Last Will Mafia II (Over)

[Ythan]

I suppose if faced with a lynch he knows to be a mislynch it would be the pro-town thing to do.

[Jahudo]

@Richard have you ever played as a vig or doctor before?

I still don't think Richard is a good lynch.

The point was that at the time dana had posted, I hadn't said the kill was fake yet, so dana's post made no sense at the time it was made.

oh ok.


@Chronopie: What about the Richard wagon made you decide scum were MOST LIKELY trying to save him and not thinking about distancing/bussing?

unvote

[Charlie]

What's the point of observing from the sidelines anymore? I'll spill my thoughts on the last 10 pages.

Quick recap: I think toothless and Xite91 are town, by inclusion, Ythan follows because inventor ---> Ythan (gun).
Ythan claimed the kill on Diacria N1 (I think). If this is true, then I call shenanigans on the lack of a Mafia kill N1. The first Last Will Mafia had 2 scum teams, there should be at least 3 deaths N1.

I cannot read Jahudo due to avatar bias. The red panda is distracting, and all his posts are diluted because of it. I'm not joking: this happened to me before in my second Newbie game here, long completed. It was squirrels that time.

SSBF's walls are typically pro-town, ever so slightly. Not much to say about his opinions as I have mixed feelings about them. The people he suspects are all fall under "good lynch candidates" i.e. neutral to slightly scummy reads. That said, I'd rather not bet on it.

On page 32, there was talk about lynching a claimed BP. That's a terrible idea. (Policy lynch, however, is a different matter. Both options are rather lousy IMHO) Vig would be okay, however due to certain reasons I believe this is difficult to accomplish. We're best going with Ythan's suggestion #800: leave millar13 alone.

Amished is town by gut. Strong town read for what it is worth.

Nachomamma8's case on EGL seems interesting and didn't receive the correct amount of attention it deserves. Post after post made it "lost in transition" and I'd really like to hear opinions of others about it. #818
Sometimes (actually most of the time), the reactions to the case mean more than the case itself. There is little to go by here.

ISO Charlie from this game me and Charlie were in. If you read it, you'll notice that he was far more pro-town in that game and contributed a lot more to the game. He also took stances and tried to look for suspects. Most importantly, he was town.

I fully intend to revert to a non-lazy status and this post shall justify it. Consider rebuilding your case on me around that or find other suspects.

@Charlie (#892): Your vote on raider8169 contains absolutely no explanation. He asked you a simple question and then you vote him for it. That's kind of sad...<snip>
I'd be much more comfortable if you actually gave us a mafia list as opposed to a town list. Now granted, I don't have a problem with town lists, but I highly prefer to see mafia lists instead, as mafia lists (With explanation) make your suspects known to us.

Do you think it is a scumtell?
That is hard for me to put out; I'm doing my best and you have my word for it.

Thats not evidence, thats attempting to formulate a reason based on how you expect the mod to design the setup around the theme, otherwords - outguessing the mod.

Bullcrap. That and the entire post is far-fetched.

After #915, SSBF is more town looking...by gut.

Jahudo (as much as it is hard to read his posts) - Kmd4390 interactions are very interesting (page 38). I feel that the tone of their posts changed. Strange, wish they could interact more so we can draw further conclusions. For now I don't know what to make of this finding.

About the CPR Doctor claim by RichardGHP...not really convinced. Would be willing to place my vote on him.

After all that...who's mafia? Good question. It seems that I have no suspects. By process of elimination, I suspect the more lurkish/less active players. (I'd suspect myself too by this reasoning. Odd how things work.)

Unvote
FoS: raider8169
FoS: chronopie
FoS: EGL
Fos: animorpherv1
Fos: holycon

[Ythan]

No I have not claimed any kills.

[Jahudo]

I cannot read Jahudo due to avatar bias. The red panda is distracting, and all his posts are diluted because of it. I'm not joking: this happened to me before in my second Newbie game here, long completed. It was squirrels that time.

Distracting as in too cute to lynch me? That's the intended effect

Jahudo (as much as it is hard to read his posts) - Kmd4390 interactions are very interesting (page 38). I feel that the tone of their posts changed. Strange, wish they could interact more so we can draw further conclusions. For now I don't know what to make of this finding.

Turns out I was wrong. Danakillsu had her vote on Shattered after KMD made the fake daykill but before he said it was fake. I got confused because it took Rhinox/KMD until after the gambit had ended for them to bring up that point. Which is understandable because dana was lurking pretty hard and never said anything after the fake-gambit was explained.

