Mini 1005: Mafiaphobes! (Game over)

[Oso]

What happened to Oso?

I'm still here. I was mainly holding back to see if jay would make an appearance but think I'm going to have to give that up hoping for that at the moment.

To answer the question xvart asked earlier. No, SSBF hasn't made it near scum in my book so far. I don't like some of his ideas about using absolutes in scum tells and think it might be hard to convince him of anything if you hit try any use anything goes against that.

xvart has raised some interesting points in regards to quadz though, today is a light day working for me so I plan looking on looking at what he said in those couple of posts about quadz pretty closely. I have a slight town read on quadz at the moment so I'm interested. One question at xvart though, part of that is based on a meta call in regards to quadz right? If the game you mentioned is finished, could you link it? I don't recall seeing a game link or a game name.

[xvart]

@ q21 and xvart:

What's your opinion of vezo right now and the wagon on him?

I actually find vezok to be sort of a lightning rod (as he seems to be in every game I am) and I know one of these games he's actually going to be scum and it's going to bite me in the ass but I think in this case I am fairly confident that he is town based on my scum reads either voting for him or saying they will vote for him at deadline. He's a scapegoat for scum to push a town lynch because his play is so random, sometimes unhelpful, and often anti-town.

I can't keep repeating the same case over and over, that would accomplish nothing, and look scummy.

An important part about presenting cases is to make sure you present it in such a way that you don't look scummy, right? Only scummy people worry about looking scummy.

xvart has raised some interesting points in regards to quadz though, today is a light day working for me so I plan looking on looking at what he said in those couple of posts about quadz pretty closely. I have a slight town read on quadz at the moment so I'm interested. One question at xvart though, part of that is based on a meta call in regards to quadz right? If the game you mentioned is finished, could you link it? I don't recall seeing a game link or a game name.

Quadz is scum isolated to this game and independent of any sort of meta. I only mentioned the other game because of the link to SSBF. The game is Newbie 965. I linked to the relevant post that I referenced early with quadz response right below that.

xvart.

[quadz08]

An important part about presenting cases is to make sure you present it in such a way that you don't look scummy, right? Only scummy people worry about looking scummy.

As to your first sentence: I agree, and I have done that to the best of my ability.
As to your second sentence: I disagree. If a townie looks scummy because of the way he's made a case on someone, then that distracts the town from looking for the real scum. This is what is happening now, methinks.

[Humble Poirot]

Hi... I'm finally here...

If I don't get lynched today, I have a feeling I'll get NKed (possibly for this very post).

I don't have major problems from your post but this. It's not useful for you to say you feel you'll be night killed. Especially when it doesn't follow very much to being a lynch consideration for day 1, it all depends on who is scum and how they think. Anticipating this kind of things doesn't serve any purpose.

So, in that event I urge all townies to watch Oso (and vezo if he's still alive) VERY closely.

The same thing should happen with everyone. No one should be given a leeway.

---------------------------------

I thought it was important to highlight the following:

I see a lot of active lurking, not breaking down your thought process and just fake attempts at scum hunting. I don't sense any urgency, just a lot of statements with very little attempt at digging beneath the surface.

It's a very good point about Vezo and one that I find to be an important scumtell in many games.

There's a type of scum who just wants to go through the day and doesn't really care. The thing here, is that half the players don't look like they care too much.

Vezok is

Above is more sheeping of Oso by diddin. Why isn't anyone noticing this?

Dude. When I talk about people who follow Oso around without providing reasons of their own I'm referring to all of them. As for Diddin in particular, I feel weird about him, I struggle to find out if his excessive agreeing, mildness and vote hopping is part of his play style or indicative of scum. As I said

I need to analyze his motives and I'd like more precise explanations regarding his case against SSBF.

What are you doing to help us reach a lynch?

This is what I wonder about a lot of players. They just say a couple of things, vote someone, answer if questioned and leave it at that. It's like as if they didn't care what ultimately happened.

vezok, q21, diddin, SSBF, Oso(to a lesser degree)


------------------------

This was the only thing that really came across as scummy to me, as well as what xvart said. I'm much more confident in a SSBF lynch than a quadz lynch.

SSBF and quadz had 2 votes at the time of that post. vezok had 4. Now quadz has 3. What are you going to do about it? Will you try to convince someone else to vote SSBF? or at least try to go for the second option, quadz? or are you comfortable with a vezok lynch?
------------------------

We have some more time to discuss. YAY. This game is already getting boring. Big wall-o-texts that must be read.
I am waiting for either getting at L-2 to claim or kagelord getting lynched.

L-2? You have already been in L-2. Also, your attitude, if you're town, is extremely depressing. The rebel act doesn't help anyone. Instead of trying to convince people in a game where you are supposed to talk and give arguments you complain when people do so without addressing where and why it is bad.
-------------------------

Since we are in a lull here.

I appreciate you asking for a jay prod but we don't necessarily need to be in a lull. There are new players and new opinions. Kagelord doesn't seem like he is going to be lynched and you don't seem to care much considering you claimed to be sure he was scum.
-------------------------

We have some more time to discuss. YAY. This game is already getting boring. Big wall-o-texts that must be read.

I'm not sure if that was sarcasm or not, but I think you've just made a contradiction. Why say "yay" to having more time to discuss if you're bored of the game?

Now, SSBF. How serious do you think this post was. What was the point for calling a contradiction in the same sentence when you answered yourself? Wouldn't you agree this looks like active lurking from your part? As in, post void of content without openly showing so.

diddin

, you said Kagelord is closed 4th as a suspect. Why?

