Scummies Invitational (OVER!!!)

[Incognito]

Interestingly, my "like list" is pretty similar to tajo's as of right now. I'm half-tempted to put Kmd in there as well even though he hasn't done much - I kinda sorta think that a Kmd-scum wouldn't be as lazy as he has been acting here since I remember him mentioning that he enjoys being scum more than town.

[Slicey]

Goddamit just lost my post. >__> I'll try to remember what I wrote.

Tajo, explain to me your reads on Myk and CKD. You say you like the case on CKD, yet you think he's town? I'm kinda confused. Also, why do you think myk is obvious town? He seems a little jumpy to me IMO. I don't necessarily think he's scum, but I definitely don't think he's obvtown as you say.

Kinetic, what I don't understand is, is that you keep talking about how bad Empking is in other games and how much of a liability he is, yet you're not commenting on him in THIS game, which is what actually matters. Empking has made enough posts that you can comment on, whether you think it's townie posts or scummy posts, yet you have said nothing on him in this game. You're voting him and attacking him for nothing he's done in this game, but his meta and reputation alone.

For that, I will

Unvote, Vote: Kinetic

. I'm not liking anything he's saying.

I'll just

Mega FoS: KMD

[Patrick]

Votecount

Empking (1) -- Kinetic
vollkan (1) -- Tenchi
curiouskarmadog (2) -- imaginality, Kmd4390
Tenchi (1) -- SpyreX
Kinetic (3) -- Incognito, vollkan, Slicey
mykonian (1) -- q21
q21 (4) -- Ojanen, mykonian, Empking, populartajo
Incognito (1) -- Hoopla

Not voting -- curiouskarmadog
15 alive, 8 to lynch. Remember that Day One will end on August 10th.

[curiouskarmadog]

Ok updating, going back to page 4, think that is where I left off with thorough reading
Typing as I am (re)reading.

Notes to self if needed later,

Post 92, I ask those who have cases to explain to me their cases again.

93, Mykon sends out feelers to see who would like to policy lynch me…this is scummy. He also misrepresents me by saying I said I wasn’t going to scum hunt…this is also scummy. This being said, I think he is probably town. I cant imagine any scum (who was half way decent) would push those two bullshit points as a case. Espeically if the wagon took (which it almost did) and people see that I am town (after the lynch). Reviewing my wagon and the case, would expose Mykonscum for the bullshit artist he was/is. But who knows, I have never played in a game with him….if I ever get time, perhaps I meta would be in order.

96, I pose some questions which is ignored (I think)

101, imaginity jumps on the wagon with little effort in posting content.

104, same with KMD (however, it should be noted that CKD, did state he would have no problem voting me earlier in the game)

106, Empking states I was misrepresenting mykon, but never does not demonstrate how…only get an FOS from him

Page 5 have several mentions to me not being a good scum hunter, for the record, as town I am 56% correct(as vigs or lynches I have been part of), do with that what you will. As for this game, it remains to be seen I guess. (stepping off soapbox)

This is a good question (reference 109 -123)

Kinetic, all right.
Just two more questions today: what was your motive in telling me now what you would use catch me later if I was scum?
and: does this line of thinking apply to mykonian vs. ckd in one way or another in your opinion?

128, Spy shows interests in my wagon (?)

130, woah, tenchi comes out of no where and also expresses interests in my wagon (if need be).
@ tenchi, be a dear, and 1.) explain why my playstyle is reactive I was on page 4 asking for people to explain to me their cases, which reminds me, on page 4, you had a case on vollkan 2.) if you really thought vollkan was scum, why did you reiterate your case at that time? 3.) lets just have a little play time right now, lets say I was being reactive, how is that scummy? Wouldn’t it have been easier as scum to rehash someone else’s case add a couple lines and vote? (that’s reactive)..I actually think my asking people to put forward their cases again is proactive.

