice to a Taz lynch if he were scum. Charlie hasn't put any effort into saving himself at all really.


I understood exactly what pj was getting at with the Tazaro thing, so it's interesting to me that a few people took so long to realize what was being said or were trying to counter it. I also find it humorous that people are attacking pj for his point of view being incorrect, as in, how can a point of view be incorrect? Maybe in pj's experience that is a common scum tactic, and why isn't Taz directly countering with his own perception of the matter instead of crying out that he can't defend against another player's inference on a matter? How hard is it to state what your motivations were when posting something?


As far as the lynch goes. Charlie's lynch will tell us nothing at all I think today. We had a quick wagon on him and very minimal discussion. Tazaro's lynch on the other hand has a lot more information to be gained, and there is no denying that there is questionable activity from Tazaro himself. I will be keeping my vote there for now, though most people still seem bent on the Charlie lynch (which is still fine, just not likely as informative).

[Toogeloo]

That post kind of depresses me a bit pj. What was the point of building pressure onto Tazaro this entire time only to let it bellow out it's steam now? Do you hope to start a third wagon at this point? Your points may be valid in several cases, but your moving your personal pressure around, and I find it hard that you will continue to get support because no one likes to be a sheep.

[Toogeloo]

Unvote

Need to rethink things now that I am back from my absence. Humorously Too(squared) and moth being on Tazaro alone made it look like we had put our differences aside. I think for now I may be reinvigorated to return attention on the floaters of Stef and tubby. Stef's Day 1 posts still irk me in the attempts to look pro-town and yet reiterate the general town consensus in an attempt to appear active, and since Day 2 has started, he has been a general non-factor.


AGar is one of my suspects from the end of Day 1 as well, but Stef and tubby were higher on the list, and I want to see what pj makes of AGar first before I lend him my support again.

I would be very interested to see what kind of isolation mothrax returns with on Toon Fighter and AGar, mostly the latter, but it would be interesting to see from his perspective what an isolation on someone he has been tunneling on for the better part of the game may come back with as well.


To everyone in general, looking at the Charlie wagon, do you feel there is scum aboard, regardless of whatever Charlie's alignment may be? And how do you feel it compares to Wraith's Wagon (or any of the wagons) from yesterday?

Here is all the votes and unvotes of the first day (parenthesis are unvotes, italics are known town):

Wraith

- (AGar), (AGar), Charlie, Lowell, (Toogeloo), AGar, Tazaro, Sandman, (Oso), tubby, Toogeloo, Zorblag,

Wraith

Benmage - (Toogeloo),

(Anon), (Anon)

, (AGar), Stef,

(Wraith)

, CCAR, (Oso), Toon Fighter,

Furculow

Lowell - (Toon Fighter), (Benmage), (mothrax),

(Wraith), Wraith

Stef - (Toogeloo), Benmage, (Toogeloo)
AGar - (Zorblag), (Charlie), (Fugitive),

(Wraith)

Anon/Furculow

- (Stef), (Zorblag), (Sandman)
CCAR/pj - (Stef)
Charlie - (mothrax), (Lowell),

(Anon)

, (AGar), (CCAR), (Tazaro)
diginova/Oso - (AGar), (tubby), (AGar), (Lowell), (mothrax), (CCAR), (Toogeloo),

(Anon)

Fugitive/Tazaro -

(Wraith)

, (CCAR), (AGar),

(Wraith)

millar13/tubby - (diginova), (Zorblag), (Stef)
mothrax - (Toogeloo), (Sandman), (Zorblag), (Benmage), (Fugitive/Tazaro), (Toon Fighter),

(Anon)

, (Lowell), (Toogeloo)
Toon Fighter - (Benmage), (mothrax), (mothrax)
Zorblag - (Lowell), (Fugitive)

I like to look at these for better analysis on voting patterns. Getting late, and this took up a good chunk of my evening. Will be doing a stronger analysis tomorrow.

For now, I am returning my vote to Stef. Alot of his posts from Day 1 still continue to rub me the wrong way, especially that quick little unvote of tubby after tubby offered almost minimalist content that also praised Stef , and I really feel he needs the attention he hasn't been getting. I'm also strangely interested in why 6 people jumped on Charlie Day 1, but he almost wagoned out at the beginning of the day today... where did all the support come from? And what happened to the moth and Ben (Top 2 vote getters after Wraith) looks?

Vote: Stef

[Toogeloo]

Here is all the votes and unvotes of the first day (parenthesis are unvotes, italics are known town):

[9]

Wraith

- (AGar), (AGar), Charlie, Lowell, (Toogeloo), AGar, Tazaro, Sandman, (Oso), tubby, Toogeloo, Zorblag,

Wraith

[4] Benmage - (Toogeloo),

(Anon), (Anon)

, (AGar), Stef,

(Wraith)

, CCAR, (Oso), Toon Fighter,

Furculow

[1] Lowell - (Toon Fighter), (Benmage), (mothrax),

(Wraith), Wraith

[1] Stef - (Toogeloo), Benmage, (Toogeloo)
[0] AGar - (Zorblag), (Charlie), (Fugitive),

(Wraith)

[0]

Anon/Furculow

- (Stef), (Zorblag), (Sandman)
[0] CCAR/pj - (Stef)
[0] Charlie - (mothrax), (Lowell),

(Anon)

, (AGar), (CCAR), (Tazaro)
[0] diginova/Oso - (AGar), (tubby), (AGar), (Lowell), (mothrax), (CCAR), (Toogeloo),

(Anon)

[0] Fugitive/Tazaro -

(Wraith)

, (CCAR), (AGar),

(Wraith)

[0] millar13/tubby - (diginova), (Zorblag), (Stef)
[0] mothrax - (Toogeloo), (Sandman), (Zorblag), (Benmage), (Fugitive/Tazaro), (Toon Fighter),

(Anon)

, (Lowell), (Toogeloo)
[0] Toon Fighter - (Benmage), (mothrax), (mothrax)
[0] Zorblag - (Lowell), (Fugitive)

Now with numbered vote counts!

