Mini 1005: Mafiaphobes! (Game over)

[Tazaro]

You are telling us you are not a roleblocker, KageLord. Well, you targetted Oso, and I do not believe you have told us why or in what capacity you targetted him. Do you worry about being nightkilled, KageLord? Because you are not going to be able to inform us of anything when you are dead. Why did you target Oso, can you possible tell us that without revealing your role if you refuse to reveal that role?

[Tazaro]

Actually, I see that the why and the what would be connected.

[KageLord]

You are telling us you are not a roleblocker, KageLord. Well, you targetted Oso, and I do not believe you have told us why or in what capacity you targetted him. Do you worry about being nightkilled, KageLord? Because you are not going to be able to inform us of anything when you are dead. Why did you target Oso, can you possible tell us that without revealing your role if you refuse to reveal that role?

Hm... I honestly don't think that I can reveal my reason for targeting him without revealing my role. And I do worry that I will be NKed, but honestly it won't matter if I am. The information I could give now is practically useless (for a reason I will reveal after the game). Although, if there is in fact a protective role other than the JK, I hope they would protect me tonight.

[KageLord]

All I can say is that, even though my role didn't let me know Oso's alignment, I think he is town right now and would rather see a Tazaro lynch.

[Oso]

Wait... is there a such thing as a town RB?.....

That was a joke, right?

[Tazaro]

Wait... is there a such thing as a town RB?.....

That was a joke, right?

Hmm.. I mean it might be his way to be coy about actually being that role but not telling us.

[KageLord]

Wait... is there a such thing as a town RB?.....

That was a joke, right?

The world may never know... or you'll find out when if I flip if Tazaro was right or not. XD

[Oso]

Well if it wasn't a joke, I'll bite and step out of the game for a moment. Almost any role can be present in either alignment (except third party roles for the most part) although some are more common to one alignment that others.

From my experience, RBs show up pretty evenly across the alignments.

[Oso]

@xvart

I repeat, there are too many PRs, in my opinion, in this game if you are not scum.

The problem with this line of thinking is that even IF all the claimed PRs are actually town and telling the truth, this doesn't mean that sotty is scum because any of the other non-claimed players could have done a kill on him.

This is true. And I addressed that here:

....
That thought has made me seriously reconsider my action on voting Sotty several times before I finally went ahead. If we didn't have all this PRs out right now, I'd still be thinking that both diddin and Sotty stood a good chance of being town based on the protective part of diddin's role rather than thinking sotty has a decent chance of being scum based on the prevention part of diddin's claimed role.

And modified it some here after I read vezo's post and thought on it some more:

Yes. He may have protected the kill last night.
We all have to remember he is Jailkeeper.
Sotty could wither be the scum who submited the kill

or the person who got saved.

Not buying that bold part. You(vezo) were the scum target for last night even if you account for anyone's thinking you might be easily lynchable today. Both Poirot and myself mentioned yesterday that we thought you had soft claimed. But, because of your play, if I were in scum's shows I take the shot because I would figure there was a low chance of you drawing a doctor's protection.

Sotty was not the NK target last night.

In my opinion, based on a bit of projection on my part and putting myself into scum's shoes for an NK choice last night, that is what I came up with and that is what my premise is based on. Trying to use the information we have in thread to make at least a semi-educated stab at who might be scum. Rather than running around trying to figure out which of the VIs to lynch first.

[Tazaro]

I'm one of the VIs, aren't I? lol to that

[Humble Poirot]

Humble Poirots's Unofficial Vote Count Vote count 2.35

Since this post:
Sotty unvote
tazzaro Diddin
Kagelord unvote
diddin unvote
diddin tazaro
Oso Sotty
q21 tazaro
SSBF tazaro
Kage Tazaro
Tazaro sotty
Sotty Oso
Tazaro Oso
Vezok Oso
Vezok Tazaro

Oso (2) Sotty7, Tazaro

Tazaro (6) Aranneas, diddin, q21, Super Smash Bros. Fan, KageLord, vezokpiraka

KageLord (0)
Humble Poirot (0)
q21 (0)
Aranneas (0)
xvart (0)
diddin (1) xvart,
vezokpiraka (0)
Sotty7 (0) Oso
Super Smash Bros. Fan (0)

Not voting: Humble Poirot

With 11 alive, it takes 6 votes to lynch.

