Open 236 - Pamplona Mafia (C9++) Game Over

[Ythan]

Hey.

[Ythan]

I'm looking over a lot of setup information before I look at the smaller pool of probably meaningless RVS information. Are you questioning why I'm not contributing to the noise?

[Ythan]

Al, provide a reason for your vote on me.

[Ythan]

Before anyone answers, does anyone disagree with asking everyone what their policy is on shooting N0 as a vig?

[Ythan]

I'm looking over a lot of setup information before I look at the smaller pool of probably meaningless RVS information. Are you questioning why I'm not contributing to the noise?

Well with your sole contribution to the game having been one word I was trying to get more content out of you.

Immediately after my first post? Has everyone even posted?

I don't think there is much to glean from the setup at this point, all we know is that we have VV or VVVV (and either way, we have at least 1 Vigilante).

Anyone with any role other than vig knows more than that.

Al, provide a reason for your vote on me.

I eenie meenie miney moed.

Doesn't match up.

Before anyone answers, does anyone disagree with asking everyone what their policy is on shooting N0 as a vig?

What if someone says they would shoot N0? That lowers the probability that they're a Vig and makes the Mafia's job of finding power roles easier.

Good point.

vote Alduskkel

[Ythan]

What debate is it that you feel I am ignoring?

[Ythan]

How is it intriguing?

[Ythan]

Insistent on not accompanying his vote with any kind of random vote stage flavor, yet then felt it necessary to question me regarding my brief entry post, despite the fact that some players had not even posted and in fact still have not. Inquisitive but not about anything useful; the same goes for his questioning of yab about the latter's pending explanation of something or other. Dismissive about setup analysis.

[Ythan]

Dr, you're scum. Your hop onto Net is disingenuous and your demand that he provide meta to dispute it as well. Beef, how can you suspect just me OR Net if the basis of your suspicion is that we're both scum?

[Ythan]

I'm looking over a lot of setup information before I look at the smaller pool of probably meaningless RVS information. Are you questioning why I'm not contributing to the noise?

Well with your sole contribution to the game having been one word I was trying to get more content out of you.

Immediately after my first post? Has everyone even posted?

No, drmy hadn't but the point is that popping in to just say "hey" is active lurking, which is scummier than just not having posted yet.

Bullshit it's active lurking. Not every post devoid of content falls under that heading.

I don't think there is much to glean from the setup at this point, all we know is that we have VV or VVVV (and either way, we have at least 1 Vigilante).

Anyone with any role other than vig knows more than that.

And of these people who are not Vigs (or VTs), who is going to talk about it? You're left with power roles and mafia. Neither wants to be outed, so revealing more knowledge of the setup is dumb no matter how you look at it.

So whatever setup info anyone has aside from knowing that it's VV or VVVV, they aren't going to tell anyone else about it.

I was not talking about gleaning information through discussion. I said originally that I was looking over setup information before looking over the smaller amount of information in the thread thus far. You then quoted me to say that there was little or nothing to glean, for no reason I can imagine.

Al, provide a reason for your vote on me.

I eenie meenie miney moed.

Doesn't match up.

I close my eyes and randomly point at the player list.

You sure are dodgy about the simplest possible question in the game.

If you can tell me what we have to gain from setup analysis right now, be my guest. Also, I find it funny how you're voting me for being inquisitive "but not useful" when, as you pointed out, some people hadn't even posted yet. What makes me scummier? If your answer resembles "active lurking" then head back to the beginning of this post.

But you were

actually

active lurking. That's different from

not

active lurking, so if you're trying to call me a hypocrite then that will have to wait.

[quote='Ythan"]Dr, you're scum. Your hop onto Net is disingenuous and your demand that he provide meta to dispute it as well. Beef, how can you suspect just me OR Net if the basis of your suspicion is that we're both scum?

And yet, you have no problem with ekiM's vote. Why?[/quote]Is there supposed to be some contradiction here?

[Ythan]

No, drmy hadn't but the point is that popping in to just say "hey" is active lurking, which is scummier than just not having posted yet.

