Mini 1012: Mafia In Soraville (Game Over!)

[DemonHybrid]

WAIT

DH WAGON IS FINALLY TAKING OFF?

FUCK YES BEST THING EVER <33333

UNVOTE

VOTE: DEMONHYBRID

REMEMBER THOUGH IN CASE SOMEONE USES THIS AGAINST ME I STILL FIND KOV SCUMMY, THEN PIE. PIE IS THE LEAST SCUMMY OF MY TOP 5 SCUM READS. TWOMZ I'M NOT FOLLOWING UP ON TOO MUCH BUT HE SEEMS TO PLAY COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE AND AS FOR JACK? WELL, I"LL WAIT FOR JACK TO COME BACK BEFORE DECIDING ON A FINAL SOLID READ OF HIM

Wow. Um, okay.

[ready2rock]

EBWOP: it's also the fact that you pulled a gambit early in the game and got frustrated with people who didn't believe you, then found someone else to be scum because they pulled a very similar gambit. I made a post about it earlier. It's nearer the top of the page.

Reading comprehension....

Like I said: A few people don't believe my gambit. I don't believe Kov's.

I'm talking about post 480. Try reading that.

Mod: vote totals please

[DemonHybrid]

DH: Here's my problem:

More of a reason then Kov had for voting TL at least.

I completely disagree with this. Kov's reason was to make you contradict yourself. I have yet to see Jack's reasoning for voting Pie. You've been defending Jack all game, you should be able to point out his reasoning for voting Pie.

There are so many connections to Pie at this moment with people who back him up, people who oppose him, people who don't really have an opinion on him. He's probably at the center of our discussions. Jack falls a little bit short. Think of how much info would be gained on his flip. If he's town, we lose a townie, but we get a TON of information. If he's scum, we kill scum. And then we get even MORE information. I don't see how that's such an anti-town post.

The first time you posted this, I wasn't going to use it against you, because I thought you were just misguided. I'll try to explain it for you.

Lynching for information is TERRIBLE for town. We (Me/Fugi) used that in SHM3 to finish wagons on townies when they were almost lynched but people were afraid to finish the wagon. (Note: We were scum) "Lynching for information" is what you say when your case isn't strong enough by itself so you throw that in there at the end. Trust me, I've done it a million times. You saw what happened when townies actually listened to that crap.

Question for you:

What's the case on Pie? Last thing I saw about him being scum was his suggestion of a policy lynch of Jack? I swear I've seen it asked a hundred times and I haven't seen a solid case posted. Linking me to an already written post is fine.

It was also the fact that you implied that you wanted him lynched (I believe) within the next 24 hours. I can even sort of understand lynching for information, especially since you gave examples of said information (although I think we never get the info from a lynch that we think we will), it's the fact that we will get WAY more information from letting the day play out, and you wanting to get the day over as quickly as possible is anti-town.

Good luck on getting the case on Pie. I've been asking for it since page 12.

Please point out where I wanted him lynched within 24 hours.

You completely missed where I said "we can wait for more information (a claim) or we can lynch him with the information we have" since he was v/la. So...if you meant that, woosh.

For post 480: Kov's gambit seemed much less planned out. I really can't say much more about this and I really don't know what you want. Friend, TL and Pie don't believe my gambit. esurio and I don't believe Kov's. I'm sure he's feeling frustrated either way. It's like you're expecting proof from either of us, when in fact, there's no proof of ANYTHING in mafia except for flips. (and even then, not every flip).

[ready2rock]

He was V/LA for 24 more hours. You suggesting to just lynch with the info we had implies to me that you wanted him lynched before he came back (within the next 24 hours).

[DemonHybrid]

It's like the fifth time he's said that because it needs to be pointed out because we want more votes on you. Oh, and nice move trying to divert suspicion on to me back there. Bravo.

Still want to hear from Twomz, as this debate will probably keep going for a while and I think he should offer his thoughts on it now instead of "waiting till it's over". Since he only answers questions directed at him: Twomz, what are your thoughts on DH vs Friend?