132, I like incognito’s post. But I also like incognito and I can see that post (on day 1) coming from scum or town, the truthfulness of the post should be reviewed with a couple flips and reviewed against his actions…because words are just that words…I do like his kinetic vote.

135, Empking posts and completely ignores my post to him….how the fuck did you win a scummie?

136, Q21, with a mykon vote. Strange reasoning. If you thought Mykon was scummy for his case against me, I would have been ok with this vote, but your reasoning is to evoke a response? (explained further in 140)

137, Mykon with an OMGUS vote on q21. (wonder what q21 thinks of that?)

139, Mykon states he thinks q21 is scum hunting (either?) but returns his vote on me.
@mykon, at this point, if you feel like q21 isnt scum hunting, why do you return you vote to me? Did the size of my wagon versus q21 have anything to do with it?

143, who is slicey and where has he been? I understand the KMD vote, but I have seen him vote hop as town and a neutral…maybe as scum too, but don’t really recall.

147, uh, Mykon replaces vote on q21 AFTER oj votes him. (noted)

148, Empking follows mykon…again.

161, Pop gives gives his likes and dislikes post…has me as disinterested…

@ pop, for the record pop, I wasn’t disinterested when I made the post about wanting to hear other’s cases, however after that I got super busy…does that affect my “rating” on your scale?

162, joins the q21 wagon.

164, hoopla also brings out his/her (I forget which) town/scum lists. Pop and hoopla have each other on their town lists….but not certain why.

165, I really like vollkan’s post here, but as in incognito, I like vollkan. I could see vollkanscum attacking mykontown’s shitty ass bullshit case. I could also see vollkantown pointing out the faults in it, with and the people who joined it for bad reason (empking).

166,

And then Q21 chose to react to my example of a "test vote" anyway, without caring about what I posted next. I guess he saw a better opportunity there with me then with Tajo.

@ mykon, ahhh, now this is a interesting quote....seeing that you revoted him once a possible wagon got started, maybe that is not what happened, but that is what it looks like on the surface (actions speak louder than words)....so could see someone saying that you "saw better opportunity" with a q21 vote over my wagon that was clearly dying?

168,

For the record, I have liked Tenchi's later posting as more townish.

oh, I dont agree here,

@oj, what is townish about his posting at this point?

169, Empking makes a horrible post.

170, 171, I prove him wrong, wonder if he will address or just ignore.

172, Kinetic is cool with lynching q21 and defends Empking’s playstyle

173, mykon, puts out feelers for vollkan hate.

174,

I should note however that I really don't have a read on Empking at this point, so I'd like to see more from him.

so at what point if you keep getting the same, do you get suspicious? I am sure he is dying to know.

176,
Again, who the fuck is slicey?

Tajo, explain to me your reads on Myk and CKD. You say you like the case on CKD, yet you think he's town? I'm kinda confused. Also, why do you think myk is obvious town? He seems a little jumpy to me IMO. I don't necessarily think he's scum, but I definitely don't think he's obvtown as you say.

Kinetic, what I don't understand is, is that you keep talking about how bad Empking is in other games and how much of a liability he is, yet you're not commenting on him in THIS game, which is what actually matters. Empking has made enough posts that you can comment on, whether you think it's townie posts or scummy posts, yet you have said nothing on him in this game. You're voting him and attacking him for nothing he's done in this game, but his meta and reputation alone.

For that, I will

Unvote, Vote: Kinetic

. I'm not liking anything he's saying.

This is actually a good post though,

If you play with me, you know I hate town list, so I will give you my scum list…everyone else falls in the town and neutral category.

My thoughts on scum at this point: Kinetic, Empking, and Pop (sorry bud, just got that mojo off of you) (if I had some money, I would lay down that there are 2-3 scum amongst this grouping.

Vote kinetic

Hey Mykon, just for shits and giggles you got a scum game you can link?..the most recent will do.

also in general, I have a baby on the way...she is due on the 18th, but the wifey is getting "twinges"..so I dont know, I will try to keep posting, but if I feel I cant keep up, I will replace out...

