Mini 1005: Mafiaphobes! (Game over)

[vezokpiraka]

I am a town watcher. You know what this role does.
I watched Oso last night. I don't want to reveal results because it won't benefit the town at all.
I didn't bread crumb the role because I was afraid the scum might try to NK me and I hate getting NKed in games.

[vezokpiraka]

EBWOP:
I will tell my results but only if three people agree on this.
Diddin doesn't count for the purpose of this.

[Tazaro]

I'm the 1st person to agree to seeing your results.

[vezokpiraka]

People who want me to claim results: [1/3] Tazaro
People who don't want me to claim results: [0/3]

[Sotty7]

Claim your results.

[vezokpiraka]

People who want me to claim results: [2/3] Tazaro , Sotty7
People who don't want me to claim results: [0/3]

[Sotty7]

And you hit it on the head, there is zero amount of trust in the neighbors night thread but alot of that can be logged off to Poirot not having access/limited access during the night and we were minus the third neighbor but I got a generally positive feeling from diddin. He didn't seem to be cadging or evasive or manipulative in anything we talked about. Didn't try to hatch any plots is what I'm saying.

The only thing that struck me as off is that he asked if we should hide our neighbor status if forced to RC. But seeing as how we are a group, even if unconfirmed with each other, not so much off that it worries me too much. The 'semi-informed minority' is a cool thing and it's natural to want to conceal that where possible.

Unvote

Okay this is what I was looking for, you seem to trust him, if only a little bit so I am willing to swallow that. With his claim and no counter, it makes the most sense to me that he protected me from a kill and so is probably telling the truth.

= = = = = =

What is scummy about Tazaro independent of vezo?

Obvious I hated Tazaro's hammer as he just came by and said "Oh, here's the hammer even thought I know the person is probably going to flip town.". Even if it's close to the deadline, a person who genuinely thought he was scummy should have hammered, not a person who has no opinion on anyone's alignment.

His justification for his hammer on quadz08 is very weak. He tries to use static to determind that it will most likely be a mislynch, which is a given since after all, Mafia is a game of the uninformed majority trying to get rid of the informed majority. However, when it comes to scum hunting, static and evidence supporting scummy behavior do not mix with each other. Him treating it as an informational lynch isn't a much better reason either as every lynch we should attempt to hit scum and we cannot afford to lynch someone purely for information.

He suggested that since mislynches usually happen Day 1, we should think that we got a mislynch coming. I really dislike this mentality. Town should never treat Day 1 as a probable mislynch Day, they should put forth all efforts toward finding scums on that day just like in later days, less information or not.

Tazaro's play is scummy independent of vezokpiraka's alignment. He'll look a lot worse if vezokpiraka flips scum.

This is all well and good if Tazaro was in the game since the start. He wasn't. He came in and hammered right near the deadline, no matter how you try and spin this it isn't scummy. There were no other viable wagons, little to no time to push anyone else up what did you expect him to do? I have also explained why the hammer isn't scummy during my discussion with Oso, what do you think of that?

I think you are pushing a very weak case here. His fluff posting his scummy, his not reading the game is scummy and these are things you don't even mention. The hammer is probably the one thing that isn't scummy about his play so far.

= = = = = =

Won't lie, I kinda skimmed Humble's big post on Ara. I'll come back to that later.

My vote would be on vezo right now. Waiting on him to finish his claim. No idea why he hasn't just freaking claimed his results right away. When you claim, this is what you DO. Feels like stalling.

[Tazaro]

People who don't want me to claim results: [0/3]

This

wasn't part of the deal. It was supposed to be at least 3 people agreeing regardless of whether it just three.

[vezokpiraka]

Ah screw it. I will claim anyway. Now I am just more suspicious of you and Sotty.

Like I said I am a watcher. If I would have found something like 2 person both targetting Oso I would have told at the beginning of the day. This will just out a PR. KageLord targetted Oso at night.

[Tazaro]

So KageLord did something, and diddin claimed to do something. These two can easily be theorized as planning this in their conversing with each other at night... again, KageLord and diddin, that's my tag team of scumminess.