[Toogeloo]

It looks like you included rvs votes in that analysis.

Of course I did. Nothing is ever truly random, there is a method to all votes, regardless of what someone says. If someone didn't want a vote to be analyzed, they wouldn't put it down in the first place.

[Toogeloo]

Sorry folks, weekends are bad for me for awhile. Will catch up. For starters, those not voting charlie need to explain what about his claim/actions make him look non-scummy. I dont' see it.

The way I see it, he ain't too much different than you. He has an anti-town, uninformative, lurkish, and he is getting attacked for it. It didn't fly against you on Day 1, why would we hold the same standard against him today? I'm looking for evidence of actual scummy behavior, everyone else just wants to lynch the least pro-town behaving player (so why not you Lowell?).

[Toogeloo]

I was reviewing the case on Charlie presented by Oso, and most of it has to do with Charlie not pushing reasoning on Wraith despite being the first person on Wraith, and having only 2 votes the entire day.

Let's review some similarities of other players...

Lowell was the second player on Wraith, and he too presented no compelling argument as to why he should be lynched. I was the third person and actually posted reasons why Wraith should be lynched, but I eventually got off because I felt Stef was acting scummier, only to return later to prevent a possible No Lynch. So the first TWO people on Wraith had no reasoning behind the lynch. Shouldn't Lowell be just as accountable, if not more so for sheeping onto the lynch?

We also have the reasoning that Charlie voted only twice, and yet tubby only voted twice the entire day, and he had even less reasoning to vote Wraith (hint, he didn't even post anything other than the vote). So should he be held accountable for his votes as the same we hold against Charlie?


Beside the fact that Charlie has only appeared anti-town, his votes took off like wildfire once Oso presented said above arguments. Doesn't that appear just a tad easy to everyone? We practically ended the day less than a week in with almost no discussion on any other player, and we did it without a scan or anything. It comes off too suspicious to me. I think getting a claim out of Charlie was the best thing we were going to get for information regarding him today.


We also have this:
[0] Charlie - (mothrax), (Lowell), (Anon), (AGar), (CCAR), (Tazaro)

-mothrax was a RVS vote, and today, he was adamant that he didn't think Charlie was scum.
-pj and Tazaro aren't even pursuing the lynch... one wants AGar currently, the other wants tubby.
-Anon is dead
-only Lowell and AGar are on the Charlie lynch, meanwhile we have a whole new slew of people on it...

Then we have Posts 629 - 645, Charlie getting to Lynch -2:
Charlie - Oso, Agar, Tazaro, Toogeloo, Benmage, Toon Fighter

Lowell joins shortly after to put him at -1. As soon as I got my claim from him, I unvoted and went after a possibly new tasty wagon. So really, most the pressure on him is the same as it was yesterday. All we did was conclude what should have been done yesterday, get a claim. Now that we have it we can move on with the rest of the day and analyze and apply pressure elsewhere (which I had thought was going to be Tazaro, but pj backed off and now we have minimal pressure spread around instead of focused) because we gain almost no insight off the lynch if we do go forward with Charlie (half the people on him are the same that were there day 1).


I would like more votes on Stef. His voting patterns yesterday were weak, always posting on players with small chance of wagons (and he wouldn't push those lynches), or the one vote on Benmage where all he did was attach himself to with a stamp of approval and his disdain for policy lynching. Beyond that, he has been lurkish and avoiding the larger topics of discussion. I will attempt to build a larger case later, as well as look at a few of my other suspicions, but I still want to see how the AGar thing goes since I am semi-interested in that as well (as I have stated AGar being one of my suspicions today).

[Toogeloo]

We also have this:
[0] Charlie - (mothrax), (Lowell), (Anon), (AGar), (CCAR), (Tazaro)

-mothrax was a RVS vote, and today, he was adamant that he didn't think Charlie was scum.
-pj and Tazaro aren't even pursuing the lynch... one wants AGar currently, the other wants tubby.
-Anon is dead
-only Lowell and AGar are on the Charlie lynch, meanwhile we have a whole new slew of people on it...

EBWOP: Tazaro is pursuing it, I knew that but had him mixed up with someone on tubby for some reason.

[Toogeloo]

I'd also like to point out that if we want to consider the thoughts of the dead town, I present this:

Charlie

0: randomvote
1: offtopic
2: page 3 is null-tell page
3: talks about his mafia sense
4: jokepost
5: believes mothrax is deflecting to diginova
6: page 3 is null-tell
7: claims Lowell’s vote against him is unreasonable
8: rebukes Anon’s claims of his scumminess
9: sarcasm to Anon’s joke
10: suspicion of Anon

11: claims lurking for new content, claims diginova not a suspect

12: claims will get activity up
13: explains lurking playstyle for game
14: analysis of game so far, rightfully points out Raven’s case in #100 is weak, believes dignova’s JK claim, votes Wraith, FoS mothrax/Raven/Zorblag
15: asks for AGar’s suspicions
16: answers Toon Fighter on reading his game
17: calls for more votes on Wraith
18: attacks Raven, claims any lynch (including himself) is better than no lynch
19: specifies case against Wraith
20: comments on votecount, urges townies to vote and unify
21: suspicions on Wraith lowered
22: asks for case against him from Tazaro
23: believes Tazaro’s case against him is pro-town
24: asks Benmage why he would not rather lynch Wraith
25: asks for specification from AGar
26: asks Benmage about Lowell

Charlie did a crapload of lurking early game and did not get activity up until greatly pressured. While this is scummy, his play since then has read like a semi-zealous scumhunter, and I commend him for suspecting the right people (Lowell).