I still think Shattered was viable at the time KMD said he wasn't, but I guess that doesn't matter knowing Shattered was town and scum could have just plopped their vote on him whenever. So I can't find a scum motivation.

So I don't have any suspicions on KMD now. I'm leaning Chronopie for #1 suspect.

[Twomz]

42 pages of content and you finally put out a post with some content in it...

And you not only don't vote, but you FoS lurkers?

Can we just end this? There's no way a town player has no suspects besides lurkers with this much crap going on.

[Amished]

@Jahudo: Why the unvote with no revote?

Case time:
SSBF is scum for the following reasons:
First vote of the game: on Diacria while *stating* that it was for pressure. That eliminates all pressure given by voting; so he really just didn't want to get on a townies bad side. It's essentially a vote for Llama at that point for all the good it does. (ISO 4)

Then freaks out and gets hyper-defensive over ending the RVS when questioned by Shattered. The tone of this post is so reactionary I'm surprised I didn't see it sooner (ISO 5)

Continues to say nothing about the game (other than RVS theory) for 5 posts; and then FoS's SV instead of voting after such a weak vote on Diacria. (ISO 10)

Supports a policy lynch on millar; attacks Diacria for making a town list. It really looks like panicky scum seeing that Dia was mostly correct and going to lead against his scummates. (ISO 11)

One thing I just noticed: SSBF attacked Diacria for OMGUS in ISO 12-13; why didn't he do it to Richard lately with the "gambit"? (Hint, it's because they're both scum)

Despite all of the attacking of Diacria; he hops on raider essentially because there's a bandwagon being formed on raider. (ISO 15) He never even questions Raider to actually determine his alignment. Even when voting for Raider; most of his attention is focused on other people. Attacking people while having your vote somewhere else makes your vote fade into the background and not a focus of the town; ample scum motivation for that.

After the day starts; he's still pushing for a policy lynch on millar even though he's not said much about the claim or why (if millar is telling the truth) it's so bad to skip a day phase. (ISO 25)

(Also note the hypocrisy of calling out Diacria for her town list early on; yet providing one of his own and not attacking Magua for his town list either)

(ISO 29) He changes his stance on millar being a policy lynch after realizing that that was not going to take off. He also says that Charlie is the play for today; abandoning all of his own reads from earlier in the day. He also brings meta into it (*later*) by using a one-game, one-way meta (which proves absolutely nothing about Charlie's alignment)

After posting a laundry list of things that aren't really scumtells on Charlie; he continues to take away from "his" case that he essentially hopped on Magua and Jahudo's reasoning against Charlie by putting more attention on animorph. Pushing for someone that you're not (and never have; I don't count HoS's as doing anything) voting for is incredibly scummy. (Also note that he doesn't push CSL whom he *did* vote for in the same post that he HoS'd Animorph).

(ISO 40) Gets on Ythan for town-lists again; after the previous encounters with said lists.

(ISO 41) Asks for a prod on CSL (remember how he didn't push that before); he now says that not posting here is *potentially* scummy instead of it's a scumtell. He's even undermining his own pushes.

While still voting for Charlie; he sees Richard's ragequit post and calls it scummy (with emphasis, ISO 42. Hard to explain without you checking it). Still no vote for Richard though; what happened to Charlie-scum? No clue from his posting.

Also, he's taking credit for being the first to suspect Animorph; while never voting for him or really pushing a case against him. Yup, you're really doing what you say (sarcasm).

(ISO 45) Uses MafiaSSK's "meta" of ragequitting one game to apply to Richard's ragequit. Not only is it not a meta (it's one game), it's not even on the right person. Regardless, there's *still* no Richard vote.

Then after Richard's claim; SSBF wants to leave Richard alive for a day. This is so blatant it's not even funny anymore.

Lynch 'em both.

[Locke Lamora]

Charlie, tell me why Xite is town (no, I did not think the way she answers questions was a good reason, as you didn't explain that at all).

[Charlie]

So I don't have any suspicions on KMD now. I'm leaning Chronopie for #1 suspect.

Ah, noted.

42 pages of content and you finally put out a post with some content in it...

And you not only don't vote, but you FoS lurkers?

Can we just end this? There's no way a town player has no suspects besides lurkers with this much crap going on.

Oh my goodness, you are right! How silly of me.
VOTE: raider8169
Think about it, toothless. There is no way I could make that whole "42 pages without content" seem "good" for me. We do what we must because we can.

