Newbie 980 ~ Game Over

[CSL]

From now on, if the vote/unvote is not in RED OR BLUE BOLD, it will not count. That's twice I missed the unvote because I was unable to see it. I DO look on the left side for voting and unvoting, you know.

[a2rudeboy]

Gah, joining in a second game and having to catch up to 17 pages worth of material (with a lot of walls) and the added pressure of a deadline in two days has really frazzled my mind here.

Not really much to go on right at this moment.

@flay- i know you said storms were holding off the rest of your haylen comment, is there still more to go on this? i feel like a couple of people are waiting on this right now.

@zaj- i'm also waiting to hear from you right now. you say you feel nexus v haylen is town-town, in my mind they have been two of the most suspect players throughout this game. it seems like a lot of people happen to think this as well. we're starting to get a little down on time, so if you have information why the two we have spent most of the time hunting after are town, now would be a good time to let us in on that.

[a2rudeboy]

Oh, and another thing.

Although my rule is that I don't like to vote for anyone because of deadline (game falls too easily into scum's advantage near deadline, hard-lined as it is i would rather not lynch than mislynch at least this early in the game, I like to go by the maxim "if i wouldnt lynch them 4 days before deadline, i wouldn't lynch them 4 hours before"), I would possibly be interested in an earl lynchwagon at the deadline. Part of this is because, as others have stated, been acting a lot more scummy as of late. But also, I am not comfortable with him going inactive again and being force replaced. If that happened, or if anyone gets replaced for that matter, we'll have less than half the people we started with, and that just plays into all sorts of mayhem.

[Zajnet]

@zaj- i'm also waiting to hear from you right now. you say you feel nexus v haylen is town-town, in my mind they have been two of the most suspect players throughout this game. it seems like a lot of people happen to think this as well. we're starting to get a little down on time, so if you have information why the two we have spent most of the time hunting after are town, now would be a good time to let us in on that.

Honestly, its a gut feeling. It just

feels

like town v town to me.

[jmurph3]

Oh, and another thing.

Although my rule is that I don't like to vote for anyone because of deadline (game falls too easily into scum's advantage near deadline, hard-lined as it is i would rather not lynch than mislynch at least this early in the game, I like to go by the maxim "if i wouldnt lynch them 4 days before deadline, i wouldn't lynch them 4 hours before"), I would possibly be interested in an earl lynchwagon at the deadline. Part of this is because, as others have stated, been acting a lot more scummy as of late. But also, I am not comfortable with him going inactive again and being force replaced. If that happened, or if anyone gets replaced for that matter, we'll have less than half the people we started with, and that just plays into all sorts of mayhem.

Wow, this put up multiple red flags for me. Firstly, in no way is a no lynch better than a mislynch. Only scum would think that. It's always better to lynch than not because information is gathered from any lynch, even if it's the lynch of a townie, and not lynching just plays into the scum's hands.

However, that aside, you wouldn't policy lynch anyone, except for Earlder1? That just seems like a really bizarre thing for you to say, particularly with 8 days left in D1. There's absolutely no reason for you to come out at this stage in the game and say that. That, coupled with the way you seemed to be buddying with Kov, has made me suspicious of you.

FoS: a2rudeboy[/quote]

[jmurph3]

EBWOP: Fail with the tags.

FoS: a2rudeboy

[a2rudeboy]

Please point to the buddying with Kov?

[Beefster]

@jmurph: I wanted your reaction to my vote... Makes me wonder if you were trying to dodge the question...

[CSL]

The New Page Vote Count

Haylen (3) a2rudeboy, Mr. Flay, Nexus

jmurph3 (2) Beefster, Zajnet
Nexus (2) Earlder1, Haylen


Not Voting: Kov, jmurph3

---

Deadline and Lynch info

Currently set for Thursday, July 29th, at 7:00pm EST

There are NINE alive, so FIVE votes on a player will lynch.

Haylen is currently at L-2

V/LA's and Prods

Mr. Flay is on a perpetual V/LA status

Etc.

[jmurph3]

@jmurph: I wanted your reaction to my vote... Makes me wonder if you were trying to dodge the question...

No, I was just confused because I already reacted to your vote. The fact that you never answered my questions to you makes me curious though...

[Beefster]

Crap! I didn't notice that. XD... When I first skimmed past it, I thought you were just correcting me on your gender.