Vote: diddin

[Tazaro]

Double post: By the way, claim KageLord, you've been outed. And it's interesting you targetted diddin's neighbor Oso.

[KageLord]

I will wait and see what other people say first. If it seems the majority of people want me to claim, I will. If not, I'll keep it a secret for now. All that is known is that I'm a town PR (there are a bunch of those) or a scum RB (though I don't see why a scum RB would pick Oso over the softclaimed vezok). I'm pretty sure that fully revealing myself here would not help the town, though it may be of

some

use to do so on a later day.

Anyway, since I'm pretty sure that Mafia Watcher is a very uncommon role, if ever used, I'll

unvote

[Tazaro]

since I'm pretty sure that Mafia Watcher is a very uncommon role, if ever used, I'll

unvote

Is it any more uncommon than town jailkeeper? Unvoting vezo, I see. And I'm very much seeing a KageLord and diddin night one discussion in the mix of this Oso-targetting that was done by KageLord.

[KageLord]

since I'm pretty sure that Mafia Watcher is a very uncommon role, if ever used, I'll

unvote

Is it any more uncommon than town jailkeeper? Unvoting vezo, I see. And I'm very much seeing a KageLord and diddin night one discussion in the mix of this Oso-targetting that was done by KageLord.

Yeah, I would say it is actually. Out of the 6 or so games I have seen (not including this one obviously), I have seen a town jailkeeper in one and mafia watcher in none. Although, I will admit that this is a very limited test sample. So if I'm wrong about that, then I urge someone to correct me. But I'm surprised that you're the one doing it. You never seemed to approve of my case on vezok and have been constantly asserting your belief vezok is VI, but now that I've unvoted, my premise is flawed?

And there's no real way (one that doesn't involve a bunch of speculation) for anyone to defend against an accusation like that. But okay, if you have that opinion, what do you think my role is? If me and diddin are scumbuddies, any thoughts on why we would decide to target him and what role we could have used to target but not kill him? Also, why not target the softclaimed vezok if it's an RB or similar?

[KageLord]

Double post: Actually, after looking both roles up on the mafiascum wiki, they are both listed as only pro-town in their alignments (which was my point). And it does make a good deal of sense. I don't know why there would be a scum jailkeeper since, for them, a roleblocker (and optional no-kill) would be the same thing. That's why diddin's not automatically cleared even though his claim does sort of fit with what happened in the game. There is still the possibility that he somehow planned to "be forced to" claim and that's why scum no-killed. But, for now, I think I'll look at it as if he was telling the truth.

[Tazaro]

You'd look bad with still having a vote on vezo if people came to believing him. And it doesn't matter if you are saying you are changing your mind about vezo if you're mafia. I have no idea what your PM said you are able to do, but it's possible that either you or KageLord are a MAFIA jailkeeper (which is a possible role) or you could just be mafia that have the power to nightkill. Another thing is, diddin was seemingly trying to posture himself to try to attack the good standing of one of his neighbors, Poirot, so targetting the other neighbor Oso with a nightkill and flipping him as town makes Poirot more likely to be seen as scum.

[Aranneas]

Alright, so two things before I break it down point by point. These are important. I will probably mention both of them again.

1.) I made a severe misplay. I gave the statements made by my predecessor in this role far too much credit. In my mind they were given as much or more weight than I might a note leaver role or something along those lines. Basically, I allowed the now famous post to fester in my mind until it became a real weight on me. I set out here to either prove or disprove it. Most likely not the best way I could have gone about it.
2.) I do not have any interest in having anyone lynched, except as far as I think they are scum. This will be addressed again later. Keep it in mind.

Read it closely Aranneas.

On the quote from my predecessor that's getting tossed around a bit: it's been bugging me as well, I will say that much.

Bugging you how?

He obviously got a very strong read out of something the man put up.

Did he now? What EXACTLY gives you the impression he had a strong read against friend/me. He

hardclaimed

a role and asked for protection. He apparently claimed a day actioning role with knowledge of scum. He said 100 %.

What gave me this impression, exactly, is the fact that he did not have any such information which came from anything outside of the day thread. Thus he wasn't really claiming anything, except potentially as a stunt to hopefully get a reaction. I did not come to this conclusion.

