That's productive.Post 549, Equinox wrote:Everyone in this game knows Coach Travis is town. Don't bother with that, scum.
Anyway, in response to Equinox's case, I'm noting that Equinox has merely used a combination of scare tactics ("IC still alive in LyLo? must be scum!" and "Incognito is known to be skillful scum. Be careful!") along with pointing out things that aren't even scummy or were dramatically different in reality when compared to how she "interpreted" them to try and support her "case". I'll try to briefly respond to each point to show why each one is so flawed and scummy of her.
This is just flat-out wrong. There's absolutely nothing wrong with town-hunting; I've certainly used it to great success in the past to find scum, and I'm going to continue using it in as many situations as I can because in reality, it's an extremely good way to find scum. The fact of the matter is most scums simply won'tPost 540, Equinox wrote:Town do not need to find other town; their sole objective is to find scum. Using process of elimination to scum hunt is just handing the mafia victory on a platter. Besides, and you would know this, being on the same wavelength does not indicate alignment by any stretch of the imagination; it just helps you find out, assuming you are scum, who is easier to manipulate.
do
the things that one would consider to be scum-tells because they know that that kind of thing will get them locked into a noose extremely quickly. Town-tells, on the other hand, are things that are oftentimes extremely difficult for scum to emulate because they require more energy to do, and they oftentimes result in clearing other people as town. One of scum's main objectives is to keep as many mislynches alive as possible. Clearing townies makes a scum's job that much more difficult, which is why town-hunting is so cool.I'm pretty sure I was the first one to question Alta about his early inconsistency in this post. How could you possibly call that insignificant? And Alta wasn't around very long for me to say much more than that; you're basically sprouting a "burden of proficiency" logical fallacy in that you're saying just because I'm an IC, I should have somehow known Alta was scum straight from the get-go. It simply doesn't work that way. In my experience, I've found that it's oftentimes difficult to differentiate between behavior that's just "newb-ish" and behavior that's legitimately scummy. I can't see how you're seriously arguing that I should have known better about him after his 5 or 6 posts of content. I'm an IC not God.Post 540, Equinox wrote:[*] Incognito managed to avoid mentioning anything significant about Alta, despite the questions around Alta's play. Pro-town IC should have noticed something at the very least.
They were both questions that I asked SD to try and figure him out. The fact of the matter is Shadow DancerPost 540, Equinox wrote:[*] Incognito did some distancing from Shadow Dancer with some questioning and more questioning. The first questioning aims to get Shadow Dancer to take a stance; the second is more to get a grip on Shadow Dancer's stance than to determine alignment.
was
being wishy-washy with respect to Earlder, and I was trying to figure out why he seemed that way. And he was also doing this weird attack of me that had absolutely no basis behind it, so I was trying to figure out if he was legitimately concerned about my alignment or just riding the "IC paranoia" train in an effort to gain a mislynch since everyone else in this game seemed to have no trouble hopping on at various points.This is just wrong. In that post, I said Shadow Dancer was giving me a better vibe than Alta was; I didn't say he seemed suspicious there. And I talked about Alta prior to this post here and especially here where I talked about how he still read neutral to me. You really missed that?Post 540, Equinox wrote:[*] In that same post, Incognito presents some suspicion against Shadow Dancer's slot, despite lack of mention of Alta elsewhere on Day 1. This is the first time he talks about Alta's play in any sort of detail.
What I've mentioned above makes this point completely invalid.Post 540, Equinox wrote:[*] Later, Incognito does not see a case against Shadow Dancer. No other mention of his stance regarding Shadow Dancer was made between the post where he had "suspicions" and this one. Something changed and went unmentioned, or it's just inconsistent play.
Was it smart of me to mention that I hadn't read his post? Probably not since it could have potentially tipped the scum off to me not being a PR here. But there's nothing scummy about mentioning that there. It was the truth - I hadn't read his post, and I was somewhat surprised to see him as the NK choice. I figured there was probably deeper meaning to it within his entrance posts, and I intended to find out what that might be.Post 540, Equinox wrote:[*] Lynch all liars. Uh, I mean, there is no pro-town motivation to mentioning how he didn't read DTMaster's posts. If town didn't read it, they'd just read it later and talk about it as if nothing strange happened... because nothing strange happened, merely honest neglect. Scum not only feel their own actions are scummier than they are, but they also feel the need to explain, almost excessively, the reasons behind their actions. This is one of them.
