New York 116 - Prozacs Large Normal - Who won?

[Mr.Sandman]

That's fair enough I guess. I maybe shouldn't've revealed my order but there it is

[Zorblag]

The popcorn mass claim does have the person claiming decide who will claim next, yes. It's a reasonably fast way to get an order figured out that doesn't give scum an easy way to manipulate it so that they can go last. Listing an order like the one that Mr.Sandman has is more than I'd like to see at this time (and I assume less than Toogeloo would) but I can certainly live with it.

At this point it would be useful to hear who Toon Fighter, Toogeloo and Stef would like to have claim first. Actually, mothrax's opinion there would probably be worthwhile as well. Tazaro should also probably give his preference rather than simply saying that if mothrax is willing it might as well be him.

Stef not being about might make the process as a whole less convenient. At this point I suppose that if we do go with a mass claim (which I very much think we should) I support Stef claiming the next time that he's about just so that it happens in a more timely manner (rather than waiting till his spot comes up in a popcorn system) assuming that he's not going to be replaced.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Toogeloo]

I think I would like to give Toon a chance to speak on the matter before I say anymore. I do more than enough representing for the both of us, so I am hoping he might actually be able to make a decision on his own.

@Sandman, conveniently, you didn't place yourself on the claim order... where do you think you should fall?

[Tazaro]

My opinion is that mothrax claim first.

[mothrax]

We know taz.
I would have liked to have seen stef claim first but since that isn't happening... I would like to see taz claim first.
I am willing to claim first anyways, I have nothing to hide (unless you count my shame in how poorly I have played this game)

[Toogeloo]

(unless you count my shame in how poorly I have played this game)

The entire town failed equally, so if you are town, don't fret it much. Between anti-town performances, failure to thrive and fight for life, and I'd say just good 'ole fashion not caring attitude, this was scums game to lose. Town hasn't really done anything right since the game begun, we can't even take credit for the one scum death.

[Zorblag]

Two scum deaths but, yeah, Toogeloo is right about the town attitude contributing to the state of the game thus far. In this case I can't claim that I've done anything to avert that given my lackluster performance but even so I'm not ready to hand this game to scum just yet. Our best bet is to make the best choices we can from here on out working with the assume that if we get anything wrong then it's game over. Everyone should be making decisions based on the best information that we've got. Right now I think that means the mass claim without any other conversation but once that's done (or we reach a point in it where it doesn't make sense to continue it) everyone with a town should be trying hard both to figure out who scum is as well as trying to avoid being a mislynch. Scum should clearly just claim scum to make our lives easier. The play of those who've been lynched hasn't done us any favors up till now but that doesn't mean that the rest of us have to give up and accept an avoidable loss.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Toon Fighter]

I really think now its time for a massclaim, and I believe Tazaro should be first to claim. He was in a lot of lynches, and he was accused by some confirmed towns, so I want to see what he claims.

If he has claimed already, could someone remind me of his claim? In that case, I think Sandman should go first, based on his reluctance to claim.

[Tazaro]

Preferences on whom to claim first:
Tazaro: Prefers Mothrax(1)
Toogeloo: From what I see, he prefers Stef(1) or Mr. Sandman.
Zorblag: Prefers Mothrax(2)
Toon Fighter: Prefers Tazaro(1)
Mothrax: Prefers Tazaro(2)
Mr. Sandman: Prefers Stef(2)
Looks like a tie between Tazaro, Mothrax, and Stef. So either mothrax goes through with his willingness to claim, or we compromise with second preferences, or Stef has to chime in.

[Mr.Sandman]

I think I would like to give Toon a chance to speak on the matter before I say anymore. I do more than enough representing for the both of us, so I am hoping he might actually be able to make a decision on his own.

@Sandman, conveniently, you didn't place yourself on the claim order... where do you think you should fall?

I'm happy to go whenever everyone else decides I should go

I really think now its time for a massclaim, and I believe Tazaro should be first to claim. He was in a lot of lynches, and he was accused by some confirmed towns, so I want to see what he claims.

If he has claimed already, could someone remind me of his claim? In that case, I think Sandman should go first, based on his reluctance to claim.

I think you misunderstand me. I have no reluctance to claim whatsoever. If you're referring to my list, I just thought I wouldn't have any influence over the time of my own claim so it didn't cross my mind to include myself on the list

[Tazaro]

Belated EBWOP: Oh wait, Mr. Sandman prefers Moth. I misremembered. That's three people who prefer moth. I don't think there's a fairer choice for whom to claim first than moth, especially since he's willing.