Conclusion: Leaning Pro-Town

Lowell

0: randomvote
1: votes diginova for overreaction
2: answers prod

3: votes Charlie for overreaction (where?)
4: prod avoidance, states will join any BW
5: votes mothrax, joins mothrax BW for no reason
6: explains BW vote as mothrax BW has more people
7: pushes mothrax BW with no reasoning other than it is a BW, accuses lurkers and fence-sitters of scumminess despite being king of them all

8: states that he will make no attempt to analyze and will join any wagon because it is Day 1

9: a very scummy OMGUS
10: restates that he will join any wagon

11: states that he is town and gives no evidence or reasoning to back it up

12: claims that Wraith should convince him that he is town
13: accuses Wraith of scumminess while continuing to contribute absolutely nothing

14: explains playstyle as naturally scummy

I’ve outlined my convictions against Lowell many, many times. He has voted for four different people, and the farthest he’s come to reasoning those votes is an OMGUS. He makes accusations without bothering to back them up at any time. His OMGUS against me is very scummy, because he basically says that “Wraith is crazy” and uses it as so-called evidence of my scumminess. I also find his Post 12 very scummy because he’s basically asking for the town to build him a case on himself being pro-town, likely so he can say “yeah, that’s what I planned all along.”

Conclusion: Scum

Wraith thought Charlie was town and Lowell was scum, so not really a point in favor of a Charlie lynch in my opinion, especially with Lowell trying to push it.

[Toogeloo]

Toogeloo I have not really found suspicious so far. But seriously, unvoting Tazaro as soon as pj does just because the steam runs out of that particular wagon? Not only does he just unvote, he drops the case completely, without a reason why.

FoS: Toogeloo

I'm going to

unvote

pj for now, because that doesn't appear to be going anywhere, and he's offering a lot more than raven was.

I seem to be suspicious of most of the players in the game now but I'd most like to lynch toonfighter. Additional to the points I made about him earlier in this post, for all everyone says about lowell, toonfighter's posted less. He wasn't on the wraith wagon because he thought wraith was town but made no effort to convince any. In fact, reading his post on wraith, it's almost as if he knew wraith was town. He seemed pretty darn certain. His vote on mothrax day 2 makes no attempt to analyse what went on day 1, he just wants to hop back onto his old wagon.

vote toonfighter

Rather than quote all his posts I've referred to and make this post more unmanageably longer than it is already, his ISO is only 11 posts long for reference purposes.

I was on board a wagon, when the leader of said wagon loses confidence, so do I.

And apparently, the message isn't sinking in. Toon Fighter is 100% town, so get the fuck off him.

[Toogeloo]

@Toog, don't soft-sell me as scum. Take a stance or don't ffs. Am I scum? Or am I just a suspect so you can have a backup plan at the end of your list?

At the end of day 1, you were neutral, leaning scum, based solely on your drop in activity after a guns-a-blazin' attitude. Why does everyone's opinion have to be 100% scum vs. 100% town though? I said I would be fine with pressure on you, but you will notice, my stance has been since the day started that I have been wanting players like moth, Stef, and tubby voted moreso, with Stef and moth at the top of my list. I even ranked you relatively low on my scumspects list. However, if pressure did get applied to you, of course I would be interested in following through with it if it meant abandoning my current cases. It could lead one way to your being town or scum, and removing/bolding a name that was deeper on my list. It's Day 2 with a mediocre Day 1, in a game of almost half the player base being inactive (look how many prods Porochaz has to do). How can anyone be so certain of any alignment? The only person I trust is Toon Fighter, unfortunately he is absolutely useless.

This is the reason discussion is more important. Charlie could be scum, but his activity reads and commitment to scum hunting are really no different than that of tubby, Stef, Toon Fighter, Lowell, and mothrax. How do you determine which is the best lynch, because they aren't all scum obviously? What are we going to gain from a Charlie lynch? Look how easily everyone piled on him... What did we learn from Wraith's lynch? Who was scum on that wagon, or what ties did we achieve? I provided reasoning that we shouldn't lynch Charlie based on Wraith's flip, but it's being ignored in favor of anti-town play (half the game is guilty of this).


At any rate, after a reread on the day, my suspect list has altered a bit.

Stef and moth are still at the top. Content promised and never delivered, as well as Stef's over the top pro-town play from Day 1, and both players attempting to ride votes off the radar in most cases.

Zorblag is creeping up on my list. He seems to be the most forgotten player in the game. He pops in like once every two days or so, drops a big post and then disappears again. Those posts do have insight, but there doesn't actually seem to be a hunting feel to them, and more just posts for information, like he is trying to be an illusive IC. Most people don't even acknowledge his existence either.

tubby has dropped a bit, putting him about on the same level as you, AGar. He has taken a stance on defending Lowell, and his activity is picking up a bit. Oso also remains low, mostly due to my suspicion of the claim still.

Tazaro was neutral going into the day, and I was content with riding his wagon for information until pj abandoned it. Still lean neutralish, but some good info was gotten out of it all.


And before this gets any further out of hand (and I can't have made it anymore obvious), Toon Fighter and I are Masons, and one or both of us may have an additional power (or we may just be powerless Masons ). Toon Fighter could stand to be a little more active, but him parroting me and me defending him against every vote he ever got should speak for itself. My suspect list I posted earlier was a direct C/P from the Mason board when TF asked me who I was thinking might be scum after Day 1. We both agree on mothrax, though I couldn't tell if he was just parroting me as well, if he disliked moth for all the votes that were on TF, or if he legit thought moth was scum.

AGar, what are your opinions of Stef and Zorblag? And how would you feel about a moth wagon?

[Toogeloo]

And before this gets any further out of hand (and I can't have made it anymore obvious), Toon Fighter and I are Masons, and one or both of us may have an additional power (or we may just be powerless Masons ).

What makes you feel like you have to claim?

Because half the players knew, the other half were being oblivious, even after all the clues. No point in even one person being in the dark. Besides, as I said, I like claims as they help fit pieces of the puzzle together, and as a result, 2 people should be removed from suspicion (or you can think we are both scum /shrug, even after me blatantly defending Toon since the RVS stage).