Charlie, tell me why Xite is town (no, I did not think the way she answers questions was a good reason, as you didn't explain that at all).

Hardcore interactions with others + suspects with reasonings = protown. Why do I need to convince you of my opinions when there is no danger of Xite91 being lynched at the moment?

[Rhinox]

I got confused because it took Rhinox/KMD until after the gambit had ended for them to bring up that point. Which is understandable because dana was lurking pretty hard and never said anything after the fake-gambit was explained.

That was the first thing I brought up when I replaced in. I was a bit surprised no one else thought to mention it.

:goodposting: here. I agree with just about everything Amished said.

Why Richard's claim is BS:

1)Millar claimed BP who can be killed at night without skipping a day.
2)Everyone in this thread wants to see millar vigged.
3)Richard thinks millar is scum.
4)Richard claimed a role that would have allowed him to kill millar, where no one would question his target or intentions, and basically prove his role and alignment.

Conclusion: Richard is lying about his role.

Unless Richard can reasonably explain to me why he did not use his role to kill millar or any of his other scum reads (in your next post please), I will vote to lynch him in my next post.

Amisihed summarized a case against SSBF quite nicely. I have been noticing things now and then (I have brought these up in thread) but I haven't been able to wrap everything up into 1 coherent case. I do agree that SSBF is scum, independent of Richard's alignment. I would support a SSBF lynch today.

Chrono hasn't done anything. 3 posts today. 1 did have an attempt at explaining something, but the logic was way off. Active lurking anti-prod post on saturday, said he'd be back tomorrow (sunday). Well, now its tuesday. Oh, by the way. He's already made 9 game posts in other games today. 2 game posts yesterday. 7 game posts on sunday. etc, etc. Basically, according to his profile, he averages 9.07 game posts per day. There is a reason he is ignoring this game. The reason is, he's scum.

Those are my top 3 picks for scum right now.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Glad to see Charlie finally doing something here. I'm actually looking forward to seeing him contribute more to the game. Due to his terribly scummy behavior, thought, I will still keep my vote on him.

CSL, Chronopie, and animorpherv1 still haven't done any convincing to me that they are town. Both exhibits very scummy behavior and any of those four I would be willing to lynch ToDay if a Charlie's lynch doesn't get through or if Charlie becomes less scummier then them.

---

Getting to Amished's case against me:

First vote of the game: on Diacria while *stating* that it was for pressure. That eliminates all pressure given by voting; so he really just didn't want to get on a townies bad side. It's essentially a vote for Llama at that point for all the good it does. (ISO 4)

Unless you were meaning first serious vote, my first vote (Despite being RVS) was on millar 13. Also, by voting Diacria, I was applying pressure. Saying that voting a person for pressure doesn't really make that much sense to me.

Then freaks out and gets hyper-defensive over ending the RVS when questioned by Shattered. The tone of this post is so reactionary I'm surprised I didn't see it sooner (ISO 5)

I think you're blowing this out of proportion here. I tried to get my point across in a succint and clam matter. I don't need to make ten paragraphs over one quote.

Continues to say nothing about the game (other than RVS theory) for 5 posts; and then FoS's SV instead of voting after such a weak vote on Diacria. (ISO 10)

Things I did where you called my posts nothingness until my FoS on Shattered Viewpoint:

- Got on Shattered Viewpoint for not answering Kmd4390's question.
- Argued with RichardGHP about posting restrictions.
- Briefly talked about Shattered Viewpoint's meta.

That proves that I said more then RVS theory in those five posts. As a matter of fact, the only post that was entirely about RVS theory was in ISO: 7.

As for the FoS on Shattered Viewpoint, that was because I found Diacria scummier then Shatttered Viewpoint at the time, so I'm not going to switch my vote to a person just because I expressed suspicion on them.

One thing I just noticed: SSBF attacked Diacria for OMGUS in ISO 12-13; why didn't he do it to Richard lately with the "gambit"? (Hint, it's because they're both scum)

Technically, I already did comment on RichardGHP's gambit by outright stating that I disliked his obvious OMGUS vote on Xite91, which contained no real reasons for it.

Despite all of the attacking of Diacria; he hops on raider essentially because there's a bandwagon being formed on raider. (ISO 15) He never even questions Raider to actually determine his alignment. Even when voting for Raider; most of his attention is focused on other people. Attacking people while having your vote somewhere else makes your vote fade into the background and not a focus of the town; ample scum motivation for that.

