Mafia 1010 - Perpetual MyLo - Game Over

[Lowell]

Reck mentions my lack of posts, and immediately two quietish folks show up to cast votes.

fos brian and david

Interesting how that happens.

David just looks lazy, and brians post looks like someone trying to overexplain a simple idea (vote lurkers, wake them up). I receive enough votes to know when someone is casting it with a guilty conscience.

[xRECKONERx]

@Reck: Wow, even more scum slip. From your action I can infer that you like bandwagoning.

Bandwagoning isn't a scumtell. ALSO I HERD U LIEK MUDKIPZ

So why are you suddenly getting all overly defensive when a bandwagon is on you.

Because it was a poor bandwagon built on shitty logic.

I myself don't oppose to bandwagon, but the point of scumminess in your and Knight's vote on SD is you don't focus on his main argument to bandwagon but rather disgress on the minor coincidence that he is OGMUSing.

Is this even English?

Thus I see your actions as clear attempt to be one of the first to be on a wagon to lynch a town. And that makes me think SD is town too, Exilon is being taken advantage of and Knight being your partner.

Positioning of voters on a townie's wagon is a null tell.

[nopointinactingup]

@Reck: Wow, even more scum slip. From your action I can infer that you like bandwagoning.

Bandwagoning isn't a scumtell. ALSO I HERD U LIEK MUDKIPZ

Bandwagon isn't a scum tell so why act all paranoid when someone tries to bandwagon you? And don't call others your (pokemon?) please.

So why are you suddenly getting all overly defensive when a bandwagon is on you.

Because it was a poor bandwagon built on shitty logic.

Care to tell why it's shitty instead of making shitty fluffs?

I myself don't oppose to bandwagon, but the point of scumminess in your and Knight's vote on SD is you don't focus on his main argument to bandwagon but rather disgress on the minor coincidence that he is OGMUSing.

Is this even English?

Hmm .. It's more English than any of your posts have ever been. I'm guessing you are drunk again. And drunks don't understand English pity on you.

Thus I see your actions as clear attempt to be one of the first to be on a wagon to lynch a town. And that makes me think SD is town too, Exilon is being taken advantage of and Knight being your partner.

Positioning of voters on a townie's wagon is a null tell.

[/quote]

No sir. I'm more inclined to believe the 1st few slots of a townie wagon are more innocent than the last few.

[xRECKONERx]

Bandwagon isn't a scum tell so why act all paranoid when someone tries to bandwagon you? And don't call others your (pokemon?) please.

The actual ACT of bandwagoning in and of itself isn't a scumtell, because scum can bus and townies can be wrong. However, the way in which someone bandwagons or the case(or lack thereof) which they use for support CAN be a towntell/scumtell.

Care to tell why it's shitty instead of making shitty fluffs?

Care to tell me why you think this logic IS a good reason for voting me?
Reck discussed the possibility of using a randomiser to decide the lynch for today.
This suggestion is stupid in my opinion.
Therefore, Reck is scum.

Hmm .. It's more English than any of your posts have ever been. I'm guessing you are drunk again. And drunks don't understand English pity on you.

No, I'm being serious. I have no fucking clue what you're trying to say in that post. That second bit of the sentence is such a jumble of words and fragments that it's difficult to work out in my head, but I'll try to respond:

How exactly did Knight and I attack his OMGUS and what do you mean 'his main argument to bandwagon'?

No sir. I'm more inclined to believe the 1st few slots of a townie wagon are more innocent than the last few.

So then why am I scummy for being in the first slot if this is your belief?

[Max]

"Need MOAR Grammar Nazis"

VOTE COUNT 3

Shadow Dancer - 4 (Exilon, xRECKONERx, KnightofZero, Lowell)
Lowell - 3 (Destructor, BrianJ, David Parker)
xRECKONERx - 2 (Shadow Dancer, nopointinactingup)
nopointactingup - 1 (Thief)
Thief - 1 (Quoi)

Not Voted (MagnaofIllusion)

12 Alive, 7 To Lynch

[DavidParker]

*Hands NPIAU his shovel*

[nopointinactingup]

Glad to see something productive here.

The actual ACT of bandwagoning in and of itself isn't a scumtell, because scum can bus and townies can be wrong.

However, the way in which someone bandwagons or the case(or lack thereof) which they use for support CAN be a towntell/scumtell.