If you're not claiming anything it's because you do not possess such certainty. Therefore, the whole thing is moot.

Currently, agreed. At the time I hadn't taken the thought process to this conclusion.

I've been digging through his ISO and I think I may know what it is, though whether or not I share his opinion is still in question

Funny. Because Jay's wasn't an opinion. It was a borderline (bullshit) claim.

leaning towards yes, however, contingent on his responses to the following.

No, no no... Jay needed no responses from me. He said I was scum. Period.

And I gave this more attention than it deserved.

You're pretending to carry a torch of suspicion when Jay never did such thing. He just CLAIMED that I was scum.

I would appreciate it if you did not attempt tell me what I'm thinking. My suspicions may have been unjustified, they may have been idiotic, and they may have been wrong. But you have not looked inside my head so you cannot tell me that they did not exist.

The possibility of a lyncher is starting to really form.

Given what you've seen, an understandable position. Luckily it doesn't matter to me. I'll get to why this is so after I finish with the rest of this.

Let's see what your reasons for "leaning towards yes" are...

q21

started mild and is getting into the game. I dislike his defense/attack on xvart, which appears to me as if he was accusing whoever questions his motives.

Lets analyse the responses to that self vote... 9 out of 11 players other than myself moved on without so much as a comment (maybe they laughed, maybe they didn't; I don't know, I don't have little cameras at everyone's computers to see if they're laughing). 2 out of eleven people called me out for it. Even if neither you not SSBF are scum, those numbers still prove that most townies paid it very little mind.

So... What's the relevance of this? What do you gain?

What do you think was gained by this statement? Perhaps it was simply a throwaway statement; perhaps there was an actual agenda behind it. I don't believe you have no opinion on the topic, however, especially since you're the one that called attention to it. The fact that whatever you may be thinking, you keep it back... I dunt liek sekerts.

I'm trying to read people by asking questions. I gain insight. What on earth do you mean by "agenda behind it"? It's hard to understand what's your point. Is it because I didn't reask him a question he didn't answer? If it's that, I just missed it like I miss so much of the questions people ignore (vezok is a great example, Tazaro is another). Even though I may forget things my posts are always useful to remember what I noted.

Fair, and I made too much out of something that was practically non-existent.

I call bull here. Has anyone actually clicked the link? What about that post smacks of 'lacking conviction'? I'm having trouble seeing it and am hoping someone could elaborate for me.

You call bull??? Ok. I'll just post quadz post again:

Ok, I've now done a re-read of the whole thread. woooooo! Dang, we spent a long time arguing about Tasky's questions. Ugh.

My number one suspect right now is SSBF. First and foremost is this:

Defending people is a scum tell, period.

This is part of his ISO #9. To me, what this statement boils down to is that if a player has a reasonable point saying that a player is not scum (or may not be scum, or whatever), he shouldn't bring it up if that person is thought to be scummy. That makes no sense to me. "Gee, I have this opinion that, if brought up, may keep us from lynching a townie. But that's a no-no! Only scum defend people!" I just don't see how forcing out opinions is pro-town in any way.

There is also this (found in his ISO #8):

Absolutely hate this. I see absolutely no purpose of that self-vote, especially since we're already getting something to work on in this game.

SSBF made a pretty big deal about what was clearly a jokey vote. Like someone (diddin, maybe?) said earlier, it seems like he's grasping at straws. Yes, we were in the serious stage. But come on, it's a game, dangit! Let a man make a dumb joke. It meant nothing and did no harm to scumhunting. Not worth the attention it's gotten.

I also have an eye on KageLord, xvart, and vezok, but nobody has really exhibited any huge scumtells that I've seen. SSBF seems to me the wisest D1 lynch, at this point.

A)He votes him for one phrase that SSBF "shouldn't" say.
b)He says SSBF is grasping at straws for taking a jokey vote seriously
C) He says he has his eye in more people (kagelord appears for the first time)
D) He calls SSBF the "wisest" lynch but doesn't say anything else.
Addendum: He didn't push SSBF later (claiming he was "waiting for more scumtelles to show up")
I hope that was elaborate enough.

