Scummies Invitational (OVER!!!)

[Ojanen]

would you mind if I answered the last question? (if it is your point to show I'm not playing "fair")

That wasn't my point. I'm interested in Kinetic's position for an application of his mindset to grasp him better and I don't find myko vs. ckd black&white. I don't necessarily agree with his tell since my own observation as scum has been that staying consciously extremely reasonable is a nice shield. Of course you can answer anyway if you want.

[Patrick]

Votecount

Hoopla (2) -- Incognito, Empking
Empking (2) -- q21, Kinetic
vollkan (2) -- Tenchi, populartajo
curiouskarmadog (4) -- vollkan, mykonian, imaginality, Kmd4390
Tenchi (3) -- SpyreX, Hoopla, Ojanen

Not voting -- Slicey, curiouskarmadog
15 alive, 8 to lynch.

[mykonian]

In that case I'll leave it

I do agree with you though. As scum you can't really get away with a lot of overreaching. This has a reason, as overreaching very quickly makes the discussion a mess, and town really doesn't want that.

[SpyreX]

Myko:

However, can you give me the short and sweet on Tenchi and your thoughts that way? Tenchi CKD twofer? Mmmm

[Patrick]

In response to a prod Slicey has told me he's V/LA until Monday. I'll replace him if he doesn't post very soon after returning.

[Tenchi]

Vote: Spyrex.

His answers were too serious.

WTH.

I'm just saying that I'm immediately distrustful of her intentions with respect to these questions since they're going to take awhile for everyone to answer, they most likely have to be answered in a WoW format which makes people not wanna read the thread anymore, and they could potentially slow the game down, which would benefit her if she's scum.

It seems to me that Q1 and Q3 are relevant questions that we would be discussing today anyhow, whether in this format or otherwise; 2 and 5 are also arguably useful, and only 4 could be considered distracting fluff.

And it's not like we need to wait around for everyone to answer before getting Hoopla's permission to proceed with the game...

Sums up my sentiments about the questions. I do think that the ideas presented especially for the how to tackle the ideal D1 lynches useful.

I do think we should have two D1 lynches. Lynching is the only weapon we have. And I do think less NKs for scum the better.

At this point I read Mykonian's post 99 and I do agree that CKD's reactive playstyle post is scummy.

I will vote CKD if I need to be.

FoS: CKD

Myk make somes good points and CKD is definitely doing some misrepresentation with regards to Myk but Hoopla is still by far the scummier of the two.

I don't see why Hoopla would be scummier at this point. His and Incognito's argument at the beginning is geniune and I do think the survey got discussion started.

well if there is going to be a lynch Day 1, it might as well be mine, you are going to be embarassed at the end of it, mykonian, curious what was your scummie for?

Useless prevocation.

Myko:

However, can you give me the short and sweet on Tenchi and your thoughts that way? Tenchi CKD twofer? Mmmm

Not with me in it, no.

At this point I am concerned by the overwhelming scent of lurkiness in the thread. More posts from the ff pls kthx:

imaginality
Empking
q21
Slicey

[vollkan]

I do not know why you would counter Incognito's argument of using the surveys as a distraction topic by countering with this comedic roleplay that you, as scum, would tell your scum buddies about your plan just to make Incognito's idea less plausible. I do not think this counter-argument from you makes his point less plausible.

Incognito's argument raised a legitimate issue, but one that was ultimately impossible to rule one way or the other on (ie. it's obvious that a survey could be used maliciously by scum, but it makes no sense to assume that). Hoopla cannot make Incognito's argument significantly less plausible, because Incognito raised an unfalsifiable possibility. But what Hoopla did do was show that the scum-logic that Incognito's argument required is fairly tortuous - "Mwahaha, I will confound them with five simple questions" could only come from fairly incompetent scum. The argument was expressed unorthodoxly (ie roleplay), but if you were examining it properly rather than deriding it because of its form, the point is clear and, I think, strong.