[Slicey]

CKD, I'm the best person ever. >_______>

In all seriousness, I'm almost always very inactive D1, especially in the beginning. Now that the game has picked up a lot, I'll be more active.

[Kinetic]

Kinetic, what I don't understand is, is that you keep talking about how bad Empking is in other games and how much of a liability he is, yet you're not commenting on him in THIS game, which is what actually matters. Empking has made enough posts that you can comment on, whether you think it's townie posts or scummy posts, yet you have said nothing on him in this game. You're voting him and attacking him for nothing he's done in this game, but his meta and reputation alone.

For that, I will

Unvote, Vote: Kinetic

. I'm not liking anything he's saying.

I'll just

Mega FoS: KMD

Slicey, nice side-step.

Now I want you to say how my argument is actually wrong. You say you don't like the argument and you want him judged on other factors (principally the 5 posts he's made in this game) and ignore the many many many games he's played elsewhere on the site.

I suppose this may be a valid argument, however, it would be a lot stronger if for some reason my argument was flawed or that you could weaken my argument some.

As it stands the two are merely parallel arguments, neither really disproves or removes from the other, but I would say mine is stronger if only on the fact that Empking's contribution so far in this game is not very strong.

Generally I don't lynch on meta alone, however, its Day 1, in a game where multiple lynches are possible in a single day. This is the optimal position for a policy lynch based on his previous play and I endorse it.

Show me otherwise and we can talk, or show me that Empking's contributions here outweigh his previous very bad play. I don't feel you can or that he has so far.

Hell, Empking hasn't even stood up to defend himself, so far everyone else is. I'd love to hear what he thinks.

[...]135, Empking posts and completely ignores my post to him….how the fuck did you win a scummie?
[...]
148, Empking follows mykon…again.
[...]
[...]and the people who joined it for bad reason (empking).
[...]
169, Empking makes a horrible post.
[...]
172, Kinetic is cool with lynching q21 and defends Empking’s playstyle

WHAT!?!

[...]
My thoughts on scum at this point: Kinetic, Empking, and Pop (sorry bud, just got that mojo off of you) (if I had some money, I would lay down that there are 2-3 scum amongst this grouping.

Vote kinetic

Blue is mine.

First, if you think I'm defending Empking or his playstyle you are completely out of line.

Second, the main person I want out is in your "scum group" and yet you put me with them in that same group. Maybe if Emp comes up town you could make some sort of argument, but frankly you dislike him in this game for all the same reasons I dislike him since he does this in every game.

This vote reads completely disingenuous.

FOS:CKD

I support Empking, Q21 and CKD, in that order right now.

[mykonian]

139, Mykon states he thinks q21 is scum hunting (either?) but returns his vote on me.
@mykon, at this point, if you feel like q21 isnt scum hunting, why do you return you vote to me? Did the size of my wagon versus q21 have anything to do with it?

147, uh, Mykon replaces vote on q21 AFTER oj votes him. (noted)

CKD, I get the feeling you start tunneling. Anyway, between my revote of you and my vote of Q21 I was asleep. I would have voted Q21 as soon as he came with that OMGUS-case.

Further, 139 contains a typo, right? I haven't really been talking there about scum hunting, I have stated that Q21's way of making a test vote was too cautious (and therefore lost most of it's possible effect)



My last scumgame I replaced into and I only had to play that for the last 2 days without a lot of problems. I don't think that will help you a lot. The one before was teleportation mafia

Further, in general, you seem to dislike that I post some of my arguments against people as soon as I think of them (pretty much every "myko puts out feelers"-post), or am I misreading that?

