Mini 1012: Mafia In Soraville (Game Over!)

[Haschel Cedricson]

Is that all?

[TheLonging]

Until you provide a better case on me or my brain comes up with more responses or until ortiz posts in here for once, then yes

[Haschel Cedricson]

Until you provide a better case on me or my brain comes up with more responses or until ortiz posts in here for once, then yes

Still in the process of rereading everything, but this sentence alone is almost enough to make me vote for TL right now. It heavily implies that he believes there are right reasons to call him scum.

Your nonacknowledgement of the above post has been duly noted.

[TheLonging]

OK, I didn't catch that. cause I went right to your case. So um, that's also a bad thing. You're calling me scum for all the wrong reasons is a sentence that implies "YOUR REASONING IS CRAP", and maybe if someone provided BETTER reasoning... you know, like pretty much none of the reasoning I'm getting here (I can name like, 1 or 2).

[ortiz1193]

Alright, finally here. I've been following the thread with reads, etc since the beginning since I knew I'd replace in, so these are pretty unbiased.

Some quick thoughts/reads/etc:

Jack - Can't read him, he's not being scummy imo, just not being too helpful... I haven't exactly looked in detail into his posts though to see if there's underlying content like DH said earlier
TL - I was thinking he was town, but some of the last few posts are making me think twice, I'll get to that (preview edit: I think he's town)
Twomz - My top scum candidate... why is there no pressure on him.
r2r - TOWN
Pie - I think he's town, I'll say more about it shortly
Fugi - Can't decide. I've had trouble reading him lately, it'll probably take some flips for me to get a strong read on him.
DH - Not getting enough thought as scum...
Espi - General town read
Friend - Neutral, he comes off with pro-townish posts but he was wagon hopping earlier and it reminded me exactly of me playing scum
HC - I was thinking lurker scum, his last post doesn't really do much to change my opinion, jumping on a popular wagon, etc.
Kov - I agreed with DH's case from however many pages ago but bigger fish to fry, etc. Lurking hard, and gets no attention. I'd probably vote him but I don't see every single scum member being lurkerscum and I picked Twomz for my lurkerscum instead.

-----------------

Twomz

He's been active lurking from the beginning of the game. His posts lack content, and all I've seen him do is pressure Jack for being anti-town, which seems like he's avoiding all the main wagons for either a) being on his scumbuddies or b) not wanting to be on a town lynch wagon. Lot's of game theory posts instead of content posts. Then there's this subtle appeal to Pie:

@ IP: I usually wait for conversations like this to finish before I comment on them. I'm a strong believer in 'do not answer questions posed at other people for them'.

I don't think anyone noticed this. Pie had just voted Twomz at the time of this post. About a page earlier Pie FoSed r2r for answering someone else's questions. Twomz is trying to appeal to Pie here... I don't know what you guys will think about that, but its telling to me. This is also a reason why I think Pie is town, because it seems like Twomz is trying too hard to please Pie here, and I don't think he would do that if they were scumbuddies.

Then he buddies Pie here a little bit later:

I like you InflatablePie, I think we're gonna get along just fine.

Buddying the only person to show suspicion on him, etc.

Just in general, read Twomz's posts, he's hardcore avoiding taking stances on anyone besides Jack, and the chances of Jack getting lynched today are slim.

Vote: Twomz

TheLonging

I was thinking he was town throughout the game, but these last few posts are making waiver a little:

You're calling me scum for all the wrong reasons.

I'm not really sure where this quote came from, I just see HC using it a few posts ago, but this is definitely scummy. I can't really explain it, but it has a "Yea I'm scum, I give up" feeling to it. I don't know how to verbalize it, hopefully you guys can see what I mean. I need to go back and look at this in context.

Second, I think people have let TL off the hook for his "DH is the Godfather" remark. It's unnecessary speculation on roles AND an act of subtle powerrole direction.

This really opened my mind to something. Say DH/TL is scum, TL might be trying to subtly stop an investigation of DH. I might be pushing it here though, but its an idea that immediately popped into my mind when I read that quote. Plus I can't stand role speculation anyway so that contributes to it.

Preview Edit: TL just posted... I just can't see him as scum.

DemonHybrid

I'm not digging for quotes on this one but I don't think anyone noticed this either.

During the r2r vs. DH thing, I swear r2r said something like "I'm not confident enough to do what Jack did" and then DH replied with "Townies shouldn't worry" or some kind of general response like that. And it was like DH was getting on to r2r for not fake claiming on day 1. >___>

DH's constant defending of Jack is noted.

