/Invitational 11: Pick your Poison 5 (Game Over)

[Kmd4390]

Could you explain how you thought the janitor power would work?

Was assuming that they NK someone and we don't see the flip. Obviously, I was wrong.

But with the Tracker... are you seriously suggesting that a Tracker with a damning investigation should just sit on it (risking, oh, I dunno, getting killed before revealing that information?), or that to do so would qualify as a worthwhile sacrifice for the cause of not giving the Assassin a kill? That's ridiculous.

/agree

In case it wasn't obvious to everyone else: My previous question to Herodotus was more of a "So you're scum who was trying to figure out whether to give us a Hider or two?" thing. Other things that bug me about posts 90 and 96...

I'm just waiting for this business to be over so we can start hunting the scumz.

That pretty much sums up my thoughts.
Unless I'm mistaken, scum already picked town power roles.

[Patrick]

Votecount

Janitor (5) -- SpyreX, Kmd4390, DrippingGoofball, Ellibereth, Papa Zito
Rolecop (1) -- ooba
Roleblocker (6) -- Kmd4390, Papa Zito, ooba, SpyreX, Rhinox, Amished
Assassin (4) -- VasudeVa, Rhinox, Amished, Slicey

20 alive, 11 votes to choose.


Deadlines

Number one (3) -- Rhinox, VasudeVa, Slicey
Number two (9) -- Hoopla, SpyreX, Papa Zito, ooba, Elmo, ekiM, zoraster, Amished, My Milked Eek

[Papa Zito]

ATTN: Slicey, and anyone else bored by the strategy talk.

Ohhai.

Guys, seriously, why can't we just pick something and play the game/lynch Hoopla? There's no perfect plan here and watching you all spin in circles trying to find one makes me dizzy.

[mith]

VasudeVa: The "if" part doesn't make the argument more convincing; it's important only in that you were clearly misunderstanding that the argument for massclaim is entirely separate from the Rolecop/Janitor pair. If the only reason for massclaim was that we would be able to stick the scum with useless roles, it would be a terrible idea; but that's not the only reason for massclaim. The question is whether the reasons for (potential for gamebreaking, forcing the scum into a choice between giving us a bunch of confirmed innocents or taking on a messy fake claim situation, increasing the utility of the power roles while they're alive) outweigh the reasons against (scum know who the power roles are, and will be able to kill them more quickly or leave them alive to mess with us in a messy fake claim situation).

[Insert slight annoyance at Hoopla here, for discussing the scum's best plan; though I suppose it may have been obvious anyway, so my attempt at keeping them in the dark may have been pointless.]

I think the big downside with massclaim is the possibility that we have something like 2 Jailkeepers and 2 Trackers (which probably has an above average likelihood, based on the "If I Did It" comments) and thus are unlikely to get a good return on the massclaim; I think the Hider and Weak Doctor roles have a good chance of benefiting from a massclaim, and at least the Vigilante would be more informed in exchange for a lower EK (expected kills).

[Hoopla]

[Insert slight annoyance at Hoopla here, for discussing the scum's best plan; though I suppose it may have been obvious anyway, so my attempt at keeping them in the dark may have been pointless.]

If I could have figured it out, it is definitely obvious. Besides, you keeping us in the dark only helps if you are town too. I think knowing scum's best plan is a necessary aspect for towns to weigh up when making big decisions, even if publically outing that information slightly reduces it's effectiveness. Although, there aren't many fools in this game, so that risk is smaller.

[mith]

Huh.

I said "keeping them [the scum] in the dark", you said "keeping

us

in the dark". Can we lynch Hoopla yet?

[Hoopla]

Huh.

I said "keeping them [the scum] in the dark", you said "keeping

us

in the dark". Can we lynch Hoopla yet?

Us as in the town.

That sentence doesn't make sense if I meant 'us as in scum', because it clashes with the next part of the sentence you cut out - 'only helps if you are town too'. The reason I said it that way, was because you are the one player holding the information and it only helps town if you are town too. Sorry for the mix-up, although I don't think it was that hard to see that was my message.

[Rhinox]

(for example, I might be able to convince myself that the Assassin is less bad than the Rolecop, but if a choice of Assassin is necessarily coupled with the "lynch all power role claims" plan, I won't be voting for it because I think that plan is flawed).