Bullshit it's active lurking. Not every post devoid of content falls under that heading.

So, what does posting "Hey." accomplish? Tell me that.

It allows me to egosearch the thread so I can check back in as well as confirming my presence.

And of these people who are not Vigs (or VTs), who is going to talk about it? You're left with power roles and mafia. Neither wants to be outed, so revealing more knowledge of the setup is dumb no matter how you look at it.

So whatever setup info anyone has aside from knowing that it's VV or VVVV, they aren't going to tell anyone else about it.

I was not talking about gleaning information through discussion. I said originally that I was looking over setup information before looking over the smaller amount of information in the thread thus far. You then quoted me to say that there was little or nothing to glean, for no reason I can imagine.

Just stating a fact. We now know it's VV or VVVV. What does that tell us? Not much, we know there's a Vigilante and that's pretty much all we know.

Then why did you question my consideration of the setup in the first place?

I close my eyes and randomly point at the player list.

You sure are dodgy about the simplest possible question in the game.

I just answered.

And you lied.

Also, I find it funny how you're voting me for being inquisitive "but not useful" when, as you pointed out, some people hadn't even posted yet. What makes me scummier? If your answer resembles "active lurking" then head back to the beginning of this post.

But you were

actually

active lurking. That's different from

not

active lurking, so if you're trying to call me a hypocrite then that will have to wait.

Alright. I accused you of active lurking. You're accusing me of active lurking. See a problem? Plus, your one-word post was way more empty than anything I've posted.

That's not to say you're active lurking now, but, at the time, you were.

You foolish fool. Do you just not know what active lurking is?

Dr, you're scum. Your hop onto Net is disingenuous and your demand that he provide meta to dispute it as well.

And yet, you have no problem with ekiM's vote. Why?

Is there supposed to be some contradiction here?

Yeah. What's the difference between drmy and ekiM's votes?[/quote]Well I said that Dr's was disingenuous. It's still in the quote pyramid actually.

[Ythan]

Why am I scummy? And ythan, I like meta reading people

That's fine. I called your in-thread request for it disingenuous.

[Ythan]

Beef, how can you suspect just me OR Net if the basis of your suspicion is that we're both scum?

Not true. It was purely speculation. I find you both suspicious from a few actions, but don't really have much of a case- thus an FoS.

A few actions. That description does not seem to match.

[Ythan]

Then you don't believe me. What am I supposed to freak out about it or try to prove to you what I was thinking? No. I was speculating on the setup and thinking about the one kill.

[Ythan]

I just said what I was trying to gain in the post that you quoted.

[Ythan]

Knowing how players in this game would act as a vigilante, a role whose actions are immediately apparent if successful, would aid in my speculation. I was trying to narrow it down but in this complicated setup that really won't be fruitful for some time.

[Ythan]

No. What makes you say that?

The reason you gave for voting me is a lie. Had i not said that very plainly?

Forgive me, but here's a quick wiki definition:

A subset of lurking is the so-called "active lurking", where a player posts in the thread but without making any contribution to the progress of the game.

Posting "Hey." sounds like it fits.

So you

were

active lurking. And I dropped one post for my egosearch before I settled down to business. Not the same.

Okay. What makes it disingenuous?

It does not. Read. As genuine. Next.

Narrow what down?

Really, do you not see how what roles may be in the game might narrow down what roles are in the game?

[Ythan]

Exactly. That's what I call active lurking. Asking that question indicates that he was paying no attention to exactly what he was pretending to want to know.

[Ythan]

Secondly, how was I even active lurking before? Asking questions does progress the game.

At least

as much as random voting.

Have I not been clear that I found your feigned inquiries disingenuous?

Elaborate. It's disingenuous because it doesn't read as genuine? Lame.

Are you some kind of maroon. I think you're lying. How much clearer can I make that for you.

So. What was the point of that question, hmm?

It is literally as if you are unable to read because I find myself faced with the exact same questions I have already answered for you numerous times.

[Ythan]

Ythan, please answer the question on everyone's lips, which is to explain why you suggested asking everyone if they liked vigging N0 in the first place. What were you trying to achieve?