My reasons for voting raider8169 was not purely for bandwagoning sake. I already expressed dissatification on raider8169 in a few thing on the same post I voted him. Most of my reasons for voting raider8169 was said by different people, but that doesn't mean I didn't attempt to justify my reason for voting him.

After the day starts; he's still pushing for a policy lynch on millar even though he's not said much about the claim or why (if millar is telling the truth) it's so bad to skip a day phase. (ISO 25)

I will admit to pushing a policy lynch on millar13 (That has changed since then, as I forgot that vigging him was an option, plus I admitted that it made little sense), but notice that I did not vote millar13 throughout the entire game. That is because I am more worried about ridding the town of the scums then I am worried about lynching an anti-town person that is more then likely to flip town.

(Also note the hypocrisy of calling out Diacria for her town list early on; yet providing one of his own and not attacking Magua for his town list either)

Regarding the hypocrisy accustion, I called Diacria out for his town list because he did not provide a scum list with it either. I have made this argument before, scum lists are more important then town lists.

Now why did I believe that my town list was justified? Because of two reasons:
1. My town reads were already solidfied by the beginning of Day 2. Everyone that I mentioned were town is still town in my opinion.

2. I gave a scum list along with it as well. I am not just town hunting here.

(ISO 29) He changes his stance on millar being a policy lynch after realizing that that was not going to take off. He also says that Charlie is the play for today; abandoning all of his own reads from earlier in the day. He also brings meta into it (*later*) by using a one-game, one-way meta (which proves absolutely nothing about Charlie's alignment)

No, I changed my stance on policy lynch on millar13 becuase it was obvious that I am not going to push for a policy lynch on millar13 when I have bigger suspects to deal with.

You saying that I abandoned all reads for Charlie is a misrep. I still think that CSL should be lynched, I still think that RichardGHP should be lynched if he can't provide evidence of his claim, I still think that animorpherv1 should be lynched, and I still think that Chronopie should be lynched as well. I have attacked them all at least once in the game.

Also, about the meta, it probably because I have no knowledge of Charlie's scum meta. Given that he does not provide his history of games on his Wiki Page, I do not want to waste my time search the forum for his scum meta (If he has any).

After posting a laundry list of things that aren't really scumtells on Charlie; he continues to take away from "his" case that he essentially hopped on Magua and Jahudo's reasoning against Charlie by putting more attention on animorph. Pushing for someone that you're not (and never have; I don't count HoS's as doing anything) voting for is incredibly scummy. (Also note that he doesn't push CSL whom he *did* vote for in the same post that he HoS'd Animorph).

So these aren't scum tells?
- Viewing the thread, but saying he has nothing to post.
- Asking a useless question about razorback to holycon and failing to explain why he asked the question.
- Fails to explain why he was suspicious of raider8169 and votes Shattered Viewpoint as a policy lynch.
- Bandwagons CSL without explanation.

Just because you're voting for a top suspect doesn't mean you can't push for the lynch of your other suspects as well. Like for example. you are declaring that I am obvious scum and make a big case on me, yet you're voting for RichardGHP. You are pushing for both lynches. My top suspect (Charlie) is taking priority for now, but that should not prevent me from pushing the lynch of my four other suspects as well.

Also, I did and still am pushing for the lynch of CSL. I disliked his Day 1 play and he was my initial vote. Like I said before, he's done nothing to remedy my suspicion on him and put very little effort into the game. Even if it isn't nearly as prevailent as Charlie's, it is still there.

(ISO 40) Gets on Ythan for town-lists again; after the previous encounters with said lists.

I don't oppose to town lists as said before, but they are not more important then scum lists. Yes Town Lists can be used for PoE, but they also contain more risks. Scum lists from townies are usually accosiated with trying to elminate scums.

While still voting for Charlie; he sees Richard's ragequit post and calls it scummy (with emphasis, ISO 42. Hard to explain without you checking it). Still no vote for Richard though; what happened to Charlie-scum? No clue from his posting.

Just because RichardGHP raged quit doesn't mean I'm automatically going to switch my vote over. What if he didn't come back and got replaced by someone who wasn't RichardGHP? Would you still vote for him?

Also, he's taking credit for being the first to suspect Animorph; while never voting for him or really pushing a case against him. Yup, you're really doing what you say (sarcasm).

Suspecting a person =/= voting him. Also, I definently put up a case against him and I still retain heavy suspicion on him and has mentioned him a few times.

