Mafia 1010 - Perpetual MyLo - Game Over

[destructor]

TRIPLE POST

Oh, and Magma's on the list for voting SD over theory.

[destructor]

Shit, sorry, QUADRUPLE POST.

Everyone on my list voted SD, including Lowell and KoZ/mole. Lowell got bonus points for his vote and general lurking, which I admit I've seen him do as town as well. But I'm a fan of lynching lurkers. Looking forward to hearing from mole.

Basically, I think we'll definitely find scum on the SD wagon.

[Exilon]

Don't get into "NO U" natured arguments, please. Magna's question simply didn't really work out to his point. Reck's initial theory-based response served to prove whatever NPIAU was saying wrong. So when you ask, "how do you know Shadow Dance is town, etc*" that question doesn't work because it wasn't Reck who said he "thought" that SD is town, and therefore.

NPIAU says he thinks SD is town and Reck is being "scummy" for being the first on a

town wagon

;
Reck argues that that logic is flawed due to the fact that position of people on a townie's wagon is a null tell;
Magna asks how does Reck know SD is town so as to make Reck's position null.

It is in a way strawmanning, as the argument being discussed isn't that one. Reck is not arguing that SD is town, he's arguing NPIAU's point.

Can we finish this now?

---

@SD:

Sorry for kinda ignoring you. I can get what you say to a certain extent, although I have some doubts as to if it really answer my comment. Still, please answer the rest of the post, if you would. It bothers me when people leave some of my most important comments untouched. I can post the quotes on what I really want you to comment on, if you'd like.

@Lowell:

People aren't going to unvote unless you get something productive, so you might as well start 'thinking' right away. kthxbai

[Exilon]

PS: Destructor: You don't think my 'hate' for 'SD' was justified?

[nopointinactingup]

So for Reck sounds genuine. I will consider backing my suspicion off him and look at the big picture. Now what I see is half of the players lurking/actively lurking ( one of the best ways for scum to handle games like this because a good strategy for town is to find connections between players ). I encourage all towns who read to speak up and speak a lot because I'm giving town credit to those who do right now.

@Reck: How do you find KoZ piggybacking your vote behavior?

NPIAU(/nopoint; what should we call you?) forgot to address something which I found important.

No, I'm being serious. I have no fucking clue what you're trying to say in that post. That second bit of the sentence is such a jumble of words and fragments that it's difficult to work out in my head, but I'll try to respond:

How exactly did Knight and I attack his OMGUS and what do you mean 'his main argument to bandwagon'?

I already explained it. Reck and KoZ didn't focus on SD's argument on game mechanics, but instead chose to vote SD over an OGMUS.

Your OMGUS votes are not really well justified. I can see so for Reck, but you voted me for disagreeing with you and believing that that strategy was scum faking a genuine attempt at helping town. Also you misread me, called me stupid, and didn't even bother to comment on my post which answered to you, simply changing your vote to Reck in a contentless post, which effectively does not make any mention to the reason you advocated as being the one for the OMGUS vote.

So, wanna keep burying yourself, or...?

Exilon, though he chose a wrong approach of accusing you, his intentions are nevertheless genuine. SD was speculating and would natural retaliate those who oppose his view ( and with what other than a vote ). Don't let your emotion get in the way and try to keep an open mind. The only reason I'm trying to persuade you to take a less severe stance on SD is that town tunneling town in this sort of game (where mafia has close to majority) is inherently self-destructing.

What I said that this town - every one, including me - desperately needs to stop to be a bunch of pissed of jerks blindly savaging each other. That will just cause town to turn against itself and give mafia an easy vitory.

I don't like this at all. so far I haven't seen people acting more distrustfully than what is usually seen on normal games, so why are you trying to make this look like 'chaos'?

The lack of objecticity in the attacks against me only allow three conclusions:
1.) The attackers where VIs who did not understand what I was trying to explain.
2.) The attackers where scum, trying to inhibit strategy debates, because a disoriented town helps scum (it is reasonable to assume that at least some of ther attacks had this motivation, could be associated with 1.), of course).
3.) The attackers where just over the top paranoid, thus not able to react rationally, like making their own calculations, actually trying to prove me wrong or to improve my strategy.

I don't think it's either of those. It could just be a town who has a different view from you. Apart from KoZ and maybe Reck and Magma ( Magma tends to active whatsoever alignment), I'm leaning towards town on most people contributing so far.

And the Lowell wagon I don't oppose to it. I don't oppose to any of the Moles/Lowell/Thief/Quoi wagon actually. I'd like to see more from them.