I have answered this. I was speculating on my own about the nature of the setup. It was unwise for me to ask that question but it did not occur to me at the time.

And what makes you think that they're disingenuous?

This is a dumb question. You are either being intentionally obtuse or you are just obtuse. I don't trust your inquiry because I don't trust your inquiry. It's how it reads to me. I will not attempt to further break this down.

How about you actually elaborate like I asked?

Yep.

More question dodging.

Incorrect, and this is a poor attempt at painting it so. I have answered each question you have asked. In some cases I answered before you even did so, for the nth time anyway.

The way I interpreted the question, it was more of a question of whether or not there is an SK in this game. In which case, the lack of 2 kills on N0 means it is less likely for there to be an SK than before. Either way, it should become more apparent after another night, I would think.

This is correct. The most useful point in speculating about night kills, as a townie, is the consideration of whether or not there might be a serial killer present.

[Ythan]

'I was speculating' is not an answer to that question. What did you think the benefits for town were of this kind of speculation? What were you hoping to achieve?

I've answered the question. I was speculating. Repeating yourself isn't going to make me change my answer.

@Ythan: Why did you phrase the question in question as "would it be acceptable to ask..." instead of asking the question outright?

Why is explaining a random vote as eenie-meenie-minie-moe not a reason, no less dodging?

Because I was uncertain of the impact it might have. And his explanation is simply a lie. His explanation of it is very shifty and I can see no good reason not to answer such a simple question properly.

That's equivalent to saying I'm scummy because I'm scummy.

If you want to just drop this one off without explaining it then go on ahead.

Obviously not an elaboration.

I would have repeated what I said in the immediately preceding quote if I didn't overestimate your short term memory.

Hardly. I often have to repeat my questions to you -- such as the above 2, among others.

No, you just disregard my answers because you want to keep this going. Or you're dumb. I don't have enough experience with you as a player to say.

And let me be clear when I say that posting "Hey." and then not contributing at all is scummy.

This is a pathetic attempt at an accusation. Maybe I don't need so much experience with you.

Fixed quote tag. ~~NS

[Ythan]

I have

directly

referred back to such instances on at least one occasion. I'm not going to keep spoonfeeding you because you can't bother read through the five page thread.

[Ythan]

How on Earth could I have something to hide? I'm just not babying you because I hate when players like you need everything spoonfed to them five times in a row. So you can use those page browsing buttons on the bottom and read the game you're playing in for yourself.

[Ythan]

I was uncertain, which is why I asked. I had a hunch it might not be ideal so instead of coming out and asking I did that.

PREVIEW Beef, if someone else wants to baby him then that's their business.

[Ythan]

This isn't an issue of pride it's an issue of the same stupid anti-town behavior I see all the time when people can't read a thread to answer their own damn questions.

[Ythan]

It is you who is making it a big issue by asking me to repeat myself instead of reading for the information you're making a pretense of wanting to know. If you actually want to know you'd be scrolling up to read it.

[Ythan]

I did not say he is disingenuous being he's not being genuine, actually. And if you want me to flip out over the fact that I asked an anti-town question, I'm not going to. I acknowledge that it was a mistake. I don't know what you hope to gain by continuing to harp on it. That situation is over, it's not going to develop any further.

[Ythan]

It is a real shame that that isn't what you said I said.

[Ythan]

Are you so great a fool as to conflate gut with tautology?

[Ythan]

Ugh. Spoonfeed mode. It, what you quoted, is not what you, Alduskkel, said that I, Ythan, said, tautology.

[Ythan]

You foolish fool. How many times do I have to say gut. Gut gut gut. Gut gut. Intestines bowels. Sphincter.

[Ythan]

Then mope about it or move on? I don't need to explain myself further. If you don't like it then you can vote. That's that.

[Ythan]

blah blah

Semi-open setup means that I don't know what the setup is but I can figure it out, to an extent. I want to know as much as possible. I was speculating in the literal sense. In my head. There is no why. It's what I was doing.