Preview edit: 3 new posts in the time I took to write this up? For the love of Cthulu...

Calls attention to himself when I never tried to divert suspicion onto him. ISO Pie and read back to that argument (I mentioned Pie in a fleeting argument with Friend and Pie thought it was an attack on himself). I didn't like this.

It's like the fifth time he's said that because it needs to be pointed out because we want more votes on you. Oh, and nice move trying to divert suspicion on to me back there. Bravo.

Oh no, I used you as an example!

I don't suspect you at all. Read again: "Going by your (Friend's) logic, I'm surprised that you aren't keeping an eye on IP"

So...hmmmmm.

I must have misread in that case. Sounded like you were trying to say, "hey look IP's doing *blah* but you never mentioned him; why aren't you suspicious of him but you're suspicious of me" the way it was worded.

You mentioned you "could have gone after [me] there" in that post as well. Elaborate? And go ahead and define interesting while you're at it.

"Oops. I screwed up." I thought I was very clear when I mentioned Pie.

IP, what is your case on Jack?

He's just playing extremely anti-town, although obviously, and at this point if he's going to barely contribute while being blatantly anti-town, I think a policy lynch is in order.

I'd be beating a dead horse if I talked about this post. Let's just leave it at that.

This was a bit before I said you were a good lynch, though.

So why is it funny that I didn't "counter-fos" you?

Because you've done it to practically everyone else in this game that's been suspicious of you... except me. It's... funny.

This whole argument...I mentioned it in my first point in my reply to Ortiz. I found it very weird that he was so dead set on debunking Jack's demeanor that he forgot that Jack was voting for him the whole time. That's what tunneling does to someone.

Demon: Okay, so Kov is lurky and fencesitting. We agree on this. I don't get why it's so bad that I agree with you on something. Especially since Kov hasn't made a ton of posts either, so it's hard to offer original views. There are people on my wagon who have gone along with views of the others, do you suspect them a bit?

Talks about Kov right after I make a case on him....no one's talked about Kov before I did. Very fishy.

Unvote, Vote: Kov

Yeah, his TL vote and the post after it are odd, and I'm getting scummier vibes from his latest post (deflection, plus the last two sentences are just... what?). I'm okay with this.

Time to jump on the wagon!

Kov is actually making sense now. It took me a minute, but I understand what he's getting at.

Unvote, Vote: DemonHybrid

Oh, oops, I mean, wait! Time to jump on this wagon!

Sorry, I know I said I wouldn't use his vote on me as part of this wagon, but I found it funny that he just rode along with the Kov wagon beforehand...and the point wouldn't be as strong if I didn't include it.

[DemonHybrid]

He was V/LA for 24 more hours. You suggesting to just lynch with the info we had implies to me that you wanted him lynched before he came back (within the next 24 hours).

That's why I mentioned the option of waiting for a claim instead of saying "Let's just lynch pie without a claim".

[InflatablePie]

So many walls, I'll read through them over the course of the next hour or two.

Friend had a case on me here for whoever asked. Can't speak for the others.

Preview Edit: Add another 20 or so on to that timer...
Preview Edit Again?: you postwhore :<

[DemonHybrid]

Ortiz: if you need me to go indepth about one of my points, please ask.

[ready2rock]

He was V/LA for 24 more hours. You suggesting to just lynch with the info we had implies to me that you wanted him lynched before he came back (within the next 24 hours).

That's why I mentioned the option of waiting for a claim instead of saying "Let's just lynch pie without a claim".

With your EBWOP, you seemed to be pushing for the lynch to happen sooner rather than later.

Gonna go read your case on pie now.

[TheLonging]

See, beating a dead horse isn't actually bad.

[ready2rock]

With the number of times he's brought it up, he's beating beating a dead horse

[DemonHybrid]

I've been beating a dead horse using the term beating a dead horse because you all are beating a dead horse beating a dead horse. It really is beating a dead horse.

I have a migraine.

[Kov]

Shorter version of above: it has NOTHING to do with TheLonging.

This is true.

I really wasn't expecting a wagon on DH I was hoping for a Jack one.