Which is exactly why I'm accusing you of bandwagoning SD. SD posted some mechanic contents and you guys disagreed on it. Then you suddenly bandwagon-ed SD solely because he had an OGMUS vote, failing to point out anything wrong with his logic. This is even worst than bandwagon with a lack of case. This is bandwagoning with invalid and misleading evidence.

Care to tell me why you think this logic IS a good reason for voting me?
Reck discussed the possibility of using a randomiser to decide the lynch for today.
This suggestion is stupid in my opinion.
Therefore, Reck is scum.

I never said this?

No sir. I'm more inclined to believe the 1st few slots of a townie wagon are more innocent than the last few.

So then why am I scummy for being in the first slot if this is your belief?

Because you were trying to get on the town-like position of a wagon with unbelievably misleading evidence.

[xRECKONERx]

But I don't subscribe to the theory that the first few slots on a townie wagon are more innocent. First few slots on a scum's wagon? Maybe. Not a townie's wagon. Scum and town alike could just as easily put down the first vote on a townie.

However, I just went back and read the vote in question, and I'll agree it was a weak vote. Now that a bandwagon has been adequately formed, however, I'm comfortable with an

unvote

pending further analysis. Yes, SD's OMGUS on Exilon was pretty damn awful, but the people who tried to slide in behind the whole me vs. SD controversy are even more suspicious.

Also, NPIAU is town.

[Exilon]

NPIAU(/nopoint; what should we call you?) forgot to address something which I found important.

No, I'm being serious. I have no fucking clue what you're trying to say in that post. That second bit of the sentence is such a jumble of words and fragments that it's difficult to work out in my head, but I'll try to respond:

How exactly did Knight and I attack his OMGUS and what do you mean 'his main argument to bandwagon'?

---

@Lowell

: Where does Shadow Dancer stand now? Why didn't your vote move, if you find others scummier?

---

What I said that this town - every one, including me - desperately needs to stop to be a bunch of pissed of jerks blindly savaging each other. That will just cause town to turn against itself and give mafia an easy vitory.

I don't like this at all. so far I haven't seen people acting more distrustfully than what is usually seen on normal games, so why are you trying to make this look like 'chaos'?

Thus I consider and will keep to consider most of the attacks against me on this ground antitown and posibly scum driven, my OMGUS votes are well justified.

Your OMGUS votes are not really well justified. I can see so for Reck, but you voted me for disagreeing with you and believing that that strategy was scum faking a genuine attempt at helping town. Also you misread me, called me stupid, and didn't even bother to comment on my post which answered to you, simply changing your vote to Reck in a contentless post, which effectively does not make any mention to the reason you advocated as being the one for the OMGUS vote.

So, wanna keep burying yourself, or...?

[destructor]

Re: SD, I don't understand what his wagon was about. The biggest event I saw was his "OMGUS" vote on Exilon/Reckoner and his theorising, neither of which I see as reason to believe he is scum. Magma's vote seemed to come mostly from disliking SD's strategy suggestions, which again I don't see as a reason to believe SD is scum (in fact I believe his ideas have been fairly valid besides the reliance on scum choosing to kill after a no lynch). I found his comment about SD looking "worse for the wear" from his debate with Reckoner odd. Lowell's vote also seems very insubstantial and easy. KnightofZero's vote seemed random to me and placed before the SD wagon seemed serious. Not sure if much can be read from that.

Suggesting that theorising is scummy or anti-town is bullshit. SD made specific mentions of cold, hard probabilities and how certain actions could

increase the town's chance of winning

. Unless those players that had a problem with this checked his numbers and found them to be false or misleading, I don't see how they could see that as much else than dictionary pro-town.

@ Reckoner

, OMGUS to me is something only a townie can do - "Omg i'm town and you're voting me so you must be scum!". How did SD's OMGUS votes make you think he was more likely scum? If it didn't, then what made you "keep thinking of more reasons" to want to lynch him?
Also, I didn't see Exilon's post you linked to as obviously town. Can you point to specific examples of Exilon's town play that made you think of his town-meta?

It's not what he has done that makes him town, it's the lack of what makes him scum. Usually scum-Reck is a little more content with following other people around. Also saying that while drunk. And no, this isn't set on stone. This is the first time I'm playing with him.

You mentioned a meta-bias on your read of him. I want to see where this comes from. Can you show us how Reckoner isn't playing to a consistent scum-meta?


I'd say there's scum in {Exilon, Reckoner, Magma, Lowell, KoZ/molestargazer}.

[destructor]

we're currently short of pages actually.