[LlamaFluff]

Magua prodded.
Quite a few others qualify to be prodded in 24 hours.

[Amished]

OMFG. OK Mastin.

Definitely don't have time to respond to all of that tonight.

[Pittbunny]

Glad to see Charlie finally doing something here. I'm actually looking forward to seeing him contribute more to the game. Due to his terribly scummy behavior, thought, I will still keep my vote on him.

CSL, Chronopie, and animorpherv1

(3)

still haven't done any convincing to me that they are town.

Both

exhibits very scummy behavior and any of those

four

I would be willing to lynch ToDay if a Charlie's lynch doesn't get through or if Charlie becomes less scummier then them.

...
Now I'm curious; just how much editing do you do to that post before you decided it was good enough to ship out? Did you feel that two suspects were too few? That you didn't have enough supportive ammo to accuse four? Were you too preoccupied with counterpointing Amished that you failed to realize that 2=/=3=/=4? I wonder. This isn't a freudian slip, but it implies a heavy degree of modification to what you're trying to deliver.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Now I'm curious; just how much editing do you do to that post before you decided it was good enough to ship out? Did you feel that two suspects were too few? That you didn't have enough supportive ammo to accuse four? Were you too preoccupied with counterpointing Amished that you failed to realize that 2=/=3=/=4? I wonder. This isn't a freudian slip, but it implies a heavy degree of modification to what you're trying to deliver.

That was an error in my part. By "both", I mean "all three". By "four", I actually mean three. One of your supposed answers is right, I was too preoccupied with my counterpointing on Amished so I kind of forgot to look that paragraph over.

[Kmd4390]

Ok, Charlie is now confirmed town.

Scum are:
Animorph
Amished
Pittbunny
Ythan
Twomz
Richard

Let's lynch one of them. I don't care which one.

[holycon]

Ok, Charlie is now confirmed town.

Scum are:
Animorph
Amished
Pittbunny
Ythan
Twomz
Richard

Let's lynch one of them. I don't care which one.

and how on earth is charlie confirmed town?

[Kmd4390]

Because there is no way in hell that he is scum.

[holycon]

i would like you to tell me why because there is no way he is "confirmed town"

[Kmd4390]

*Shrug*

It's one of my subtle tells that no one is going to buy, but heregoes I guess.

I cannot read Jahudo due to avatar bias. The red panda is distracting, and all his posts are diluted because of it. I'm not joking: this happened to me before in my second Newbie game here, long completed. It was squirrels that time.

This is just so out there that I believe it to be honest cuz let's face it. What scum is gonna be like "oh, I'm gonna say this even though it's not true" and then post something like this.

Going off of the assumption that this is an honest post, the fact that he says he can't read Jahudo means he was attempting to. So it's an honest scum hunting post. Charlie is town.

[Ythan]

That is an incredibly flimsy reason to call someone confirmed town.

[Nachomamma8]

*sigh*

Richard is bad wagon.
Charlie is bad wagon.
SSBF is okay wagon.
EGL IS GOOD WAGON.

@NM8: Say town attacks 3 players relatively consistently and evenly. How does scum know the rest of your town rankings? They don't and can't. Picking off high pro-town looking people just helps them and hurts the town.

If the town is attacking 3 players relatively consistantly and evenly, then scum kills the most vocal. They don't care about your town rankings because they are looking for those who are the biggest threats to them. They can't kill anyone who finds them town because of WIFOM and such, and it would also leave them defenseless when day rolls around...

@nm8: EGL isn't scum. Your case is nothing.

He isn't? And you know this... how?

[Charlie]

Reasons why RichardGHP should not be lynched Today:

1) He claimed CPR Doctor which is as good as a vig: Have his use his protect-kill on someone N2 and have him claim his action.
2) If he is telling the truth he can vig mafia or accidentally kill a townie; this works provided he isn't roleblocked. Therefore, nobody should mess with him N2.
3) If he is lying than we'll go from the kill(s).

I personally don't buy his claim, but it would be bad strategy to lynch him Today.

[Charlie]

Just realized that I contradicted myself in the last post and didn't pay attention to the Why Richard's claim is BS post by Rhinox. I'll get back to it later.

[Jahudo]

@Charlie: Who was the player in your second game that had a squirrel avatar? You are talking about Newbie 888 right?

Unless Richard can reasonably explain to me why he did not use his role to kill millar or any of his other scum reads (in your next post please), I will vote to lynch him in my next post.

Good point. I forgot about that part.

@Richard have you ever been a vig?