Anyway, DH is pretty neutral in my mind at the moment. Don't know why everyone sees him as town.

-----------------

So yeah, any questions? r2r is town, Pie/TL are both prob-town, gogo Twomzwagon.

Sorry if everything is too clumped together, its hard to post 15 pages of reads at once and have it flow.

Cue fugi voting me in 3..2...1

[TheLonging]

oh hey someone knows what I'm actually talking about.

Since you just got here, I'll look at MvK's few posts to see what content they have compared to yours

[TheLonging]

TL, I know you have a bit of a temper/get a little carried away sometimes, but something about it this time seems... off.

That's closer to using meta than what DH did.

Not entirely. The remark on TL's temper is more from just generally talking to him in IRC, I believe.

@mVk: I dislike people who act like they have to get 1 joke vote in. It's anti-town.

Way to bring it up late, and screw up my precious capitalization in the process. Also, honestly, I've never seen it mentioned anywhere else as anti-town. I think I wound up consistently making day one joke votes because the first few games I ever player were full of them, so it feels normal.

Now then, I'm starting to grow a bit suspicious of DH. I find it absolutely bizarre that anyone would try to claim that they intentionally fell for a bandwagon. I know I've brought this up before, but it's really bothering me more that I thought it would.

That said though, I'm keeping my vote on TL for now. The massive role/setup speculation here and here is far beyond what anyone should be doing this early.

[DemonHybrid] also played with uh, Fugitive, MvK, and r2r, but you don't see him saying "I've played with them before", do you?

Let me address this now: DemonHybrid has never played a game with me. I have modded one game that he was in, however.

Now then, some general thoughts:
Pie bandwagon doesn't seem prudent at this juncture. The reasoning for it just seems thrown together.
"I wouldn't mind a policy lynch on X because of Y."
>OMG PUSHING POLICY LYNCH *VOTE*

I'm just not seeing the scumminess in it.

Jack's playstyle is frustratingly anti-town from what I'm seeing. I'm not going to go as far as to call it active lurking (as at least one of you did), it seems that he has a reason for the way he's posting, but I honestly don't know what it is. >_>

So yeah, overall:
Jack's play is frustrating, and looks anti-town, but I feel that it could be coming from a townie.
DH's claim to have intentionally fell for the bandwagon is silly.
TL's reactions and speculation suck.
Pie lynch doesn't feel warranted right now.
Fugi is being Fugi.
I don't really have anything to say about anyone else at the moment.

+1 town

I'll be damned if ortiz is scum

[TheLonging]

wow that was supposed to be the end of this post:

Vote: Friend

1) Player A claims mafia, setting a trap for someone to vote him.
2) Player B falls for it and votes Player A.

Anyone could see that's what Jack was doing. So technically, the one jumping on an easy target is, in fact, Friend: the person voting for Player B.

Let's think about this.

If anyone could see what Jack was doing, shouldn't DemonHybrid be considered scummy for voting Jack in the first place?

I don't know if DH is experience enough to recognize gambits and other such plays, so Jack would be

his

easy target.

+1 town

I figured DH would see how obvious Jack was being, so I didn't think of this. I see where you're coming from, but I think Friend is more opportunistic.

So, you're fine with DH voting Jack, but not fine with Friend voting for DH using the exact logic that you gave for voting Friend?

+2 town

I may be putting words into Pie's mouth, but that was certainly what MvK was implying, or else I misread him

Yes, I was directly implying that Pie was suspicious of one player but not another even though both did the same thing.

I don't think he was serious, but I don't think it was out-of-line for Friend to question him for it as if it were serious, either. The post in question was on page two, for frell's sake. Any question made to draw out a serious response is a good one that early even if it would come across as paranoid later in the game, imo.

I'm definitely of this opinion, as well.

Whether or not DH was serious in his vote on Jack, he could still be

either town or

scum. To be honest, claiming to intentionally fallen for the gambit just seems like a means to save face, more than anything else. Say what you will about scum jumping on easy targets, but if a townie thinks someone just scumslipped, they're an easy target

, and they're going to be voting for them. I don't see this as an entirely useful avenue of discussion at the moment, because it's far too easy to justify the actions we're seeing as coming from

either

side of the game.

+5 town

[Kov]

Vote:TheLonging

[TheLonging]

Vote:TheLonging

itt kov bandwagons without reasoning

Unvote

Vote: Kov

Never mind DH, Kov is the way to go.