The Fonz has a solid point there, Ythan. What were you hoping to accomplish with your question?

Nice contribution.

I'll stack Ythan's meta of being noticeably more bitter and hostile as scum on top of the laundry list of everything else stated.

Posting a single game where I act this way as scum is a poor attempt to use meta when I do act exactly the same way as town. All you're doing is showing I act a certain way, a certain way everyone knows I act. Not really how to use meta.

[Ythan]

Considering that he bothered to attempt to differentiate my scum play from my town play he can't get off the hook by saying he just doesn't know one.

[Ythan]

Hey yabba no part of that case on me makes sense in a "Ythan is scum and here's why" sense.

[Ythan]

Ythan, are you scum?

I'm town. This is a stupid question. Ask one that isn't stupid please.

[Ythan]

I have trouble with ending pointless discussions on my own. Why are you still asking irrelevant questions instead of ones that might contribute to something useful? If you think that last question had some purpose other than keeping your post count up, please enlighten me.

[Ythan]

Did you actually see what "babying" I did?

[Ythan]

Are you asking me to rank every player in order from least to most scummy?

[Ythan]

I do mind. I am not going to list who I find least suspicious. Those who I find most suspicious I have invariably attacked in the now seven-page thread.

[Ythan]

Yab I believe that Dr's request for my suspects was an attempt to appear active. However, I'll give you a top scummies list.

[Ythan]

Al, then dr.

[Ythan]

I find it suspect that in your four posts you have answered no questions that I have not answered, and that if you think I haven't done so satisfactorily you have not followed up yourself. Blatantly hopping onto my wagon with no proper justification.

[Ythan]

you have asked*

[Ythan]

Unless you can make some meager attempt to show where I'm hiding something you're blowing smoke. Despite all the outlandish obfuscation in this thread I have seen no attempt to explain how I'm actually hiding anything. It's on the verge of getting pathetic.

[Ythan]

One, no. I had already posted the answers to his inane questions. That more or less invalidates the next few lines. However, two, even if it didn't, your leap to "hiding something" verges on stupid. You already have a conclusion you like and you're making a wild leap from what evidence you have (although, see point one) to that conclusion. As for your discomfort about my response to his "random" vote, that is almost LESS than ZERO percent relevant somehow. Are you just looking for filler to stretch the post out or do you think that actually helps your case?

[Ythan]

I find it suspect that in your four posts you have answered no questions that I have not answered, and that if you think I haven't done so satisfactorily you have not followed up yourself. Blatantly hopping onto my wagon with no proper justification.

You can't tell me what answers I should be satisfied with.

Does this mean anything or are you just griping?

Ok gere goes my thoughts on what has happened lately.
Dry is lurking and being unuseful.
My opinion on beef is that he is dumb and VI'ish
I think the vote count has it right, Ythan and Net are pretty scummy
I think no one should be lynched untill we hear more from Dry Ald and Ekim

Are you actually in this game or are you just reading along?

yep

I'm going to call bullshit on you actually following it up. Easy active lurking.

[Ythan]

Prox. I asked Al to provide a reason for his vote because votes should always be accompanied by something. Yes, even in RVS. After that I continued because his response was a lie. I already said why I asked the vig question but thanks for asking again. I didn't vote Dr because I was already voting Al. For the umpteenth fucking time I asked the vig question because I was thinking about the setup. If you call it backtracking when I realized the mistake then I wouldn't care because it's in the past and can't be changed. If you were just reading my posts about Dr then I'm not going to repeat why I found him scummy for you, you JUST read it yourself.

[Ythan]

He said that he did eenie meenie whatever. When that didn't work he said he closed his eyes and pointed. Both of these contradict each other, apart from being wrong. He just made up reasons afterward when it would be incredibly simple to give whatever random reason he used.

If a large percent of respondents would hold fire on N0 as vigs, or vice versa, it would be indicative of whether there was a vig in a game with only one kill N0.

[Ythan]

"Both of these contradict each other, apart from being wrong."

I mean to say, it's pretty clear that he did not actually do one of these things.