If there's a power role claim that we wouldn't want to lynch such as those you've described, I'd rather suck up an assassin kill and lynch someone we think is scum. Actually, I'm not sure I agree with autolynching even the PR claims we're not quite confident in - better to no lynch and suck up the assassin kill, than lynch the PR, give the scum a nk choice, and the assassin keep all shots. Of course, the other option is still try to lynch scum, with the downside that there may be 3 town deaths if we suck at lynching scum.

Anybody better at running numbers, how many lynches would we lose if there were 1 or 2 extra nks from an assassin. Is it 1 kill means we lose 1 lynch and have a mylo (where we would probably no lynch), and 2 kills means we still only lose 1 lynch and go straight to lylo? How bad is losing 1 lynch really if it means our odds of hitting scum for the rest of the lynches after the kill

technically

improve?

P.S: I PM'd the mod regarding how role allotment to scum will happen - scum will get to choose allotment during the first 24 hours of day 1. "The reason to claim on day 0 is that the scum won't know which of them is the RB, so they can't decide which of them will fakeclaim in advance." so this argument is not true.

Not that I'm saying you're lying or anything, but we've all been asking these types of questions to the mod in thread, and getting responses. I'd feel better if the

mod could please confirm this information about how the scum roles will be assigned in thread.

[Patrick]

mod could please confirm this information about how the scum roles will be assigned in thread.

Confirmed. It is in the rules.

[mith]

(Hoopla, I understood what you were trying to say if you're town. Mostly, I just like messing with people on wording things, see how they react.)

To be a bit more accurate, my holding back information only helps the town if I'm town, if I've figured out the correct play for the scum, if they haven't, and if we choose massclaim. However, it only hurts the town if I've figured out a non-obvious correct play for scum which makes massclaim a poor choice for town; and since I'm town, I would obviously reveal such a strategy immediately so we can rule out massclaim and move on. As you say, other town need to be figuring this stuff out for themselves because they don't know I'm innocent, and because we're more likely to catch such a bad strategy (or good strategy) if more people are thinking about it from different angles (and, of course, wouldn't want scum-mith having some secret massclaim killing plan up his sleeve - but, [obvwifom]I would be acting quite a bit differently if I were scum... for one thing, I wouldn't be drawing attention to the fact that I am holding back information, and there would be a stronger push for massclaim coming from somewhere if scum had a good anti-massclaim strategy[/obvwifom]).

Anyway, I remain unconvinced that massclaim is a good idea for the reason given in post 153; will be voting for Roleblocker and... something else (still unsure, there) tomorrow if we haven't come up with a great pro-massclaim idea by then.

Rhinox: At worst, we can only lose 1 lynch to the assassin; and whether we lose a lynch at all with only 1 Assassin kill depends on the parity (which is hard to know, with potential for extra kills and blocked/protected kills). Losing a lynch to an Assassin kill is pretty bad though, because we're trading a lynch on the town's top suspect for a kill on a power role we presumably didn't want to lynch (compare to Vigilante kills, which also cost us lynches, but in return for extra town-controlled kills; 2 Vigilante kills + 1 lost lynch + 1 lost Mafia kill = pro-town). Overall... I think I'm leaning Assassin, but it's close with the Janitor; those two abilities are really difficult to compare balance-wise. (And it's encouraging that you aren't on auto-power-role-lynch if we pick Assassin.)

[Zorblag]

@ekiM, it be clear that you think there no will be two hiders in the game at this point. Unless you be scum you could be wrong about that though. Assuming that you know how scum will play be a great way to make mistakes. The reason that the hider claim be worthwhile be that the penalties to the town for having a single hider claim be fairly limited by the nature of the role. Them have ways to protect them self and if we choose to put a roleblocker in the game who could prevent that we most likely have other town roles that can protect them if them be playing a game worth protecting.

@Elmo, again, as Troll said to ekiM, we would be foolish to pass on the opportunity to use two hiders in large part because there be so little at risk if we go with a hider claim. It no be something that the scum can trivially exploit (as opposed to just about any other power role claim.)

There still be much to be gained by knowing how many hiders we have in the game right from the get go. It prevents any future scum hider fake claims, it carries very little risk for the town overall and it has the potential to be particularly helpful if the scum made poor choices.

A mass claim be less appealing to Troll though it does have a few benefits (no future fake claims, safe selection of the role cop, helping the town determine the setup and make better selections for the scum roles now.) Troll tends to think that other than the hider the rest of the potential town power roles should do the town more good if them stay unidentified.