This day is too swingy.
Anything can happen and everyone may get lynched.

How is it swingy? You mean you're relying on the swingyness of the day to save yourself? Because you haven't provided one good reason against your lynch. Exactly the opposite.

SSBF: So you think it's likely that quadz and vezok are scumbuddies?

by the way, Vezok, you're welcome to ask for a replacement if you're not lynched and you don't care about reading.

xvart, interesting analysis regarding quadz + SSBF. I don't have a problem with theories unless they make you lynch someone other than your most scummy suspect.

I'd like to have more input from sotty regarding quadz (I'm aware you spoke a bit about him). What do you think about my case?. q21's opinion would be interesting too.

I'm sorry but those two statements don't match up to me.

Nice catch. Checking context of both statements.

xvart.

I like this.

Context is important.

Just a reminder for the town.

[...]
I'm sorry but those two statements don't match up to me.

Why do you feel the need to apologize?

Dude. What. Is. This? What's your point with that question?

No question's for me?
I am getting bored.

Yep, what will you say when I vote you next post for acting like a complete anti-town fool?
quote="vezokpiraka"]
Well he wants other people to do the work vut if he doesn't comment or anything then he is just active lurking.[/quote]You've mixed the concepts. If you don't comment you're just lurking. By posting fluff like this you're ACTIVE lurking.

Yes I do.

Hi empking.

@ q21 and xvart:

What's your opinion of vezo right now and the wagon on him?

If I have to I'll vote him before deadline. A vezo lynch is better than no lynch. I still want more KageLord votes, though.

Oh. So you remember him. You want more votes? What are you going to do about it? No one is showing signs of voting him and I've strongly attacked Oso's case (which you subscribed to without developing).

Okay. Tell me, outside of your vote what are you doing to get SSBF lynched?

Waiting for other scumtells to come out of him, and repeating that I think he is scum. There isn't much else to do, that I can see. I can't keep repeating the same case over and over, that would accomplish nothing, and look scummy.

Let me get this straight. You think he is scum but you're still waiting for him to give MORE scumtells so you can get him lynched?
Repeating? How's that working for you?
Let's see... quadz is scum, quadz is scum, quadz is scum, quadz is scum... Ok, I did it 4 times. You can't avoid a lynch now...

Repeating a case over and over? Why don't you try to summarize your case? Did you read xvart's critique? And yet chose to safely ignore it in hopes that it be forgotten?

I'd like jay to appear or, better yet, be replaced, soon. Quadz, do you have any new theories about him after his absence.

What happened to Oso?

I'm still here. I was mainly holding back to see if jay would make an appearance but think I'm going to have to give that up hoping for that at the moment.

Really? Holding back for jay? What would that change? You're telling me that you give any credit at all to the possibility that he could be A) A day actioning role B) had actioned on me C) gotten scum D) claimed it like he did?

It would've sounded better if you said you were just lurking.

btw,

Mod: This is not a complaint or anything. Just a precaution because of bad experiences. Do you have someone to back you up in case of an eventuality?

If you don't have one, asking for a backup mod could be a good idea. Thanks.

PREVIEW EDIT: xvart may be right about vezok being a scapegoat. I plead to everyone to take a good look at the cases against him and corroborate them.

[Humble Poirot]

I almost forgot.

The answer for Oso's post:

Ok, I'll bite on that one. How do you explain 'gut feeling'? By definition it is not something based in logic. It based on past experience, overall impressions and perhaps even a subconscious awareness that something is wrong or right but you just haven't ferreted out the logical basis for it yet.

I'm sure you won't be surprised to hear I put some thought into my posts. I knew you'd try to divert the argument this way.

Gut is subjective. Hence, not transferable to other people. So you can't expect to be able to convince anyone by using gut. Gut, however, can prove useful to decide who you think is scum and try to sustain it with logic.

After all, gut (let's call it intuition) is just the fact that we can't see what rational reason is making us think that way. So the reason MUST be somewhere, we just can't see it yet.

So, yes, you can attempt to explain gut.

What you did, instead was make 2 logical points and, when dismissed and confronted with inconsistencies regarding your suspicions, you fell back to gut as the crucial motive. Gut is indisputable. I can't tell you your gut is wrong because I don't know how you feel and why you feel it.

You're not searching for a reason to justify that gut. You're not trying and that makes it all invalid.

Oso keeps talking generalities and answering every question evasively. He looks like a politician and that displeases me a great deal.

and this

I do not disagree with the fact that logic is not everything.

But when you make a case on someone where you first focus on logic that doesn't hold together

and there's no attempt to explain the "gut" you apparently feel, it makes me wonder at how easy it is to get anyone lynched.

Fair enough. Prove it.

Sure thing, hope it comes across.

1 - Examples showing I am evasive and using generalizations and tie it into how that might indicate that am scum.

First of all. Why do you want indicatives of scummyness when I implied no such thing? I just attacked your case and the way you defended it (avoiding it). To be honest, I don't know what to make of your over-defensiveness. As I've said, there's a lot of things I don't like about you but I don't feel I've gotten a good read. If I was fairly confident you were scum you'd be the first to know.

Just because I think one player is scummy for doing something it doesn't necessarily follow that I suspect another player as scummy because they are doing the same thing. Logic is good. For me it is useless by itself without stepping back and trying to figure out the 'why' of the situation. That requires assigning motivations based on gut and overall impressions on where I think the player(s) is going with their posts.