Is it the fact that he voted for the guy? (sarcasm, for the tone reading impaired) Because that's about as much conviction as it's possible to convey in this game, short of an investigation claim.

You think you're being sarcastic? You're being purposely blind.

You think quadz showed equal or more conviction than xvart?

I won't be responding to the 'purposely blind' comment. I will agree with you on the last part, in retrospect.

It's a mafia discussion that pertains directly to what's going on in the thread. You've stated an opinion based on your interpretation of apparent emotional context, but you haven't backed it up with anything. I would like to hear the deeper thought process behind this.

No. Seriously, No. Don't lie so much in one paragraph. You're the one who isn't backing up things and just throwing words around. Read my ISO with a clear head instead of looking for reasons to support what you say was jay's suspicion. I explained many times how and why quadz was mild.

Read the game. You haven't talked about anything related to it. It's plain that after Oso asked you about Jay's crazy accusation and dissapearance you only ISO'd me to see what you could say against me.

You're ignoring everything about quadz and xvart and vezok and everoyne that happened during day 1 because you don't know about it.

Actually, no, but thanks for trying. I particularly appreciate your trying to peek into my head again, and apparently back in time as well. I wasn't purposely ignoring anything. I was leaving it aside for the time being. Not the best strategic choice. For reference, I read the entire game thread three times before I actually replaced in. I've gone through every single iso, backwards and forwards, multiple times. Did it come through? Obviously not. I focused my attention on you. For stupid reasons, but still. Don't tell me I haven't put in the work, because I have. I have several things about day one running through my mind. And I will get to all of them in due time.

He doesn't stick to the known bandwagon and tries instead to dig into the motivation behind the post. This is normally a very good thing. Unfortunately, it doesn't come off sincere to me here. You imply (and explicitly state) scumminess without really telling us why. Now I use gut reads as much as the next guy, potentially more than some of the mafiaborgs you have around here; but when the man flips town, it does not end up reflecting well on you. You need to be prepared to either chin up and take the suspicion that follows, or explain further. I would greatly prefer the latter.

No. This is NOT happening. You're telling ME to avoid using gut reads? REad the game. Read about Oso and me. Read the game.

This is all fine from my perspective, especially in light of the diddin issues that came up later on which I've commented on (which I will update in a separate post, since this one looks hella long in preview). However, there is one slight problem: you never followed up on any of this. As town it's somewhat excusable; you simply found better reads and decided to stick with those.

Great! You CAN think for yourself. Tell me if at any time, you think I stopped scumhunting because who I wanted was getting lynched.

Personally I would try not leave such things aside until I acquired enough information that I was satisfied, but that may just be a playstyle difference, I don't know.

sure, although you do leave AN ENTIRE GAME aside to make this lame ISO attack.

You don't look like you knew the context of anything outside My ISO.

Again, from your view, a fair perspective. I will make the distinction that it was intended to be on a temporary basis. Again, not the best decision.

Vezok has my potential vote if I can't get a quadz lynch. So for all intents and purposes Vezok and Kagelord are tied. If someone chooses to vote, they can't claim it's because someone has got the lead or any other excuse.

Has anyone mentioned this before? If so, please speak up. You imply negative connotations for quadz's voting pattern, and in the next line of the same post say that you're prepared to do the exact same thing to ensure a lynch of someone you think is scummy.

No. No. No. You're getting on my nerves. I showed what was scummy about vezok and I showed was was scummy about quadz. They were second and first on my list and I tried to lynch the first. If I couldn't, I'd accept lynching the second

AS OPPOSED TO KAGELORD who at the time was tied and then first in the votecount but, of course, you wouldn't know anything about that since you didn't read anything but my ISO

.

And I fundamentally don't see what the difference is between this and what quadz was doing. He had two suspects. He couldn't lynch one. He switched to the second.

See above where I state that I did actually read the rest of the game.

This is one of the most blatant hypocritical contradictions I've seen and makes me more uncomfortable than anything else you've written. The problem continues below in a more in-depth discussion of Kage's reaction to the same.

No, this is one of your more farfetched lies to date and I'm really angry about it.