At this point Troll would like to hear exactly what it is that people think the town looses that be so bad with a hider claim. Troll thinks it be most clear what the town can gain (two or zero claims be explicitly great and good in turn, scum can no longer fake the claim later.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[zoraster]

Zoraster agrees with Zorblag. Hider claim = good. Full mass-claim = not necessary and probably harmful.

[Plumegranate]

The question is whether the reasons for (potential for gamebreaking, forcing the scum into a choice between giving us a bunch of confirmed innocents or taking on a messy fake claim situation, increasing the utility of the power roles while they're alive) outweigh the reasons against (scum know who the power roles are, and will be able to kill them more quickly or leave them alive to mess with us in a messy fake claim situation).

Outweigh, I think. The likeliest scum strategy will place one scumbag in danger three or four days down the road, and the rest stay as they are - and depending on how much we have in the way of protective roles, we're more or less likely to lose them pretty quickly. If we go without, the scum will either have to deal with a messy fakeclaim (less messy if they have a Janitor) later in the game

anyway

or we'll end up massclaiming and forcing them into claiming their stuff later in the game

anyway

- unless we lynch scum really quickly it won't benefit us, and if we

do

get rid of a lot of scum early we can always massclaim and have basically the same benefits. The increased utility of powerroles while still alive will probably be more than countered by scum killing off the powerroles and their use of either the Roleblocker or the Janitor, one of which we'll have to give them along with the useless Rolecop. In that case Janitor has less utility but still has the possibility of either messy fakeclaim screwery or general screwery (I'll admit I don't mind that last one

too

much myself, because I'm more inclined to take Janitor than most others, it seems).

[Rhinox]

At this point Troll would like to hear exactly what it is that people think the town looses that be so bad with a hider claim. Troll thinks it be most clear what the town can gain (two or zero claims be explicitly great and good in turn, scum can no longer fake the claim later.)

I guess my problem is, outing any hiders makes it less optimal to place a RB, and right now RB is the scum role I'm most comfortable handing out (and everyone else, aparently). If we get 2 hider claims, that pretty much means no RB. If we get no hider claims, the only benefit we get is that there won't be any scum fake hider claims down the road. I'm not sure how helpful that really is. Assuming scum fake claim hider, a unknown tracker or vig can easily test that out. If only 1 hider claims, again, we pretty much can't give the RB role without condemning the hider. essentially, if scum didn't give us any hiders, they can then have a bigger say in which roles we give them - 1 fake hider claim would force us to consider not giving a RB.

So, if we have 2 hiders, they become an unk pair and confirmed (mostly). consider: if we do have 2 hiders, in all likliness they can confirm 2 other townies night 1. Hiders claim day 2 and now there are 4 confirmed innocents. And if they wait longer, more potential confirmed innocents, but also a risk that they die without being able to pass on informations. So, the potetial for not claiming is much better, but with more risk. What I consider a downside is that 1 or 2 hider claims means we would have to consider not giving the scum a RB, and thats the 1 role the town seems to uniformly want to give.

So.. i'm anti hider claiming, and anti mass claim as well.

[zoraster]

I'm not sure I think your reasoning makes any sense, Rhinox.

So what if that's "the role most want to give"? If we get two hider claims, i doubt most will want to give them a roleblocker.

Consider the possibilities:
1. There is one or fewer hiders, we don't have them claim, we give scum a RB = Good
2. There are two hiders, no claim, we give scum a RB = Bad
3. There is one or fewer hiders, we do have them claim, we give scum a RB = Good
4. There are two hiders, they claim, we give scum something other than RB = Better than 2.

My only concern in all of this, upon reflection, is how we actually confirm the hider claims if we don't have a mass claim. Scum KNOW how many hiders there are. If they gave town one hider, they could very well claim hider since we won't be able to count power roles. Yes, eventually we MAY be able to tell they were lying when three other power roles die, but that's considerably down the line, and I think if I were scum I would be willing to take the hit of a scum member dying down the road on the off chance town has three power roles die.

So upon further reflection, it seems to me (unless I'm missing something) we do need to mass claim or figure out some other way of reducing the problem.

But the reason not to have hiders claim has nothing to do with the fact we WANT to give them a RB in a vacuum. If we have more information, we may want to make different choices. What daft, superficial logic. Makes me wonder.

[Zorblag]

@Rhinox, the only time we would want to give scum a roleblocker would be if two hiders claimed. If we just got one claimed hider Troll be fine with giving them a roleblocker. If the scum choose to use their roleblock and kill on someone who might be protected by a weak doctor or a jailkeeper and who might kill themself by hiding behind scum or behind the person the mafia attempt to kill or behind someone a potential vig kills then Troll can certainly live with that use of their resources.

