Mini 990: YuGiOh! The Abridged Mafia - (OVER)

[FakeGod]

@Pom: Fishy's saying that my claim makes sense. Why does that make me look bad?

ATTENTION DUELISTS

MY HAIR WOULD LIKE TO ANNOUNCE THE VOTECOUNT!

AlmasterGM (0) -
Brandi (1) - Charter
bv310 (0) -
charter (1) - FakeGod
FakeGod (3) - InflatablePie Pomegranate bv310
Fishythefish (1) - AlmasterGM
InflatablePie (2) - Jarti Brandi
Jarti (0) -
MaxMouse (0) -
Pomegranate (0) -

10 alive, 6 to lynch

[Pomegranate]

@Pom: Fishy's saying that my claim makes sense. Why does that make me look bad?

This is what I'm talking about:

However, it still makes total sense - in fact

even more sense

- if they are unconfirmed neighbour-type roles (or any paired unconfirmed role).

Bold is mine.

This unconfirmed- neighbor idea makes more sense, but if this is the case, then it appears that you would have lied about your role, which looks bad.

[Fishythefish]

@FG: I’m saying that your claim makes sense with chrono’s breadcrumb; but an unconfirmed pair of roles for you and chrono makes even more sense. Which, of course, would make you scum. I don’t think this is conclusive, but I certainly don’t think chrono’s crumb is a point in your favour; I count it as a point against you.

FakeGod’s “3 claims” post got him lots of votes. Clearly it’s a terrible idea, but tbh I can’t see scum thinking “how shall I get role information? I know! I’ll ask them for it! AHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!”.

His claim is… weird. If they were mason-like roles, they were nerfed by no night talking, not flipping masons and having a role name that means something else. Chrono’s breadcrumb, plus the early and bizarre claim from FG, convince me that there is

some

sort of Chrono-FG link going on here. Flipping VT makes it more likely to be a none standard role, and overall FG’s claim isn’t that unbelievable. I have no particular read on him.

MM

For most of day 1, right up until the dram wagon, MM’s play was active lurking; he gave practically no reads on anyone, and did nothing that was likely to lead to a scum lynch (or indeed anything). Even when giving a scumread on Chrono, I didn’t feel he was trying to get Chrono lynched, or even convince people of his point of view. This stopped in style, when he went strongly after Dram. Today, he has returned to not doing much; I have no idea who he wants dead or why.

I don’t think that MM’s play is a particularly unlikely bus. He made two posts:
1. When dram had 3 votes, he made noises about joining dram’s wagon, if dram didn’t respond satisfactorily.
2. When dram had 4 votes, he voted him, and committed himself to the wagon.
There’s nothing particularly wrong with this, but the timing is certainly totally plausible for a scumbuddy – when his buddy started to get into trouble, he gave himself the option of bussing if necessary; when things looked a little worse, he voted for him.

I think this guy is likely scum. He's been trying to keep a low profile, except when his partner needed bussing. His posts pretty consistently give me a strong vibe of "why would you bother posting that as town?".

vote: MM

I've got a few more people to look over in detail before I'm caught up.

[Fishythefish]

@Brandi: I remember playing with you, but can't put my finger on the game. Can you remember? There's some stuff I'd like to take a look at.

[InflatablePie]

Glad to see that Fish is contributing more than Kit was. Al, has your view on Fishy changed at all?

Maybe it's just me, but it feels activity has dropped. I know I said I'd write up a case on FG, but I have been both busy and lazy </nothelping>.

[InflatablePie]

EBWOP: your view on that slot (now occupied by Fishy)

[Brandi]

@Brandi: I remember playing with you, but can't put my finger on the game. Can you remember? There's some stuff I'd like to take a look at.

was it the pokemon game? I honestly don't remember =S

[Jarti]

1. Speaking of dramonic, if you think I am scum, then you believe that I bussed (very hard) for dramonic, then? Is this correct?

2. At least Jarti has some reasoning behind his vote, even if I think he's wrong.

1. Yes, perfectly plausible hard-bussing (or any type of bussing) a slot that is a goon & not participating to gain town cred later on.
2. Shouldn't you

know

I'm wrong if you're town, not just 'think' I'm wrong about you being scum?