This excuses any lynch you want to make. I repeat, ANY lynch. By the way, You talk about figuring out the 'why' without logic but gut to support logic. Not by itself.

Besides excusing any lynch, you also excuse yourself for having double standards without explaining them. The 3 letter magic word: Gut.

Seriously, those who are voting Kagelord for Oso's reasons, need to answer me what they think about quadz08.

It just doesn't make sense. On top of that, why would you choose Kagelord over someone who you claimed to be suspicious of, like vezok. Just saying that any lynch satisfies you and that you will do whatever "you guys" want.

No, they don't. Do your own work. If you think that the reasons are bogus, attack the reasons and the person who first made them. Then worry about who might have followed along.

I was doing that. In fact, I had just done it. But you attack the attacker instead of the argument and move to stop my inspection of the wagon. Evading the real subject: A flawed case with a wagon of sheep.

2A - Show exactly(or even just generally) how my logic is flawed or doesn't hold together in relation to the case I presented against KageLord.

I did it plenty of times.

You claim that you're SURE that Kagelord is scum because
A)He pushed Vezok for the alleged lie relating review reply. He says only scum would vote someone for that discrepancy.
B) Kagelord does not express certainty about his lynch.
With that, he claims he won't change his vote for the day.

Deal with it

Both points are his opinions and lack real strength. Specially when, later on, he expresses B) does hold true for other players and is subject to his impossible to explain gut read (because it's gut, he claims).

2B - Link that as well into a case that shows not only am I am wrong but also how that might indicate my alignment as well.

you keep at it. You want me to prove you're scum or something? Where did you get that from? Because I'm asking you questions and disagreeing with you? I'll tell you why you're scum or town when I decide about it. For now, I just explain where you are wrong or right, from my point of view.

I've shown several times what is flawed about your case and how your 2 minimal points are not only extremely subjective but that you're also inconsistent about them and end up justifying an unpopular lynch (save for 2 shy sheep) with gut.

And each time, instead of addressing what I tell you about A and B you go towards yet another tangent. What I should do, How I should think, That I should offer Proof that you're scum, etc.

That's how it is, eh? I'm doing my own work.

I know you are. You hit on one of my pet peeves/self-defence actions. Namely that if you think I am scum and am deliberately trying to get KageLord lynched based on faulty logic then go with that.

When did I say this? Getting paranoid, are we? Conspiracy screams? You can be just wrong, you know? It HAS happened to others before.

Don't try to set up a situation where you can lynch someone then use my case on KageLord to show I am scum. Because you know what's going to happen? You'll lynch quadz and when he flips town you'll say "Oh shit, we lynched a townie, but Oso is still scum. My bad there quadz." If you think I am deliberately setting up KG for a lynch because I took some bits and pieces and threw together a case simply to get a townie lynched then lynch me.

Err... Do you even read what I write? Could you name my 2 top suspects? When did I say you're scum or try to get you lynched yet?
What's the purpose of this emotional speech? Gather supporters? Prepare for a future fight or what? What if you're wrong? What if we're both wrong?
Also, as you consider I think you're scum... Do you consider I am with all that speech?

If you want an informational lynch then call for one.

Please, Do not misrepresent me. This is a cheap tactic. I never wanted an information lynch. I'm going after my top scum suspect for the lynch and inspecting everyone else.

And if you are going to use a flip to try and determine my alignment then I suggest it be KageLord, that way you can use 'killed a townie or bussed a partner' no matter what happens. Might be easier too as you can start planning posts for either eventuality now and not wait for the flip.

You're the only one talking about flips as if they justified something. I'm not focusing on flips but on getting who I think is scum lynched.

You're acting like a fanatic. Saying I'll do a bunch of evil things in the future or something. What's the purpose of all this? Tarnishing my image? I resent that, although you admit quadz scummyness to some degree, you consider only the scenarios where he is town and I'm a criminal mastermind who is out to get you. This all sounds like a bad appeal to emotion.

And there you have it. I still don't know if you're just being a fanatic... Stubbornly holding to your beliefs and imagining conspiracies or what. You may be even right about kage, but you've shown nothing to justify his lynch so far and neither has the rest of the wagon.







[/quote]

[vezokpiraka]

Vanilla vezok likes day cause he can talk in the thread.
Non-Vanilla vezok doesn't likes days that go on forever cause he can't use the powers he has.

[Humble Poirot]

Vanilla vezok likes day cause he can talk in the thread.
Non-Vanilla vezok doesn't likes days that go on forever cause he can't use the powers he has.

vezok, either play or ask for a replacement. You seem to have given up and are using the time to take revenge for failing or something? Because I can see you check regularly to post stupidities as if you were being such a smart guy.

I won't be sad if they lynch you, even if you are a PR which you sometimes seem to be softclaiming. But the funny thing is that you refer to yourself as

Vanilla

Vezok. Is that some kind of alternative getaway in case you don't need to claim?

Don't throw WIFOM all around. Thanks.

[vezokpiraka]

Well no.
I refered to me as vanilla vezok cause that's the role that does nothing.
I am playing this game and enjoing it. I don't care if you don't like my playstyle. It paid off for me.

[diddin]

Humble I FoS'd Kage a while back when Oso first put heat on him, even though now, I think I'd put q21 up there because he still hasn't said why Humble is scum and Humble is on my town list.