Unvote
Vote: Moth

It seems to me that there are enough people interested in this that we can attempt to get it going again... for the umpteenth time. Moth was the 2nd highest vote getter of Day 1 and he got away without a claim and sunk into the shadows for most the game. His lynch today would give us insight not only on the voters from today, but the voters from yesterday as well.

[Toogeloo]

Asking "why not lowell" when asked about charlie makes no sense and doesn't really answer the question, considering he's at L-1 (2?) and I'm nowhere.

876 and 878 are pure diversion masked as participation.

Yes, I am clearly not participating. Why are you in such a rush to end the day? Have you gotten all the information you need to establish your non-content posts for tomorrow?

[Toogeloo]

Asking "why not lowell" when asked about charlie makes no sense and doesn't really answer the question, considering he's at L-1 (2?) and I'm nowhere.

876 and 878 are pure diversion masked as participation.

Yes, I am clearly not participating. Why are you in such a rush to end the day? Have you gotten all the information you need to establish your non-content posts for tomorrow?

^^ Confirming that no matter what page a game is on, someone will call it a "rush" to lynch. We're on D2 with 37 pages, what pace would you have us move?

What more can we do with charlie? We have almost the necessary number of votes, his claim is pointless, and no one has really offered any reason why they don't want to lynch him other than they see other players they

also

want to lynch. If he escapes today he'll escape forever.

It's not about what more we can do with Charlie. It's about who's voices we haven't heard from, what further discussion can be had (instead of tunneling Charlie), and what we can extrapolate from it all in the content we have for the days to come.

Having one topic of discussion for the day isn't really all that beneficial. Days shouldn't typically be short unless a scan condemns a player. If Charlie flips VT, are we prepared for tomorrow?

[Toogeloo]

Stef, where's that promised content, bud?

[Toogeloo]

Day 1 Votes

(for reference)

Wraith

- (AGar), (AGar),

Charlie

, Lowell, (Toogeloo), AGar, Tazaro, Sandman, (Oso), tubby, Toogeloo, Zorblag, Wraith
Benmage - (Toogeloo),

(Anon), (Anon)

, (AGar), Stef,

(Wraith), CCAR

, (Oso), Toon Fighter,

Furculow

Lowell - (Toon Fighter), (Benmage), (mothrax),

(Wraith), Wraith

Stef - (Toogeloo), Benmage, (Toogeloo)
AGar - (Zorblag),

(Charlie)

, (Fugitive),

(Wraith)

Anon/Furculow

- (Stef), (Zorblag), (Sandman)

CCAR/pj

- (Stef)

Charlie

- (mothrax), (Lowell),

(Anon)

, (AGar),

(CCAR)

, (Tazaro)
diginova/Oso - (AGar), (tubby), (AGar), (Lowell), (mothrax),

(CCAR)

, (Toogeloo), (Anon)
Fugitive/Tazaro -

(Wraith), (CCAR)

, (AGar),

(Wraith)

millar13/tubby - (diginova), (Zorblag), (Stef)
mothrax - (Toogeloo), (Sandman), (Zorblag), (Benmage), (Fugitive/Tazaro), (Toon Fighter),

(Anon)

, (Lowell), (Toogeloo)
Toon Fighter - (Benmage), (mothrax), (mothrax)
Zorblag - (Lowell), (Fugitive)

Day 2 Votes

(for reference):

Charlie

- Oso, AGar, Tazaro, (Toogeloo), Benmage, (Toon Fighter), Lowell, tubby, Sandman, mothrax
Tazaro -

(pj)

, (Toogeloo), (mothrax) , Toon Fighter,

Charlie

AGar -

pj

mothrax - (Toogeloo), (Toon Fighter), Toogeloo

CCAR/pj

- (Sandman), Stef
tubby - Zorblag, (Tazaro), (Stef), (Toogeloo), (mothrax)
Lowell - (Charlie)
Oso -

(pj)

Stef - (Toogeloo)
Toogeloo - (AGar)
Toon Fighter - (mothrax), (Sandman)


First thing I want to say is we are not lynching Tazaro today. His wagon is forming far too quickly, and besides that fact, we are not following this ridiculous trend of lynching a person immediately after another player who died thought he was town. Charlie was lynched yesterday even after Wraith analyzed him as town the day before. pj died last night, and his last thoughts were that Tazaro was town. Tazaro, you can claim right now and we can sway this wagon away, or you don't have to, and you can try to get attention where it needs to be without the claim. I prefer the claim, but you already know my stance on that.

Toon and I analyzed the first two days worth of information, and added in other information we already know, and we both believe that Lowell and/or Oso is scum. If Lowell is scum, it also strengthens the chance that tubby is scum as well due to tubby's defense of him yesterday.


The reasoning we have for Oso is that his votes are fishy, and his actions aren't indicative of a Town Jailkeeper. I mean really, thank you for Roleblocking me last night Oso... We went over this on Day 1. A Jailkeeper is more of an offensive role because it hinders town power, so you are better off targeting scum with it to prevent their night kills and other abilities, or targeting claimed Vanillas who are quite vocal. So why are you targeting town, especially after power was hinted?

We also have your votes. On Day 1, you had a vote on both leading lynches, but you unvoted once Wraith became bleeding town, I suspect because you didn't want your name attached to his lynch. That's something scum only concern themselves with. You ended up not having a vote down at all on the end of Day 1, a scum tactic to avoid your vote being analyzed at the end of the day.

Day 2 you presented the case against Charlie. By this point most of the town could be considered apathetic, so presumably, with your little case, and a nudge from some scum friends, the Charlie lynch would become a lock. Through out the entire day, there was a ton of resistance to the possibility of another lynch happening, mostly coming from Lowell (who low and behold continues his anti-town play going into today even after the massive fuck up yesterday).


Both Toon and I are on the same page with this. We want focus on Lowell and Oso today.