Regarding connections:
-I still feel confident that if Nexus is scum, jmurph3 is as well.
-I feel that Haylen's scumminess is mutually exclusive to Nexus's.

So you don't think that Haylen and Nexus could be a scumpair that's playing off of each other?

It just doesn't seem very likely. It's some pretty hardcore bussing if they

are

playing off each other. In games I've played as scum, my scum partner was never as against me as either one is to the other.
Nexus on Haylen looks like an OMGUS, while Haylen on Nexus looks like a pick on the weakest tactic. Both are pretty scummy, yes, but 2 scums don't bus that hard.
I would say that there is also a slight possibility that both are townies.

Come to think of it, I think jmurph3 is scum. I'm not liking jmurph's defense, and am very uncomfortable with how fast he jumped on Kov.
UNVOTE: Nexus
VOTE: jmurph3

I said it before, I'll say it again. I am a girl.

Also, what part of my defense aren't you liking? Why are you not liking it? And see above re: the vote on Kov. I do wonder, however, how you can call my jumping on Kov "fast" when it took place almost 9 hours and multiple posts afterward?

I'd like to revisit your first defense.

Second suspect: jmurph3
It seems like she's just agreeing with Nexus. Her play doesn't seem genuinely IC to me.
ISO3- WHOA! She goes from "OMG YOU NEED TO DIE" to "meh" in less than 3 hours. Scummy.

Firstly, I never said "OMG YOU NEED TO DIE", nor did I even imply it. I eased off of millar because I could tell that we were getting mired in that instead of trying to scumhunt whatsoever. I also unvoted at that point because we were moving out of RVS. I don't hold my RVS vote out of RVS.

This is how I saw it. In the first post, you were very much against millar's actions and strongly held your vote on him. Then in the next post of yours, three hours later, you suddenly change to indifferent on millar. I still find that odd.

ISO3-5- it looks like she's trying to change targets gradually as to not look like a scummy bandwagoning maniac.

How was I bandwagoning at all? I actually moved off of a bandwagon when I saw where it was going.

Exactly. It looks like you were trying to hide the possibility that you were trying to start a new wagon- and your scumbuddy happened to be millar or Nexus.

ISO9 reeks of inconsistency. Earlier, she refused to answer Earlder's experience question, stating that it will clog up the thread. She seems to be against the questions, but proceeds to answer them anyway for no apparent reason. WTF is up with this suddden paradigm shift?

Here's the thing: I didn't like Earlder's question because it isn't relevant. Experience is a null tell, as roles are assigned randomly. Haylen's questions, while I didn't like them, at least were relevant to the game, hence why I answered them. Not a sudden paradigm shift at all.

I personally just don't like rolefishy questions like "are you nervous." Experience questions never bothered me, and despite being irrelevant, will still help with discussion. The fact that you're getting so down and dirty about relevance is kinda bothering me.

She also claims she isn't lurking by saying she posts "fairly regularly." (which is a half truth: regularly =/= frequently)
The answer to #3 is hypocritical, more or less.

It's only hypocritical if I'm a lurker, which I'm not. And if posting frequently is the only way to not be considered a lurker, than I guess I'm screwed. I work during the week, and don't have the luxury of being able to post multiple times during the day. It's not lurking, at least, not the way I view lurking. Lurking to me is purposely avoiding posting. I have not done that.

At a few points, you've not posted for a whole day. I'm not really holding the lurking itself against you, just pointing out how it makes you somewhat of a hypocrite.

The end of ISO10 looks like she's coaching Nexus.
------------
I feel that her scumminess is dependent on Nexus's alignment. Definitely some buddying going on here.

HoS: jmurph3

Not buddying, or coaching. Just trying to be helpful to a newb.

But it was sooo specific to Nexus.

If I had to pick a third suspect, I would go with Haylen, for one reason and one reason only: wanting a full scum list. Aside from that, her play has been pro-town.

Speaking of buddying, though, you seem to be basing a lot of what you're saying off of Haylen. Bit hypocritical there. And I love the way you throw in your suspicion of her at the bottom of your post so that you can pretend like you're not.

FoS: Beefster

Obviously buddying with Haylen, parroting everything she says, and hypocritical.[/area] Fair Enough.