[Ythan]

Awesome. That's what I'm talking about.

[Ythan]

Didn't we already get past how I made a mistake and don't care anymore. If you think that's why then keep it in mind when you cast a vote. End of story.

[Ythan]

I saw a dead one-shot. I am fairly certain that this leaves uncertain whether there is a vigilante or there are two. What point are you actually approaching, your attack seems now solely to be that I didn't read and I see no connection to a useful accusation.

[Ythan]

I think it obvious enough that I had read the flip. It's the reason that I asked specifically about vigilantes. As for your comparison to of me to Net, I hardly see the relevance or value of a connection based on my lack surety to his poor reading skills. Apples and oranges.

As for your second post; how many times do I have to repeat this. If you think it's just an excuse then stop obsessing and move on to something else. If you want you vote me over it then do so, but I can't imagine what new information you think you're going to procure by repeating it until you're blue in the face.

[Ythan]

It was a mistake in one post. Your "can't get the story straight" angle shows that I made a mistake in that post. The rest of my oeuvre is more consistent. What I am not finding consistent is your line of inquiry with any goal that I can envision for you.

As for your generous helping along of Prox with his consideration, do you actually imagine that Al was telling the truth? After the lead up to the post where he eventually explained his vote as quoted in your post?

[Ythan]

If I am not mistaken it was posted quite a bit after the incident, long since I had moved on from the brief mistaken curiosity and long since I had grown tired of the disappointing direction that nearly this entire thread has taken.

[Ythan]

For the umpteenth time; okay, vote me. Then get on with it. We're on page eleven. I'm not going to elaborate my defense because there is nothing to elaborate. I can either wait for you to stop caring or make something up. I'll do the former. If you really want I'll keep reiterating this, but nothing new.

[Ythan]

I'm not bullying, haranguing, or pressuring you to do anything. I don't know why you're acting like a victim here. I don't know why you're acting like I'm obstructing anything, either. The only possibility I can see is that you are so sure I'm lying that you will consider me to be 'obstructing' your investigation as long as I don't spill my guts about secretly being scum.

[Ythan]

You foolish fool. There is no line of investigation. You just keep saying "Nope you're lying." Be dissatisfied with my explanation. I care just short of nothing. Cast a vote and hope to see me lynched. If you have an actual question, something that ends in a ? that I can give you a response to, do so, otherwise quit griping.

[Ythan]

Every scummy thing or the one question I never even asked and the time I said a vig instead of one or two vigs? And don't act like I'm curtailing discussion when you won't even ask a proper question for me to answer.

[Ythan]

I think you might be right about the anti-town nature of that particular discussion, if it's the one I think it is.

[Ythan]

I said I was speculating. Trying to work out if there is a vig is speculation. I was clarifying, not changing my answer. The extent to which I have needed to make clear the already incalculably clear in this thread is literally dumbfounding.

And I don't know what caused the mistake. It was minor and a long time ago and I don't keep track of things that I

didn't notice myself doing

. You're really reaching with that one.

[Ythan]

Are you seriously this dense? Who notices a mistake that they make in the process of making it. What is that. Honestly.

[Ythan]

I'm sure I did but I don't keep track of or take notes on the writing process behind everyone one of my posts so I can waste time answering these sorts of questions later. I also don't see how you missed my previous sentiment and think that realizing a mistake

after

the fact somehow gives you an edge on remembering what you were thinking in the past. And no, I wasn't asking what people would do as vigs when I asked if they'd like to answer. You can say a is b until you're blue in the face but it won't go anywhere an I'm not going to help you pound a square peg into a round hole.

[Ythan]

Which is?

[Ythan]

Where is focus due.

[Ythan]

I have no further response to Fonz. His latest post seems to be of nothing more than reprimands for my earlier play, which is less than necessary.

[Ythan]

Sorry everyone, my house got hit by lightening, and I just got a new computer today.

I missed.

[Ythan]

Are you asking why you'd lie about a random vote as if it's preposterous for a player to do that? If not then word your question better.