The only reasonable explanation I can find for such poor lies is that you're a desperate lyncher.

As scum OR town that post is a disgrace for the game.

Not a lie if I think it's true. Your anger is fair and I apologize for causing it. I'd like to see you actually address this point if you don't mind. Agree on the disgrace bit in retrospect.

To top it off, he continued to use this argument against quads right up until he gets lynched, and no-one called him on it (if I missed someone who did, I apologize). Is anyone getting good vibes off this in context?

yara, yara... you keep saying that I'm wrong without talking about why and where but, to give you credit, this time you realize THERE IS a context (which you don't care to read, surprisingly...)

I could have added one more quote to my wall. Do you really think it would have made a difference here?

This is all fine as a defense in normal circumstances; except for the fact that you're responding to what you see as an appeal to emotion with emotionally charged language. Will someone play a really fast game of word association with me? I say 'fanatic'. What are the first three words that pop into your head?

If you had planned to play the 'logic vs instinct' card, you're kind of circumventing your own argument here. On it's own I would just say you probably just got carried away with your argument and didn't think too much of it. In light of my suspicions above I'm less inclined to let it slide.

blah blah blah. You HAD to say something about it even though you're not to sure what to say. Actually, this shows that you wrote this post as you read my ISO, otherwise, you wouldn't have brought the whole point about gut earlier. Which shows you know squat about the game. Which shows that post wins the records for amount of lies in one post".

Congratulations!

Again with the...
Alright I'm just not going to talk about it when you call me a liar after this point again. I did allow myself to be deceived, misdirected, and sent on a wild goose chase. By someone who's not even in the game anymore. I did not lie. Maybe they're the same thing to you, I don't know. To me that is an important distinction.

Summary/conclusion: His manner of play makes me nervous from his opening post. He does make strong points and logical conclusions a good portion of the time, but I cant't help but be scratching my head at some of the apparent throwaway reads he puts in. Would reeeally like to hear from him on this, because if he is town he may be one of our biggest assets and I'd like to get this stuff out of the way asap.

Oh no you didn't. After throwing crap at me for every detail without caring about context or about making sense, not even having read the game... You come and say that I "throwaway my reads"? Where does that leave the rest of the players?

It was hyperbole. In retrospect, poorly used. One throwaway read. The first quote. Which we've talked about.

As a bonus, you completely ignored one of the sentences that actually end up mattering. "I'd like to get this stuff out of the way asap" was not just some flowery wording. I mentioned it previously, but I really did just want to get this out of the way. So we can get back to playing the game. I had let jay's post get to me, but if you logically defended against anything I could come up with what reason could I have to suspect you?

And this brings me back to the point of the lyncher accusation. Untrue, but it fundamentally

does not matter

. You can believe it all you like. There would only be an issue if actually believed you to be scum. Lyncher is still a townie. If I have no reason to play to the wincon you believe me to have, I have no reason not to play the game as one.

In five words:
I just can't believe it.

Nice Big Fos: Aran

Granted. Several hundred times over.

[diddin]

Ah screw it. I will claim anyway. Now I am just more suspicious of you and Sotty.

Like I said I am a watcher. If I would have found something like 2 person both targetting Oso I would have told at the beginning of the day. This will just out a PR. KageLord targetted Oso at night.

Who was the other person who targetted Oso? For all we know, you may have outed Kage and the other person who visited Oso is scum.

[Tazaro]

He was saying IF he would have found 2 people he would have told at the beginning of the day. He didn't tell at the beginning of the day; he just found ONE P.R.

[diddin]

Ah, ok.

unvote

Vote'll probably be going to vezo or Kage depending on a KageLord claim.

[Oso]

Go to bed and see what happens.

I think vezo is saying that only KG targeted me right vezo? If it had been 2 then I take it vezo would have started the day claiming and showing results?

@KG, I don't see how giving any results could hurt me or town. I think you should go ahead and claim. But if you want to hold off and give a few more people an chance to chime in that is fine by me. I have to go back to Poirot's post from last night and read from there again. A lot was posted in 8 or so hours.