If we do have two hiders Troll would much rather have them hiding behind eachother right from the start than spending one night confirming others. The advantage of two unkillable confirmed townies be too great to want to risk getting them killed with their own roles (and there be plenty of ways for that to happen.)

If we get no hider claims at all and are able to narrowing in on the setup and what town roles there be there be more advantages than simply denying scum fake claims. It should help the town make informed decisions in general. Troll would argue that if we could know for sure which one (or more) of the power roles no was picked by the scum (and by the pigeonhole principle we do know that must be true for at least one of the power roles) we clearly be in better shape in terms of our expectations and information.

@Zoraster, if we get two hider claims and one was fake then we would get to lynch scum on day two. When the real hider tried to hide behind the mafia member them would get killed night one. If we have no roleblocker then it would be completely clear what happened. We no would need a mass claim to figure that out. Troll would trade our hider (if we have exactly one) and the ability to pick the roleblocker for a sure scum lynch come day two of a game this size.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[zoraster]

@Rhinox, the only time we would want to give scum a roleblocker would be if two hiders claimed. If we just got one claimed hider Troll be fine with giving them a roleblocker. If the scum choose to use their roleblock and kill on someone who might be protected by a weak doctor or a jailkeeper and who might kill themself by hiding behind scum or behind the person the mafia attempt to kill or behind someone a potential vig kills then Troll can certainly live with that use of their resources.

If we do have two hiders Troll would much rather have them hiding behind eachother right from the start than spending one night confirming others. The advantage of two unkillable confirmed townies be too great to want to risk getting them killed with their own roles (and there be plenty of ways for that to happen.)

If we get no hider claims at all and are able to narrowing in on the setup and what town roles there be there be more advantages than simply denying scum fake claims. It should help the town make informed decisions in general. Troll would argue that if we could know for sure which one (or more) of the power roles no was picked by the scum (and by the pigeonhole principle we do know that must be true for at least one of the power roles) we clearly be in better shape in terms of our expectations and information.

@Zoraster, if we get two hider claims and one was fake then we would get to lynch scum on day two. When the real hider tried to hide behind the mafia member them would get killed night one. If we have no roleblocker then it would be completely clear what happened. We no would need a mass claim to figure that out. Troll would trade our hider (if we have exactly one) and the ability to pick the roleblocker for a sure scum lynch come day two of a game this size.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Doh. Should read things more closely. Then yes. I'm with Zorblag.

[populartajo]

Okay I finally reread this stuff.

Ill gladly abridge the hot topics in this thread for people on the go (TM). As obvious, if Im getting the wrong impression of what you thought please correct me asap:

1.- Rhinox and Hoopla suggested an assassin/roleblocker pair with a politic of lynching claimed power roles to

a)reduce the power of the scum roles and
b)prevent scum from fakeclaiming which seems really likely in this scenario.

My thoughs: At first glance I really liked this idea. As the posts progressed, somehow Im resilient to the idea of lynching power roles that have come up with verifiable information/feel town for gut, interactions etc. Anyways, I dont think its that popular so pushing it or trying to find a way to work seems pointless to me.

2.- Zorblag proposed a hider(s) claim to

a)get two confirmed townies and break the game if scum picked two hiders and we dont give scum a roleblocker.
b) get one hider claim, force scum to fakeclaim or to play hunt the hider.
c) get zero hider claims that will give us the same information scum already have and will prevent hider fakeclaims.

My thoughts: I agree with this plan for the simple fact that I really doubt scum gave us a hider and this would be a useless exercise. Anyways, the benefits if they picked wrong greatly amuse me and its worth the try.

3.- Herodotus proposed a massclaim to

a) Force scumbags to counterclaim with an x number of mafiosos unless they want 4 people confirmed in day 0.
b) Elevate our scum lynch ratio.
c) Render the rolecop role useless.

My thoughts: As all massclaims, they sound good in theory, I dont know how effective they would be in practice. It forces the rolecop/janitor tanget with the shenanigans the janitor always bring, but somehow Ive been moved by the pro-janitor crowd. A lonely ???? result with a healthy amount of other lynches doesnt sound so bad at all. The argument of a ???? covering a power role is likely to happen only if we are about to lynch a claimed power role which we should avoid doing days 1,2 and 3 if we are going to massclaim.