Regarding Nexus:

As far as the Nexus thing goes, I really don't understand. Nexus, to me, is newb neutral. All of the things that I see Nexus doing are typical newbie mistakes and are not indicative of alignment. Granted, Nexus could still be scum, but the mistakes he's making aren't indicating that to me at the moment. In fact, Nexus' play reminds me a lot of my first game, where I was a newb VT, and came under heat on D1 and reacted in the same way.

Personally, I hope no one hammers at this point as I think that we have a lot more discussion that could and should come out on D1 before we lynch anyone. I really don't like kov's vote on Nexus - coming in, quick voting without reason, and putting someone at L1 because of it? Bad play, IMO.

FoS: kov

Also, there seems to be some confusion about the list Haylen asked for. Personally, I'm not going to give it for the same reasons already mentioned. Haylen claims:

Um. Can we please note that i

DID NOT

ask you all for a list of most pro-town and most scummy players. I asked for your opinions on each player, that's a completely different thing.

But what she really asked was this (bold added by me):

From you, I just want a list of everybodies names and what you think about them,

whether you think they are town or scum.

That, to me, seems to be asking for a list of town and scum. Very anti-town, IMO.

FoS: Haylen

.

Very impressed with the analysis by Mr. Flay. Seems to be very thorough in reading through everything. I look forward to reading more from him.

I'm concerned with the turn this day has taken. Actually, I'm glad that discussion has come out, as that only helps town. My worry that this game would never get off the ground has not come true, thankfully Currently, however, I'm worried that we're going to get a quicklynch on Nexus, who, at this point, I think will probably flip town. Oh - and Nexus, you may want to claim. Personally, from the way you've been talking about it in your posts, I think you've already claimed townie at one point or other, though whether you were actually meaning to do that, or were just using town/townie interchangeably, I don't know.

For now, I'm going to say

vote: Kov

. Your vote on Nexus seems very opportunistic, and I don't like the way you didn't give a real explanation for it. It's a perfect move for scum to make at this point.

It appears to be such a fast jump because you just spent the rest of the post talking about Nexus and myself. You clearly had more evidence against us two, yet you suddenly voted on Kov with less evidence. It looks kinda scummy.

[Beefster]

MOD: could you please fix the above post? there's an extra [/quote] just before "That, to me, seems to be asking for a list of town and scum. Very anti-town, IMO. FoS: Haylen."

I want it to be very clear what I said versus what jmurph said. Plus I might have screwed up something with the thread on this page.

Fixed

[Earlder1]

Well, in response to Kov, I just haven't been on since Sunday (until yesterday) and so I was shocked I had a prod when it still felt to me that I had posted recently. I hadn't read the thread in between and been "actively lurking" or anything. I just hadn't checked on Monday or earlier on Tuesday than the prod I received. Btw, I am in the pacific timezome so my references in timing are a bit later then most of everyone else's. What I mean by that is, I posted Sunday night, and it didn't feel like it had really been that long when I got prodded on Tuesday night.

Did I clear things up?

I also still plan on rereading the last few pages to get a better grasp on things. I will post my thoughts soon enough.

[Mr. Flay]

You caught me! because a newbie isn't allowed to ask questions in there first game. I was debating to leave it out but best to learn what to do as Mafia as eventually I will be scum. AND is it really scummy as why on earth would they draw any attention to the nightkill as whatever they say can be used against them.

Well, you can ask questions, and you'll note I didn't vote you. But asking about the nightkill is a good way for scum to see what the other side might do, i.e. who a Doctor might protect or Cop might investigate, in this case. Also, if one scum feels like they're going to get lynched, they can try to push their buddy toward a particular player, since they won't get a chance to nighttalk again.

@flay- i know you said storms were holding off the rest of your haylen comment, is there still more to go on this?

Oh, sorry. I kinda boiled it down because some other people had hit on things, but here's what bothers me from Haylen's big post:

Haylen: Why did you post that after jmurph3 had essentially done the same thing the previous page?

I always do it in games that I'm an IC in. I've done it since September last year. In fact, it's exactly the same post as I posted in the first game I IC'd, the only difference is the links, the names and the pro-nouns. *shrugs* The editting thing can easily be explained by the fact that I write exactly what I am thinking at the time when I'm writing a post in games rather than make up some ridiculous bullcrap.