That said Volk you raise some interesting points and then follow up with a throwaway vote? What up

None of the points I raised in relation to Hoopla resulted in me having suspicion such as might justify a serious early vote (at least until Hoopla answers my question), so I figured I may as well RV as normal. (I don't like RVS, but it's the worst way of starting a game except for all the others, and

sometimes

it works as a springboard.)

Now you are talking yourself into it.

You dislike RVS
Hoopla clearly creates a way to escape RVS
You

comment

on it.

and random vote anyway? Esspecially the incredibily effective (and discussion generating) OMGUS random vote!

I can't see your point at all.

You seem to be assuming, without any apparent basis, that because I commented on something non-RV-related, it thereby became illegitimate to RV. But, at a point in time when I hadn't any actual suspicion formed and when there was nothing preventing me from RVing (ie. Hoopla's survey occurring was not incompatible with RVS also occuring), it was perfectly legitimate for me to RV as well as engage with Hoopla's survey. Sure, my RV will be (and, in hindsight,

was

since RV stage has now passed,

Unvote

, ) ineffective, but you've failed to explain at all why that is relevant.

Or, to condense everything down into a simple question: In one sentence, what did I do that was scummy?

Town read question? Check.

What's wrong with questioning town reads?

Survey, humourous roleplay rather than defence

See above on Tenchi on this point.

Will continue catching up soon...

[Incognito]

All right. So I'm catching up where I left off (page 2).

I don't really get Tenchi's vote on vollkan back in his post 43; he ends up voting him using "shiny wagon" as the reasoning, which seems joke-y especially with the exclamation point at the end, but I don't get why he specifically chose to wagon vollkan as opposed to one of the other viable wagons. Tenchi, was there some additional reasoning behind your vote? Did vollkan do something that struck you as scummier than any of the other wagon options?

I kinda liked Hoopla's post 44; her final conclusion about lynching one person during Day 1 and possibly lynching higher numbers on subsequent Days makes a lot of sense to me. And the speculation about the one-shot role thing seems mildly townish too. I personally don't know what to think of the role, though I could follow Hoopla's frame of thought and understand why she thinks it could be scum-sided. Post 47, on the other hand, is a pretty blatant strawman of my argument. Why would the tactic of clogging the thread with a questionairre necessarily need to be discussed in a QuickTopic before the game as some kind of strategy? I think it's equally as likely that a her-scum could have just done it completely on her own. Anywho, I'm gonna

unvote

because 44 seemed like a pretty good post to me.



On to page 3...

I don't see why mykonian seems so anti-Tenchi but yet he didn't vote him. That also calls Kmd's "myko is obvtown" comment into question. I don't have a problem with Tenchi questioning Hoopla's poptajo read; I'd say the only thing I didn't like about Tenchi on page 2 was the stuff I mentioned above (the half serious/half joking wagon vote on vollkan). Hmmm, but then there's this:

Right now, I am assuming all this declarations (you and Spyrex, maybe more?) are from meta reads which I am strongly distasteful about.

Why do you find this to be distasteful?

TBH, I was also surprised Incognito was the first nonconformist. For some reason, I think he is not an agressive guy, have we played together before?. Incog, would you define your town playstyle as agressive?

Yep. I'm much more passive as scum. You might remember us playing together way back in Mini 594 - Portal Mafia.



Onto page 4...

Disingenious and a bit overly paranoid in tone; as if acting. Time will tell if just RVS mood but minus.

No. Why do you think it's acting?

Aside from that, I liked the observation that Ojanen made in this post with respect to ckd though.

mykonian is probably town. His case on ckd doesn't really seem scum-motivated to me, but I disagree with the conclusion. I currently don't think ckd is scum here.



Anywho, I'm pretty much caught up to this point. As of now, I'm not feeling the vollkan or ckd wagons. The Tenchi wagon seems to be the best out of all of the current wagons right now, but I'm more interested in something else...