[Humble Poirot]

Well no.
I refered to me as vanilla vezok cause that's the role that does nothing.
I am playing this game and enjoing it. I don't care if you don't like my playstyle. It paid off for me.

Fair enough, I got the wrong impression. Promise me you won't give up if you're town.

[vezokpiraka]

I never give. People seem to get that impresion.
I never give up.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

I'll look back at quadz08's original case on me:

This is part of his ISO #9. To me, what this statement boils down to is that if a player has a reasonable point saying that a player is not scum (or may not be scum, or whatever), he shouldn't bring it up if that person is thought to be scummy. That makes no sense to me. "Gee, I have this opinion that, if brought up, may keep us from lynching a townie. But that's a no-no! Only scum defend people!" I just don't see how forcing out opinions is pro-town in any way.

Putting most of your efforts toward defending a person does not always help prevent town lynches, not to mention, it can distract you from scum hunting. You should note that if you were to heavily defend a person and that person flips scum, you will probably gain a lot of suspicion for it.

SSBF made a pretty big deal about what was clearly a jokey vote. Like someone (diddin, maybe?) said earlier, it seems like he's grasping at straws. Yes, we were in the serious stage. But come on, it's a game, dangit! Let a man make a dumb joke. It meant nothing and did no harm to scumhunting. Not worth the attention it's gotten.

To be honest, the self-vote was pretty useless. I wouldn't have mind it during RVS, but all he needed to was say he was catching up and be done with it.

So you're voting someone that could only be anti-town over someone that is likely scummy?

No. vezokpiraka is always anti-town, regardless of alignments, that is why I said "anti-town at the very best". From this game, I highly doubt that vezokpiraka is just anti-town. This is scummy vezokpiraka at it's very worst.

@ SSBF: What do you think about quadz's vote on you? Why didn't you initially comment on it?

For someone who stated numerous times that I was scummy, he hasn't really brought much to the table as explained below.

As for why I didn't intially comment on it, I was trying to come up with a decent response to it, but could not think of one. At least I finally got it done.

Waiting for other scumtells to come out of him, and repeating that I think he is scum. There isn't much else to do, that I can see. I can't keep repeating the same case over and over, that would accomplish nothing, and look scummy.

This is exactly what you've been doing for the most post. Since your case on me started at ISO: 21, the only major points I can remember you adding are "gut" and "SSBF is ignoring my vote one me!". That really isn't doing much for your case on me. You also claim that you can't repeat the same case over and over again, yet you lacked new material for a case against me.

Now, SSBF. How serious do you think this post was. What was the point for calling a contradiction in the same sentence when you answered yourself? Wouldn't you agree this looks like active lurking from your part? As in, post void of content without openly showing so.

I'm not sure how I answered the questions myself that I asked to vezokpiraka. I looked at the quote and I saw none of it. I also highly disagree that it was actually active lurking, especially since I was trying to accomplish finding scums toward this quote (And of course many other ways).

SSBF: So you think it's likely that quadz and vezok are scumbuddies?

I would say so. His case on vezokpiraka was actually pretty good, but then over two things he found scummy with me, he switch his vote over me, adding little material to my case since then. Depending on the flip of vezokpiraka (If vezokpiraka gets lynched ToDay), I will look at quadz08 ISO for connections between him and vezokpiraka.

[xvart]

Waiting for other scumtells to come out of him, and repeating that I think he is scum. There isn't much else to do, that I can see. I can't keep repeating the same case over and over, that would accomplish nothing, and look scummy.

Let me get this straight. You think he is scum but you're still waiting for him to give MORE scumtells so you can get him lynched?
Repeating? How's that working for you?
Let's see... quadz is scum, quadz is scum, quadz is scum, quadz is scum... Ok, I did it 4 times. You can't avoid a lynch now...

Repeating a case over and over? Why don't you try to summarize your case? Did you read xvart's critique? And yet chose to safely ignore it in hopes that it be forgotten?

Don't worry, I noticed that he ignored my case and chose not to say anything about it. There really is nothing for scum to say when they are caught red handed as being scum. Don't worry either, because it won't be forgotten. In fact, I'm confident enough that unless something totally insane happens I will not be changing my vote the rest of the day. I almost think it's beneficial because I truly believe the scum are on the ropes right now, and the problem is going to be fishing out the third member (if there is one) from all the people that are hesitating to switch votes to such obvious scum.

In fact, to make it even more obvious and to generate discussion, I'm going to ask specifically:

@KageLord

- Read the information below. Do you really feel that your suspicions of vezok outweigh quadz's logic for his lynch preferences? If you think quadz is justified in his preference, why do you think quadz believes vezok is more suspicious than me? Also, why is your case stronger than what I have outlined?

@SSBF

- Read the information below. Do you really feel that your suspicions of vezok outweigh quadz's logic for his lynch preferences? If you think quadz is justified in his preference, why do you think quadz believes vezok is more suspicious than me? Also, why is your case stronger than what I have outlined?

@sotty7

- Read the information below. Do you really feel that your suspicions of vezok outweigh quadz's logic for his lynch preferences? If you think quadz is justified in his preference, why do you think quadz believes vezok is more suspicious than me? Also, why is your case stronger than what I have outlined?

@Tasky

- Read the information below. Do you really feel that your suspicions of vezok outweigh quadz's logic for his lynch preferences? If you think quadz is justified in his preference, why do you think quadz believes vezok is more suspicious than me? Also, why is your case stronger than what I have outlined?