Somehow Im starting to like this idea more than I anticipated.

[populartajo]

I think the big downside with massclaim is the possibility that we have something like 2 Jailkeepers and 2 Trackers (which probably has an above average likelihood, based on the "If I Did It" comments) and thus are unlikely to get a good return on the massclaim; I think the Hider and Weak Doctor roles have a good chance of benefiting from a massclaim, and at least the Vigilante would be more informed in exchange for a lower EK (expected kills).

Isnt the advantage of massclaim the proactive part of it (force scumbags to take a position) rather than what our power roles are going to do?

[populartajo]

In other news, Hoopla, Rhinox, Hero, Zorblag and Spyrex are all very likely town. Voting for them now becomes a scumtell. Be advised.

[mith]

That's part of the advantage, yes (see post 153). The problem is that the use we get from the power roles needs to be significant enough that we're making it a dilemma for them.

To be more clear than I really wanted to be: With something like 2 Jailkeepers and 2 Trackers, scum are quite safe not fake claiming power role. At best, we get a bit of WIFOM action from the Jailkeepers (will the protect/block the Trackers/each other or not) and a small number of weak investigations (which are slightly improved by the three other claimed roles, but day 1 we're talking 1/19 vs. 1/16), but it's not much of an improvement over having 4 Named Townies outed and lined up for slaughter, which in turn is hardly an improvement over not having power roles at all (19% vs. 17% or something like that).

With other combinations of power roles, there's more synergy. For example, Hider/Tracker/Weak Doctor = Weak Doctor keeps Tracker alive, Tracker tracks Hider, and now we have a more effective investigation (either Hider hides with an innocent and we have someone else confirmed, or Hider hits scum and Tracker outs the scum the next day). And that's where we force the scumbags into doing something they don't like - either let that engine run, or fake claim and try to muck it up (which we would deal with on a case-by-case).

To summarize: The point of massclaim is to

try

to be proactive, but while we have the advantage of knowing the number of power roles, scum have the advantage of knowing what the power roles are, and depending on the power roles a massclaim may not be proactive at all, it may just out the power roles for little reason.

---

One of the things that occurred to me a couple days ago regarding the outed Hider part of the Troll plan: Roleblocker is bad (though apparently Troll is ok with risking a power role to that, now?), but so is Assassin - because while the Hider can hide from the Assassin... read the last part of the Assassin PM: "If a kill fails for some other reason, you do get to try it again." That means the Assassin can just keep targetting the Hider, until the scum get a double kill (either through the Assassin, or through killing the Hider's target, or through the Hider picking scum).

It may not be the most devestating plan ever, but it does counter the "at least if we out a Hider, the Hider can hide from the scumkill if we don't give them a Roleblocker" argument to some degree. So, my current thinking is that it would be a bad idea to give the scum an Assassin if we out any power roles, even a Hider. Which leaves Rolecop/Janitor... and Rolecop is still quite strong with three hidden power roles.

So, my next thought was: We combine the two claim plans. We mass-Hider-claim. If we have 2 Hider claims, we're golden. If we have 0 Hider claims, we stop (or perhaps move to a Weak Doctor claim, but probably not). If we have 1 Hider claim, we continue to a full massclaim - Rolecop/Janitor in play, and I think an outed Hider likes the massclaim anyway in some ways (though I need to think about that more; Hider/Vigilante = Vigilante reveals kill target, Hider avoids that target; Hider/Tracker/(Tracker or Weak Doctor) = see above, which doesn't work so well if we aren't sure on the kill count/if the Hider can be blocked).

Anyway, that's way longer than I expected it to be and more time than I intended to spend on it... I don't know that massclaim even makes the 1 Hider-claim case better, much less bumps the overall plan up enough to make a day 0 claim strategy reasonable, but I do think it's worth considering as a possible improvement to "give the scum a Roleblocker or Assassin and screw the claimed Hider over" or "give the scum Daycop/Janitor so as not to screw the claimed Hider over, even though it's a bad idea".

[Zorblag]

@mith, Troll has been comfortable with making a roleblocker pick if we only get one hider claim since Post 79. It took Troll a bit more thinking to decide that but Troll thinks that the effort the scum would have to make to kill a known hider be somewhat significant (via the nature of the role) and there be be enough potential ways to stop it that Troll finds it acceptable to let them go that route should them choose it. Troll thinks that them might be tempted to see if the role will kill itself off on it's own instead as there be plenty of ways for that to happen which let them focus on other things. It depends a bit on what other roles be in the game and a lot on who actually be scum.