Vote: Lowell

[Toogeloo]

Oso, if you block suspicious players, and a Night Kill doesn't happen, then you have just given us something to work with. By protecting with your ability, you are actually hindering us more. It's not as if we know who scum are and you can choose to block them every night. The likelihood of town having killing power seems rather low, I imagine we would have seen it by now, so you should be fishing on the suspicious players. You could stop a roleblock or the night kill more likely that stopping the kill on a random player. Scum aren't stupid.

[Toogeloo]

Possible power roles inside the Masons aside, scum have to start killing you guys at some point, probably sooner than later, because one confirms the other. You are too dangerous to leave alive. When they start doing that they are either going to have to kill me outright or play the outguess the jailkeeper game unless they have a way to neutralize me.

This is just awful too by the way. Why would they bother trying to kill Mason Power if you are doing the blocking for them? And neutralize you? They could just shoot you, duh. Having you around closer to endgame is a stupid gambit, you could block their kills, so they wouldn't have it.

Oso, Toon and I both believe (at the moment) you really are the scum Roleblocker, but are willing to give you a day for now. Toon wants Lowell targeted today primarily, and I concur.

Lowell sheeped his vote onto Wraith after Charlie, that's about the time when scum hop aboard wagons (they rarely like to start them, and they hate to be on the end of them). There may be other reasons, but suffice to say, Lowell should be the target today.

[Toogeloo]

Hey, Oso, enough about you (especially since you don't have vote yet), why don't you tell me what you think of Lowell and any other suspicion you have today. I know you were dead off with Charlie yesterday and all, but no excuse to stop looking for scum, ya'know?

[Toogeloo]

Hey, Oso, enough about you (especially since you don't have vote yet), why don't you tell me what you think of Lowell and any other suspicion you have today. I know you were dead off with Charlie yesterday and all, but no excuse to stop looking for scum, ya'know?

Not a chance.

1)Exactly what did I block last night?
2)How did my blocking you screw up town exactly?
3)What info did you expect to get?
4)What exactly, makes you think I blocked you maliciously rather than protected you so that we didn't get half a mason team killed lasted night?

I have no intention of sharing that information just yet, but thanks for rolefishing.

Questions 1 - 3 but applied to Night 1. Plus in regards to Agar, do you think I chose him for protection or is that also a case where I hoped to maliciously block a town role? And then lied about it?

You can't drop an accusation that you and Toon think I'm a Scum RB and expect me to just ignore it.

Yes... yes, I can. You have no other pressure, and yet you get so hot and bothered by it, despite me stating that Jailkeeper is a good safe claim for the Mafia Roleblocker since Day 1. Grow a pair, and look for some scum why don't you.

@Toog - I heavily disagree with Oso-scum. Lowell's lynch is still meh to me.

I'd much rather lynch Stef, I think we found scum there.

More thoughts on Oso since you believe so vehemently in it, please. Why do you heavily disagree? Is it something about him "protecting" you Night 1? Is there a reason that he can't be Mafia Roleblocker? I mean, I still have my doubts, I can't be 100% sure, so if you could shed light from a different perspective, I may be willing to re-evaluate my stance. It's neither here nor there at the moment since Lowell should be the target today, I would also like to better understand why you may disagree with that considering the play at this point. A/D that Lowell's play has been questionable and scummy?

[Toogeloo]

We covered this tubby. Jailkeeper simply roleblocks and protects the targeted player only, not make them untargetable.

[Toogeloo]

@Everyone:

We have had 2 mis-lynches thus far, and in most games I have played on MS, when scum hasn't been killed after two mis-lynches, town are (near) dangerously close to Mylo/Lylo situations.

Does anyone here feel that there is a possibility 5 scum exist and that we may be in a Mylo situation at the moment? Does anyone here feel that there is more likely to be 4 scum and that we still have one more "strike?"

[Toogeloo]

He is one of the people we had discussed in Mason chat over the evening. In fact, Toon specifically mentioned Day 3's focus should involve him, Oso, and Lowell (I had a slightly larger list, but asked Toon to focus it down). Lowell is definitely where Toon and I feel mutually is the best course to start with. I felt that Tazaro had too much WIFOM cast over him during Day 2 to sort the muck out, and we would hopefully get a better read on him today. However, with pj's death from the end of the evening, Tazaro dropped a small bit only because many of pj's final comments were about Tazaro being town. It's more WIFOM of course, but I wanted to avoid another Day 2 similar to how Charlie was proclaimed town by a townie who had died the day before as well. The rush of votes on Tazaro made me feel very uneasy about the whole thing.

Lowell is where I want the bulk of pressure to start today, and then we can see where we go from there.

If you are curious who else was on my list: Zorblag, Stef, and AGar were all players I felt could use more focus as well (6 players in total that I had reviewed). Toon's analysis was the one that brought it down to just Lowell, Oso, and Tazaro. tubby was an addendum to suspicion based solely on Lowell, though I think Toon and I could have afforded to talk about him more.

Based on re-reads and other information, we both agree moth is almost assuredly town at this point, and he can sigh easily knowing we put more trust in him (we love you moth ^_~). We had also talked about the pj more than likely being town. Not much discussion was had about anyone else I did not mention.

[Toogeloo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8E_zMLCRNg

[Toogeloo]

I'm claiming the shit out of this one.

I'm a

bodyguard

, meaning I can protect someone but die if they are attacked.

I have never used my ability, because I'm selfish and scum never bother attacking me so I figure I'm safer out in the open.

Next target, please.

And you have been nothing but a positive force for the town, so it's best to keep you alive, mirite?


When you say, "next target, please," that was your cue to provide reasoning for why we should get off you? All you did was provide reasoning for why you will live every night, which only makes you look scummier.

[Toogeloo]

Zorblag hasn't posted in forever >_>... I also wouldn't have wanted the day to be rushed. Even if (when) Lowell flips scum, there is a very high probability someone on the wagon is scum trying to distance themselves, so something worth at least looking at for tomorrow.