@Oso

- Read the information below. Do you really feel that your suspicions of KageLord outweigh quadz's logic for his lynch preferences? If you think quadz is justified in his preference, why do you think quadz believes vezok is more suspicious than me? Also, why is your case stronger than what I have outlined?

@q21

- Read the information below. Do you really feel that your suspicions of KageLord outweigh quadz's logic for his lynch preferences? If you think quadz is justified in his preference, why do you think quadz believes vezok is more suspicious than me? Also, why is your case stronger than what I have outlined?

I'm going to go ahead and say that playing by gut is fine but it shouldn't be used as a tool to finagle lynch orders/preferences in such drastic ways.

Case Study by xvart #1:

Quadz lynch preference

1. SSBF
   -
   "defending people is a scum tell"
   ;
   attacking q21's self vote
   ; and,
   "gut"
   
   
2. vezok
   - short posts
   
3. xvart
   -
   "defending people is a scum tell"
   ;
   attacking q21's self vote

You can't possibly tell me that "gut" has that much sway in someone's mind about scum to boost the exact same case (not even taking into consideration SSBF's less aggressive approach and tenacity compared to me) over someone who posts are short?

xvart.

preview edit:

So you're voting someone that could only be anti-town over someone that is likely scummy?

No. vezokpiraka is always anti-town, regardless of alignments, that is why I said "anti-town at the very best". From this game, I highly doubt that vezokpiraka is just anti-town. This is scummy vezokpiraka at it's very worst.

What are the differences? Specifically? And in games where he is just simply anti-town town, how is he dealt with there?

SSBF: So you think it's likely that quadz and vezok are scumbuddies?

I would say so. His case on vezokpiraka was actually pretty good, but then over two things he found scummy with me, he switch his vote over me, adding little material to my case since then. Depending on the flip of vezokpiraka (If vezokpiraka gets lynched ToDay), I will look at quadz08 ISO for connections between him and vezokpiraka.

It still doesn't sound like you are too confident in vezok flipping scum. How about you look for those connections now? Or, even better, if vezok and quadz are likely scumbuddies, why don't you join the quadz bandwagon which has an actual case on him instead of just anti-town vs. scum rhetoric to support it?

xvart.

preview edit x2: looks like the quote colors are changing...

[xvart]

EBWOP (forgot to copy and paste from my other tab):

An important part about presenting cases is to make sure you present it in such a way that you don't look scummy, right? Only scummy people worry about looking scummy.

As to your first sentence: I agree, and I have done that to the best of my ability.
As to your second sentence: I disagree. If a townie looks scummy because of the way he's made a case on someone, then that distracts the town from looking for the real scum. This is what is happening now, methinks.

I was being sarcastic in the first sentence. Town people don't need to worry about looking scummy. They just need to worry about getting scum lynched and presenting cases that go to that end goal. Please explain the last sentence about what exactly you think is happening and to whom.

xvart.

[Oso]

Going to answer Poirot first and then get back to digging into xvart's post about quadz.
(Unless otherwise stated, all quotes are from Poirot in Post #329)

And there you have it. I still don't know if you're just being a fanatic...

Point to you, I can be fanatical about a person I am convinced is scum.

As to a KageLord lynch, I'm almost ready to back off that now. Here is why.

If you want an informational lynch then call for one. And if you are going to use a flip to try and determine my alignment then I suggest it be KageLord, that way you can use 'killed a townie or bussed a partner' no matter what happens. Might be easier too as you can start planning posts for either eventuality now and not wait for the flip.

That is my post to you Poirot but with the hope that KG would try and do something with it. And he did here:

Edit after preview: Again, I think a vezo lynch would provide just as much, if not more, information as my lynch. The vezo lynch has the added bonus of having a firm case against the lynchee other than "gut" and "information". If you're so adamant on getting that information, Oso, and you don't care whether vezo is scum or town, why not lynch vezo and use that in your case against me (and possibly Poirot as well) in the unlikely event that he flips town? Since you already got some attention in this wagon, imagine how much support you could get if the one I focused the most on was a townie.

Why wait to post this as long as I did? I wanted to see how you reacted to that post (#282) as well AND I'd really like to have jay back in here to explain his last before try to solidify any reads I have on you Poirot (or jay as well. I have you pegged as suspicious based on Friend's play mainly and jay is a town read up to the moment of his last).

Getting back to KG. He did react to that post but not as expected. Up to this point, I've made no bones about the fact I'd be happy to see him lynched. Several people have expressed doubts my about using subjective reasoning (gut, intuition) in my regards to KG. Fair enough. I tried to find some way to get some objective evidence (that I could use) against him to go along with it.

Short version, neither one of you reacted the way I thought you would to that post. KG reacted way off if he were scum. He stays with his focus on vezo as his lynch when there is a perfect opportunity there for him (or any one else for that matter) to go off on the misrep of you in that post. Plus he goes on to invite me to be free to use it against him (and you) if he was wrong. Taken in context with the post of his I picked apart, that is enough for me to switch him back to the neutral category. My overall

impression

of his posts have changed from 'likely scum piling on as many crap reasons as possible' to 'maybe he is unsure town'. One thing that it did convince me of is that if he does flip scum, then you aren't. He tied himself to you to closely on that one.

And you Poirot, you had ample opportunity to go off on me as well in a big way, but you didn't. No one would thought anything about OMGUS if you had taken your vote off of quadz and pushed me. You didn't. You even gave me an out to use. Scum, at least in my experience, don't do that for others.