[curiouskarmadog]

@ Kinetic,

I meant "attack" I put the post number there...if anyone reads the post it is obvious that you are attacking him, not defending him. I think my problem there (why I wanted to note the post for later) was (like Mykon) you are supporting a policy lynch on Day 1. yet I didnt see you actually touch on his scummy actions today. Empking usually sucks across the board, that is why I never join games with him in it. Because you are right that he does hurt the town...but I am not going to waste a lynch based on a policy of me not liking him in game (like mykon, that isnt scum hunting). Now this particular game though, he actual has made some scummy maneuvers. I am not voting you because of your opinion of empking.

@ Mykon,

Really, I am tunneling on you? What part of me saying that I think you are town is tunneling? You do imply in that post that you feel q21 "isnt scumhunting" and that he "needs to get opinions of his own". Do you have a game that you were scum the entire time (or at least from Day 1?).

Further, in general, you seem to dislike that I post some of my arguments against people as soon as I think of them (pretty much every "myko puts out feelers"-post), or am I misreading that?

something about the way you do/did it rubbed me odd. it seems less like trying to "post arguements" and more like trying to see if there was enough suspicion here to get something going. perhaps you are just trying to get another players stances on someone Day 1 to see if there actions speak louder than words, and I am cool with that...again, I dont think you are scum (yet?), but I am making notes to look at in the future..............

....if I have a future.

@Spy and Imagin, would like to hear some more from you....especially you spy, why so quiet, you are NEVER this quiet.

[Empking]

@Kinetic Since you want a response to your support for a policy lynch. 1. Policy lynches are bad, 2. I'm pips easy to read, only bad players or scum "get distracted by" or "bought down by" me. 3. You still hold a grudge against me for that babylon 5 game, really?

[Kinetic]

CKD: Explain to me how it wastes a lynch and your argument makes sense. Otherwise it falls on its face. This type of game is unique in that losing a lynch is not as big a set back as in a normal game.

Emp: Its not just B5, in fact, I don't remember specifics so that game didn't come up in my mind. Its the overwhelming evidence that even as town Empking is better dead and revealed than in the game. I've done the whole "this person is scummy, but I think they're town" bit before, and sometimes it works, but most of the times it bites me on the ass. This game gives a unique opportunity. We can remove a player that is, at best, a distraction, for the low low cost of -1 player slot. We don't lose a lynch, we may slightly lose balance and I assume this game is very well balanced, but it is of my opinion that it will help the town in the end.

[vollkan]

Since 3 outsiders have commented disagreeing with there being a meaningful distinction, I acknowledge to the outside the difference does apparently not seem significant. I'll confess that while writing my first post it came even to my mind that I was having some trouble writing something actually meaningful about my playstyle in one sentence. I copied Hoopla's questions to my post first, commented on rest of the early stuff after it and then came back to answer before sending. So whether I was being hypocritical to Tenchi came to my mind too. But I thought at the time that his no introspection at all was on the extreme side. My problem was related to things being too complex to describe in one sentence rather than thinking there's little rhyme and reason to how I roll.

For the record, I have liked Tenchi's later posting as more townish.

I have a few issues with this.

Firstly, let's go back to your original post on Tenchi:

Overtly self-unaware answer. Everyone has plenty of persona to spill over.

You now say that "it came even to my mind that I was having some trouble writing something actually meaningful about my playstyle in one sentence". Either you are lying now or you were lying then, because there is no way that, if you genuinely found the self-meta exercise difficult, you could reasonably be so bombast in your attack on Tenchi as to claim that "Everyone has plenty of persona to spill over". The strong tone of your original attack on him is completely at odds with your current argument.

Secondly, your most recent post quoted above is dealing with the issue in an evasive manner. Your position on Tenchi has come under serious attack. In that situation, you have two reasonable options: defend or retract. Instead, you've basically thrown up a cloud of smoke by shifting your position so as to minimise the significance of your attack (though, one which raises the inconsistency issue I addressed above), without actually having to take a stand for or against the criticisms that have been made.