That doesn't explain WHY you did it. It's not content, yet you spent a significant amount of time editing it so the names would be right for this game. Had you read the game thread at that point, or not?

About me voting for the guy being prodded, this is how my gut works:
I look at the playerlist and find the name that jumps out at me. At that point it was the person whom I voted for. I disregarded anything that wasn't me gut when making that vote.

So it was literally a random vote? On page 4. But then on page 6, post 116, you say you're most likely to lynch jmurph at that point, while you're still voting ChibiSanNub/Zajnet (who has been replaced). You hadn't mentioned jmurph ONCE at that point... (or most other players, to be honest), so why was he most lynchable? Was that name also picked at random?

Also of note is the self-meta-excuse of posting fluff given in this post.

Would it not have been hypocritical to ask everybody to answer my questions, yet not answer them myself?

That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about this"

I wouldn't call lurking part of my playstyle, it's something that happens if things are getting too much for me. Posting fluff however? Me and another player had a lovely conversation about that once.

Her: "Posting content is painful for you, isn't it. Haylen."
Me: "I would rather chew glass."

You just excused your own lack of content pre-emptively. Also, for somebody who plays by gut (again, self-analysis), you post an awful lot of walls of words.

I've not noticed this tendency to post things 'at random' or not say what you mean in GD and MD. Have we ever played together, Haylen? Can you post an example or two from a completed game as Town? It can wait, doesn't have to be right away... just trying to get a sense if that's actually alignment-independent.

[Mr. Flay]

Earlder, are you unavailable any specific days/times? You don't have to post your work schedule, of course, just figure out why Sunday-Tuesday didn't seem that long to you.

[jmurph3]

It just doesn't seem very likely. It's some pretty hardcore bussing if they

are

playing off each other. In games I've played as scum, my scum partner was never as against me as either one is to the other.
Nexus on Haylen looks like an OMGUS, while Haylen on Nexus looks like a pick on the weakest tactic. Both are pretty scummy, yes, but 2 scums don't bus that hard.
I would say that there is also a slight possibility that both are townies.

I don't disagree, I was just interested to see your reasoning.

This is how I saw it. In the first post, you were very much against millar's actions and strongly held your vote on him. Then in the next post of yours, three hours later, you suddenly change to indifferent on millar. I still find that odd.

I'm sorry if you do. To me, my vote on millar, starting in RVS, was maintained as a pressure vote to keep him in line. When it appeared he wasn't going to, and when I saw RVS as ending, I unvoted. I figured he was either going to get mod-killed or force-replaced. Also, I didn't really think he was scum, just a tool, and I wanted to focus on finding actual scum instead of wasting 3 more pages on millar being an idiot.

Exactly. It looks like you were trying to hide the possibility that you were trying to start a new wagon- and your scumbuddy happened to be millar or Nexus.

How was I starting a new wagon at all? Now, if I had unvoted and revoted immediately after that, that's understandable. But looking at what I did, you're making things up. Literally. What you claim happened didn't. Plain and simple.

I personally just don't like rolefishy questions like "are you nervous." Experience questions never bothered me, and despite being irrelevant, will still help with discussion. The fact that you're getting so down and dirty about relevance is kinda bothering me.

So because a question bothers me and not you, this makes me scum? That doesn't make sense. I've stated before that I don't like fluff. Fluff=irrelevant things. So for a line of questioning that is repetitively irrelevant, it irritates me. And therefore I'm not going to answer it. And how am I getting down and dirty about relevance?

At a few points, you've not posted for a whole day. I'm not really holding the lurking itself against you, just pointing out how it makes you somewhat of a hypocrite.

According to Mr. Flay's graphs, there's been some points where

you

haven't posted for a whole day. Pot, meet kettle.

But it was sooo specific to Nexus.

Yes, because Nexus was the newb who needed help at that point. Note how I did the same thing when Kov had questions.

It appears to be such a fast jump because you just spent the rest of the post talking about Nexus and myself. You clearly had more evidence against us two, yet you suddenly voted on Kov with less evidence. It looks kinda scummy.

Firstly, if you're going to quote that much again in that big of a block, can you just link to the post? And I've already explained that my vote on Kov was a vote to keep him talking. I didn't need to do that with Nexus or with you.

[jmurph3]

EBWOP: Boo, messed up quote tags :'(

My comments are the one's following the quotes of what Beefster said.