I like what Fishy pointed out about the neighbour vs. mason and will not consider FakeGod to be clear anymore. However I still believe him to be town and will not support that lynch today.

FakeGod you've dropped off the radar as late and you avoided the question I asked you.

@mod: Your last vote count was wrong; my vote is on InflatablePie & Brandi's vote is on InflatablePie & bv's vote is on FakeGod.

[FakeGod]

"Who do you think needs to better explain their reasoning?" -Jarti

You, Pom, and Pie. Go answer Charter on why you guys voted him.

[AlmasterGM]

charter hasn't posted since Monday.

Die.

Unvote. Vote: charter

He is way better than this. Also, at the core, his defense is the same as dramonics was for lurking. "Hey guyz ignore me and look over there, those people did the same thing." The logical strings of it might have been fine, but they didn't wow me either. Finally, his scumhunting feels gut forced.

[AlmasterGM]

And I sort of agree with Fishy about MM ... he does fencesit a LOT. Half of his "scumhunting" is actually just him saying he has a nulltell.

[Jarti]

"Who do you think needs to better explain their reasoning?" -Jarti

You, Pom, and Pie. Go answer Charter on why you guys voted him.

ISO me. Tell me why the explanation I gave is not satisfactory. ISO Pom. Tell me why the explanation Pom gave is not satisfactory. ISO Pie. Tell me why the explanation Pie gave is not satisfactory.

(Spoiler: you should only find one of those to be non-satisfactory.)

[MaxMouse]

Mod: Need to extent my V/LA one more day. My class is ALMOST over, lot of work, apologies.

I have about a minute as I'm stuck working on this stupid course and I'm really tired.
To address what was said above:

Yes, I fencesit. I have a really big problem with early game play and I'm completely aware that I do. I feel like many of the things people shove in your face as "convincing evidence" in the first two days tends to be nulltells. Granted it might be better than nothing, but when two people have only some pretty vague nulltells, I dont know what to say.

Since I'd rather go for Charter than FG, let me ask you this GM:
What do you mean by he's better than this? I'm not in love with meta but I'd like to know what you mean.
I agree that his hunting has felt a bit forced.

Tomorrow (when I get home and finished with my class) I'd like to ISO FG and Charter's cases, I'd like to see what I find there, maybe clarify something to a better extent then a nulltell.

I need to go to bed. G'night.

[InflatablePie]

2. Shouldn't you know I'm wrong if you're town, not just 'think' I'm wrong about you being scum?

You're nitpicking at this point, you know.

Also:

unvote, vote: charter

For now, although a Kit lynch would be a swell idea. I'll jump back there if I get more support since my gut is leaning more towards Kit. Logic > Gut though and Pom makes a very good case, so I'll switch.

They're both great options though.

charter, I voted you because I thought Pom had a good case on you, however FG became scummier + you defended yourself against said case, so I switched off.

I'm going to go out on another crazy limb here, but I think Jarti is referring to me in his "spoiler"? If so, how is this not satisfactory? I agreed with Pom and the points she made, however placed my vote where I felt it belonged better PLUS charter defended his actions, as well.

I also suppose that, despite FG not being clear to you anymore, you think he's town not only because of his claim, but for the fact that I, one of your scumreads is voting him. Is this partially correct? Just wanting to clear things up.

[charter]

I'll be able to post tonight, haven't been on MS much lately.

[Fishythefish]

@MM: could you please link me all of your completed games (if you have any)?

I'll be expanding on my MM case soon, and probably giving another scumread or two. I've got a few pretty strong townreads, which I don't intend to reveal.

[MaxMouse]

Stepping out the door so I'll make this quick.

I do not have any here. Although I'll respond to your questions if you have any when I get home.

[AlmasterGM]

What do you mean by he's better than this? I'm not in love with meta but I'd like to know what you mean.

He's normally very good. Except not in this game.

I'll be able to post tonight, haven't been on MS much lately.

Mherrrr...this could actually be true, post history says he isn't in any games since this one and hasn't posted anywhere since Monday.

STILL THOUGH, the whole "I'll not post for 5 days, but then suddenly check the thread 5 hours after my name is mentioned and promise a post" sounds an AWFUL LOT like a little scummy bird from yesterday.