I'm not 100% convinced either or both of you are town but the odds of either of you being scum, by my way of thinking, have greatly diminished. I am certain enough the say that you guys aren't scum together though.

Last thought, this is something I didn't want to point to before. Vezo's softclaim? breadcrumb? here and KG's pointing at it out in the very last part of his post here. I noticed vezo's post there as well and almost joined KG in asking for an explanation. I didn't because by that point he(vezo) had answered it sort of. I checked several times to make sure I wasn't missing something and all vezo does is explain the second line of the post.

I had noticed what vezo said, I also know KG saw it as he pointed it out. But he didn't pursue it. No one else did either so I made a snap assumption (hope maybe) that perhaps no one else, other than KG and myself, had seen it either. That was blown out the window when Poirot said this:

I won't be sad if they lynch you, even if you are a PR which you sometimes seem to be softclaiming.

So I'm going to go ahead and think almost everyone saw it for what I think it was: A breadcrumb/softclaim. The only reason that made sense to me was that KG came to the same conclusion but instead of backing off if he was town and he thought that pointing to a softclaim of someone might tip off others, he continues to attack veso but without referring back to it. I came up with several scenarios as to why I might do it. The one that stood the most was that if given long enough, with the way vezo is playing, there will be ample fuel to make a case that vezo is scum/lying rather town/claiming when it comes down to an RC. Points to the fact that only scum would go ahead and hope that someone didn't see it and still keep attacking vezo. If he were town and thought vezo was scum setting up a breadcrumb for lying on an RC, hammer that softclaim hard would have been the way to go. If he thought vezo was setting up a legitimate breadcrumb then as town, he would have stilled ignored it but he would have found a way to get off of vezo.

Naturally, I didn't point that out in my attacks on KG because I myself hoped that no one had seen it or had dismissed it, since I already had suspicions of KG and to a lesser extent Poirot, I went with the town side of the argument in vezo's favor. So time to cover the PR and get the scum lynched who is sandbagging him in the process.

Now that is out I have a question for KG before I actually go so far as to unvote him.

Why did you post this:

Well, this is either everything or nothing. I can think of only one logical explanation that doesn't involve vezo being a PR (scum or town), though it does involve some strange wording on vezo's part. However, I don't want to say it and I don't want anyone else, other than vezo, to. So, vezo, what did you mean by the bolded?

Plus, I'm not sure who you actually questioned here, other than asking Friend his top suspects.

And never follow up on it?

[Oso]

@xvart.

@Oso - Read the information below. Do you really feel that your suspicions of KageLord outweigh quadz's logic for his lynch preferences? If you think quadz is justified in his preference, why do you think quadz believes vezok is more suspicious than me? Also, why is your case stronger than what I have outlined?

Hopefully my last post will answer some of your concerns about myself before I can address this directly.

[q21]

Humble I FoS'd Kage a while back when Oso first put heat on him, even though now, I think I'd put q21 up there because he still hasn't said why Humble is scum and Humble is on my town list.

Please point me to where I have ever stated that I think Humble is scum.

[xvart]

Please point me to where I have ever stated that I think Humble is scum.

Please answer my question and participate in discussion that is not directly related to you.

xvart.

[diddin]

Humble I FoS'd Kage a while back when Oso first put heat on him, even though now, I think I'd put q21 up there because he still hasn't said why Humble is scum and Humble is on my town list.

Please point me to where I have ever stated that I think Humble is scum.

*headdesk*

I meant jayfl, sorry.

[KageLord]

@KageLord

- Read the information below. Do you really feel that your suspicions of vezok outweigh quadz's logic for his lynch preferences? If you think quadz is justified in his preference, why do you think quadz believes vezok is more suspicious than me? Also, why is your case stronger than what I have outlined?
xvart.

First off, I will agree with you that there seems to be something off in quadz's lynch list logic as you presented it. I will have to go back and look at his reasoning to make sure it's not a misrep though. But even if it is actually all the reasoning he gave, that still only puts him at about 3rd or 4th in my list. Bad (or just absent) logic can come from town just as much as scum. Still, when it is related to their voting choices, perhaps it should be regarded as a bit suspicious. Because I don't believe that it is a strong scumtell, I still think the case (not just mine, but all that has been brought up so far) against vezok is stronger.

Now that is out I have a question for KG before I actually go so far as to unvote him.

Why did you post this:

Well, this is either everything or nothing. I can think of only one logical explanation that doesn't involve vezo being a PR (scum or town), though it does involve some strange wording on vezo's part. However, I don't want to say it and I don't want anyone else, other than vezo, to. So, vezo, what did you mean by the bolded? Plus, I'm not sure who you actually questioned here, other than asking Friend his top suspects.

And never follow up on it?

I didn't follow up on it because vezok's response was a possible one. The logical explanation I mentioned in that post was that vezok meant "tonight" as in real-time and not in-game. That is the explanation that vezok ended up giving, so I dropped it. But, now that vezok has seemingly softclaimed since then, my original assumption about the meaning of vezok's post makes a lot more sense. The only question now is what to do about it.

And with all this talk about jay, I'm wondering what is up with him too. I still think it's likely that he's a lyncher.

[q21]

@xvart - Patience. I wanted to read some more of your post about quadz before commenting.