Deadline is August 13th, 10:30 AM (GMT + 10:00).

If you see your name answer the question with the proper number, thanks. (Oso and Aran have posts dedicated to them)

@Vezok

1) Now, Did vezok know Tazaro would be lynched with that vote?
2) Why is it that you watched Oso?

@tazaro (do not fluff)

:
1) You perpetually ignore me, why?
2) You haven't read the game, why?
3) Why is vezok town? Why did you say he was town so much before he claimed?
- a) Develop on whatever meta you have.
4) Claim your Role and what actions did you perform, if any.
5)

I'm not suspicious of Aranneus at all.

Who

(How) is he a mafia suspect? He seems to like to play is all ,and scumhunt, too, and that strikes me as a town read.

Totally uncalled for. Specially when Aranneus had not done much yet but post an ISO against me, which I responded and he replied back. But you didn't say what you thought about that back and forth. Why do you think he was scumhunting?

Heh, that's sensible, Oso. I think I'd best follow reason:

UNVOTE

VOTE: Sotty7

BULLSHIT ALERT. The scummiest vote so far. Oso says something that doesn't even hold much and sotty hops on saying "Aye Aye cap'n"

I believe you Sotty, Oso is playing it real slippery. "Both Poirot and myself mentioned yesterday that we thought you had soft claimed" said Oso. Conspiracy post incoming: So... what, you, Oso, mentioned the soft claim to support the idea that vezo would have been the NK target instead of Sotty?

UNVOTE

VOTE: Oso

YOU ... JUST ... SAID ... OSO WAS RIGHT AND VOTED SOTTY FOR IT!!! How on earth can you change sides SO FAST!

Ultra Mega Archi Super Hand Of Suspicion on Tazaro

6) What do you have to say?

@Kagelord:

1) Refer to my post where I asked you why you seemed more unsure about vezok today, than yesterday.

@q21

Unvote, Vote Tazaro

I tipped when he unvoted diddin, then FoSed diddin in his very next post. Its just the culmination of an endless stream of self contradictions, not paying attention to his own posts - let alone others', fluff and nonsensical conspiracy theories. He has to go.

1) And everything else just doesn't matter? Wow.

@xvart

KageLord - do not claim now. I don't see the need and this mass claim is starting to irritate me. I do think if you can confirm or deny that whatever you did was successful or not would be beneficial, i.e. do you know if you were roleblocked?

1)I don't understand this. Why did you ask Kagelord if HE was roleblocked when diddin was the claimed Jailkeeper who said he blocked/protected Sotty?

I realize now that Kagelord claimed to be a Town PR or Scum RB. So he clearly said he wasn't town RB.

-diddin: claimed Jailkeeper. Kept (block+Protect) sotty7. Can't be confirmed by sotty7.
-Vezok: Claimed Watcher -> Watched Oso -> Kagelord visited Oso. This is confirmed by Kagelord. Vezok HAS to be a watcher, watcher has to be scum with Vezok or Kagelord has to be scum with Vezok.
-Kagelord: Has PR but not Roleblocker. Visited Oso. Can't be confirmed by Oso.

-Oso & Sotty are alive.

-Sotty might have been the target for a kill and protected. Hence, the no kill.
-Sotty might have been the killer and blocked.

Reads:

Scum:

Tazaro, Vezok, (diddin or Oso),

lyncher:

Aran

Neutral:

q21

Town:

xvart, Kagelord, Sotty, SSBF

Tazaro's nickname should be contradictory fluff (+ vote hopper)
Vezok: Pure anti-town who enjoys being so. Only saved by useful (for now) watcher role (allignment unknown).
Oso is high in my scumlist thanks to repeatedly making no sense. His motives have no logic and he seems to continually go after players for nothing ignoring what he calls VIs.
diddin's mildness so far has been unsettling. Making no mention about sotty after the no kill IS odd. I'm at the fence about him but not willing to lynch him right now.
q21 has flown under the radar.

