Mini 1012: Mafia In Soraville (Game Over!)

[Friend]

A DH/IP scumteam is hard to believe.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Just saying, every time I check the thread I think how funny it would be to toss a hammer if someone gets to L-1. Take that into consideration when waiting til there to claim .

I don't get it. Explain the joke.

[Friend]

Nay, I have a feeling he's frustrated by your playstyle, just as I am.

So, I'll just wait for a bandwagon to build and then hammer to end the day. No one really seems to care that much.

Unless the BW is on Jack, my votes already on him.

I think he's referencing this.

[ortiz1193]

...am I the only one who thinks DH is completely wrong here?

It might just be me but Kov is actually making sense and DH is just saying "no that's wrong you're stupid" to everything.

------------

Why I want to lynch Kov when I "did the same thing he did"...which I didn't. Kov had a terrible plan which did nothing based on a logical fallacy.

Why do you think your plan was better than his? His worked.

He had a valid reason. You didn't. I don't see how that's so hard to understand.

DH: When you pulled that 'stunt' in RVS, you said you did it to figure out who would attack the easy target. Kov did what he did to make you contradict yourself, which worked.

unvote, vote DemonHybrid

DH is completely contradicting himself and saying he isn't + bad gut feeling that the kov wagon built up faster than any other wagon today when someone like TL was probably more scummy and it took him a few days to get to L-2.

Note: Kov should probably still get lynched for lurking at some point.

----------

I think twomz is just being scummy to make me want to lynch him more.

[TheLonging]

Kov is still scum but nice logic ortiz.

see dh?

[ready2rock]

@ortiz: kind of like what I said 2 pages ago?

I see your post as a flat out lie. You would vote TL to get me to contradict myself? Worked pretty well, didn't it?

Yeah it did. Voting for someone else intentionally just to get someone to be suspicious of you in a way that you can call scummy? What kind of crazy person would pull such a gambit.

Congrats Kov, you got DH to contradict himself twice.

@DH: While you're at it, do you want to reply to the rest of that post where I voted you a few pages back?

Thanks for ignoring me DH. I really appreciate it.

[Friend]

Meh, I still think DH is town. I still think he lied about voting for Jack just to save face, which helps explain the contradiction.

Ortiz if you still think Kov should be lynched put your vote back on him, a DH lynch probably isn't going to happen today and I don't think it's very useful to pursue it at this point in time. We have bigger fish to fry.

[DemonHybrid]

@ortiz: kind of like what I said 2 pages ago?

I see your post as a flat out lie. You would vote TL to get me to contradict myself? Worked pretty well, didn't it?

Yeah it did. Voting for someone else intentionally just to get someone to be suspicious of you in a way that you can call scummy? What kind of crazy person would pull such a gambit.

Congrats Kov, you got DH to contradict himself twice.

@DH: While you're at it, do you want to reply to the rest of that post where I voted you a few pages back?

Thanks for ignoring me DH. I really appreciate it.

You know, I've worked 4 of the last 5 days. My mind's a bit fried at the moment.

I'm going to look over the last few pages to sort out this Kov/r2r business in a bit.

[InflatablePie]

Kov is actually making sense now. It took me a minute, but I understand what he's getting at.

Unvote, Vote: DemonHybrid

By the way, Jack had a reason for voting me? Is that what you're saying? Because I've read him in ISO and I can't see a post where he's given reasoning at all. Well, there's one where he says something of mine is scummy, but I honestly don't know what he's saying in that post, so... yeah.

Just saying, every time I check the thread I think how funny it would be to toss a hammer if someone gets to L-1. Take that into consideration when waiting til there to claim .

I don't get it. Explain the joke.

Explaining a joke is like dissecting a frog. You understand it better but the frog dies in the process.

That said,

FoS Twomz

. (b' ')b

[DemonHybrid]

1.

@DH: You missed my original point, which was that Jack is more experienced than I am, and is therefore more confident than I am. You took that to mean that I "have something to hide".

2.