WAIT

DH WAGON IS FINALLY TAKING OFF?

FUCK YES BEST THING EVER <33333

I live to serve.

It's 4am here i'll read rest tomorrow.

Post Preview: Shhh about dead horses.

I have a migraine.

now

Got it?

[InflatablePie]

Sigh DH... I THINK you know what I'm talking about, you're just not making the connection. I'm not going to waste further time.

FoS: DemonHybrid, InflatablePie

Do we have a scumteam here? 2/3 I bet

WAIT

DH WAGON IS FINALLY TAKING OFF?

FUCK YES BEST THING EVER <33333

*snip*

PIE IS THE LEAST SCUMMY OF MY TOP 5 SCUM READS. *snip*

[DemonHybrid]

God, who do I vote for? You're all really scummy.

[Jack]

DH is seeming scummier

Haven't had time for mafia today but I can say that.

[TheLonging]

Pie; scumreads change over time. Hope you notice that. You're one of the most active out of the 5, but...

think of it this way. x/5

DH: 4.78/5 (posts a lot and has a lot of scummy stuff)
Kov: 4.40/5 (hardly posts, BW'd me, said really stupid stuff, only made up for it later (like, last page later)
Twomz: 4.35/5 (ortiz's case is good, and Twomz seems anti-town)
Jack: 4.30/5 (not much content to be found, I don't like most of what he does make, but people say it's how he usually plays, so whatever. He seemed to be playing mostly the same in a marathon game I was with him in, he turned up scum)
You: 4.15/5 (posts a lot, and has SOME towny stuff to balance out the scummy stuff)

[DemonHybrid]

DH: 4.78/5 (posts a lot and has a lot of scummy stuff)

Oh no, not posting a lot!

Here, compile a case against me, because I'm starting to forget why you're so vehemently for my lynch since the moment I started suspecting you. Make it good.

[InflatablePie]

Pie; scumreads change over time.

...over the course of 10 hours/26 posts? And I made only one post during this time?

To be honest, I was expecting you to argue that I am still scum and "bussing my buddy". Instead, you just went ahead and did a total 180 on your view of me.

I don't get it.

[esuriospiritus]

It's because he's scum, duh.

[ortiz1193]

1. esurio actually took the words out of my mouth. Do you seriously believe that whenever someone says "....Oh! Hah! I caught you, it was my plan all along!" they really meant it in the first place? If so: Why don't you believe my gambit (or the others who don't, for that matter)?

Yes. Its a null point since I wasn't in the game and can't prove it, but I was following it and I believed you. I thought you were town at the time too. I'm a fairly gullible person though.

---

Your purported western-centric ethos is scummy btw.

I had seen this post, I just didn't understand it. I'll take your word on what it means.

I wish Jack was here to expand on his reasonings, because it looks like he could probably make a solid case if he was here to explain it for himself. I can't put it together based on his short posts though.

Anyway I didn't really care too much about Jack's reasoning, I just wanted to make sure you could provide it.

2. That was a little bit of a different situation. -everyone- in this game is connected to Pie in some way, as opposed to half of the SHM crowd that was comprised of lurkers and people who didn't really care, so I think this is a tad more of an appropriate situation to want to lynch for information, ESPECIALLY with so many arguments being fired around. It'd help clear the air just a little bit. You have to remember that not a single person is dead still. A counter question: Lets say that Pie dies today. If Pie flipped scum, who would be your new targets? If he flipped town, who would be your new targets?

I think the concept applies just as much here, maybe more. The point was that we kept saying to lynch for information just to get the lynch through, and then we avoided going back to it by saying "Townies reads aren't always right anyway" - its a scummy reason to try and support a lynch. Plus there were like 6 mislynches in that game, and I think there's generally 3 in a mini. Its not a big deal to kill a VT on day 1/2 of a 25 person game, but every lynch is important in a mini. Its just a bad/scummy reason in general to push for a lynch.