Looking back at that post 296, I think I like your reasoning. The discrepancy in his order of suspicion (mentioned in 296 and 274 before that) is scummy. I had to check for myself that those reason are indeed the primary ones for his vote on SSBF; Quadz states quite clearly that that is the case in 200. I'd like to note also that I dislike this post:

So... IMHO, jay is either being REALLY dumb, or telling the truth. I'm leaning towards really dumb.

Any player with brains should know that in a normal game, having a role (especially an investigative one) that can be used before N1 is remarkably rare. In fact, I don't know of any roles that CAN investigate before N1. Unless the mod decided to try something new out (which I don't

think

is standard procedure in normal games), jay is making things up.

Here are my options:
A) Jay is a day-cop, who's telling the truth, albeit stupidly.
B) Jay is a lyncher, who's going about it remarkably obtusely.
C) Jay is a jester, which isn't a huge stretch after that post.

Whatever the case may be, his method of producing that information was quite foolish, methinks. I'm unsure what to think of his alignment, but I do find it possible that he could be a jester... or a mafia-aligned bomb? Or some such thing.

Please explain, jay.

Where he goes about offering possible explanations for a post which I'd be surprised even jay himself can explain properly. Why exactly he's doing it, I don't know. Maybe he's trying to take the heat of a scumbuddy who's just done something stupid. Maybe he's trying to post something that looks like meaningful content, but isn't. Either way, I don't much like this post.

Unvote, Vote Quadz

Yes, yes... I can here the parrot and sheep noises already.



Another point, xvart. I understand your reasoning for why you think quadz and SSBF are scum together. There is, however, also the possibility that you and quadz are scum together. He's picked up on some things he can make a half-decent case on SSBF with (note, only

half

-decent. It has a ways to go before it reaches properly decent). He's scum and he wants to lynch SSBF-town, so he runs with what he has; he puts vezok at lynch priority 2 because its the easy choice.

Then, as the good player you are (and I get the impression from your posts that you are a good player) you point out the hole in his case despite being his scumbuddy. The hole being that the same reasoning applied to SSBF applies to you too. quadz realises he can't not suspect you at all, but you're his scumbuddy and he doesn't want you lynched. So he tacks and extra (and rather lame) reason onto his suspicion of SSBF and then tacks you onto his lynch priority at 3 - where he'll probably never have to act on it.

Maybe I'm seeing things that aren't there, but maybe not. If he's suspecting two people different amounts for the same things it follows just as logically - of not moreso - that he's partnered with the one he suspects less than with the one he suspects more.

[xvart]

As for diddin - I think the context of his unvote and claim that "we" need to look at the wagon is he is trying to gain town points by not only getting off a probable town lynch considering he never himself went back to look at the wagon. That's the only justification I can think of considering L-2 isn't that scary. And the backpeddle is even more damning after he says he doesn't analyze wagons until after flips. My question is how do you analyze a wagon that you are abandoning if it never goes through to fruition? Now that the quadz wagon is gaining a little steam I'll go back and ISO diddin fully to see his connection to quadz.

First off, I will agree with you that there seems to be something off in quadz's lynch list logic as you presented it. I will have to go back and look at his reasoning to make sure it's not a misrep though. But even if it is actually all the reasoning he gave, that still only puts him at about 3rd or 4th in my list. Bad (or just absent) logic can come from town just as much as scum. Still, when it is related to their voting choices, perhaps it should be regarded as a bit suspicious. Because I don't believe that it is a strong scumtell, I still think the case (not just mine, but all that has been brought up so far) against vezok is stronger.

There is more to it. Read the build up to that point and you'll get the full picture.

There is, however, also the possibility that you and quadz are scum together. He's picked up on some things he can make a half-decent case on SSBF with (note, only

half

-decent. It has a ways to go before it reaches properly decent). He's scum and he wants to lynch SSBF-town, so he runs with what he has; he puts vezok at lynch priority 2 because its the easy choice.

Then, as the good player you are (and I get the impression from your posts that you are a good player) you point out the hole in his case despite being his scumbuddy. The hole being that the same reasoning applied to SSBF applies to you too. quadz realises he can't not suspect you at all, but you're his scumbuddy and he doesn't want you lynched. So he tacks and extra (and rather lame) reason onto his suspicion of SSBF and then tacks you onto his lynch priority at 3 - where he'll probably never have to act on it.

Maybe I'm seeing things that aren't there, but maybe not. If he's suspecting two people different amounts for the same things it follows just as logically - of not moreso - that he's partnered with the one he suspects less than with the one he suspects more.

Now this is a good observation, and I encourage you to follow it. As I've said before when I preempted my suspicions of SSBF, as long as quadz gets the noose today we can debate his partners tomorrow.

xvart.

[Oso]

Ok,

Now that is out I have a question for KG before I actually go so far as to unvote him.

Why did you post this:

Well, this is either everything or nothing. I can think of only one logical explanation that doesn't involve vezo being a PR (scum or town), though it does involve some strange wording on vezo's part. However, I don't want to say it and I don't want anyone else, other than vezo, to. So, vezo, what did you mean by the bolded? Plus, I'm not sure who you actually questioned here, other than asking Friend his top suspects.

And never follow up on it?

I didn't follow up on it because vezok's response was a possible one. The logical explanation I mentioned in that post was that vezok meant "tonight" as in real-time and not in-game. That is the explanation that vezok ended up giving, so I dropped it. But, now that vezok has seemingly softclaimed since then, my original assumption about the meaning of vezok's post makes a lot more sense. The only question now is what to do about it.