Cool Facts & Notes:

- Tazaro's post was 68 when I called him upon the 54 posts. Since then, he has posted 36 mote times to reach the astonishing number of 104. Which amounts to 15 % of the game (and h only came in in the second day).

- I've seen mafia watcher. Do not consider any role to be town just because.
- Diddin never mentioned sotty before the claim on day 2 (I checked what xvart pointed out)
- Vezok didn't mention Kage or Oso either.
- Both kagelord's and Vezok's targets make sense after day 1.

- Vezok claimed at L-2

- Tazaro is eager for claims. all the time.

- Tazaro has repeated the same point against diddin the entire game. The point about the reread and then being blatantly town.

- Vezok voting of Oso makes no sense, of course. If it wasn't for that damn watcher claim...

- I'm at the point where Vezok's vote hopping doesn't raise an eyebrow anymore... He is alive just because he claimed that watch. Otherwise, I would've lynched him with my own hands, forget the other six votes.

-I'ts noteworthy that Vezok, as he did with quadz, is claiming to be sure that Tazaro is scum.

- 666 -> the devil's number and yet another post that shows that Tazaro has lost it
There's n^m theories, A gazillion combinations for you to rave upon. That's not contribution.

-

Relying on the roles, instead of scumhunting is overloading the WIFOM machine's capacity. Perfect for scum.

[Humble Poirot]

One more post for you (last one)

1.) I made a severe misplay. I gave the statements made by my predecessor in this role far too much credit. In my mind they were given as much or more weight than I might a note leaver role or something along those lines. Basically, I allowed the now famous post to fester in my mind until it became a real weight on me. I set out here to either prove or disprove it. Most likely not the best way I could have gone about it.

The problem is, you didn't do anything else.

You claim you were reading ISO's in your first post but you only posted about MY ISO. That probably means that you didn't really ISO anybody else. You haven't shown real interest in any other thing in the game.

Despite what you might say about not wanting anyone lynched so far, the post against me was clearly meant to set me up as a scummy person in the eyes of everyone. The intent was clear enough and what I pointed are still lies.

I don't try to tell you what you're thinking. I'm just stating that I believe your goal is not the same as town. Otherwise, you wouldn't need to lie as much as you did.

There's no evidence that you read the game "three times before You actually replaced in". You don't talk about anything from day 1 that is not Poirot-ISO related.

And I fundamentally don't see what the difference is between this and what quadz was doing. He had two suspects. He couldn't lynch one. He switched to the second.

I've written it multiple times. Read the third paragraph again

Vezok has my potential vote if I can't get a quadz lynch. So for all intents and purposes Vezok and Kagelord are tied. If someone chooses to vote, they can't claim it's because someone has got the lead or any other excuse.

Has anyone mentioned this before? If so, please speak up. You imply negative connotations for quadz's voting pattern, and in the

next line of the same post

say that you're prepared to do the

exact same thing

to ensure a lynch of someone you think is scummy. This is one of the most blatant hypocritical contradictions I've seen and makes me more uncomfortable than anything else you've written. The problem continues below in a more in-depth discussion of Kage's reaction to the same.

No, this is one of your more farfetched lies to date and I'm really angry about it.

The only reasonable explanation I can find for such poor lies is that you're a desperate lyncher.

As scum OR town that post is a disgrace for the game.

Not a lie if I think it's true. Your anger is fair and I apologize for causing it.

I'd like to see you actually address this point if you don't mind.

Agree on the disgrace bit in retrospect.

You're STILL doing it. Trying to paint me as if I were evading questions.

I DID address the point. In the very same post. After the quote before this one.
I say:

No. No. No. You're getting on my nerves. I showed what was scummy about vezok and I showed was was scummy about quadz. They were second and first on my list and I tried to lynch the first. If I couldn't, I'd accept lynching the second

AS OPPOSED TO KAGELORD who at the time was tied and then first in the votecount but, of course, you wouldn't know anything about that since you didn't read anything but my ISO.