Also, EVERYONE should answer charter's question before he gets back so that he can't just be like, "guyz answer my question, everyone who didn't is scummy, kthx cya in a week."

[Pomegranate]

"Who do you think needs to better explain their reasoning?" -Jarti

You, Pom, and Pie. Go answer Charter on why you guys voted him.

If post #320 is not enough, I'm not sure what is.

[Fishythefish]

IPie

I think IPie might well be scum who is having trouble letting go of an easy mislynch. It would be reasonable for IPie to find FG scummy, but since Jarti’s finding Chrono’s breadcrumb, I feel he’s been rather desperate:
1. Discrediting what I think is fairly clearly a breadcrumb of some sort (“Unless he’s a Steve” is an unnatural phrase to put in a post otherwise). He says a nameclaim shouldn’t save FG; but he doesn’t really explain that point of view. Sounds like a line he thought sounded good, rather than a considered opinion on the evidence.
2. Linking Jarti with FG.
3. The argument that Jarti is attacking IPie for making connections, while he himself is doing so. The two situations are totally incomparable for obvious reasons, and linking them like this is empty rhetoric.

On MM: I dislike his fencesitting, and calling everything a nulltell. Also, I feel that this is rather odd:

MaxMouse, there's plenty of stuff you can talk about without having a replacement here, there's still like ten other players. Do you think FakeGod is scum? What about Pom? You still going on about Chronopie or what?

FakeGod is null to me, talks a lot but hasn't really led me anywhere which may or may not be a nulltell. Pom has played this way before IIRC , and I'm not that surprised so I'm not going to flip the "scum" switch on her anytime soon.

I still think Chronopie tried to very terribly cover up an OMGUS with some really thin reasoning. Its a vote based on the only thing I see that's not a complete nulltell.

@MM: You may have difficulty getting reads on day 1, but here you seemed to have a scumread on Chrono. You thought everyone else was voting on nulltells, more or less, and you had a real tell - Chrono was doing something "very terrible" with "really thin reasoning". It seems strange that you would really just sit back and not do anything about it.

I also feel your part in the dramonic lynch doesn't fit well in your play (or indeed your early game play generally, from what you say). Which makes me think you were bussing dram.

Having said that, I rather like MM's response.

[charter]

This is in no order.

Alright, I still think Brandi is scum. I still have no clue why EVERYONE is COMPLETELY ignoring her and giving her a free pass. I notice that MaxMouse gets called out for fencesitting or whatever, but I feel like Brandi is an even better example of that.

I like Fishy's entrance, drawing attention to Maxmouse I see as very protown, since there's the easy targets of myself and FakeGod, and I know I'm town, and I think he is as well, but he doesn't go after us. Fishy's points about MaxMouse are pretty good, especially the one about MaxMouse bussing Dramonic.

I think Jarti's vote for Pie is pretty OMGUSy and Brandi's is scummy. I don't think starting up a wagon on Pie is smart for her if she's scum, but at that point I don't really see any good move for her as scum to make, the only wagons were ones she had already denounced, so I guess she had to do something. Voting Pie was as good as any.

Who do you think needs to better explain their reasoning?
Same goes to charter.

When I said that, FakeGod and Pie.

Pom hasn't responded to my response to her case, so still waiting on that, if it's coming.

Pom has scooted up to my number two pick for scum right now due to a combination of post 474 which is pretty contradictory and her general response to FakeGod's claim, which was full of testing the waters and introducing doubt.

@Everyone, what is your read of Brandi? "I don't have one" is not an acceptable answer.

[FakeGod]

"Who do you think needs to better explain their reasoning?" -Jarti

You, Pom, and Pie. Go answer Charter on why you guys voted him.

ISO me. Tell me why the explanation I gave is not satisfactory. ISO Pom. Tell me why the explanation Pom gave is not satisfactory. ISO Pie. Tell me why the explanation Pie gave is not satisfactory.

(Spoiler: you should only find one of those to be non-satisfactory.)

For my response, I have analyzed the reasoning behind Jarti, Pom, and Pie's Charter vote.