If we give the scum an assassin them could target a claimed hider, yes. Them would only succeed with that kill if the hider chose not to hide. Sure them would get to try again later but so long as the hider uses their ability (which them should want to do in almost all circumstances Troll would think) them no will do any extra damage to the town with that choice. Troll no particularly thinks we should give both the assassin and the roleblocker if we go with the hider claim (and get a single hider) but that should be clear.

Troll would actually probably still be inclined to say that the roleblocker/rolecop combination would be the way to go if we got a single hider claim actually. It seems to have fallen out of style of late but Troll still prefers both of those roles and their interactions to the assassin or janitor options.

Troll tends not to like the mass claim if we get a single hider claim idea. If there no be any hiders (which certainly be a possibility) then that lets scum decide if them want us to have a mass claim (assuming them would be likely to fake claim given the roles in the game.) Clearly them would attempt to make whatever choice be worse for the town in that case. Troll no would choose it on Troll's own but could live with a mass claim if we decided it was the way to go. We should probably want to do it from the start if that be the path we take.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[mith]

"If there no be any hiders (which certainly be a possibility) then that lets scum decide if them want us to have a mass claim" - This is a good point... though it's not all that different a choice than we would be giving them with a full massclaim from the start (better, in some sense, because they can't just sit back and pick off confirmed power roles in the 2 Jailkeeper/2 Tracker type setup - if they want to force the power roles out, they have to put one of their own at risk).

Anyway, this morning I can't see much good coming from an attempt to mix strategies like that. That's what I get for trying to think about strategy while overheating, I guess.

I'm still not convinced by a full massclaim, so I'm moving on from that. I'm still hung up on "Roleblocker bad if we out a Hider", but I'm more set against any of the other scum role combinations if we do a Hider claim. So, I think I'm pretty set on voting Roleblocker regardless, and I'll give Troll's posts another close look and try to give Hider-claim a fresh look. Leaning Assassin for the other role if we don't Hider-claim, probably Janitor if we don't (though I haven't considered Rolecop/Roleblocker with Hider-claim yet, will think on that too).

Vote: Roleblocker

[Papa Zito]

OMG

Anyway I reread Assassin and it doesn't seem so bad once I got past my knee-jerk to the name. I think I'd be fine with a Roleblocker/Assassin combo.

Please please please can we please end this soon please? Also please.

[Elmo]

As "pro" janitor versus some of the other combinations (namely daycop + assassin) I still don't see the inherent distaste in claims: if we get 4 and 4 exact PR claims it doesn't matter who was janned.

It's literally true, but if I were mafia then we'd almost never see exactly 4 PR claims, which is kind of the problem. If you mix in the fact that mafia know the exact makeup of town power-roles, I start feeling queasy. I think mith's covered basically everything else I wanted to say, so yeah.

I'm a bit skeptical of the value of confirmed townies early in the game, personally.

I really need this one explained too.

I guess what I meant to say was, like, if you confirm people late in the game, it makes the lynch more accurate than early in the game, because you eliminate a greater portion of living players, but a single confirmed townie doesn't help

that

much late in the game, and that's assuming the single hider gets that far. The only other benefit is being able to have someone speaking who is known town, and I don't think that's a big help. So I think a hider claim is not great if we only have one hider, and I think it's very very likely that we have either zero or one hiders. Considering it, I think I can see where Troll is coming from, at least without a RB.

Massclaim is intriguing. I gotta think that through some more. I can't really see how we're lynching more scum by it, though - but there's so many possible combos. Can someone, like, pick a random set of town power and show me how we win moar with massclaim?

P.S: I PM'd the mod regarding how role allotment to scum will happen - scum will get to choose allotment during the first 24 hours of day 1.

Not that I'm saying you're lying or anything, but we've all been asking these types of questions to the mod in thread, and getting responses. I'd feel better if the

mod could please confirm this information about how the scum roles will be assigned in thread.

Confirmed. It is in the rules.

That's interesting. Ooba, why didn't you check the thread first? I think I'd be more likely to PM the mod if I was mafia and expected that info to be either in my role PM or nowhere.

Time to get to something that matters.
TOWN

This is looking an awful lot like scum-you, no? You're getting all this from Day 0?

Does anyone have any further thoughts about the power of a Janitor beyond roleclaims &c?
I'm sorta losing interest, even thought I think it's important. Heh. Seeya!