As a bonus, you completely ignored one of the sentences that actually end up mattering. "I'd like to get this stuff out of the way asap"

I don't know what this means after the full assault you posted against me. Granted, you never said specifically I was scum, but that doesn't look much better.

was not just some flowery wording. I mentioned it previously, but I really did just want to get this out of the way. So we can get back to playing the game. I had let jay's post get to me, but if you logically defended against anything I could come up with what reason could I have to suspect you?

And? What's the conclusion?

As for lynchers and winning conditions, it matters as in, your win condition depends on the death of your target, which is not favorable for town.

If you're intent on cooperation, show some scumhunting. Read the game and ask questions about it to everyone or whatever method you think gets results (give explanations if possible). Give your opinions about everything that has been going on so far. Day 1 AND day 2.

[Humble Poirot]

I forgot to mention that I was thinking of voting Tazaro and performed a votecount to make sure it wouldn't be a hammer. Just to find out it was.

This one is for Oso.

Vezo, if he has true claimed then only one, AS IN A SINGLE PLAYER, targeted me so if KageLord can come up with some way to show he wasn't blocked then I wasn't targeted for an NK last night as I AM NOT DEAD.

I don't understand. Many mods allow mafia to both kill and use special actions.

Oso's vote on Sotty is really hard for me to understand. The way in which he is willing to lynch someone who could have been protected by diddin is weird. He hasn't pointed out one single scummy fact about him and he's just lynching him for the possibility? A pro-town player like sotty? tch-tch. Something smell's rotten Oso's way. The worst part is that in the same post where he votes a NON claimed he says that 3 claimed town PRs seems too much.

We have too many PRs if Sotty is not scum. This is a start to trying to prove/disprove the various claims we have out here.

Too many PRs if Sotty flips town? What? So if he is scum then that's not the same? Weird. Also, you don't prove or disprove ANY claim if you lynch Sotty. At all.

This makes no sense coming from Oso and seems to me as a manipulation from his part.

FoS: Oso

. You're not even trying.

Nope, process of elimination and borrowing some of the thinking on a cop claim with a result. If you grant (and I have at the moment) that diddin, vezo and KG are all town PRs, then the likelihood that diidin prevented a kill rather than protected a target goes way up, at least in my opinion.

I'm wanting to test diddin's claim in the same way we test a cop's claim and investigation. By lynching the target, regardless of the previous reads of the players involved.

So it just a guess that can't be backed up by anything other than diddin's claim? As Sotty says, you gain nothing from it.

Since when 3 is too many PRs?

Think about it for a second. If I and Diddin were partners, and we wanted sooty7 dead, we wouldn't no-kill and then try and get sooty lynched day 2 with a jailkeeper/lynch the target scam,we would have NKed her.

Who says scum no killed? I really don't think scum gambled on no killing with so many living players. Anyway, I don't think both my neighbours are scum, it's 99% unlikely in my book.

We have 3 claimed PRs. All of them have true claimed (at least that is premise I am going on) there was no NK. Therefore diddin claim of jailing you didn't keep you from being killed, it prevented you from killing someone.

I don't follow. Why isn't it possible, for example, for me, q21 and Tazaro (to name 3 outside the claimed PRs) to be scum and have targeted Sotty (who would've been saved by diddin)?

We know from quadz flip that this isn't a non-vanilla game so if diddin, vezo and KG are Town PRs then that is just about right for town.

I don't have to scumhunt because didiin jailed the mafia nightkiller.

Clear enough?

So you're basing the lynch of a person you never claimed to be scummy because you're outguessing the mod.

It's clear that you're not thinking in the best interest of town and gambling carelessly OR you're just scum and want to lynch Sotty and then diddin after the former flips town.

No. It doesn't sit well at all.,

This makes

no

sense. If you believe the power roles have “true claimed” why do you suddenly LEAP to the conclusion that I was blocked from making the kill? AKA, if you believe there is a town watcher, JK and ??? why does that mean I was the one doing the killing? Why can't it mean that I was just sat at home being

protected

? The power roles claiming have nothing to do with me or my role. You are really reaching bad here.

If you want to play deliberately dense here, that's fine by me.

I figure it's pretty clear where I'm going and why.