ISO Jarti:

13: Comes in, votes Charter, asks him who's the play is.
16: Restates that he believes Charter is scum.
17: Asks whether Kit wants to see his Charter reasoning
18: Replies that his reasoning has something to do with his being able to follow Charter's thought process or not; once charter tells him who he thinks the play for today is, he'll outline it in more detail.
19: Asks Charter who's the play is.
24: Outlines why he suspects Charter.

Jarti's case:

Those are reasons that scum would bus. Yesterday, I was saying that I thought Dramonic was suspicious, but I was more suspicious of those voting him. I hadn't made any links between people, so I basically had a list of suspicious people, and Dramonic wasn't at the top of the list. I wasn't didn't have enough evidence to suggest that Dramonic and FakeGod were buddies. I'm not sure if you get what I'm saying, but basically I found some people suspicious, but for independent reasons.

Something else that I think everyone voting me is just plain ignoring, is what if I was voting for scum myself? You can argue that even so, it was useless because no one else was voting with me, but no one is saying that. I'm just being condemned for not voting a confirmed scum. I can see where that makes me suspicious, but it shouldn't be enough to lynch me over, especially since I don't see anyone saying or thinking that FakeGod is town.

See, that disconnect in thinking was why I started off toDay voting you. You had dramonic as one of your suspicions, but wouldn't throw your support towards lynching one of your suspicions because other people you were suspicious of also voted him. You yourself list reasons why scum could possibly bus dramonic, but don't take that into account for the dramonic wagon. If that were the case, it'd be hard for you to ever be on a lynch if you avoided all lynches with people you suspected on them, especially if scum voted each other. I think it's meh reasoning for avoiding a wagon. The reason I'm really grilling you for this is because your suspicions throughout the game have mirrored mine to a degree (originally I had Pom & Max as my early suspects, you hounded on them later on for reasoning I could follow easily, etc....). So when I saw the disconnect in your dram reasoning & that just so happens to be the player who flips scum, it makes you suspect to me.

ISO Pom:

35: Thinks Charter's scum. Votes him. Agrees with FakeGod.
39: Her case on Charter, involving ISO with responses/analysis done on most things Charter have said in the game.

Pom's case:

Stuff on charter

-

ISO 7

Also suspicious of Pom, I think twice now she's questioned 'wagons' but for no reason other than it's a wagon. She's not doing the town questioning of it, but the scum kind.

I don't like the way charter misrepresents me; I explained myself both times. And I don't have anything against wagons that have reasoning I agree with backing them up.

ISO 8

Also suspicious of Pom, I think twice now she's questioned 'wagons' but for no reason other than it's a wagon. She's not doing the town questioning of it, but the scum kind.

It would please me greatly if you elaborated on this. I just want to know how you define scum and town questioning in order for me to understand your suspicion.

Re: Beloved's wagon, she said she didn't like the wagon. Didn't elaborate or question the votes she didn't like (

unless mine was the only one she had an issue with

). I actually asked her to elaborate, but instead of answering my questions, she tried to spin an attack on to me.
Re: Alamaster's wagon,

it's not as bad when I reread it, but she says she understands the dramonic wagon, but doesn't think he's scummy. It's pretty much playing both sides but not committing one way or the other.

She's free to change her mind later once the direction the wind is blowing gets established.

If she were town, and legitimately thought either of these wagons was poor, I would expect her to explain why she thought they are poor, and question those voting. What Pom did was be very vague and kind of test out the waters.

She also just laid down a lurker vote on Bv, but didn't mention our other lurker, Beloved. A lurker vote at this time is a pretty safe thing to do if you're scum. No one is going to question voting for a lurker, because lurking should be punished, but at the same time,

she isn't asking Bv any questions or giving him any reason to post. She's just keeping her nose clean.

I see this was in response to Alamaster asking her who she's suspicious of, and she comes back with the lurker vote and nothing else.

Regarding the blue: Your vote

was

the only vote on the wagon I had a problem with. I explained myself many times. Why did you keep bringing this up?
Regarding the red: I had explained myself, and after this I recall explaining myself again. Again, there's no reason to bring something up again that's already been explained, and you admit that "it's not as bad when I (you) reread it."
Regarding the green: What questions should I ask him, if he hasn't done anything? It was a pressure vote, pure pressure. The point is for the lurker to see that there's a vote on him to get him to post, not to ask him questions.