Fixed upon request. :)

[Haylen]

That's not a role, that's a "playstyle"... you said you knew his role. millar's always a VI, but earlier I pointed out that he's never finished a game as scum. Can you explain? I'd also like to see where you get the idea that VIs tend to be Town, especially on Day One??

Didn't I mention that I

knew

has extremely strong suspicions about his role because of meta? His play was consistant with his other games as town.

As for VI's being town...ever played with Battle Mage? His scumplay is infinately more careful than his town play. Sniper in Invasion of Liten was a townie. Looker. MonkeyMan in my second game on site was cop and I hammered him...Day One. Hohum in a recent newbie game.

In my experience

, VI's tend to be town.

How is meta related to my Jmurph graph?

I picked Jmurph out cause it seemed like he was lurking and I wanted a reaction.

Explain your graphs, I don't understand them. Well...I don't get what they show - that's why I use line graphs rather than scatter graphs.

That doesn't explain WHY you did it. It's not content, yet you spent a significant amount of time editing it so the names would be right for this game. Had you read the game thread at that point, or not?

I'd Iso'd Millar and that was it. At that point, I only knew what had been posted by him and any quotes that he had used. I'd tried Mediating with him and the mod to find a mutual agreement so that the game could run as smoothly as possible with any disruptions ie clear their heads and make them see what was important here. At that point in time, I did not anticipate replacing into the game and I gained no knowledge of anyone's opinion on the game or alignments by doing so. I would ask the mod the confirm this, but I consider it to be poor form. I spent a lot of time editting it to be right for this game because I take ICing very seriously.

So it was literally a random vote? On page 4. But then on page 6, post 116, you say you're most likely to lynch jmurph at that point, while you're still voting ChibiSanNub/Zajnet (who has been replaced).

Yep. I still hadn't received a reaction at that point and I wanted one, doesn't mean I couldn't voice my suspicions. Tbh, Jmurph's name was 50% random, 25% to get a reaction, 25% because I thought he was lurking.

You just excused your own lack of content pre-emptively.

Hey! Jmurph! Any chance that you feel like confirming I did that in Newbie 947 aswell? As town?

Also, for somebody who plays by gut (again, self-analysis), you post an awful lot of walls of words.

So would you if EVERYONE WAS ASKING YOU QUESTIONS.

I've not noticed this tendency to post things 'at random'

You do realise I don't actually mean 95% of what I say in GD, right? And that I literally post what I'm thinking at the time?
We have never played together. But I like this, I haven't completed a non-Rome game since before April and the last time I got attacked this hard was by Charter in Newbie 848.

Saying things at random?
* This whole post. Good luck reading it. Uh...before anyone says anything, yes, there was a lot of pretty bad logic in that post, I was a newbie myself when I wrote it. It may seem odd and eccentric, but I swear to the gods of mafia that I believed everything I wrote in that post (even the power to the number 64 bit.). Yeah, this post was made over a year ago, but nothings changed really. Fun Fact: I confused everyone that game because I could tell them exactly was a mafia tailor and a mafia traitor was and the best way to play them - but I didn't have a clue what side a Vig was on.

* My interaction with Mae, here. I was Vig in that game. I was a pretty bad Vig too. I killed off nearly all the town power roles single handedly.

As I continue with this list. I begin to lost complete respect for myself as a mafia player.

Ok, all respect gone.

The only alignment independant thing I have that I know about (because someone pointed it out to me) is my tendancy to get very emotional as town yet be quite cold and detached as scum. It's something I've never been able to control, so I gave up on it long ago. :/

One thing, what I have been doing is nowhere near the analysis's i've seen on this site. It's nowhere near as good or as perfect.

-------------------------------------------------------------

So, I think Flay's scum, wanna hear why? Be glad I'm not giving you a 30 point essay.