[ortiz1193]

I'm not against lynching Kov at all right now. I would prefer a Twomz lynch first.

[Kov]

Vote:TheLonging

itt kov bandwagons without reasoning

Unvote

Vote: Kov

Never mind DH, Kov is the way to go.

OMGUS

[Haschel Cedricson]

OK, I didn't catch that. cause I went right to your case. So um, that's also a bad thing. You're calling me scum for all the wrong reasons is a sentence that implies "YOUR REASONING IS CRAP", and maybe if someone provided BETTER reasoning... you know, like pretty much none of the reasoning I'm getting here (I can name like, 1 or 2).

That's the thing, though; why would you WANT us to find better reasoning to find you scum? You should want us to find better reasoning to find OTHER people scum.

I've seen people say similar things in face-to-face Mafia, and they're invariably scum. That's not hyperbole; literally every person to say that has been scum. I've accidentally done it myself when I was about to get lynched for "talking more than usual" when I wasn't. Saying the case against you is "wrong"? Perfectly fine. Saying the town has "the wrong reasons"? Scummy.

[Haschel Cedricson]

EBWOP: Kov, that's not really OMGUS. You DID join a wagon without stating why.

[TheLonging]

OK, I didn't catch that. cause I went right to your case. So um, that's also a bad thing. You're calling me scum for all the wrong reasons is a sentence that implies "YOUR REASONING IS CRAP", and maybe if someone provided BETTER reasoning... you know, like pretty much none of the reasoning I'm getting here (I can name like, 1 or 2).

That's the thing, though; why would you WANT us to find better reasoning to find you scum? You should want us to find better reasoning to find OTHER people scum.

Because it actually shows people care about scumhunting, and it gives me a better case to refute to show why I'm not scum. For example, you're giving good reasons now, and I give good reasons to refute it, to show I am not scum. Following me or are you still not clear?

I've seen people say similar things in face-to-face Mafia, and they're invariably scum. That's not hyperbole; literally every person to say that has been scum. I've accidentally done it myself when I was about to get lynched for "talking more than usual" when I wasn't. Saying the case against you is "wrong"? Perfectly fine. Saying the town has "the wrong reasons"? Scummy.

Both of those actually imply the same thing first of all if you look for that when I say that, which is not what I mean. Also it is hyperbole, as I bet if you search every game where someone has done this, I bet you a few/a quarter will turn up to be town. Who knows? I'm also curious; besides your BW'ing + my "setup speculation" + me saying the quote above, is there ANY other reason that you can provide for me being scum? It's alright for you to parrot someone else in this case (preferably, provide original reasoning) but if you can't provide more reasoning, then your case on me, dear sir, is WRONG.

[TheLonging]

Vote:TheLonging

itt kov bandwagons without reasoning

Unvote

Vote: Kov

Never mind DH, Kov is the way to go.

OMGUS

Come back when you know what OMGUS means.

[Twomz]

I'm not against lynching Kov at all right now. I would prefer a Twomz lynch first.

I think you mean wagon. You need to have a wagon before you can have a lynch.

...
Some quick thoughts/reads/etc:
...
Twomz - My top scum candidate... why is there no pressure on him.
...

Twomz

He's been active lurking from the beginning of the game.

Yup, I even announced I was going to in an earlier post.

His posts lack content, and all I've seen him do is pressure Jack for being anti-town, which seems like he's avoiding all the main wagons for either a) being on his scumbuddies or b) not wanting to be on a town lynch wagon.

I don't agree with them. If I did I'd switch over. Right now I think Jack's behavior is the most antitown so far and I'm attempting to mirror him (this post excluded, how is it working?).

Lot's of game theory posts instead of content posts.

Par for the course Day 1 sadly .

Then there's this subtle appeal to Pie:

@ IP: I usually wait for conversations like this to finish before I comment on them. I'm a strong believer in 'do not answer questions posed at other people for them'.

I don't think anyone noticed this. Pie had just voted Twomz at the time of this post. About a page earlier Pie FoSed r2r for answering someone else's questions. Twomz is trying to appeal to Pie here... I don't know what you guys will think about that, but its telling to me. This is also a reason why I think Pie is town, because it seems like Twomz is trying too hard to please Pie here, and I don't think he would do that if they were scumbuddies.

I don't quite get what you're saying, I was answering a question posed to me and stating my opinion on answering other people's questions for them >.>

Then he buddies Pie here a little bit later:

I like you InflatablePie, I think we're gonna get along just fine.

Buddying the only person to show suspicion on him, etc.