[mothrax]

Fine fine, I'm a VT... Since we are popcorning it, taz you're next.

[Tazaro]

Vanilla townie. Mr. Sandman is next.

[Tazaro]

In fact, I don't care if either Stef, Zorblag, or Mr. Sandman take the initiative to be next. I'm assuming Toon and Toogeloo are nothing but masons ???

[Tazaro]

So Sandman is next unless he's too slow.

[Mr.Sandman]

I'm VT. I'd like Stef next, and think that only if we're waiting an unreasonable amount of time, Zorblag will do instead.

[Stef]

I am here. I am a VT.

[Toogeloo]

I'm assuming Toon and Toogeloo are nothing but masons ???

Toon and I are just Masons, we have no power at all

I've been reviewing most the day, and I have a fairly good idea who I think should hang, but I want Zorblag to post still since he is the last one left.

[Zorblag]

I am a Vanilla Townie.

At this point I know that I'm not interested in lynching either of the claimed masons (who I think are very likely to be telling the truth) and like I said earlier, Mr.Sandman's play does not feel like the play I saw from him as scum in a previous game. I'd like him to post more but I don't think that he's a good lynch.

On the plus side, if I'm right about those and we're in LyLo then I don't need to be too right about anything else as the other three players should all be scum. Even if we're not in LyLo it's effectively the same position (with a potential mistake being thrown into the process.) Clearly I need to look over everyone again (including those I think should be town) but I'm feeling somewhat more comfortable at this point than I normally would be all things considered.

@mothrax, you didn't get a chance to answer before but I'm still interested in hearing an answer; going back to Post 1067, what was it that you saw in my case on tubby216 which was a factor in changing your mind?

@Tazaro, with Oso gone one of your top two suspects from yesterday is now gone. Why start the day with a focus on Mr.Sandman rather than Stef, the other of the two?

@Stef, how caught up with the game are you at this point? What is your take on the mason claims?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Toon Fighter]

5 VT's? Why does all the scum fakeclaim the same role? To confuse us townies? -.-

[Zorblag]

@Toon Fighter, well, I'd been hoping for another claim today along the lines of the cop claim that Toogeloo said he was worried about because after having a town tracker, body guard, jailkeeper and mason pair I didn't really expect the town to have any more power (given site meta) and there would have been a pretty good reasons to suspect any claims that got made for the first time today. Were I scum I almost certainly would have claimed vanilla townie here just because of that. I'd guess that the scum were able to figure that out as well (or something similar.)

Toogeloo was right when he said that the claim probably wasn't going to do us any good but we still had to make the attempt just in case scum played the claim poorly or on the off chance that there really was more information out there to be taken into account when deciding on a lynch.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Toogeloo]

So, now that Zorblag has claimed, I think he should be lynched. I have compared his play in other games (since he is nice enough to keep his wiki updated), and his play this game is pretty standard for his scum play. He comes off educated about how things should be handled, stating it a pro-town way, but remaining entirely off the grid. It should be a tip off that after every single day prior he has been absent or quiet, and now today he is trying to lead having more posts than probably every day prior combined.

Compare his town play to his scum play in his wiki and tell me what you think. But at this stage, with the game we have had, I think it's probably the least risky play. My other two suspects are Sandman, who has had similar play, and Zorblag is defending him as likely town, and probably Stef.


Let's not kid ourselves... we have to hit all 3 in a row, and I just blatantly said who I think the three scum remaining are, and the order in which they should probably be lynched. But if I am wrong about even one, or if anyone is wrong about even one... it's game over. The Night Kills are already predetermined as well (more than likely). I will die tonight, Toon more than likely tomorrow night (unless after two successful lynches, the last scum thinks he can manipulate Toon to a mislynch).

No one should vote until it's been discussed, but everyone needs to do their own research at this point and not be told what to do by anyone else. If even one person here is too lazy to do any work to try and win for town, then just lynch me today and call it a game please.