On your point, we had this debate in SHM3 with METALfootball, and I'm starting to agree with him to an extent. You people all seem to think that the town answer to a wagon is to not care about it, or that you should somehow not defend yourself against suspicions because "only scum care about getting lynched". I don't agree that town should prevent their lynch just as much as scum should, but I do agree that allowing a mislynch because it's the "town thing to do" is against your win condition.

3.

@Friend: He seems to hop on the largest bandwagon and seems to be calling everyone scum.
Pie
me
Kov
Friend
TheLonging
esuriospiritus

It just seems like he's pointing fingers around for the sake of looking more pro-town.

...Oh, and this post:

Well, he's L-2. We can wait for a claim or just go for it with the information we have.

EBWOP: Think of it this way:

If Pie flips town, that's one mislynch (which happens nearly all the time anyway on D1). If he flips scum, that's one nearly-guaranteed scum in Kov who weakly slithered his way out of the conversation, and a big suspicion in TL who cracked and voted IP out of pressure, and that's a LOT to gain on Day 1 with such a small risk.

As was said earlier on the page:

scum want town to end day 1 with as little information and reads as possible

He also says his scummiest read is Pie when (from the looks of it), all he did was voice his suspicion of Jack (something to note if DH flips scum, maybe they planned the whole RVS thing in the QT?).

I like my case on DH, so I'll go ahead and VOTE: DemonHybrid.

By the way, I'm still waiting for the case on Pie as I still don't see it.

1. Woosh. Confidence has nothing to do with being town. You need confidence if you're scum because you have something to hide. So yes, you saying that you'd need more confidence before you start contributing looks scummy.

2. Metametametametametametametameta
meta

meta

I never said that one should allow themselves to be lynched if they're town. I said they shouldn't be -afraid- to be lynched. Not being afraid and being confident are two wildly different things. Not being afraid and not wanting to die are two different things. You guys are generalizing everything.

3. Cool, except that I never suspected esurio and I think Friend is town now. I never called Haschel scum, nor MvK. I said "I could see Twomz as being scum" and never said that I outwardly think that he is. I never thought Fugi was scum, just neutral. Me calling Jack scummy was at the beginning of D1 an*INSERT DEAD HORSE BEATING HERE*

Also, I never voted TL, so I can't see how I hopped on that bandwagon. I was the first to vote Friend (and the only one if I recall). The only one to vote Kov. I voted for Pie after I was absolutely sure that I felt that he was scum.

Insert Credit to continue.

1. I don't mean that I'm not confident enough to contribute, I mean that I'm not confident enough to pull off a gambit like Jack did.

2. What does that have to do with meta? I said nothing about your playstyle. I don't even remember if you were in that conversation. Me mentioning a previous game does not make it meta and therefore useless. This has to do with gameplay in general.

I'm not afraid of getting lynched, I just don't think that it would benefit the town right now. I don't know where you got that I was afraid of getting lynched to begin with.

By the way, "You guys are generalizing everything" is in itself a generalization.

3. "calling everyone scum" was a hyperbole. I still think my point is somewhat valid. However, I will take back 2 things on this:
1. esurio: I thought you were one of the people suspicious of him for finding Pie town. My bad.
2. I thought you had voted TL. You sure call him scum a lot.

*digs in pockets*
aww man, I'm out of quarters

1. Understood.

2. Talking about past games is part of meta. http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Meta

Also, I never said you're afraid of being lynched...I was talking about an in general situation there. And no, saying "you guys are generalizing everything" has nothing to do with generalizing anything. Please explain this.

3. To each their own. I don't think it was a valid point. It has a lot of holes.

[DemonHybrid]

...am I the only one who thinks DH is completely wrong here?

It might just be me but Kov is actually making sense and DH is just saying "no that's wrong you're stupid" to everything.

------------

Why I want to lynch Kov when I "did the same thing he did"...which I didn't. Kov had a terrible plan which did nothing based on a logical fallacy.

Why do you think your plan was better than his? His worked.