[Ythan]

I think talking about those things would constitute as rolefishing, and help the mafia. Do you disagree?

Because, really, can't you guess why scum might "randomly" vote a player on the Day after N0?

The case on Al isn't currently strong enough to get him lynched today. And there's more than one scum. I'd rather have a known scum alive N1 than an unknown one; this game has a vig in it.

"Hey I'm not going to ask you these questions because I think you're a PR and I don't want the mafia to know." Is this as daft as I'm making it out to be or am I just misreading?

[Ythan]

No, it doesn't. If I was the Mafia Spy I could be voting Ythan to indicate that he was Vanilla.

Even having a spy in the game is, if I recall, a 1/32 chance?

Also, reading more I don't know what to make of Prox. If he was really trying to be secretive why would he be going on and on about thinking I have a power? And on and on and on.

[Ythan]

Hey Ythan, you questioned my random vote on you because I didn't post a reason. Why didn't you question The Fonz, too? He did it in post 29.

I chose one player. You. When you botched your response I stuck with it.

Prox, spy speculation is farfetched. Especially when we know we have at least two Vs. Is it even possible? Checking.

[Ythan]

Had the letter system backwards. Still possible, still far fetched.

[Ythan]

Well Prox, what exactly was your reasoning for that role business with me?

[Ythan]

Are you referring to 344?

[Ythan]

When he refuses to explain it satisfactorily it becomes a big deal. Also please learn the not so subtle differences between high volume and spam. It will make you look like you're not misrepresenting people in the future.

[Ythan]

And high volume still sucks if people are content to be in a hidey hole the [w]hole game.

Not my fault. That's always the problem with lurkers.

Sigh.

Can we focus on the whole scumhunting thing now?

Scummy. Everyone posting is attempting to find scum (or lying if they are scum).

[Ythan]

Sorry everyone, my house got hit by lightening, and I just got a new computer today.

Seems legitimate. Who would lie about something like that?

SOMEONE WHO WANTS TO LURK. Was this a serious question?

Sigh.

Can we focus on the whole scumhunting thing now?

Scummy. Everyone posting is attempting to find scum (or lying if they are scum).

Unvote
Vote: Ythan

either you are just scimming the thread or you don't want people to start really scum hunting. Yes of course we all want to know who the scum is, but not everyone is doing so, not even you.

You're a fucking dumbass, no offense.

[Ythan]

Not to dr I couldn't.

[Ythan]

Scum pretended to scumhunt in the first mafia game ever. It is one of the most integral behaviors in the game. If this is news to anyone then go back to newbies please.

[Ythan]

Personal, no. Entirely based on the post to which it was a response. And come on, I said no offense.

[Ythan]

There's a good way to keep me from calling you a dumbass. Don't make posts like that one.

[Ythan]

How about this. Back up the post. Explain how it's valid. Even better, do so with the vote. At this point in the game it is an incredibly weak one.

[Ythan]

Oh look the mod doesn't like whining. How about the game then, dr and his white knight?

[Ythan]

Net why do you look so much like you're just wagoning?

[Ythan]

I can put him at -1.

[Ythan]

Yes this is what good scum do, but bad scum like yourself just question why everyone is scum hunting, because you are scared of being caught.

Unvote
Vote: Dry

So fucking weak.

(but I'm not)...

Oh good then.

[Ythan]

Before a claim, dr? Please try harder.

[Ythan]

That's anti-town. There are proper ways to deal with claims, even ones you don't believe.

[Ythan]

incase all scum isnt already voting him,

I dont want a hammer before claim.

Do I need to explain why

this

is disingenuous?

[Ythan]

It's exactly the opposite of what you were saying a mere moment before.

[Ythan]

Hey. I've been having connectivity problems but I think things are looking up.

[Ythan]

Beef is better than nothing. With eleven hours I'll hammer. It's not like anything else is going to happen. May as well just do it now?

[Ythan]

It's worthwhile for him to claim if he has the opportunity.

[Ythan]

Oh hey, look at that. Bah go town.

[Ythan]

boo

[Ythan]

The purpose is to weaken the cop.