[Zorblag]

@Toogeloo, at this point in the game I need to address this a bit more directly and defensively than I would otherwise because, as you say, we almost certainly can't afford to make a mistake here. Out of curiosity, do you think that my game here has been significantly different from my town games? I have been less present in this game that I should have but that's not at all unique to my scum games. Actually, I was replaced or mod-killed in all my other non-hydra games that are going on recently because this game included a rough stretch for me in terms of finding the time and energy to play; I've got no excuse beyond RL but I will claim that it's not alignment related. I was fully expecting to have been replaced in this game as well (clearly I should have been given the time I was away) but when I got back on my game feet it turned out I hadn't so I'm trying to make the best of the situation that we're in here. I'm not going to apologize for putting in an effort now when I wasn't able to earlier though it will be frustrating if that ends up leading to my lynch and a loss.

I'm doing my best at this point to make sure that we make the plays that maximize our chances of winning in terms of narrowing down the choices we need to look at. To the extent that I've been about that's been one of the things that I've been trying to do all game. I assume that when you say I've been off the grid it's not because I've not had opinions about the game (I claim that I have even though I wasn't pushing them particularly hard which I don't usually do in any case; I'm more interested in seeing the decisions that others make than I am in having people follow my lead.)

As far as your scum reads beyond me go, have you taken a look at Mr.Sandman's play as scum? It feels to me like he's making more of an effort to find scum this game than he did in Newbie Game 935 even if he's not posting more (though that was a concern of mine at the start of the game.) I'm not going to argue with your read on Stef but I wonder if you've got any reason at this point to think that either mothrax or Tazaro should be town beyond some sort of process of elimination.

I appreciate that you're taking the time to actually play this game especially as you almost have to be town at this point; you're certainly right that the entire town needs to be doing that now. You're wrong about your suspicions of me but as long as we can talk and try to sort this out it doesn't need to be the end of the world (well, or a game loss in this case.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mr.Sandman]

My thoughts are as follows:

Toogeloo and toon, I'm as happy I think, as I could ever be in a game that they're town. Even despite the claim, I think toog has been one of the most pro-town players in the game. I also don't see it as likely that there are only 2 town powerroles in the game. The alternative to that is that a townie has lied about their claim which also seems to be very unlikely at this stage.

Stef has been scummy pretty much all game. If I had to pick one moment I think which highlighted his scumminess, I would draw everyone's attention again to the hammer of Lowell. Take that in the context of which it was said and it looks even worse. In terms of posting content, he has contributed very little. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that not much less than half of his posts areV/LA posts or telling us he intends to post. The one thing I notice in his defense is his attack on BM day 1. BM was voting him – as has already been pointed out by someone, a vote which was redundant because it was alone on a player, and therefore unlikely to come to a lynch but provided BM with a reason not to be on the mislynch of the day.

I don't like mothrax either. Again, there have been several scummy moments in the course of the game that I've picked up on. There have been one or two times where he's said he disagrees with a lynch or an opinion but that he's willing to go along with it in support if it's what the town wants. I hadn't previously picked up on this before but his hammer on Charlie doesn't look particularly good either coming out of this quote:

I said I would hammer, and after a reread some of what was said has convinced me. VOTE: charlie

… when, as far as I can see, he hadn't previously expressed any intention of hammering, or indeed any reaction to, or comment on charlie at any point that day.

I'm undecided on Zorblag and Tazaro.

So, now that Zorblag has claimed, I think he should be lynched. I have compared his play in other games (since he is nice enough to keep his wiki updated), and his play this game is pretty standard for his scum play. He comes off educated about how things should be handled, stating it a pro-town way, but remaining entirely off the grid. It should be a tip off that after every single day prior he has been absent or quiet, and now today he is trying to lead having more posts than probably every day prior combined.

I'm in two minds about Zorblag. I believe I'm allowed to refer you to our QT when we were scum together in 935 as the links included in the post-game anyway.
http://www.quicktopic.com/44/H/bxD8muxrJLv
In his last post, you'll notice he speaks about the way in which he uses the lack of game pace to his advantage. I believe that Zorblag is the kind of player who can use the situation of the game to suit himself. Why I say this relates to the points you've already drawn attention to about his activity levels and the way in which today he seems to have come out as someone who wants to lead the town. I also agree with your point about his posts containing what is legitimate mafia information, which doesn't necessarily have the greatest of bearings on the game. However, on the other hand, I wouldn't say there's one moment or post I could point to as being down-right scummy from Zorblag.