Unvote.Vote:Lowell

[molestargazer]

Right, then.

From the first few pages:

SCUM:

nopointinactingup, Shadow Dancer

The fact that SD continues to stick to his guns about LyLo > MyLo confuses me. Shame, if you hadn't, I would've been a lot more certain we'd pegged scum there. He is, however, being aggressive in his defence, which I dislike.
nopointwithalongname is scum for this post - it's either not thought through about LyLo/MyLo, or it's a blatant defence of a scumbuddy and a strategy which will scum a clear advantage. And his whole 'townie' first post gets on my nerves.

What do you guys think of a day 1 mass-roleclaim?

...

• Since we can only afford to No Lynch once, we should ALWAYS aim to lynch.
• We should ONLY consider No Lynching if we have mislynched twice and REALLY want another day to discuss the next lynch.
• Not doing the above significantly increases the chances of a loss due to a deadline.

1. Agreed.
2. I suppose so. It's a real last-ditch thing, though.
3. Yes.

Maybe we should intriduce a second deadline 48 hours befor the real one, after that town should only vote for the agreed on lynchee, no one else. Problem could be players being V/LA over the DL... Maybe we should also rather FoS than vote before the first deadline to make sure that mafia cannot quicklynch.

Completely terrible ideas, and completely counter-productive.
1. "Oops, sorry, I thought <x> was the agreed lynchee."
"No, it was <y>."
"What, but loads of us agreed on <x>."
"No we didn't dumbass".... etc.

2. FoSing has no pressure at all. Pressure on people is good.

Thief, you are now the scummiest person in the game. What do you have to say?

Says someone who's contributed about as much as Thief has.

I'm not a huge fan of DavidParker, since the whole cop claim thing, and this post seems like sheeping to me.

I honestly think this antmosphere of excessive distrust, as understandable as it is in a vanilla MyLo, only serves mafia.

Sure, let's start trusting everyone - oh, wait! They might be scum and not acting in our best interests! OHSHIT!

Bandwagon isn't a scum tell so why act all paranoid when someone tries to bandwagon you?

Well, people tend not to like death. Just sayin'.

Hmm .. It's more English than any of your posts have ever been. I'm guessing you are drunk again. And drunks don't understand English pity on you

Aggression? What are you, Shadow Dancer #2?

theorising, neither of which I see as reason to believe he is scum

If we carried out his idea, it would help scum. That's how I see it, anyway.

OMGUS to me is something only a townie can do - "Omg i'm town and you're voting me so you must be scum!"

... Seriously?

Take for example the argument that scum could "much more easily win LyLo by blockvoting" - it's obviously not that simple if scum don't want to hand themselves over oj a silver plate.

No.
1. If a townie is lynched, we don't know that everyone on that wagon is scum. Scum could quite happily do it at least once and we would have no idea.
2. Do we

really

want to take that much of a risk when we can't afford to be wrong very often? Do you really want scum to only have to persuade ONE townie in a final-day scenario?

Lowell reads as typical Lowell to me so far. Whether it's town or scum motivated, I have no idea, but I think we can persue better targets today.

I find it curious how SD and nopoint have backed off RECK in the past few pages.
I don't like the Lowell bandwagon.

Unvote

(If necessary)

Vote: Shadow Dancer

I can change to nopoint if that's a preferable lynch.
I'm not going to lynch Lowell yet. I may join a DavidParker wagon.
Apologies for any errors in this, it's not been particularly well proofed.

[nopointinactingup]

Right, then.

From the first few pages:

SCUM:

nopointinactingup, Shadow Dancer

Whoa, suddenly someone calls you out and you're like all on that person huh?

The fact that SD continues to stick to his guns about LyLo > MyLo confuses me. Shame, if you hadn't, I would've been a lot more certain we'd pegged scum there. He is, however, being aggressive in his defence, which I dislike.

You sure sound agressive in your defense.

nopointwithalongname is scum for this post - it's either not thought through about LyLo/MyLo, or it's a blatant defence of a scumbuddy and a strategy which will scum a clear advantage. And his whole 'townie' first post gets on my nerves.

If you read it carefully, it's obviously not about the LYLO/MYLO ordeal. And it makes sense, even Reck agrees to it to some extents so why are you the only odd one out who doesn't find it reasonable? Also, are you so out of things to say as to mention my "townie" first posts as one of the reasons for suspecting me? You strongly accuse SD and me, yet your case is full of bs, scum mentality much?

Bandwagon isn't a scum tell so why act all paranoid when someone tries to bandwagon you?

Well, people tend not to like death. Just sayin'.