I haven't liked a thing Kinetic has written so far. His first "real" post seems like a whole lot of noise since it's merely a summary of all of his experiences with all of the players. He describes it as getting his meta experience out of the way just in case he needs to call on it later, but I'm not sure I buy that explanation - it's not like Kinetic went into elaborate detail about each and every person he's played with so far; he kept things pretty vague, imo. He's didn't bother to comment on a thing that's happened here so far in that post, and he certainly hasn't seemed to do so in his subsequent posts either. And I reeeeeeeeeeally don't like the policy lynch vote on Empking - I disagree completely that Empking will become a "distraction as town" - it's not like we're completely unable to prod and probe the guy and ask him questions about his stances - and slipping by as scum? How exactly would that happen?

vote: Kinetic

[mykonian]

That said Volk you raise some interesting points and then follow up with a throwaway vote? What up

None of the points I raised in relation to Hoopla resulted in me having suspicion such as might justify a serious early vote (at least until Hoopla answers my question), so I figured I may as well RV as normal. (I don't like RVS, but it's the worst way of starting a game except for all the others, and

sometimes

it works as a springboard.)

Now you are talking yourself into it.

You dislike RVS
Hoopla clearly creates a way to escape RVS
You

comment

on it.

and random vote anyway? Esspecially the incredibily effective (and discussion generating) OMGUS random vote!

I can't see your point at all.

You seem to be assuming, without any apparent basis, that because I commented on something non-RV-related, it thereby became illegitimate to RV. But, at a point in time when I hadn't any actual suspicion formed and when there was nothing preventing me from RVing (ie. Hoopla's survey occurring was not incompatible with RVS also occuring), it was perfectly legitimate for me to RV as well as engage with Hoopla's survey. Sure, my RV will be (and, in hindsight,

was

since RV stage has now passed,

Unvote

, ) ineffective, but you've failed to explain at all why that is relevant.

Or, to condense everything down into a simple question: In one sentence, what did I do that was scummy?

You stated you didn't like random votes. (see above), but still you

chose

to random vote. Can't be because you liked them, so you would have to have a reason for that.

Now, as towny I can't understand that reason. As scum this would gain you another post without any new information (this being the second you gained with it).

Could you give me another reason why a towny that dislikes random voting would random vote while there were alternatives?

[mykonian]

sorry, forgot to add this:

Myko:

However, can you give me the short and sweet on Tenchi and your thoughts that way? Tenchi CKD twofer? Mmmm

What I told you already. I haven't got any news (you'll get it if I find it), and on this moment Tenchi is on the scummy side of the game. On this moment I haven't yet made a ranking or something like that. Mostly I'm making some cases where I can, get some discussion going and review what I did later this day.

So basically, I have to answer your question with: "no"

[Empking]

I do not know why you would counter Incognito's argument of using the surveys as a distraction topic by countering with this comedic roleplay that you, as scum, would tell your scum buddies about your plan just to make Incognito's idea less plausible. I do not think this counter-argument from you makes his point less plausible.

Incognito's argument raised a legitimate issue, but one that was ultimately impossible to rule one way or the other on (ie. it's obvious that a survey could be used maliciously by scum, but it makes no sense to assume that). Hoopla cannot make Incognito's argument significantly less plausible, because Incognito raised an unfalsifiable possibility. But what Hoopla did do was show that the scum-logic that Incognito's argument required is fairly tortuous - "Mwahaha, I will confound them with five simple questions" could only come from fairly incompetent scum. The argument was expressed unorthodoxly (ie roleplay), but if you were examining it properly rather than deriding it because of its form, the point is clear and, I think, strong.

Any argument can be refuted by a humourous roleplay. Its the last resort of the people that are in the wrong. The facts of the matter is that it doesn't require any tortuous scum-logic. All it requires is that scum want to do something that benefits them with no real lasting disadvantages.

[q21]

In other news, both hoops and myko are obvtown and shouldnt be lynched ever. Voting for one of these guys is now considered a scumtell.