[KageLord]

You'd look bad with still having a vote on vezo if people came to believing him. And it doesn't matter if you are saying you are changing your mind about vezo if you're mafia. I have no idea what your PM said you are able to do, but it's possible that either you or KageLord are a MAFIA jailkeeper (which is a possible role) or you could just be mafia that have the power to nightkill. Another thing is, diddin was seemingly trying to posture himself to try to attack the good standing of one of his neighbors, Poirot, so targetting the other neighbor Oso with a nightkill and flipping him as town makes Poirot more likely to be seen as scum.

So... if I am getting this right, your theory at the moment is that me and diddin are scumbuddies and I was targeting Oso with an NK to make him flip town and somehow put suspicion on Humble (who I've been agreeing with for the majority of his time in this game) instead of diddin, but something stopped me from an NK on Oso? I just want to get this straight before moving on...

[Tazaro]

You want me to agree with the fact that YOU were agreeing with Humble? So what? That's a red herring; I was talking about diddin's (not your) posturing to try to attack Humble on day two, which he quickly retracted and changed his purpose for rereading into reconfirming his town read on Humble. You could be the real MAFIA jailkeeper, KageLord, and targetting Oso would make sense since you may figure that he's a neighbor with a power role, and nightkilling Oso would make the neighbor count go down to two, and with Oso's flipping scum, Poirot could suspect diddin and target diddin with arguments and you guys would have no option to target Oso because you killed him. diddin's saying he has nothing on Poirot indicates that he cannot handle an argument from Poirot and counterargue. Poirot would win that argument and diddin would not fare well from that.

[Tazaro]

edit: with Oso's flipping TOWN. And it is clear that if someone else was targetted with a nightkill, that nightkill was roleblocked. How else would this someone be protected from a nightkill besides roleblocking or the mafia simply not choosing to do so?

[KageLord]

You'd look bad with still having a vote on vezo if people came to believing him. And it doesn't matter if you are saying you are changing your mind about vezo if you're mafia. I have no idea what your PM said you are able to do, but it's possible that either you or KageLord are a MAFIA jailkeeper (which is a possible role) or you could just be mafia that have the power to nightkill. Another thing is, diddin was seemingly trying to posture himself to try to attack the good standing of one of his neighbors, Poirot, so targetting the other neighbor Oso with a nightkill and flipping him as town makes Poirot more likely to be seen as scum.

You want me to agree with the fact that YOU were agreeing with Humble? So what? That's a red herring; I was talking about diddin's (not your) posturing to try to attack Humble on day two, which he quickly retracted and changed his purpose for rereading into reconfirming his town read on Humble. You could be the real MAFIA jailkeeper, KageLord, and targetting Oso would make sense since you may figure that he's a neighbor with a power role, and nightkilling Oso would make the neighbor count go down to two, and with Oso's flipping scum, Poirot could suspect diddin and target diddin with arguments and you guys would have no option to target Oso because you killed him. diddin's saying he has nothing on Poirot indicates that he cannot handle an argument from Poirot and counterargue. Poirot would win that argument and diddin would not fare well from that.

You are clearly making (at least) two different arguments/guesses here. At the end of the first one, you say that a scum team of me and diddin would target Oso with an NK so that Poirot would be more likely to be seen as scum (already flawed logic here since I would think it far more likely that diddin would be taken down in that case... there is virtually nothing on Humble, compared with an almost lynch on diddin). In this second post, you say that we would not try to NK Oso because then Humble would suspect diddin and outargue him. Those are two opposing ideas. Wild guesswork works even less if you are switching between wild guesses.

I can't vouch for diddin's reasoning on his reread of Humble or any of that since it's frankly not my concern. I have no actual link to him, so if you want to hunt him (with legitimate reasoning, of course) then be my guest. But, since your premise is that me and diddin are scumbuddies, how would it make sense for him to "posture himself to attack" Humble if I clearly have a solid town read on him? If we wanted to attack Humble, wouldn't it make sense for us to agree with Aran (who has provided the longest case against Humble)? Your premise of diddin and me as scumbuddies trying to posture to attack Humble is just nonsense.

Quick question: would a mafia jailkeeper's power prevent himself from NKing the person he is jailing?