He had a valid reason. You didn't. I don't see how that's so hard to understand.

DH: When you pulled that 'stunt' in RVS, you said you did it to figure out who would attack the easy target. Kov did what he did to make you contradict yourself, which worked.

unvote, vote DemonHybrid

DH is completely contradicting himself and saying he isn't + bad gut feeling that the kov wagon built up faster than any other wagon today when someone like TL was probably more scummy and it took him a few days to get to L-2.

Note: Kov should probably still get lynched for lurking at some point.

----------

I think twomz is just being scummy to make me want to lynch him more.

Point missed. The conversation is about Jack's vote of IP compared to Kov's vote of TL. Please restate your argument here.

[DemonHybrid]

Kov, I know I'm blurring the lines of the different arguments here, but the validity of your "gambit" on TL compared to the validity of my gambit on Jack is almost the same. Some people don't believe my gambit. I don't believe yours. It's like the -same- argument. So, why aren't people like IP, Friend, TL, esurio being accused for being scummy when they don't believe my gambit, yet I am when I say I don't believe yours?

[DemonHybrid]

Kov is actually making sense now. It took me a minute, but I understand what he's getting at.

Unvote, Vote: DemonHybrid

By the way, Jack had a reason for voting me? Is that what you're saying? Because I've read him in ISO and I can't see a post where he's given reasoning at all. Well, there's one where he says something of mine is scummy, but I honestly don't know what he's saying in that post, so... yeah.

More of a reason then Kov had for voting TL at least.

Nice of you to hop on my wagon, too, when it seemed most opportune to you. If I'm going to die, remember this vote.

[DemonHybrid]

Kov, I know I'm blurring the lines of the different arguments here, but the validity of your "gambit" on TL compared to the validity of my gambit on Jack is almost the same. Some people don't believe my gambit. I don't believe yours. It's like the -same- argument. So, why aren't people like IP, Friend, TL, esurio being accused for being scummy when they don't believe my gambit, yet I am when I say I don't believe yours?

EBWOP: Compared to what I said in my reply to Ortiz:

There are two different arguments here, and they shouldn't be confused with each other.

1. Jack's vote of IP compared to Kov's vote of TL.
2. The validity of my gambit compared to the validity of Kov's gambit.

Be careful of meshing them both together...if you compare Kov's vote of TL to my gambit, or Kov's gambit to Jack's vote of IP, you're blurring the lines of the two.

[ready2rock]

@DH: Please finish replying to my post. Escpecially this part.

Well, he's L-2. We can wait for a claim or just go for it with the information we have.

EBWOP: Think of it this way:

If Pie flips town, that's one mislynch (which happens nearly all the time anyway on D1). If he flips scum, that's one nearly-guaranteed scum in Kov who weakly slithered his way out of the conversation, and a big suspicion in TL who cracked and voted IP out of pressure, and that's a LOT to gain on Day 1 with such a small risk.

This is the most anti-town post all game and what caused me to really be suspicious of you in the first place.

On Kov: If I'm understanding him right, he was never really suspicious of TL. He voted for a large bandwagon just to get you to contradict yourself because you found Jack's wagoning OK and his wagoning not OK.

Shorter version of above: it has NOTHING to do with TheLonging.

[ready2rock]

EBWOP: it's also the fact that you pulled a gambit early in the game and got frustrated with people who didn't believe you, then found someone else to be scum because they pulled a very similar gambit. I made a post about it earlier. It's nearer the top of the page.

[DemonHybrid]

@DH: Please finish replying to my post. Escpecially this part.

Well, he's L-2. We can wait for a claim or just go for it with the information we have.

EBWOP: Think of it this way:

If Pie flips town, that's one mislynch (which happens nearly all the time anyway on D1). If he flips scum, that's one nearly-guaranteed scum in Kov who weakly slithered his way out of the conversation, and a big suspicion in TL who cracked and voted IP out of pressure, and that's a LOT to gain on Day 1 with such a small risk.

This is the most anti-town post all game and what caused me to really be suspicious of you in the first place.