As for Tazaro, I hold against him the WIFOM speculation that was pointed out earlier in the game. He stood up in defence of Stef as being 'conservative, neutral and quiet' at one point during the day we lynched charlie. Also on rereading, this caught my eye:
Drawing on Furclow:

Alright. I'm caught up.

the 3 reminder was this post: post #333

1) Hey, the only way everybody is going to agree to policy lynch Lowell is if there's no possibility that's there's something better to do with our votes. It's a moot point really and we have to act as a collective, but I'm not going to suggest that it's good play to vote for Lowell if no one else cares about policy lynching him.
2) I said that Charlie's reaction to pressure made me not know if I can trust him. I have a problem with cross examination if you're doing it just because I said I was suspicious of you in my opinion post of people. You only asked me about suspicions that were about YOU; you asked me about Anon's gist. I don't mean to have a debate here or anything but if you're town play less selfishly because your not doing yourself any favors.

This post, to me, screams scumtalk due to lack of daytalk. When I see the word "collective" the way it is used, I think of scum or cult! Tazaro has been buddying up to BenMage all game, and BenMage has been distancing himself from Tazaro all game as highlighted by ToonFighter in #558 when he is quoting CCARaven4's opinion of another quote I want to address:

Yay, his "when I'm obvtown (this game)" strikes me as presumptious.

This post is scummy to me, and he meant to type yeah, which is a slip in and of itself. Furthermore, he is jumping at the opportunity for a policy lynch that has been dead for pages. The fact that someone fresh is trying to go along with it entices him to lend weight to the thought of it which indicates to me he is likely scum.

I'm going to feel like Mother Teresa for saying this, but Mothrax and Toon fighter, unvote from each other. Time for peace and peace brings love

how do you know they're both town? deductive reasoning? scum.

Wraith's weird vote on me for being "neutral" should be a TownRead-buster to boot.

Actually, Wraith putting you as neutral despite how you'd been posting + the scumminess of your slot earlier in the game felt like a tell to me on him, and not benmage, being your scumbuddy. I'm not certain, but I feel like we get a lot of information on your interaction with both of these players. If Wraith is Green, and BenMage is red, you will likely be red. If Wraith is red, I'm probably not going to endorse a BenMage lynch.
I just realized you WEREN'T referring to #464, either, when I was. whoo. hmm. Wraith yet again puts you at neutral, and in middling position. You know, I wouldn't be surprised if all 3 of you were scum together.

@Oso

I don't think 1 is a viable excuse. I personally dislike him because he always play as X,Y,Z (scummy). X, Y, Z, are scummy in themselves not because I dislike him. And as far as the perfect cover I think that is pretty far from the truth. Whenever I have pushed policy's (moreover this early) I have been town(can't recall even pushing a policy as scum). In addition I've never seen scum push a policy so early in a game. Because it draws attention and often negative attention their way. Something scum want to avoid (/end rant I've beat this point in with plenty of others this game).

2. As far as two goes I've also beat this point that many things will be able to be drawn from a policy lynch. Eagerness to join said policy lynch/resistance to vote/ how people vote etc etc...sure if everyone pop'd in and simply put "vote xxx" we'd have little to draw on, but that

never

happens. Not to mention NK's and any/all posts/information. To suggest we'd enter D2 clueless is a misnomer.

Moar Stef votes.

Pushing policy lynches on bad townies is scummy on day 1 in my opinion. I disagree with you, and find your playstyle arrogant and presumptuous while sort of Naziish. The fact that you push policies as town means that you would do it as scum, or your playstyle would be broken anyways. You would need to do it as scum, and then say, like you are this game, you do it as town, don't lynch me. It's a broken fucking record. Isn't that fucking WIFOM? You say scum want to avoid it, and you imply you are avoiding it, but it is left open for you to be scum and caught up in something you don't want to be called out on because you are being a little hitler. I agree that we get quite a lot of information from Wraith being lynched, but the fact of the matter is he is acting townie as fuck, whereas you are acting like a blue or red power role to me, and are therefore a better lynch/forceclaim.

@Tazaro/Oso/anyone.

Not sure how you can read post 491 and not be voting Stef.

I asked him simple questions that he refuses to answers because he thinks their irrelevant. Just cause he doesn't see my agenda doesn't excuse him from answering real basic questions. The obstinacy is so scummy.

This strengthens my association of BenMage and Tazaro. He is asking Tazaro to put pressure and consolidate their vote as a mafia collective because they are incapable of doing so in their quicktime right now.