I'd have to reread to answer that. I wasn't in the game through the first 15 pages so I only read everything one time, I don't remember small details here and there. I remember Fugi tunneling Pie from the beginning, so for example if Pie flips some expendable role like a goon I would be suspicious of Fugi for bussing, because Fugi would do that. I don't really know off the top of my head who's been defending him, but I'd look at that, subtle defenses, etc. If he flipped scum I'd probably take some heat as well because I've defended him a little.

Anyway, the same could be said for any person. You could sacrifice yourself since you'd probably give off more information than anyone else. (I obviously don't think you should do that)

--

You completely missed where I said "we can wait for more information (a claim) or we can lynch him with the information we have" since he was v/la

I forgot to point this out earlier. This is a scummy post. (Not this one, but the one you put in quotes) "Or we can lynch him with the information we have" is kind of a feeler. You don't push it, but you throw the idea out there to see if someone else will jump on the idea. Its like making a case on someone, not voting them, and wait until someone else votes the person before you do to make sure there's support behind it. I make a lot of posts like this as scum, so that's particularly telling to me.

---
Alright, reading through the thread to check up with your case on Pie.

In your first two quotes, I can see what you're getting at, but its not really a scumtell as far as I can see. Maybe paranoia? But Pie is by far competent enough to not be paranoid over something like that. I can see him legitimately misinterpreting your post.

Reading through I noticed something that I haven't seen mentioned.

Jack, I can't tell if you're:

- trolling
- actually scum
- town reaction testing

...but at this point, it's starting to get on my nerves for some reason.

This prefaces his policy lynch suggestion. I'm not really sure if its town telling (his feelings/read gradually increasing vs. him setting up the suggestion as scum) or scum telling. Occam's razor suggests town telling though. I don't know why anyone would try to set up a policy lynch in advance...especially someone who knows how scummy it is to talk about policy lynches.

The next point with the Jack/Pie thing just looks like Pie fail to me. I find it strange he's done that twice this game.. which is actually pretty opposite of Piescum meta. That's one reason I think he's town... Pie plays pretty well as scum and pretty scummy as town. I'll probably get attacked for using Meta to defend someone but I'll stand by my theory that meta is legit.

Top 5 suspects: TL, Jack, Kov, Fugitive, r2r.

Kov for his fencesitting-ish post about me way back there.

Wow, what?

Where did this come from? It sounds rather familiar.

All of a sudden after so long, Kov is a suspect for the same reason I suspect him for (and after no one else said anything about him)

Actually he posted about Kov being scummy about a page before this, not just when he was asked to put out a scumlist. Not to mention you're calling him scum for being suspicious of the same person you are. I just don't get it. Preview edit: Wait, Pie did point this out later on. You ignored it.

His two bandwagon votes are scummy as hell.

----

TO SUMMARIZE:

-Your case on Pie is pretty terrible. It almost looks like you have personal motives behind everything.. because nothing you posted is a scumtell. I'm pretty sure I debunked every point pretty easily (excluding the policy lynch one, I was pushing it there).
-You probably could've had a stronger case if you just said "I don't like the feel of his posts"
-The bandwagoning parts don't count because you were calling him scum way before he did that
-DH is scum pushing on townPie
-Yes, I realize I'm fucked if Pie's actually scum

---
Also, reading through all that helped me pick some small details. I keep finding new things.

The fact that Pie has used meta against me as a reason for suspicion, placing me in this top 5 scum candidates should probably qualify for a policy lynch right there.

Not a single person pointed this out. (Prev edit: nvm Pie did) Virtually the same post as Pie. Pie got wagoned immediately after he posted about a policy lynch, Fugi got put on everyone's town list.

[TheLonging]

Pie; scumreads change over time.

...over the course of 10 hours/26 posts? And I made only one post during this time?

To be honest, I was expecting you to argue that I am still scum and "bussing my buddy". Instead, you just went ahead and did a total 180 on your view of me.

I don't get it.

Actually you missed the entire point of that post

[TheLonging]

Meh this game is losing interest to me, with what us still being on D1. If tomorrow we're still making noise I'll do something.

[ready2rock]

At least you don't have a post restriction.

[TheLonging]

Oh you.