[Toogeloo]

Well, Oso is probably town at this point. Toon and I discussed coming after AGar today based on what we did during the night, and Oso based on AGar's buddy buddy behavior if what we figured of AGar was correct, but him flipping SK instead of mafia almost assures Oso to be who he says he is. We have had only had 1 kill a night until last night. SKs have to kill, but on Night 1 AGar was blocked, and night 2 either I was protected from a kill, or the two teams stacked the kills on pj. So I think this buys Oso town cred for now. It is entirely possible he is still scum roleblocker, but scum will have to take him out soon or they are screwed, so the longer Oso lives, the less likely he is town, but there is almost no reason to lynch him today.

I told Toon that I put a little bit of meta into the fact that Zorblag might be town if Porochaz intended to replace him. It led me to believe that town might be encroaching a do or die and that Zorblag was needed to be replaced to ensure end game didn't fail.


Beyond that, Toon was on vacation I guess, so we didn't talk about much, we just put faith in action. So going into today, I think Stef might be the next best choice. Benmage parked his vote on Stef at the end of Day 1, and was the only player on him, a place that was obviously going no where. It could have been a way to distance himself from Stef as well as stay off the radar of Wraith's lynch. Stef's Day 1 posts also felt forced for the reasoning he put on Benmage, and it could have been a potential bus if he knew later they could swing the votes off (lynching someone for a policy lynch wouldn't have gotten much traction).


tubby is probably someone else I could think of going after. Scum have really thrown me for a loop this game. I thought Benmage was town, so it's very likely all my town reads are off. This would make Sandman my last suspect of the remaining 3 scum if I have been wrong on my initial town reads.

[Toogeloo]

OOPS, hit the submit button.
The masons are mostly Toogeloo; Toon Fighter is like Mr. Hyde.

QFT

I'd beg scum to shoot Toon before me, but we all know that won't happen. I may as well be a Double voter right now.

I think tubby is as good a place as any to start the day, so I will support the pressure there.

Vote: tubby

Let's not wagon to hell and back this time please. I think Stef should be smacked for the quickhammer yesterday, so no repeats this time. tubby needs the pressure for sure, but that doesn't mean we should silence everyone else with a lynch less than 3 days after the game day starts.

[Toogeloo]

so i am gonna get lynched because i have a good meta read on lowell and i am unattentive to this game? perfect

vote taz

We have too many unattentives in the game. If you didn't want to play it, why didn't you replace? (this kind of goes out to everyone to be honest)


At this point we are narrowing it down. I would recommend maybe claiming and presenting an argument for why Tazaro should be lynched instead. If you are town, it's playing to win, ya'know?

[Toogeloo]

It's not uncommon at all for scum to vote for each other and stay off the main wagons. It's one of the reasons town players get crucified later.

I remember stating that I disliked how easily Stef gave up on the tubby vote on Day 1 simply because tubby came in with a tiny amount of content, one tidbit of which stated that he thought Stef was town. It was the reason I got on Stef and FoS'd tubby.

Benmage had little vestment in the Stef wagon; he really didn't even put forth effort, and he was the only on it once interest in Day 1 was gone and Wraith's lynch was better than no lynch at all.

I would not doubt Stef and tubby both being scum personally, especially as we begin to wane on suspects. Tubby refusing to claim when he is at -2 doesn't surprise me, he has been resistant to being pro-town all game.


I want Toon's thoughts as well since his Mason talk last night was minimal, and I also want to wait for Zorblag/replacement. In fact... could I beg of the host to just replace Toon >_>?

[Toogeloo]

I still do not want any hammer until tubby comes back either. If the games lulls into non-existence, then maybe a hammer is in order, but I prefer to spend a little time talking about our suspicions instead of just plopping down the votes.

[Toogeloo]

nope hammer cause i am VT

how come you aren't trying to at least fight?

I don't get the players in this game. Wraith asked to be hammered. Charlie never became serious. Lowell and tubby just kinda dared us to hammer them.


Does no one really care about this game, and just want it over? If so, why not just collectively ask Porochaz to call it a draw and everyone walk away? I don't really think it's fair to players and host who have put months into this game, for people to have these kind of attitudes. It's a game that you signed up for. Play to win.

Anywho, does anyone want to talk about anything else, or should we just force this game to the end?

[Toogeloo]

We are only 1 vote from hammer, no need to rush anything. Moth, why don't you do your research, come back with what your opinions are. Let's also talk about other potential lynch candidates, even if they aren't today, it's good to have insight on people.

Thus far, most people are only agreeable (or disagreeable) to the tubby lynch, but we haven't heard any relevant cases or arguments against other players.


To start us off, I will state that my next major suspicion is Stef. Like most players, he has slipped through the game on inactivity and just throwing his vote down every day. His Day 1 activity seemed very forced, though he was the second player on a Benmage wagon, and Benmage ended the day on Stef. Question is, was this a scum ploy to distance themselves from each other while staying off the main Wraith wagon?

Zorblag's probably the most inactive player in the game overall, so it is difficult to state anything affirmative on him, but as we lose suspects, I have the nagging feeling he should get more attention as well.

Tazaro; I have really been neutral on him all game. He posts alot which I like... he's one of only a handful of players that does so. pj also called him town and died the next day. I suppose scum could have killed him after declaring Tazaro likely town in an attempt to get Tazaro some more time in the game.


Other opinions? Moth and tubby, as the biggest forces against tubby's lynch, bring some arguments forward. Let's be honest here, the reason tubby is leading the lynch today is for his anti-town play, not his scummy play. The same argument can practically be used on almost half the player base, and so we need other opinions on other players to focus this. Is tubby the best lynch today?



I'm a relative newbie on this site, but so far, I have been extremely unimpressed with a large amount of various player's game ethics. I can't diss anyone's style if that's how they want to play, but out of the 5 or 6 games I have played, they all almost end up like this game. Apathetic, follow the wagon... loss of overall interest. Not really my favorite types of games. A couple players like that is understandable, but when you got about half the game or more doing it, it's just unfun all together. So, I challenge anyone who is town in the game to either finish this thing, and step up, or just ask to be replaced so we can hopefully get someone in here to do it for you. As it stands now, I have a hard enough time bringing myself to sign up for games on this site, and certainly not recommend other friends to come here, based on games similar to this.