I can buy that. If nothing else it explains why you would ignore it and still keep after vezo if you were town, at least by my way of thinking. It probably goes without saying but I'll say it anyway: I've still got my eye on you.

UNVOTE: KageLord

quadz, is another matter. I'm stubborn, as I think I've just shown and it will take just about as much to blast him out of my town read as it did to blast KageLord out of a "lynch him, like now" read. The main difference here is that I have been picking KageLord's (and to a lesser extent Poirot's) posts apart letter by letter and let everyone go about their business. So quadz (and everyone else) has gotten much less scrutiny by me than those two.

xvart makes a good case. At no point does his reasoning seem forced or that he's reaching. Grasping at straws is the term a few have used at various times in the thread. I don't see that with xvart's case on quadz.

With a nod to q21's caution about xvart's reasoning also being valid for xvart/quadz team as well as it does for a SSBF/quadz team, I'll:

VOTE: quadz

As stated, xvart makes a good case and instead of rehashing it and pointing out specifically what I like or dislike about any point, I'll say that quadz responses to xvart's (and other's) questions and points have been unsatisfactory.

Finally this:

Now this is a good observation, and I encourage you to follow it. As I've said before when I preempted my suspicions of SSBF, as long as quadz gets the noose today we can debate his partners tomorrow.

He's put himself on the line with that post and that does give him a lot of points with me. For consistency's sake, the impression I get is that xvart is doing this honestly because there is no indication, to me, that he simply going after a weak town player (an option I had considered) but rather that he honestly thinks he has caught scum. And I agree.

[Sotty7]

Yes I do.

Yes you do... What?

= = = = =

@ q21 and xvart:

What's your opinion of vezo right now and the wagon on him?

If I have to I'll vote him before deadline. A vezo lynch is better than no lynch. I still want more KageLord votes, though.

That's not really an opinion on vezo though is it?

= = = = =

Okay. Tell me, outside of your vote what are you doing to get SSBF lynched?

Waiting for other scumtells to come out of him, and repeating that I think he is scum. There isn't much else to do, that I can see. I can't keep repeating the same case over and over, that would accomplish nothing, and look scummy.

But you're also not pressuring or questioning him at all. It's like you have pulled a chair up next to him and are just staring at him waiting for something to happen. Pressuring people is the best to get scum tells to drop. The waiting game rarely works if at all.

= = = = =

I'd like to have more input from sotty regarding quadz (I'm aware you spoke a bit about him). What do you think about my case?. q21's opinion would be interesting too.

The biggest thing that came out of my iso read of quadz, in my opinion at least, was his vote on SSBF and then BOTH players pretty much ignoring it afterwards. His answers since haven't been compelling either. Still I am finding players like vezo and diddin scummier at this point.

Once I have caught up with the posts I have missed I will take a look back at your case on him in particular.

= = = = =

For someone who stated numerous times that I was scummy, he hasn't really brought much to the table as explained below.

As for why I didn't intially comment on it, I was trying to come up with a decent response to it, but could not think of one. At least I finally got it done.

Actually, it looks more like you were ignoring it, hoping it would go away and I backed you into a corner and had to answer.

So yeah, not good.

= = = = =

@sotty7

- Read the information below. Do you really feel that your suspicions of vezok outweigh quadz's logic for his lynch preferences? If you think quadz is justified in his preference, why do you think quadz believes vezok is more suspicious than me? Also, why is your case stronger than what I have outlined?

The key point of your case is quadz lynch preferences, I'm not sure why you think this is as strong as you seem to be making it. For one, it is day one, it doesn't take much to push someone to the top of my suspect list over another. I still think the fact quadz voted SSBF and then both of them ignoring the vote afterward is stronger than your interpretation of his top three suspects.

I am becoming open to the fact that vezo is a likely lightening rod. I have never played with him before but have modded him once. I could switch over to quadz, but it would be for the whole vote situation, not for your case study one.

= = = = =

I am going to say that I don't like the talk of bussing that is floating around already. I'm more about actually getting a scum flip

first

then looking at those possible situations.

Unvote, Vote: diddin

I find his unvote of vezo very scummy and his explanations for it just don't sway me away from the that belief and in fact made him look worse. By saying that he expected other people to look at the wagon (doing the work for him.) and then not ever mentioning said wagon again, is all very fake. He is also sitting in the back ground as much as he can. Feels like he is trying to hide behind the discussion.

I am open to switching over to quadz but I am going to

request a vote count

to see where we are right now. There is a decent case on quadz but I'm not convinced he is as obv scum as some of you seem to be.

[Sotty7]

Humble, your case on quadz is pretty good. He has been wishy washy and slow to commit, very timid to make any kind of waves. It is suspicious, I agree.

IMPORTANT

Homework: search quadz in ISO and look for the names Kage and vezo. Vezo is voted by quadz after agreeing with Kagelord. Vezo is repeatedly signaled as the scummiest person so far until ISO 21 where he votes against SSBF (causing a 3-3 tie vezok-Kage)

As other suspects, he mentions Vezok, Kagelord and xvart. Kagelord had never been mentioned before (save that agreement against vezok). Suspected for the first time, now that Kage is tied against vezok (whom quadz was voting).

If this doesn't seem extremely fishy... I don't know what does.

Are you saying that he is sheeping here? Also I'm not getting what you are driving at as far as the 3-3 tie with vezo and Kage goes. I'm not making the connection on how that is important.