Especially scums.

Hmm .. It's more English than any of your posts have ever been. I'm guessing you are drunk again. And drunks don't understand English pity on you

Aggression? What are you, Shadow Dancer #2?

Again, contentless fluffs probably used to create a false sense of density to your case against me.

I find it curious how SD and nopoint have backed off RECK in the past few pages.
I don't like the Lowell bandwagon.

I'm not so curious as I've explained why I'm backing off Reck. Tunneling is hazardous in this types of game. I suspect KoZ ( your predecessor ) more for following Reck's vote on SD emphasizing on his flaw instead of point out his flaw.

[molestargazer]

Whoa, suddenly someone calls you out and you're like all on that person huh?

Someone's called me out?

You sure sound agressive in your defense.

I'm not defending, I'm scumhunting. It's something townies do.

even Reck agrees to it to some extents so why are you the only odd one out who doesn't find it reasonable?

Oh, well, reck agrees with it so it must be OK.
Can I not have an opinion?

Also, are you so out of things to say as to mention my "townie" first posts as one of the reasons for suspecting me?

There's a word for this kind of bad defence, but I'm not entirely sure what it is. Can someone help me out here? It's trying to ridicule my case without answering it...

Again, contentless fluffs probably used to create a false sense of density to your case against me.

I'm not saying the aggression makes you scummy, I'm just pointing it out. I dislike it.

I'm not so curious as I've explained why I'm backing off Reck.

I'll go back and take another look.

[molestargazer]

So for Reck sounds genuine. I will consider backing my suspicion off him and look at the big picture.

That's all I can find for you backing off Reck.
Can you please explain what about him you find genuine, preferably with post examples, which show why you think he's now no longer worthy of your vote? Considering on Page 6 you were saying he had "Unbelievably misleading evidence". What's changed?

[nopointinactingup]

Also, are you so out of things to say as to mention my "townie" first posts as one of the reasons for suspecting me?

There's a word for this kind of bad defence, but I'm not entirely sure what it is. Can someone help me out here? It's trying to ridicule my case without answering it...

Because you don't even have a case. Point out something noteworthy I haven't answered?

So for Reck sounds genuine. I will consider backing my suspicion off him and look at the big picture.

That's all I can find for you backing off Reck.
Can you please explain what about him you find genuine, preferably with post examples, which show why you think he's now no longer worthy of your vote? Considering on Page 6 you were saying he had "Unbelievably misleading evidence". What's changed?

Nothing changed. There is only spawn of a new possibility that Reck could very well be a town who just doesn't realize his flaws. Why do I think he's genuine, because at first he was misunderstanding my accusation and reacted in a manner typical of a townie who thinks he is wrongly accused (Post #38 and the drunk posts). And when I explained my accusation, he admits to it, point out the possibility of the existence of different viewpoints and began scum-hunting more (#132. #145). His thought process are coherent and his emotional reaction relatively town-like so I don't see the point of tunneling on him when scummier fishes like you are out in the open.

[molestargazer]

If you read it carefully, it's obviously not about the LYLO/MYLO ordeal.

- SD made a reasonable explanation for why Perpetual Lylo would give us more chance to win than Perpetual Mylo.

That sounds like the LYLO / MYLO ordeal to me. That's what I'm talking about.

[nopointinactingup]

I didn't suspect Reck because he disagreed with SD about the LYLO/MYLO ordeal, I suspected Reck because he tried to bandwagon SD with an invalid reason. Thus, my accusation is NOT about the LYLO/MYLO ordeal.

[Shadow Dancer]

@SD:

Sorry for kinda ignoring you. I can get what you say to a certain extent, although I have some doubts as to if it really answer my comment. Still, please answer the rest of the post, if you would. It bothers me when people leave some of my most important comments untouched. I can post the quotes on what I really want you to comment on, if you'd like.

Yeah, better you do that. I am not entirely sure what you're refering to right now.

[Shadow Dancer]

Oh, and I'm going to be on every lurker waggon during D1! I don't think that's the final answer to the question how to deal with lurkers, but it will definitely discourage scum to try and lurk their way through D1. When in doubt, and since going LyLo is now impossible thanks to Max' stupid rules 6&7, let's lyncha lurker!

[molestargazer]

I didn't suspect Reck because he disagreed with SD about the LYLO/MYLO ordeal, I suspected Reck because he tried to bandwagon SD with an invalid reason. Thus, my accusation is NOT about the LYLO/MYLO ordeal.