On Kov: If I'm understanding him right, he was never really suspicious of TL. He voted for a large bandwagon just to get you to contradict yourself because you found Jack's wagoning OK and his wagoning not OK.

Shorter version of above: it has NOTHING to do with TheLonging.

There are so many connections to Pie at this moment with people who back him up, people who oppose him, people who don't really have an opinion on him. He's probably at the center of our discussions. Jack falls a little bit short. Think of how much info would be gained on his flip. If he's town, we lose a townie, but we get a TON of information. If he's scum, we kill scum. And then we get even MORE information. I don't see how that's such an anti-town post.

[DemonHybrid]

EBWOP: it's also the fact that you pulled a gambit early in the game and got frustrated with people who didn't believe you, then found someone else to be scum because they pulled a very similar gambit. I made a post about it earlier. It's nearer the top of the page.

Reading comprehension....

Like I said: A few people don't believe my gambit. I don't believe Kov's.

[DemonHybrid]

@DH: Please finish replying to my post. Escpecially this part.

Well, he's L-2. We can wait for a claim or just go for it with the information we have.

EBWOP: Think of it this way:

If Pie flips town, that's one mislynch (which happens nearly all the time anyway on D1). If he flips scum, that's one nearly-guaranteed scum in Kov who weakly slithered his way out of the conversation, and a big suspicion in TL who cracked and voted IP out of pressure, and that's a LOT to gain on Day 1 with such a small risk.

This is the most anti-town post all game and what caused me to really be suspicious of you in the first place.

On Kov: If I'm understanding him right, he was never really suspicious of TL. He voted for a large bandwagon just to get you to contradict yourself because you found Jack's wagoning OK and his wagoning not OK.

Shorter version of above: it has NOTHING to do with TheLonging.

There are so many connections to Pie at this moment with people who back him up, people who oppose him, people who don't really have an opinion on him. He's probably at the center of our discussions. Jack falls a little bit short. Think of how much info would be gained on his flip. If he's town, we lose a townie, but we get a TON of information. If he's scum, we kill scum. And then we get even MORE information. I don't see how that's such an anti-town post.

EBWOP: I posted this when IP was at the top of my scumlist. Kov climbed a bit higher, IP's second at the moment (though he did spike up a bit after he conveniently placed himself on my wagon a few posts ago).

[ortiz1193]

Meh, I still think DH is town. I still think he lied about voting for Jack just to save face, which helps explain the contradiction.

Ortiz if you still think Kov should be lynched put your vote back on him, a DH lynch probably isn't going to happen today and I don't think it's very useful to pursue it at this point in time. We have bigger fish to fry.

What makes kov 'bigger fish to fry' than DH? Do you mean he's scummier or what? DH has posted a ton today so he's a pretty big fish as far as information goes. (I'm not saying we should lynch him for information before someone misreps me)

I originally voted kov because of his blatant scumminess a few pages ago, but after his small back and forth with DH, I understand where he was coming from, which nullifies that reasoning. Without those reasons, I don't really have much to base my vote off of. If someone has a case outside of that I'll gladly listen and reconsider my vote.

I mentioned we 'should probably lynch him for lurking at some point' has more to do with my semi-lynch all lurkers policy. I hate lurkers, they make me angry.

DH isn't like twomz, where there's virtually 0% chance of a lynch, I'll take a stand on DH unless someone can provide me evidence of a better candidate, or that DH isn't scum.

----------------

DH: Here's my problem:

More of a reason then Kov had for voting TL at least.

I completely disagree with this. Kov's reason was to make you contradict yourself. I have yet to see Jack's reasoning for voting Pie. You've been defending Jack all game, you should be able to point out his reasoning for voting Pie.

There are so many connections to Pie at this moment with people who back him up, people who oppose him, people who don't really have an opinion on him. He's probably at the center of our discussions. Jack falls a little bit short. Think of how much info would be gained on his flip. If he's town, we lose a townie, but we get a TON of information. If he's scum, we kill scum. And then we get even MORE information. I don't see how that's such an anti-town post.