Mr Flay

* From what it looks like to me, he read the first few pages of the game and decided that Miller/Haylen would make the perfect town scapegoat for his diabolical scummy plans. And now look, the towns decided to follow him and a Haylen-Wagon has exploded. I'm not really finding that much of a co-incidence.
* I also think it's pretty obvious that he knew what I meant by "I knew Millar's role", just because I didn't add 'cause of his playstyle' to the end of it, it doesn't take a genius to work out what I meant. Which is pretty scummy cause it shows he's reaching to find reasons to be suspicious of me.
* Again misrepping me with the whole "I want your opinions on everyone" things. I've said it enough times, I did NOT ask everyone who they thought was the most protown. To me, this seems like an easy way out really. A really easy to cast suspicion on somebody by twisting there words, especially when people wont READ BACK AND LOOK WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID AND PUT INTO SOME DAMN CONTEXT.
* Uses some sort of Appeal to Authority to put some driving force behind his "suspicions" of my graph. Give it a nice piece of latin and people will believe anything you say.
*Reaches a huge amount by saying that the IC intro post that I've posted in EVERY GAME I'VE IC'D is scummy. I see it as more helpful than anything.

UNVOTE
VOTE MR FLAY

I'm going to take a step back cause I'm beginning to take things personal and I don't like it when that happens.

[jmurph3]

Hey! Jmurph! Any chance that you feel like confirming I did that in Newbie 947 aswell? As town?

Firstly, I don't hold with meta. In all of my previous games, I have been town. In all of my previous games, I have acted differently each time.

Also, I will only "confirm" what you did if a) you stop calling me a "he" - we had issues with this in the very game you want me to reference, so it's not like you don't know about it, and b) you also confirm that your accusations of me "lurking" were the same exact thing that I did in the same game you want me to reference - where I was also town.

So basically, Haylen, if you want me to defend you, you in turn have to admit that based on meta, the same exact thing you want me to confirm for you, your vote on me - due to me "lurking" - is complete BS. Do that, and I'll agree that your meta holds up in this game.

[Haylen]

a) you stop calling me a "he" - we had issues with this in the very game you want me to reference, so it's not like you don't know about it

I'M SORRY. I KEEP FORGETTING! I think it's the black avatar, and the absense of little pink symbols.

So basically, Haylen, if you want me to defend you, you in turn have to admit that based on meta, the same exact thing you want me to confirm for you, your vote on me - due to me "lurking" - is complete BS. Do that, and I'll agree that your meta holds up in this game.

That's blackmail and I hope everyone in the game notices that. You're basically admitting that you're attacking me because I attacked you, which is OMGUS (oh my gosh you suck).
You did lurk in the other game but it feels different to me here

[jmurph3]

How is it blackmail? Anyone can go to the game and look for themselves to see if you acted the same. I'm not blackmailing you, I'm pointing out that if you want me to defend you,

based on your own reasoning

your vote on me doesn't hold up. Also, I was never attacking you. I wasn't the one who accused you of acting differently. That was Mr. Flay. So there's really no OMGUS involved there, as, like I mentioned, I was attacking you, only your reasoning.

[jmurph3]

EBWOP: I

wasn't

attacking Haylen, only her reasoning.

[Mr. Flay]

Color me unsurprised at the OMGUS. Here's a countertheory: you like playing Newbies because you DON'T usually get questioned this hard. The idea that you are posting walls because "everyone is asking you questions" is laughable when you're the one who started with the questions, and you have most of the post-content for this game.

That said, that post from Mini 800. Good lord... I'll need to do some reading up on you. Maybe you're right and I'm just biased against your general style (or, equally likely, we speak different languages in Mafia). I'll try to post more concisely and 'politely' to you tomorrow because the game isn't about pissing people off, but I need to read your meta more first. I still don't like the semi-random attack on jmurph3, but your explanation makes some sense.

As for the graphs, they're scatter plots of post times. X is the day they were posted, and Y is the time of day (so you can see that I don't post early in the morning, U.S. time, because the bottom of my graph is largely bare). It's a little more nuanced than your line graph, and shows (to me) that jmurph's posting is not as 'lurky' as you made it seem by that 2-0-2-0-0-2 graph.

[Mr. Flay]

I say 'tomorrow' because I *really* have to get some work done today, and tonight I'm focusing on other things besides my games, and then tomorrow my other game goes to deadline. So I hope to have more content by Saturday morning...

[Kov]

Just so you knowing thinking Haylen @ scum

I wont vote till a few days before the deadline and I wont change my vote after that so any self-defense(Mainly Jmurph/Haylen just because you have most votes) now thanks . (And number of votes won't matter. I may be hammering or I might be putting someone on L-4)

Also Haylen don't quote someone else's opinion of your meta espically if it happens to fit perfectly into your current situation. As there are always exceptions and you quoting it makes me think this is one.