[Toogeloo]

Ok, yeah, moth could work I suppose. Yesterday, I posted that Toon and I didn't think Moth was likely as scum as we originally thought because of voting patterns and that we had our sights opened up to a larger group of players.


After looking through the game, I think my plan actually had worked on Day 2. Toon and I are just Masons, we have no power at all, but at this stage we are just as dangerous to scum as if we did have power, so I have no problem outing that info. I think I may have WIFOMed the scum into killing me as possible power and a Mason to boot, so I think you blocked that kill Oso. We have no info on other players either, so moth could be scum, and we just second guessed ourselves. Moth is fighting against tubby's lynch, which indicates he either truly doesn't believe tubby to be scum because of the ease of the lynch, or he really knows tubby is town.

I'm still not fully convinced if moth would be the correct diversion away though as Stef is still my secondary suspicion of the day. It's strange that on Day 1 and Day 2 I could have been on a moth lynch in a heartbeat, but today I have my doubts.

[Toogeloo]

I think no one really cares to stop you Zorblag, hammer him, we will see how good we are doing, and go from there.

[Toogeloo]

Glad toon was covering me and what not >_> ... I've been away for a few days because my comp has been down.

Toon and I discussed (well had a single back and forth) Oso last night about how he had lived for so long, so him dying last night probably saved us from mislynching. I was fairly certain I was going to be the dead one today. Mass Claiming probably isn't going to do us any good today to be honest. We are still in a tight position of too much anti-town play by pretty much everyone.

Really, I could forsee just about anyone left as scum other than Toon, and of the 5 of you others, 3 are probably scum.

Stef
moth
Tazaro
Zorblag
Sandman
The Masons

So before we decide to Mass Claim, let's do some discussion. Everyone give their thoughts on all 5 of those players (the 5 others that are not you on the list). Let's break this down systematically before claims begin.

[Toogeloo]

So starting (without looking back for now, analysis later) just minor thoughts:

Stef:

Has been another lurker since Day 1, attaching his vote and disappearing. He and Benmage cross voted several times, but was it an attempt at distancing?

moth:

Very possible that he is scum, though I discounted it because of voting pattern and tunneling.

Tazaro:

PJ built a case on Tazaro and then quickly withdrew it after rereading his play.

Zorblag:

I meta'd that Zorblag was probably going to be replaced during Night 3 because Town might have been hitting a do or die scenario. Now he seems to be directing town more frequently.

Sandman:

Shared many of the same thoughts I had during the beginning of the game, but still ended up being on every mislynch.


If I had to guess right now, I would say Sandman and Stef are scum based solely on play. Picking a third would be tougher.

[Toogeloo]

@Toogeloo, if we're going to mass claim we should do it before discussion. Discussion at this point only helps scum determine what claims they want to make whereas town don't have to worry about such things, we just tell the truth.

What advantage for town do you think there is to be gained through discussion before a claim at this point? Unless you don't think that the mass claim should happen I don't see where you're coming from.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

I'm not asking for anything other than opinion on character. The idea is to formulate the order of claims. The person with the most suspicion should claim first, but basis for that suspicion also gives insight of the accuser. The most suspicious should claim first simply because they are forced to choose a claim before the more trusted players do.

[Toogeloo]

Anything is arguable at this point. You could be scum because you are demanding moth's claim first; get the remaining town to claim and then you can base your own claims around it. (ala, oh look no one claimed Cop, I can claim that I have innocent scans on the following players and force a mislynch for the win!)

[Toogeloo]

I think I would like to give Toon a chance to speak on the matter before I say anymore. I do more than enough representing for the both of us, so I am hoping he might actually be able to make a decision on his own.

@Sandman, conveniently, you didn't place yourself on the claim order... where do you think you should fall?

[Toogeloo]

(unless you count my shame in how poorly I have played this game)

The entire town failed equally, so if you are town, don't fret it much. Between anti-town performances, failure to thrive and fight for life, and I'd say just good 'ole fashion not caring attitude, this was scums game to lose. Town hasn't really done anything right since the game begun, we can't even take credit for the one scum death.

[Toogeloo]

I'm assuming Toon and Toogeloo are nothing but masons ???

Toon and I are just Masons, we have no power at all

I've been reviewing most the day, and I have a fairly good idea who I think should hang, but I want Zorblag to post still since he is the last one left.

[Toogeloo]

So, now that Zorblag has claimed, I think he should be lynched. I have compared his play in other games (since he is nice enough to keep his wiki updated), and his play this game is pretty standard for his scum play. He comes off educated about how things should be handled, stating it a pro-town way, but remaining entirely off the grid. It should be a tip off that after every single day prior he has been absent or quiet, and now today he is trying to lead having more posts than probably every day prior combined.

Compare his town play to his scum play in his wiki and tell me what you think. But at this stage, with the game we have had, I think it's probably the least risky play. My other two suspects are Sandman, who has had similar play, and Zorblag is defending him as likely town, and probably Stef.


Let's not kid ourselves... we have to hit all 3 in a row, and I just blatantly said who I think the three scum remaining are, and the order in which they should probably be lynched. But if I am wrong about even one, or if anyone is wrong about even one... it's game over. The Night Kills are already predetermined as well (more than likely). I will die tonight, Toon more than likely tomorrow night (unless after two successful lynches, the last scum thinks he can manipulate Toon to a mislynch).

No one should vote until it's been discussed, but everyone needs to do their own research at this point and not be told what to do by anyone else. If even one person here is too lazy to do any work to try and win for town, then just lynch me today and call it a game please.