My point isn't about your attacking reck, it's about that quote in which you decided SD was town for that LYLO / MYLO theory, which I think is both incorrect and quite scummy. Even if it wasn't, deciding someone is town for that one thing indicates a connection between the two of you, indicating possible scum.

[molestargazer]

EBWOP: Why I say incorrect, I mean it wouldn't give us an advantage, for the reason already stated (probably lots of times) about making it easier for scum to achieve a mislynch.

[nopointinactingup]

I didn't say SD was town because of that. I'm inclined to believe SD is town because I'm inclined to believe at least 1 of Reck/you are scum.

@Reck: Wow, even more scum slip. From your action I can infer that you like bandwagoning. So why are you suddenly getting all overly defensive when a bandwagon is on you. I myself don't oppose to bandwagon, but the point of scumminess in your and Knight's vote on SD is you don't focus on his main argument to bandwagon but rather disgress on the minor coincidence that he is OGMUSing.

Thus I see your actions as clear attempt to be one of the first to be on a wagon to lynch a town. And that makes me think SD is town too

, Exilon is being taken advantage of and Knight being your partner.
@Magma: no power role so why not?

Since Knight is VLAing

Unvote:Vote:Reck

[Shadow Dancer]

2. Do we

really

want to take that much of a risk when we can't afford to be wrong very often? Do you really want scum to only have to persuade ONE townie in a final-day scenario?

Wrong point of view... Scum does not even need to convince a townie, scum has only to wait until at least two townies agree on a waggon and then be open enaugh in their position to quickly jump on it... However, that most likely already happened and we did not have a quick lynch so far... Doesn't that make you think?

[molestargazer]

At the time you made that post (this is your ISO1, for reference), you had not made that case against reck, but still labelled SD as town.
In the same post, you made the quote:

- SD made a reasonable explanation for why Perpetual Lylo would give us more chance to win than Perpetual Mylo.

It's quite obvious that you meant that he was town because of that.

It was not until the next day, or your ISO 2, that you made that post about the link with xRECKx. My point is still valid.

Wrong point of view... Scum does not even need to convince a townie, scum has only to wait until at least two townies agree on a waggon and then be open enaugh in their position to quickly jump on it... However, that most likely already happened and we did not have a quick lynch so far... Doesn't that make you think?

Fair point. However. It is now Day 1. Later in the game, I'm sure they'd be quite happy to make the risk.

[Shadow Dancer]

They'll definitely try it when it's real LyLo, i.e. when scum has two kills. Chances for town to win are really bad then, any way, but there are counter strategies, though I don't really know how good they might work... I think we should defer this discussion until we really need it...

[nopointinactingup]

At the time you made that post (this is your ISO1, for reference), you had not made that case against reck, but still labelled SD as town.
In the same post, you made the quote:

- SD made a reasonable explanation for why Perpetual Lylo would give us more chance to win than Perpetual Mylo.

It's quite obvious that you meant that he was town because of that.

It was not until the next day, or your ISO 2, that you made that post about the link with xRECKx. My point is still valid.

No it's not obvious because it's not what I implied. Stop implying things to get your way. "SD made a reasonable explanation for why Perpetual Lylo would give us more chance to win than Perpetual Mylo", doesn't mean I label him as town. I become inclined to believe him town because he was jumped on in an unreasonable way. All you've been doing is posting fluffs about me and arkwardly twisting my words to get your case out.

[molestargazer]

When you put he was town in the same post, with no other explanation, I think that's quite a reasonable assumption to make.

[MagnaofIllusion]

NPIAU says he thinks SD is town and Reck is being "scummy" for being the first on a town wagon;
Reck argues that that logic is flawed due to the fact that position of people on a townie's wagon is a null tell;
Magna asks how does Reck know SD is town so as to make Reck's position null.

It is in a way strawmanning, as the argument being discussed isn't that one. Reck is not arguing that SD is town, he's arguing NPIAU's point.

Can we finish this now?

1. Reck’s insistence that it’s a Null tell based on theory alone doesn’t refute NoPoint’s argument.
2. Why is Reck making an argument that is totally theory based as opposed to arguing that it’s not scummy because he’s wagoning Scum?

Because I was arguing from a theory standpoint. I wasn't arguing from the point of anyone being a townie/non-townie.

Why are you arguing from a theory standpoint when NoPoint was directly attacking your for ACTUAL events? Your argument isn’t scum-hunting just theory debate. As said above … why didn’t you argue that you were wagoning scum instead of Town?

Before it gets lost in the shuffle let’s examine this little exchange -

Now, the Lowell wagon I can support.

Lowell's too scummy to be scum.

What happens in the posts between 138 and 145 to precipitate this startling 180?