=/= short of content, which is what we're aiming for. Thanks for contributing.

<3
This almost makes me want to put Exilon in my town list.

destructor, can you further explain how

That being said: Let's stop this whole discussion now and start some real scumhunting! Yes: With real discussiun and real votes and a real lynch threat. And I mean that.

is town-tell? It is null tell at best; mafia has nothing to lose by casually saying "guys lets discuss" without actually providing something to discuss about.

Sorry, I should have specified. It was the "real lynch threat" part I liked. That along with what looked like OMGUSing made me think he was likely town.

[Shadow Dancer]

What I said that this town - every one, including me - desperately needs to stop to be a bunch of pissed of jerks blindly savaging each other. That will just cause town to turn against itself and give mafia an easy vitory.

I don't like this at all. so far I haven't seen people acting more distrustfully than what is usually seen on normal games, so why are you trying to make this look like 'chaos'?

The lack of objecticity in the attacks against me only allow three conclusions:
1.) The attackers where VIs who did not understand what I was trying to explain.
2.) The attackers where scum, trying to inhibit strategy debates, because a disoriented town helps scum (it is reasonable to assume that at least some of ther attacks had this motivation, could be associated with 1.), of course).
3.) The attackers where just over the top paranoid, thus not able to react rationally, like making their own calculations, actually trying to prove me wrong or to improve my strategy.

Take for example the argument that scum could "much more easily win LyLo by blockvoting" - it's obviously not that simple if scum don't want to hand themselves over oj a silver plate.
Any way, then I make a suggestion that town could prevent that by agreeing on a lynch target without voting - and I receive more flak for it.
That those two attacks on me came from positions contradicting each other should at least make you think how rational the waggon on me is.

In your special case, to me it seems more like you're personally concerned because I called you stupid. So: Sorry for that. I really didn't meant to offend you, if I'd wannted to I'd have had available much more striking words.

[Shadow Dancer]

unvote. vote lowell

Upon reread I do not xRx really scumm any more, apart from his opportunistic "I like SD waggon more and more". I think both of us where more bored than anything, maybe he was really drunk...
Lowell on the other hand just threw a vote on a waggon - also opportunistic - without further explanation and there's also no other contribution by him so far. If you wanna call it OMGUS - well, right now it is statistically rather unlikely that I don't OMGUS vote .

[xRECKONERx]

Now, the Lowell wagon I can support.

@ Reckoner, OMGUS to me is something only a townie can do - "Omg i'm town and you're voting me so you must be scum!". How did SD's OMGUS votes make you think he was more likely scum? If it didn't, then what made you "keep thinking of more reasons" to want to lynch him?
Also, I didn't see Exilon's post you linked to as obviously town. Can you point to specific examples of Exilon's town play that made you think of his town-meta?

1) OMGUS is a null tell, just stop. Scum can just as easily go, "OMG you're attacking me so I'm going to counter-vote you!"
2) Because it was a weak response to Exilon. He switched from a "serious vote" on me to a "serious vote" on Exilon, all because of theory debate.
3) It did.
4) I don't have any specific examples because I've never played with Exilon before, but based on what I saw him play as scum in Guys, Pt. 2 mafia (just finished) and based on how players in the game described his play, he's playing more to his town meta here: you know, actually trying, not coasting by and making excuses. I know that Exi hates being scum and thus is less interested and less likely to actively participate in the game as scum.

[Exilon]

You mentioned a meta-bias on your read of him. I want to see where this comes from. Can you show us how Reckoner isn't playing to a consistent scum-meta?

As I said, it's not set on stone. The how has been stated, the where is Scummer's Greatest Bash, where as scum he played awfully (yet got away with it).
By the way, Destructor, could you please point out what exactly you find scummy about me? I ran a ISO and there's nothing about suspicions on me. There is also NOTHING about Magna. Yet we are on the "possible scum list".

Explain, please.

Also, I approve of the Lowell wagon. Not because I find him necessarily scummy, but because he hasn't got posts for a good evluation to exist. SO LOWELL F* START CONTRIBUTING OR GET HAZED.
For starters:
1) Who's scum? why?

[molestargazer]

Hello all, I'm not entirely sure who I'm replacing, but, I'm here, and will get caught up ASAP.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Reck mentions my lack of posts, and immediately two quietish folks show up to cast votes. fos brian and david Interesting how that happens.

And you showing up and trying to throw suspicion on other lurkers isn’t scummy as all get out?