I find this to be an unnaturally overt and definite statement for this early in the game, therefore, to test it a little I'm going to:

Vote Mykonian

And see what sort of response that evokes. I've chosen Myko because I feel his ckd case is a little overdone, possibly him trying too hard to paint scum where its not.

[mykonian]

unvote vote Q21

[Incognito]

q21, why vote for the person who "benefited" from the statement rather than the person who made the statement in the first place when your issue seems to be with the statement-maker?

[mykonian]

damn, q21 left already.

The most important point to make about Q21's post is:

that is not the way to make a "test vote" to see how someone reacts. You want to keep them guessing about the reason, and you certainly don't want them to know it is a test vote. Q21 was way to cautious.

To react on Incog: Q21 is clearly testing if Tajo can actually stick with his statement that he considers everybody who votes for me or hoopla scummy. Now, this is of course a very bold statement, but you'd have to ask what good would come from doubting this. Q21, in this case, isn't scumhunting, he is trying to argue that someone elses reads aren't that definate. This is an easy statement to make, since nothing is that clear in mafia, and certainly not on page 6. Q21 could have used his time better with getting some reads of his own.

unvote vote CKD

[q21]

Actually, Myk, that post wasn't to test pop's response. You're right, if it was I did it badly - completely gave the game away. It was to test yours. I had a slight scum read on you for the ckd case that I disagree with (as stated with my vote) and was looking for a way to either strengthen or weaken that. The knee-jerk OMGUS vote strengthens it.

unvote vote Q21

[Incognito]

So... what

do

you think of pops?

[imaginality]

Actually, Myk, that post wasn't to test pop's response. You're right, if it was I did it badly - completely gave the game away. It was to test yours.

If that's true, why all the waffle about testing pop's response? You could simply have voted Mykonian and seen how he responded. This sounds a bit like you backpedalling about your reason for the vote.


On a different note:

I do think we should have two D1 lynches. Lynching is the only weapon we have. And I do think less NKs for scum the better.

It's not quite as simple as that. Two lynches per day vs one per day gives scum fewer NKs. But it could be two D1 lynches and two D2 lynches, versus one D1 lynch and three D2 lynches, for example, or three D1 and one D2. All of those give scum the same number of NKs, but which is best for us is a situational judgment.

[Slicey]

Alright, sorry for not posting in forever. I'd just like to note that it's very difficult for me to post on weekends, not until Sunday night (around the time I'm making this post).

I'm curious as to why no one has commented on KMD. He has been kinda vote hopping (Hoopla to vollkan to CKD). He hasn't provided any reason why he's voted for any of these players or why he thinks they're scummy, other than giving a pretty weak reason why Hoopla's survey was bad. He hasn't explained ANY of his reads and is just playing very lazy, looking to be lazy scum. Also he thinks Hoopla is scum and I think Hoopla is more town than anyone else. That survey helped us get out of the RVS. It didn't create any noise. It has helped people form stances such as who is for and against the survey, just to cite one example.

Vote: KMD

Also completely agree with what Incognito wrote about Kinetic. He hasn't commented on anything really pertaining to the game, such as vollkan, Tenchi, myko v. CKD etc. while still posting. Definitely second on my scum list.

SpyreX is actually worrying me a little bit too, nothing I can put my finger on. Just gut really. Might be the first time ever I don't automatically think you're town XD

vollkan 'wagon' is terribad, see absolutely nothing in it. As of now, Myko v. CKD just looks like two townies fighting. Tenchi I'm unsure of. Leaning town right now.

[Ojanen]

Actually, Myk, that post wasn't to test pop's response. You're right, if it was I did it badly - completely gave the game away. It was to test yours. I had a slight scum read on you for the ckd case that I disagree with (as stated with my vote) and was looking for a way to either strengthen or weaken that.

The knee-jerk OMGUS vote strengthens it.