[Toogeloo]

@Toogeloo, at this point in the game I need to address this a bit more directly and defensively than I would otherwise because, as you say, we almost certainly can't afford to make a mistake here. Out of curiosity, do you think that my game here has been significantly different from my town games? I have been less present in this game that I should have but that's not at all unique to my scum games. Actually, I was replaced or mod-killed in all my other non-hydra games that are going on recently because this game included a rough stretch for me in terms of finding the time and energy to play; I've got no excuse beyond RL but I will claim that it's not alignment related. I was fully expecting to have been replaced in this game as well (clearly I should have been given the time I was away) but when I got back on my game feet it turned out I hadn't so I'm trying to make the best of the situation that we're in here. I'm not going to apologize for putting in an effort now when I wasn't able to earlier though it will be frustrating if that ends up leading to my lynch and a loss.

I'm doing my best at this point to make sure that we make the plays that maximize our chances of winning in terms of narrowing down the choices we need to look at. To the extent that I've been about that's been one of the things that I've been trying to do all game. I assume that when you say I've been off the grid it's not because I've not had opinions about the game (I claim that I have even though I wasn't pushing them particularly hard which I don't usually do in any case; I'm more interested in seeing the decisions that others make than I am in having people follow my lead.)

As far as your scum reads beyond me go, have you taken a look at Mr.Sandman's play as scum? It feels to me like he's making more of an effort to find scum this game than he did in Newbie Game 935 even if he's not posting more (though that was a concern of mine at the start of the game.) I'm not going to argue with your read on Stef but I wonder if you've got any reason at this point to think that either mothrax or Tazaro should be town beyond some sort of process of elimination.

I appreciate that you're taking the time to actually play this game especially as you almost have to be town at this point; you're certainly right that the entire town needs to be doing that now. You're wrong about your suspicions of me but as long as we can talk and try to sort this out it doesn't need to be the end of the world (well, or a game loss in this case.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

There was a time that I meta'd you possibly being replaced as making you town. On Night 3, after Lowell's lynch, it seemed obvious we were about to head into Do or Die, and Porochaz said he was going to replace you. To me, that screams that he needs to replace an idle town so that they can make a unified decision in Do or Die, but just from what I feel today, that has gone out the window.

As far as Sandman goes, for the longest time I thought he was town and would never had considered him scum. Most of his initial reads were the same as mine, yet I have been wrong with almost everything I have thought since the game began. As time went on, I started to rethink the game. As of the last few days however, Sandman has been consentful of almost all the lynches while offering no opinion of his own other than what was already popular.


The fact that you attempted to narrow him out of the equation and throw focus solely on moth, Tazaro, and Stef as our options makes me the most wary however (I know you buttered up the response later that you would plan on investigating even the people you like, but scum say anything, so pardon the skepticism).

[Toogeloo]

Alright, logically, since most everyone is willing to accept Toon and I as town, out of the 5 remaining of you (assuming each of you believes they are town, which is obviously not the case), 3 are likely scum. This means from each of your perspectives, you only need to determine who you think is town other than yourself (not including Toon and myself). This also means each of you 5 has a greater degree of success of hitting scum than Toon or I would since we have to figure which TWO of you are likely town.

So I want to pose this for the next stage of conversation. I want each of you 5 (excluding myself and toon) to say one person who you think is the most likely to be town. Even if you think all 4 of the others are equally scummy, try to consider one name of someone besides Yourself, Toon, and I who could possibly be town.

[Toogeloo]

@Mod

- Requesting Prods of Toon Fighter and mothrax please.

Not really worth waiting around for Moth's response at the moment. When it comes down to Stef, moth, and Tazaro (the three who did not seem townie to anyone else), I think I am gonna go with Tazaro here.

Vote: Tazaro

I'm really just exhausted of this game, and I think this is the best choice today.

[Toogeloo]

Maybe he thinks you actually ARE scummy, and doens't care about a scum threat. IF you pop up townie, then we can take your threats seriously. Also, that move was totally OMGUS.

vote: Tazaro

>_> ... if Tazaro pops up town, it's likely game over dude...

[Toogeloo]

Maybe he thinks you actually ARE scummy, and doens't care about a scum threat. IF you pop up townie, then we can take your threats seriously. Also, that move was totally OMGUS.

vote: Tazaro

>_> ... if Tazaro pops up town, it's likely game over dude...

It's not a good time to be uncertain, man.

Don't take my post for uncertainty. I was clarifying something for Toon.

[Toogeloo]

lol, everyone in town looks like shit, if the game ends after today, I am kicking everyone on town team in the nuts for failing on the unwritten rule (of this game) of "Play to Win." It's been rather ridiculous this game.

[Toogeloo]

Given that it's lylo, I still have more confidence that I'd hit scum with mothrax, but in the situation that has arisen, I think one of the masons should unvote and be the one that hammers, reducing the possibilities of scum quick hammering. That way, if anything suspicious comes up, town will still have an element of control

If there are 3 scum, it only takes one town on a mislynch.

The fact that there isn't a quick hammer yet makes me feel better about Tazaro (and to a lesser degree moth too, sadly).

[Toogeloo]

The fact that there isn't a quick hammer yet makes me feel better about Tazaro (and to a lesser degree moth too, sadly).

EBWOP: makes me feel better about Tazaro being scum.

[Toogeloo]

kill it

[Toogeloo]

Tomorrow is going to be harder (provided we are right with today). I am absolutely going to die tonight because scum can't keep the Masons alive any longer, and I am the more vocal.

[Toogeloo]

Town was Scum MVP.

[Toogeloo]

Mason QT... It's kind of lulz

http://www.quicktopic.com/44/H/DAQcwgpKHc6Mn

[Toogeloo]

I kind of had a feeling town wasn't going to win once everyone felt Zorblag was the most likely town. Had I had my druthers, Zorblag would have been lynched instead of Tazaro, and it may have made a difference, but once everyone felt Zorblag was town, I started doubting my read on him, and just let it go.

[Toogeloo]

Apathetic town = doomed.

Lynch lurkers like Stef.

We kind of were, we just went the wrong way. Instead of Stef and Zorblag, we went with Lowell and tubby