And why aren’t you FOSing Quoi or Thief who are just as quiet, if not more so, than those you mentioned.

VOTE: Lowell

Positioning of voters on a townie's wagon is a null tell.

Um how do you know that Shadow is town, and thus your position on his wagon is null?

[Lowell]

And huzzah, scum emerge to jump to join the Lowell bandwagon once it has started. Imagine my surprise. Unvote so I can put some thought into this and get some scum for you.

[xRECKONERx]

Magna, shut up. I was clearly referencing the hypothetical wagon as we were discussing mafia theory.

STRAWMAN ARGUMENTS FTMFL

Vote: Magna

Votes Lowell (which, Lowell is quite scummy, but this just screams 'TOTALLY SCUMMY TOWNIE WHO'D BE EASY TO WAGON' with how quick votes are being thrown his way), strawmans my argument, yeah.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Wow .. it doesn't take much to get your unhelpful CAPS LOCK persona to appear.

And for the record asking a question isn't strawmanning. But nice try throwing whatever WikiBuzzWordofTheDay is on your calendar.

Your defense of Lowell is noted. I like how you repeatedly say he is scummy but don’t bother to vote for him.

[xRECKONERx]

Lowell's too scummy to be scum.

Also:

Um how do you know that Shadow is town, and thus your position on his wagon is null?

That IS strawmanning, because you're implying my argument about the wagon positioning was related to an actual in-game situation and NOT clearly about a hypothetical situation (as it actually was).

[MagnaofIllusion]

And huzzah, scum emerge to jump to join the Lowell bandwagon once it has started. Imagine my surprise. Unvote so I can put some thought into this and get some scum for you.

Not responding to the direct question that was posed regarding his FOS for some lurkers and not others? Check.

Meaningless mudslinging with nothing related to support? Check.

Huzzah ... classic scum-tastic response.

That IS strawmanning, because you're implying my argument about the wagon positioning was related to an actual in-game situation and NOT clearly about a hypothetical situation (as it actually was).

Yeah, that’s complete bullshit. Let’s review …

Thus I see your actions as clear attempt to be one of the first to be on a wagon to lynch a town. And that makes me think SD is town too, Exilon is being taken advantage of and Knight being your partner.

If you think this is theoretical discussion you are fooling yourself.

Positioning of voters on a townie's wagon is a null tell.

This is your direct response. So you are trying to say I’m straw-manning because you were discussing theoretical lynches? Why in the hell are you responding to an actual game comment with theory?

Yeah, your argument is busted. I know you aren’t stupid so why are you making obviously bad posts?

Lowell's too scummy to be scum.

Insert Facepalm pic of choice here ….

[xRECKONERx]

Because I was arguing from a theory standpoint. I wasn't arguing from the point of anyone being a townie/non-townie.

[destructor]

1) OMGUS is a null tell, just stop. Scum can just as easily go, "OMG you're attacking me so I'm going to counter-vote you!"
2) Because it was a weak response to Exilon. He switched from a "serious vote" on me to a "serious vote" on Exilon, all because of theory debate.
3) It did.

The point I make is that only a pro-town player can "honestly" get all OMGUSy. That's how I see the term. This is a semantic thing for me. OMGUS is a shit argument from any alignment, so I tend to see it as bad play more than anything else. But, if it looks genuine, then I can't help seeing it as a minor town-tell. In 2), it's like you're saying you thought SD was scummy for making a poor argument, which is forgivable on page 2, but then you went on to say this:

Your wagon is becoming more attractive because I keep thinking of more reasons I want to lynch you.

Did you have more reasons? What were they?


This is what's irked me about you and Exilon. You both made claims of reading each other as town based on meta, but didn't do much to back that up. You both also seemed totally interested in lynching SD. Then steam grew on the SD wagon and it didn't feel kosher.

Now you've explained what that meta experience is, and it doesn't seems especially solid. Making a quick temporary'ish call about who's town early in the game makes sense to me - I like doing that. But it was the apparent insistence on the town-reads of each other that I found harder to believe.


I'm pretty content with my vote on Lowell.
Lowell, you can contribute just fine without anyone having to unvote.

[destructor]

By the way, Destructor, could you please point out what exactly you find scummy about me? I ran a ISO and there's nothing about suspicions on me. There is also NOTHING about Magna. Yet we are on the "possible scum list".

Explain, please.

I cover it in my last post. Basically, your involvement in the SD-hate and clearing of Reckoner based on very little.