In fact, Oso. He is being much more objective than you are. You've signalled no scummy behaviour about sotty and pretend he is scum because you outguess the setup. Also, you're confortable with not scumhunting any more.

Not at insult. My baiting her with a accusation that she is being deliberately dense to draw me into further discussions to perhaps get a back pedal on my part or something she can use to give herself some wiggle room. I'm not biting that hook.

This is the first time you're calling Kagelord "she". This looks like further attempts to get a violent reaction or something. Not nice.

This is an argument made on my thinking of the way the game might be balanced. Three powers roles for town is about right for the number of power roles in the game. There was no Night Kill last night when there should have been. We have a claimed power role (diddin's) that has the power to prevent someone from doing something, he targetted Sotty7.

Yep. That's your only argument and you're

constantly ommiting the possibility of a protection

.

High probability, at least in my mind, that he did in fact prevent last night's kill. This argument stands by itself without the need of any supporting evidence in sotty's prior play.

That argument is VERY weak in fact and does not even warrant a serious vote.

Yes. He may have protected the kill last night.
We all have to remember he is Jailkeeper.
Sotty could wither be the scum who submited the kill

or the person who got saved

.

Not buying that bold part. You(vezo) were the scum target for last night even if you account for anyone's thinking you might be easily lynchable today. Both Poirot and myself mentioned yesterday that we thought you had soft claimed. But, because of your play, if I were in scum's shows I take the shot because I would figure there was a low chance of you drawing a doctor's protection.

Sotty was not the NK target last night.

You're saying that scum tried to kill Vezok? The most anti-town player at that point?

Awesome. I am fascinated.

You are an alt of The Buttonmen aren't you?

I've played with The Buttonmen and he is actually good. Vezok is light years away from him.

In my opinion, based on a bit of projection on my part and putting myself into scum's shoes for an NK choice last night, that is what I came up with and that is what my premise is based on. Trying to use the information we have in thread to make at least a semi-educated stab at who might be scum. Rather than running around trying to figure out which of the VIs to lynch first.

You're asking everyone else to trust on your gut deduction/guess about the setup and lynch a pro-town player instead of the many scummy ones running around? What do you think of Tazaro? Who are the VI's you mentioned? Why are they VI's and not scum? What happens if you're stuck with them near the endgame?

disclaimer

: There's no need to reply post by post if you feel you can do it more generally (I know I repeated myself). I just don't feel like editing this (<-- lazy) and it's getting late. Worst come to worst we can discuss at night.

[Humble Poirot]

Last Cool Facts to raise some awareness:

-Day 1 lasted 19 days 17 pages.
Day 2 lasted 5 days 11 pages.

We are playing a balanced game, eh?

Extra: The first post was my 100th post on MS. Congrats to myself.

[Oso]

Going to wait on the official vote count. If your's is right then Tazaro is already lynched. If not I'll go ahead and respond.

[xvart]

Trying to get caught up in all my games so I'll try and post more before night comes around but I wanted to answer Humble.

1. I was more wondering if he knew if his action occurred or not or if there was some sort of shenanigans that occurred.

xvart.

[Oso]

Add-on, Congrats. I've been registered almost a year longer than you (9 months) and you already have half as many posts as I do. I took almost a year long break from anything on the internet other than e-mail for almost a year. Which was a shame as I really liked playing mafia on several other sites before here. It was like I joined and then had to leave almost immediately.

[Oso]

Oh, one thing this:

Not at insult. My baiting her with a accusation that she is being deliberately dense to draw me into further discussions to perhaps get a back pedal on my part or something she can use to give herself some wiggle room. I'm not biting that hook.

This is the first time you're calling Kagelord "she". This looks like further attempts to get a violent reaction or something. Not nice.

I went back and checked to make sure I hadn't inadvertently done that.

That was directed at Sooty7 who, I believe, is a woman. Married to the player zackrulzes if I read right in one of the non-game threads.