Pom, what do you think of Kitoari? Scummy, townish, null, other?
Kitoari, what do you think of Pom? Scummy, townish, null, other?

I don't like the way you ask question to make it appear that you're scumhunting, but never follow up on them in any way.

ISO 10

Pom starting this wagon is bad, but these people getting on it are even more opportunistic.

Agree with this completely.

What, you demand multiple explanations for every move I make, but only explain that me starting a wagon as 'bad'? What is 'bad' about it?

Right now, Pom is screaming scum to me, but last time that happened, she was town, so I'm sticking with Kitoari for now.

Okay, so this confused me. Because if you think someone is really scummy, why don't you vote that person? Later in ISO 14 you say that "they're (meta arguments) useful, though not iron clad." If that's the case, why do you not vote your top suspect for because of some meta, that seems flimsy-

This is you: Last time Pom seemed scummy, she was town! So now I'll vote Kitoari! Even though meta (on her) isn't that important!

ISO 14

I had forgotten MaxMouse was in this game until his post, so I looked at his other posts. I'm not sure if he or Kitoari is the bigger active lurker. But it appears Kitoari has flaked, so..

unvote, vote MaxMouse

MaxMouse, there's plenty of stuff you can talk about without having a replacement here, there's still like ten other players. Do you think FakeGod is scum? What about Pom? You still going on about Chronopie or what?

Why do ask of MM thinks that FG is scum, if you yourself have not given an opinion on FG?

ISO 16

I don't see how talking often correlates to helping the town. As far as I know, scum are free to post as much as they want, doesn't mean it's helpful to the town.

You post often, but a lot of them aren't remotely helpful to the town.

And, to debate your reasoning just for the hell of it, MaxMouse has 14 posts in 8 pages, and discounting mod posts and all that, comes out to pretty much 1/12th of the posts.

And you, charter, post infrequently, and when I do the math (subtracting mod posts), you have definitely posted fewer than 1/12 of the posts in this game- 21 posts in 301 player post, after subtracting RBT's posts. And four of you posts (specifically, ISO posts 6,9,17, and 21) have been things like 'I've been prodded' and "I'll catch up tonight."

ISO 18 & 19

Not opposed to the dram wagon, only thing worrying me is that everyone I'm suspicious of is voting dramonic (though he's given good reason for people to vote him).

2) This sounds kinda fencesitting-ish or possibly buddy-distancing? Or I'm crazy. FoS charter.

I'm saying I think the case against dramonic is a good one, but I don't like how all the people I'm suspicious of made easy wagon votes on him. His wagon looks scum fueled to me, hence why I'm not voting him.

So you're "not opposed to the dram wagon", BUT you're suspicious of everyone voting him. Even worse, you think think "the case against dramonic is a good one" but everyone "made easy wagon votes on him". And you never explain what you don't like about the dram wagon, or even give a clear opinion on the leading wagon of the day at all. You contradict yourself and don't make sense. And the way you go against the dram wagon (while not being "opposed to it"), and then dram flipping scum... very, very scummy in my eyes.

VOTE: charter.

ISO Pie:

17~19: builds a case on Kit/Fishy
20: Votes Charter, though he still likes Kit/Fishy lynch.

No reasoning provided behind Charter vote.

Pie stands out as the only one among who have voted Charter who didn't explicitly explain/provide original analysis and/or reasoning behind his vote.

[InflatablePie]

@charter: Brandi is a bit lurky and asks a lot of questions that she doesn't follow up on. But it goes along with her actions in the last game I played with her (where she was town). So, I'm getting a town read on her at the moment.

Consider me V/LA till Monday. Working double shifts tomorrow and Sunday, probably won't have time to post.

[charter]

@charter: Brandi is a bit lurky and asks a lot of questions that she doesn't follow up on. But it goes along with her actions in the last game I played with her (where she was town). So, I'm getting a town read on her at the moment.

I'm sorry, but that's the dumbest reason to clear someone I've ever heard of. What's to stop her from doing that as scum, where it's much more beneficial than when she's town.

[FakeGod]

@charter: Brandi is a bit lurky and asks a lot of questions that she doesn't follow up on. But it goes along with her actions in the last game I played with her (where she was town). So, I'm getting a town read on her at the moment.

Wait a second, you said you don't use meta!