Benmage wrote:Tazaro is a lynch I'm willing to get behind. But right now I think I'd prefer Stef or Anon, mayyyybe Raven.

@BenMage: Is there any game on this site as scum where you have been on the wagon of your teammates?

Lowell, if you are in fact town, convince us that you are town. Why should we believe you?

With Wraith making posts like this, I don't understand the wagon on him. His defense of himself was very good and very townie in my eyes. There is no way I'm voting him, but I really don't care if he dies. Better than us mislynching or exposing a doctor or detective.

@CCARaven4

what's your read/view on Lowell?

this could be rephrased as "ccaraven4, would you lynch a village idiot if i pushed hard enough?" why would you do that unless you were scum? I don't believe the explanations you've been giving, and I'm going to

vote: benmage

with

fos

on tazaro if benmage is red

Particularly significant given that Furclow died that night. I can't argue with Tazaro's activity levels, although he doesn't develop on what he contributes, making it difficult to gauge exactly what his opinion of most people are at any given time.

Basically, what I'm saying is that I would be happiest with a mothrax lynch. I'm also fairly confident on Stef. I disagree with toogeloo on Zorblag being today's lynch. I'm not ruling out a Zorblag lynch at some point, but given my confused read on both him and Tazaro and the non existent margin for error, a lynch of either of them doesn't sit nearly so well with me at the moment.

Also, in response to comments about my activity levels, I apologise for them, but these are my activity levels whatever my alignment. I try and come on once a day and catch up, although more often than not, not at weekends.

[Toogeloo]

@Toogeloo, at this point in the game I need to address this a bit more directly and defensively than I would otherwise because, as you say, we almost certainly can't afford to make a mistake here. Out of curiosity, do you think that my game here has been significantly different from my town games? I have been less present in this game that I should have but that's not at all unique to my scum games. Actually, I was replaced or mod-killed in all my other non-hydra games that are going on recently because this game included a rough stretch for me in terms of finding the time and energy to play; I've got no excuse beyond RL but I will claim that it's not alignment related. I was fully expecting to have been replaced in this game as well (clearly I should have been given the time I was away) but when I got back on my game feet it turned out I hadn't so I'm trying to make the best of the situation that we're in here. I'm not going to apologize for putting in an effort now when I wasn't able to earlier though it will be frustrating if that ends up leading to my lynch and a loss.

I'm doing my best at this point to make sure that we make the plays that maximize our chances of winning in terms of narrowing down the choices we need to look at. To the extent that I've been about that's been one of the things that I've been trying to do all game. I assume that when you say I've been off the grid it's not because I've not had opinions about the game (I claim that I have even though I wasn't pushing them particularly hard which I don't usually do in any case; I'm more interested in seeing the decisions that others make than I am in having people follow my lead.)

As far as your scum reads beyond me go, have you taken a look at Mr.Sandman's play as scum? It feels to me like he's making more of an effort to find scum this game than he did in Newbie Game 935 even if he's not posting more (though that was a concern of mine at the start of the game.) I'm not going to argue with your read on Stef but I wonder if you've got any reason at this point to think that either mothrax or Tazaro should be town beyond some sort of process of elimination.

I appreciate that you're taking the time to actually play this game especially as you almost have to be town at this point; you're certainly right that the entire town needs to be doing that now. You're wrong about your suspicions of me but as long as we can talk and try to sort this out it doesn't need to be the end of the world (well, or a game loss in this case.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

There was a time that I meta'd you possibly being replaced as making you town. On Night 3, after Lowell's lynch, it seemed obvious we were about to head into Do or Die, and Porochaz said he was going to replace you. To me, that screams that he needs to replace an idle town so that they can make a unified decision in Do or Die, but just from what I feel today, that has gone out the window.

As far as Sandman goes, for the longest time I thought he was town and would never had considered him scum. Most of his initial reads were the same as mine, yet I have been wrong with almost everything I have thought since the game began. As time went on, I started to rethink the game. As of the last few days however, Sandman has been consentful of almost all the lynches while offering no opinion of his own other than what was already popular.


The fact that you attempted to narrow him out of the equation and throw focus solely on moth, Tazaro, and Stef as our options makes me the most wary however (I know you buttered up the response later that you would plan on investigating even the people you like, but scum say anything, so pardon the skepticism).