The first time you posted this, I wasn't going to use it against you, because I thought you were just misguided. I'll try to explain it for you.

Lynching for information is TERRIBLE for town. We (Me/Fugi) used that in SHM3 to finish wagons on townies when they were almost lynched but people were afraid to finish the wagon. (Note: We were scum) "Lynching for information" is what you say when your case isn't strong enough by itself so you throw that in there at the end. Trust me, I've done it a million times. You saw what happened when townies actually listened to that crap.

Question for you:

What's the case on Pie? Last thing I saw about him being scum was his suggestion of a policy lynch of Jack? I swear I've seen it asked a hundred times and I haven't seen a solid case posted. Linking me to an already written post is fine.

Oh and I agree his vote on you is beyond scummy, but you can't use that as part of the case.

-------

Everyone else: Post.

Twomz best buddy ol' pal. What do you think about other people besides Jack? Me, DH, Kov, Pie? Even if you refuse to vote someone else, I'd like your opinions please.

Esurio, Haschel Cedricson, Jack, please post something. HC promised analysis today and just make some pointless post about Twomz being scummy.

[DemonHybrid]

"you can't use that as part of the case."

Fair enough. Answers to your post coming up soon, I need a glass of water.

[esuriospiritus]

Sorry I haven't been in here much, this game has got me so frelling lost.

Kov's vote and "reasoning" for that vote (to catch DH) is hella suspicious to me. Because he said nothing, of course he can make his vote out to be for any reason he wanted it to be later, and so I'm wary about believing that he set a "trap", especially one that he seems to claim was meant specifically for one person. I also don't think it's weird to think one person is scummy for pulling something close to what another person did when a.) Jack is known for pulling shit like voting people without immediate reasoning for reactions b.) Jack pulled his vote thing way earlier. You have to look at context sometimes when deciding whether or not something someone did as scummy, and Kov's actions came off as worse than Jack's given context imo.

However, while I find it suspicious, I don't think Kov's scum. Like ortiz said, his wagon just built up waaaaay too fast, and while that doesn't necessarily prove anything it makes me wary. Meanwhile, TL still doesn't seem any less scummy to me

[TheLonging]

WAIT

DH WAGON IS FINALLY TAKING OFF?

FUCK YES BEST THING EVER <33333

UNVOTE

VOTE: DEMONHYBRID

REMEMBER THOUGH IN CASE SOMEONE USES THIS AGAINST ME I STILL FIND KOV SCUMMY, THEN PIE. PIE IS THE LEAST SCUMMY OF MY TOP 5 SCUM READS. TWOMZ I'M NOT FOLLOWING UP ON TOO MUCH BUT HE SEEMS TO PLAY COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE AND AS FOR JACK? WELL, I"LL WAIT FOR JACK TO COME BACK BEFORE DECIDING ON A FINAL SOLID READ OF HIM

[ready2rock]

DH: Here's my problem:

More of a reason then Kov had for voting TL at least.

I completely disagree with this. Kov's reason was to make you contradict yourself. I have yet to see Jack's reasoning for voting Pie. You've been defending Jack all game, you should be able to point out his reasoning for voting Pie.

There are so many connections to Pie at this moment with people who back him up, people who oppose him, people who don't really have an opinion on him. He's probably at the center of our discussions. Jack falls a little bit short. Think of how much info would be gained on his flip. If he's town, we lose a townie, but we get a TON of information. If he's scum, we kill scum. And then we get even MORE information. I don't see how that's such an anti-town post.

The first time you posted this, I wasn't going to use it against you, because I thought you were just misguided. I'll try to explain it for you.

Lynching for information is TERRIBLE for town. We (Me/Fugi) used that in SHM3 to finish wagons on townies when they were almost lynched but people were afraid to finish the wagon. (Note: We were scum) "Lynching for information" is what you say when your case isn't strong enough by itself so you throw that in there at the end. Trust me, I've done it a million times. You saw what happened when townies actually listened to that crap.