1. Another vote on Lowell.
2. Lowell posts fluff and begs to be unvoted so he can scum-hunt.

If voting Lowell was something he could support why didn’t he actually vote him? And why when Lowell gets another vote does he immediately chainsaw attack the voter (me) for voting the person whose wagon ‘he could support’? Self inconsistency = Reck gaining scum-points.

@Lowell

– Whenever you get around to ‘providing us some scum’ please answer the following question –

And why aren’t you FOSing Quoi or Thief who are just as quiet, if not more so, than those you mentioned.

@Quoi / Thief / Brianj / DP – Any of you who aren’t on V/LA better start posting stat.

Oh, and I'm going to be on every lurker waggon during D1! I don't think that's the final answer to the question how to deal with lurkers, but it will definitely discourage scum to try and lurk their way through D1. When in doubt, and since going LyLo is now impossible thanks to Max' stupid rules 6&7, let's lyncha lurker!

So in an environment where we can only afford two mislynches you want to immediately use one to encourage active scum? What criteria are you going to use to assess which of our 5 big lurkers (Lowell, Quoi, Thief, BrianJ, DP) should be the lynch?

[xRECKONERx]

Someone explain to me the dissonance between this:

Nothing changed. There is only spawn of a new possibility that Reck could very well be a town who just doesn't realize his flaws.

and this:

I didn't say SD was town because of that. I'm inclined to believe SD is town because I'm inclined to believe at least 1 of Reck/you are scum.

This just screams fence-sitting.

Now, for Magna:

1. Reck’s insistence that it’s a Null tell based on theory alone doesn’t refute NoPoint’s argument.
2. Why is Reck making an argument that is totally theory based as opposed to arguing that it’s not scummy because he’s wagoning Scum?

1. It does refute his argument, because nopoint is implying that I'm attempting to look townie by getting on a wagon early, whereas I do not believe that is a scum or town tell, therefore I couldn't be trying to look townie by doing so.

2. Because the theory that propelled his case was flawed.

Why are you arguing from a theory standpoint when NoPoint was directly attacking your for ACTUAL events? Your argument isn’t scum-hunting just theory debate. As said above … why didn’t you argue that you were wagoning scum instead of Town?

As I said above - his attack on me was riddled with flawed logic/theory. The entirety of his attack boiled down to "Townies wagon early; therefore, you're scum trying to look townie by jumping on a wagon early" which has no logical ground.

What happens in the posts between 138 and 145 to precipitate this startling 180?

1. Another vote on Lowell.
2. Lowell posts fluff and begs to be unvoted so he can scum-hunt.

I knew I recognized Lowell from somewhere. It's this game, where I was a part of a two goon + traitor scumteam. Lowell was the traitor, but we kept him alive the whole game because he was so goddamn scummy. Of course, this was because we were actually ABLE to get reads on him, because he posted a decent amount of content. Here, he seems to be lackadaisically floating through the pages, which is directly contradictory to his scum meta.

[Lowell]

Caught up. Some thoughts:

20- reck suggests 'random lynching' [+, not terrible]
31- SD votes reck for being "sure" exilon is town [-, weak]
36- SD asks rules question [-]
41- destructor asks us to be "careful" b/c only two town are needed for mislynch [-, something offputting about this comment]
46- reck leads w/ 4 votes, SD has 3
50s- SD and reck show
64- magna moves from reck to shadow
69- nopoint joins reck wagon
88- more throwaway comments from SD [-]
100- lowell votes SD
105- magna unvotes SD
112- brian votes lowell for bandwagon hopping [-, two votes?]
116- david votes lowell [-, more parotting]
129- SD leads w/ 4 votes, lowell w/ 3
137- SD votes lowell
141- magna votes lowell [-, dodging SD]
154- nopoint votes lowell
155- mole votes SD

unvote, vote magna

fos SD

SD is a fine lynch, but probably not as good as magna. 64 looks a lot like protecting reck from lynch by jumping on the leading alternative (SD). Notably, when SD then got closer to lynch (my 100), magna immediately jumps off AGAIN and votes.... no one. When another wagon starts to rival SD (lowell), he jumps on that to push it as well.

Magna's entire history so far seems to point to someone who wants to avoid wagons when they get too big. If the reck/SD debate in the 50s was actually a lot of nothing between townies, then scummagna makes a lot of sense. He wants both wagons to take off (they're both active and have enemies) but neither to be stuck to him should lynch arise. Even SD-as-scum fits with this profile, as magna's transition from voting SD to unvoting to then voting the leading alternative makes sense.