I thought his meta-gaming looked genuine here, and I've found that to be a fairly reliable town-tell in the past since scum are usually too lazy to do such things and don't really even need to since they already know who's who in the game. They usually just focus on in-thread stuff as a result. Obviously I was wrong about SD though.Post 540, Equinox wrote:[*] Incognito leans town on Shadow Dancer because of only one action -- metagaming. That may be a valid reason early in the game to read someone because there's no other information, but this is a poor excuse of a town read in Day 2. Besides, scum can do metagaming, too. It's just a matter of how much time one has and how dedicated one is to the game.
I'll keep the disclaimer thing in mind for next time then, I guess. You're acting like everything else I provided up until that point wasn't informational on its own though. I didn't put it in a fancy lay-out or anything like that, but I think mostly anyone looking back on my posts could have gotten a sense of where my thoughts may have lied with respect to certain people's alignments. So in actuality, I did provide town with plenty of information.Post 540, Equinox wrote:[*] In his response to Equinox's accusation about the lack of PBPAs, Incognito says he didn't want people to bank on them too much when he himself isn't confident. Lack of confidence in reads aside, this isn't very pro-town. Town needs information; any information you can provide, no matter how little, can help. Confidence issues can be addressed with a disclaimer. You just outright refused to provide it.
Because you share the same role? Because he spent more time in this game actually interacting with his scum buddy than you did? And anyway, IPost 540, Equinox wrote:[*] Why base your suspicion against Equinox mostly on her predecessor's play? Oh, that's right... because Equinox can't defend LordChronos's actions without using divination.
did
talk about how I found your sudden shift from a Coach Travis/Incognito scum pairing to a full-fledged Shadow Dancer attack when the tides were shifting against him pretty eyebrow-raising. So yeah.I'm assuming you mean brianj here? If so, brianj was accusing me of things that were simply untrue, and I was illustrating why what he said was untrue, and I wanted him to show why he thought otherwise. Just because I know I'm innocent doesn't mean I don't have to worry about people's attacks on me. Obviously I'm still trying to figure out what the possible motivations of those attacks might be, right?Post 543, Equinox wrote:[*] Incognito's response to Zachrulez is defensive. He brings up his "town credentials" as a shield. Town knows they do not need to do this because their actions are innocent.
After my read, I thought Shadow Dancer seemed town. I'm not going to deny that. His L-1 vote and reason for putting Coach Travis at L-1 seemed opportunistic as hell, and I began to think that he just might be scum taking advantage of the situation. How is that wishy-washy? That's me re-evaluating my read in light of new information which is something town SHOULD do.Post 543, Equinox wrote:[*] The last time I saw Incognito talk about Shadow Dancer, Shadow Dancer was a "leaning town" read. No apparent changes in opinion between that post and his intent to hammer. Even when Incognito was talking about his trichotomy (suspects after DTMaster's death), he claimed Shadow Dancer to be town. Wishy-washy, much?
He received heat from the vote from me and then eventually Coach Travis. I like how you've tried to re-order the actual situation to make it seem like my change in opinion only came about after a momentum shift was happening though.Post 540, Equinox wrote:[*] In the posts after this, Incognito begins throwing Shadow Dancer under the bus, followed by the hammer. He claims his flip in reading Shadow Dancer was first from Shadow Dancer's willingness to do metagaming and then Shadow Dancer's L-1 of Coach Travis. IIRC, Shadow Dancer received heat for his vote; that was a signal for Shadow Dancer's scum buddy to start bussing.
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@Coach Travis:
I apologize for the wordiness. I really think you should look into each point that Equinox brought up and my responses to each of them for yourself to see just how far from reality Equinox has twisted each situation. If you have any questions, lemme know. I'm off to bed, but I'll try to bring up more points against Equinox/LordChronos tomorrow.