[xvart]

And for the love of god, when people say chill out on the voting, CHILL OUT ON THE VOTING. Some closing thoughts in case I die overnight. I'm fairly certain that Tazaro is scum, but it would be better to lynch a scum PR (diddin). Of course, if scum, diddin could be claiming the RB one of his partners did, but that is increasingly risky, especially with a potential watcher on the prowl. If diddin dies and flips goon, a long hard look should be taken at sotty since claiming him as a RB is really risky unless sotty is a scumbuddy or one of diddin's pals RB sotty.

xvart.

[Aranneas]

Poirot, you are for the record off my list.

I have failed as town thus far this game. Won't happen again, I can only hope. Starting tonight. I do have reads, but I won't bother right now as it will only look like more noise. Everything will hopefully make sense in the morning. Here's hoping that, once again, no townies die.

[KageLord]

I am even more unsure now about vezok though. A lot of this stuff against him could be blamed on just bad (if you don't want to give me that, then at least awkward) town play. I am just sort of unwilling to give him that free ride though since his play could just be somewhat bad scum play as well. If he doesn't show improvement here as far as scumhunting efforts go, I would still be willing to try for his lynch D2.

Dude. Why would you be much more unsure about vezok? You were an important pusher of his lynch yesterday and now you are acting all shy about it.

I figured I might as well answer this before night.

Honestly, his being scum seemed too good to be true to me at that point. Sort of like the "so crazy it just might work" psychology. I figured that I would give him one more chance before pushing for him for another day. It was only his later claim that stopped me from ending the day on him. Mind you, he still might be a scum watcher, but lynching a known PR is always a dangerous game.

[vezokpiraka]

Humble
1) No I did not know that was the hammer. I remember someone telling me Tazaro is at L-2.
2)After the first day I thought the obvious choices for watching were either Oso or Humble Poirot.

[Tazaro]

I will answer these questions.
1) You perpetually ignore me, why?
2) You haven't read the game, why?
3) Why is vezok town? Why did you say he was town so much before he claimed?
- a) Develop on whatever meta you have.
4) Claim your Role and what actions did you perform, if any.
5) Why do you think (Aranneus) was scumhunting?
Ultra Mega Archi Super Hand Of Suspicion on Tazaro
6) What do you have to say?
*********************
1) Poirot, I don't interact with you because you post periodically in installments. I don't mention you very much because I don't have any rational basis for suspecting you. And the fact that I did suspect you is attests to my wishy-washiness. Yes, I see one person's post and am in agreement, then I see another's and am like "wait a minute." I'm ostensibly indecisive and act on what pops in my brain.
2) I'm lazy and prefer to make decisions from the fresh current of posts that come in after I replace.
3) Honestly, I do not know if vezo is town. But I wanted to emphasize his VIness because it seemed like people (like diddin) were drumming up suspicion and wanting to push an easy mislynch. I'm more concerned about and more believing of the likelihood of the idea that he's being mislynched than that he's scum.
a)vezo is a player who is short on substance and scum hunting.
4) My claim is vanilla townie. Guess if that's true.
5) Aranneus was analyzing people's posts. He critiqued me even though I'm not scum. He's doing his job in this game.
6)SSBF really thinks I'm scum, he apparently doesn't want me to slip through. I know he wants to win, but I'm not scum, I'm just a weird player, kind of like vezo but with different things that are annoying about me.

[Sotty7]

Wow, I had no idea that was the hammer. I would have preferred much more discussion around Oso in particular some input from q21 who has done VERY little this game.

Oh, one thing this:

Not at insult. My baiting her with a accusation that she is being deliberately dense to draw me into further discussions to perhaps get a back pedal on my part or something she can use to give herself some wiggle room. I'm not biting that hook.

This is the first time you're calling Kagelord "she". This looks like further attempts to get a violent reaction or something. Not nice.

I went back and checked to make sure I hadn't inadvertently done that.

That was directed at Sooty7 who, I believe, is a woman. Married to the player zackrulzes if I read right in one of the non-game threads.

Yes, I am a woman. With no gender icons on this board yet I don't bother to correct anyone who refers to me as a “he” or “him”. It would get too tiresome really what with there being no girls on the internet and all that.

[Aranneas]

V/LA this weekend. Should be ready for morning before that.