His posted pretty much exactly what I was about to post... I didn't know agreeing with someone was scummy.

Just in general, read Twomz's posts, he's hardcore avoiding taking stances on anyone besides Jack, and the chances of Jack getting lynched today are slim.

Vote: Twomz

I've dug in on Jack because no one else has. I don't like the Pie wagon or the TL wagon, or any others really, again, if I did I'd switch over.

Back to lurking until Jack stops <3

[esuriospiritus]

Huh. I like ortiz's case on Twomz. He's lurking because Jack is, allegedly, but that certainly doesn't make it okay (for either of them). Twomz appears to be of the opinion that it's okay for him as long as he's admitting that he's lurking. ??

TL's defense wasn't particularly convincing to me, though. Vote stays where it is. :<

[Friend]

As much as I don't like Kov's play, TheLonging's response to his vote was hypocritically scummy:

Because a DH bandwagon will never take off again. I might as well join the bandwagon. If you insist though.

Unvote

Vote: DemonHybrid

I joined the BW because I thought it would be fun

When was BWing a scum tell? At this point, I've seen so many scum never BW, I'm ready to call not joining a lynch a scumtell.

unvote, vote: TheLonging

[TheLonging]

See I actually DID somewhat state reasons for the BWing. Kov didn't. Try harder please

[esuriospiritus]

Careful, I think that's L-2.

[Twomz]

Huh. I like ortiz's case on Twomz. He's lurking because Jack is, allegedly, but that certainly doesn't make it okay (for either of them). Twomz appears to be of the opinion that it's okay for him as long as he's admitting that he's lurking. ??

TL's defense wasn't particularly convincing to me, though. Vote stays where it is. :<

Nope, don't care if people attack me for it as long as they attack Jack for it as well.

[TheLonging]

Careful, I think that's L-2.

Yes it is

[ready2rock]

Huh. I like ortiz's case on Twomz. He's lurking because Jack is, allegedly, but that certainly doesn't make it okay (for either of them). Twomz appears to be of the opinion that it's okay for him as long as he's admitting that he's lurking. ??

TL's defense wasn't particularly convincing to me, though. Vote stays where it is. :<

Nope, don't care if people attack me for it as long as they attack Jack for it as well.

Jack is V/LA (I think he's actually V/LA this time).

[ortiz1193]

@ IP: I usually wait for conversations like this to finish before I comment on them. I'm a strong believer in 'do not answer questions posed at other people for them'.

I don't think anyone noticed this. Pie had just voted Twomz at the time of this post. About a page earlier Pie FoSed r2r for answering someone else's questions. Twomz is trying to appeal to Pie here... I don't know what you guys will think about that, but its telling to me. This is also a reason why I think Pie is town, because it seems like Twomz is trying too hard to please Pie here, and I don't think he would do that if they were scumbuddies.

I don't quite get what you're saying, I was answering a question posed to me and stating my opinion on answering other people's questions for them >.>

Have you ever seen on TV when a guy wants to impress a girl, so he fakes having a common interest with her? Same concept applies here. Less than a page before this quote, Pie had mentioned how answering other peoples' questions is scummy. It just seems too coincidental that you decided to use that same point to defend yourself when

Pie

was suspicious of you. I'll post the entire thing in context for everyone.

FoS: r2r for answering another player's questions.

About a page goes by.

And FoS: TL[ for answering my question back there. Stop that.

A few posts later...

Lawl wut? I'm not quite sure what's going on... I'm still waiting for Jack to respond. This isn't the first time I've seen someone do some sort of weird fakeclaim for whatever reason... but it seems silly to do it in the first place >.> oh well.

...seriously?



Well, I can't decide between DH and Friend. Friend is still seeming a bit odd, but DH is now saying he knew jack was being stupid the entire time (aka "nice cover!") and countervotes look a bit odd too.

hrm

I reject these two candidates and substitute my own! Vote: Twomz

No other thoughts?

@ IP: I usually wait for conversations like this to finish before I comment on them. I'm a strong believer in 'do not answer questions posed at other people for them'. That said... if Jack is just gonna pull V/LA after that, then I might have to read over what others have said and trying to figure out who is saying what (a little confused which side is which). Interesting first day though.

The first sentence was a perfectly fine defense. It goes perfectly with your post up there. The 2nd sentence is definite appealing to Pie imo. It doesn't flow with your post from earlier, and in context it seems unnecessary.

Sticking with my vote. There's still time to switch to a Twomzwagon guys!