This post by q21 is scummy.
The description of mykonian's instant no explanation vote as knee-jerk omgus assumes mykonian to be an idiot barely able to control his actions at all. That is not an accurate nor a townish assumption. mykonian was obviously looking for a reaction in a way that has some chance of having effect, (or pretending to do so if he was scum), contrary to q21's "hi this vote is because I want to see a reaction" (whether he would have been looking for a reaction from tajo or myko, saying that one is looking for a reaction pretty much collapses the wave).
Labeling the reaction as knee-jerk omgus is hitting an easy buzzword that only someone thinking of the game very shallowly would use in this instance. I find it hard to believe q21 is sincere about scumhunting here.

unvote
vote: q21

[Ojanen]

And by collapsing the wave I mean it nullifies the reaction by making it deliberate.
Yeah, that's more concisely what I mean, q21 presenting myko's vote as not deliberate.

[Hoopla]

Post 47, on the other hand, is a pretty blatant strawman of my argument. Why would the tactic of clogging the thread with a questionairre necessarily need to be discussed in a QuickTopic before the game as some kind of strategy? I think it's equally as likely that a her-scum could have just done it completely on her own. Anywho, I'm gonna

unvote

because 44 seemed like a pretty good post to me.

If you think it's equally likely that I'd have done this as scum or town, why did you criticise me with such conviction that it was a scum tactic? You barely considered any town motivation for me to do this, which makes this explanation feel like a contradiction or at least a misrepresentation of what he was actually saying.

Thank you for agreeing with my theory about the game in post 44, but I am going to call you out on it, because I still don't think you are being honest with your intentions. You're unvoting me on the basis of theory talk, when you were attacking me for something non-theory. It looks more like you are now searching for a different reason to unvote me, rather than bring to light your attack on me was ill-conceived or exaggerated. You partially backed down, by claiming it was 'equally likely' for me to do it as scum or town, but it really strikes me the wrong way that you would seriously vote based on

that

, given what you say about it now. I don't think you'd be this stubborn as town. And I don't think your intentions to begin with and/or now make sense as town, because it looks like you're just casually trying to sweep it under the rug.

Unvote, vote: Incognito

I'm not usually a gut player, but he is very phony this game.

[mykonian]

Actually, Myk, that post wasn't to test pop's response. You're right, if it was I did it badly - completely gave the game away. It was to test yours. I had a slight scum read on you for the ckd case that I disagree with (as stated with my vote) and was looking for a way to either strengthen or weaken that.

The knee-jerk OMGUS vote strengthens it.

This post by q21 is scummy.
The description of mykonian's instant no explanation vote as knee-jerk omgus assumes mykonian to be an idiot barely able to control his actions at all. That is not an accurate nor a townish assumption. mykonian was obviously looking for a reaction in a way that has some chance of having effect, (or pretending to do so if he was scum), contrary to q21's "hi this vote is because I want to see a reaction" (whether he would have been looking for a reaction from tajo or myko, saying that one is looking for a reaction pretty much collapses the wave).
Labeling the reaction as knee-jerk omgus is hitting an easy buzzword that only someone thinking of the game very shallowly would use in this instance. I find it hard to believe q21 is sincere about scumhunting here.

unvote
vote: q21

QFT.

Esspecially since I explained my vote in the next post and went back to my original case.

Q21 reaction (OMGUS!) is twisting what was going on, assumes I'm a fool (while he knows I'm not: he was the one nominating me for this scummy) etc. It makes no sense. Unless you are scum and you hope the word "OMGUS" is going to convince people.

unvote vote Q21

[Empking]

Actually, Myk, that post wasn't to test pop's response. You're right, if it was I did it badly - completely gave the game away. It was to test yours. I had a slight scum read on you for the ckd case that I disagree with (as stated with my vote) and was looking for a way to either strengthen or weaken that. The knee-jerk OMGUS vote strengthens it.

unvote vote Q21

BS

Unvote

Vote: q21

[Kmd4390]

Dammit! Was just catching up on my games and when I got to this one, my girlfriend texted me wanting to go see a movie. I'll get to this when I can.