Question for you:

What's the case on Pie? Last thing I saw about him being scum was his suggestion of a policy lynch of Jack? I swear I've seen it asked a hundred times and I haven't seen a solid case posted. Linking me to an already written post is fine.

It was also the fact that you implied that you wanted him lynched (I believe) within the next 24 hours. I can even sort of understand lynching for information, especially since you gave examples of said information (although I think we never get the info from a lynch that we think we will), it's the fact that we will get WAY more information from letting the day play out, and you wanting to get the day over as quickly as possible is anti-town.

Good luck on getting the case on Pie. I've been asking for it since page 12.

[DemonHybrid]

DH: Here's my problem:

More of a reason then Kov had for voting TL at least.

1.

I completely disagree with this. Kov's reason was to make you contradict yourself. I have yet to see Jack's reasoning for voting Pie. You've been defending Jack all game, you should be able to point out his reasoning for voting Pie.

There are so many connections to Pie at this moment with people who back him up, people who oppose him, people who don't really have an opinion on him. He's probably at the center of our discussions. Jack falls a little bit short. Think of how much info would be gained on his flip. If he's town, we lose a townie, but we get a TON of information. If he's scum, we kill scum. And then we get even MORE information. I don't see how that's such an anti-town post.

2.

The first time you posted this, I wasn't going to use it against you, because I thought you were just misguided. I'll try to explain it for you.

Lynching for information is TERRIBLE for town. We (Me/Fugi) used that in SHM3 to finish wagons on townies when they were almost lynched but people were afraid to finish the wagon. (Note: We were scum) "Lynching for information" is what you say when your case isn't strong enough by itself so you throw that in there at the end. Trust me, I've done it a million times. You saw what happened when townies actually listened to that crap.

3.

Question for you:

What's the case on Pie? Last thing I saw about him being scum was his suggestion of a policy lynch of Jack? I swear I've seen it asked a hundred times and I haven't seen a solid case posted. Linking me to an already written post is fine.

1. esurio actually took the words out of my mouth. Do you seriously believe that whenever someone says "....Oh! Hah! I caught you, it was my plan all along!" they really meant it in the first place? If so: Why don't you believe my gambit (or the others who don't, for that matter)?

As for Jack:

He started the discussion, yes. So what? I've started discussion before as both town and scum; it doesn't mean a single thing. Starting discussion =/= contributing to it.

Have you contributed to discussions as both town and scum?

Your purported western-centric ethos is scummy btw.

Pie's ideology that starting a discussion doesn't mean contributing to it is scummy to Jack. Western-centric is a weird way to put it (I said in my scumlist that I think he's been acting strange, but not specifically scummy).

P.S. - Funny how I'm the only one suspicious of Jack that he hasn't counter-voted/FoS'd, though.

Jack Post #4 » Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:38 am
unvote, vote:Inflatable Pie

This was a bit before I said you were a good lynch, though.

So why is it funny that I didn't "counter-fos" you?

A fallacy in IP's logic that Jack catches because...well, he's the one who voted him. To give credit to IP, he wasn't too up-to-date with who was voting for him, but then again, this topic exploded after a little while...even scum could've missed who would be voting for them.

esurio have a look at pie's scum meta:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 28&start=0

Implying that Pie is acting the same in this game then he was in that game. I scolded him for using a meta based argument on this one, but he has a point.

2. That was a little bit of a different situation. -everyone- in this game is connected to Pie in some way, as opposed to half of the SHM crowd that was comprised of lurkers and people who didn't really care, so I think this is a tad more of an appropriate situation to want to lynch for information, ESPECIALLY with so many arguments being fired around. It'd help clear the air just a little bit. You have to remember that not a single person is dead still. A counter question: Lets say that Pie dies today. If Pie flipped scum, who would be your new targets? If he flipped town, who would be your new targets?

3. I'll put this in another post. It'll be long and I don't want it meshed in with my other posts. Coming right up.