If other people want to protect him and stop that from happening (like you), go ahead, I'm not going to think its too scummy. But if he does end up being scum when we eventually lynch him (because I do think its inevitable that he will be lynched even if its not today) then I'm going to look very hard on you.

This doesn't make sense. Breaking down your post into its two sentences:

If other people want to protect him and stop that from happening (like you), go ahead, I'm not going to think its too scummy.

From the above, you clearly don't think it is scummy for somebody to oppose an Empking policy lynch. It follows that you can see legitimate town reasons why somebody would oppose your position.

But if he does end up being scum when we eventually lynch him (because I do think its inevitable that he will be lynched even if its not today) then I'm going to look very hard on you.

Despite the above (ie that a townie could reasonably defend Empking), you are strongly suggesting that should Empking flip scum you would consider that a mark against any opponent of an Empking policy lynch.

You can't have it both ways. If defending Empking is objectively legitimate (and you admit that it is), then it is not a scumtell irrespective of which way Empking ultimately flips.

Its policy lynching based on my experience with this player. All this great defense of Empking makes me start to wonder why. Show me a game where he has been a great benefit to the town. Maybe I've missed something, but I don't remember him being such a good player as to warrant this. I'm going to do some meta checking, be right back.

The question is not whether Empking is a great benefit to the town; it's whether he is likely to be such a detriment to the town that it is better that he be lynched. The difference between the two is that the way you framed it puts the onus on the rest of us to show why Empking should stay, when good policy dictates the burden of proof should fall onto you.

Empking lynches townie in endgame as town. July 27

I read Empking's last post in that game. His reasons for voting seemed satisfactory. I've seen (and done myself) far stupider things.

Empking lynches townie in endgame as town. July 26

Reasons seemed weak. Again, though, being a sub-par player hardly justifies policy lynching. (And the beauty of this setup is that the traditional argument for policy lynching early on doesn't apply so much; if Empking really does turn out to be a human trainwreck, we can lynch him later on and not sacrifice a day)

Empking lynched Day 3. Not exactly sure why, so I've drawn no conclusions from this. July 10
Empking wins, near endgame (5 players) by lynching BattleMage(lol). June 30
Empking slips by as scum. Wins. June 11
Lynched Day 4 after, (lol) miller13 D1, zwet D2, CJMiller D3. Don't know the reasons, but I'll admit those are players I'd lynch before Empking as a policy too, lolol. Don't know if his lynch was policy in this game, but wouldn't doubt it. Lynched Oct 13, 09

I checked the last of these, and it was a suspicion lynch.

Nothing you've provided proves any more, even taking it at its highest, than that Empking is mediocre. That's hardly a sound argument for a policy lynch.

Have you never played with Vollkan before, Kinetic? Anyway, if I had to gamble here, I'd think he is scum. I would expect him to be more "important" in the game (sorry, can't find the right english word.) Esspecially with the recent activity, there was every room for Vollkan to make his points, to scumhunt, and for some reason, he didn't.

Myk, I've only recently come back from a V/LA (which I announced in my ISO 3). Since then, I've been active in making my points on everything.

Also, you're assuming that my meta is to be less active as scum. I know from self-meta that that is not the case.

I suppose this may be a valid argument, however, it would be a lot stronger if for some reason my argument was flawed or that you could weaken my argument some.

The

argument

assertion you made was that Empking was a massive liability and literally better off dead. It's hard to 'refute' that without doing an entire meta on Empking. Drawing on my point above, you should be the one to present evidence for him being scummy, which you hadn't done in your initial point (and the subsequent 'evidence' you did present was, as I said above, very weak)

CKD: Explain to me how it wastes a lynch and your argument makes sense. Otherwise it falls on its face. This type of game is unique in that losing a lynch is not as big a set back as in a normal game.

That's not the point. Lynching a player without good reason is just bad policy, for obvious reasons.

[Kinetic]

If other people want to protect him and stop that from happening (like you), go ahead, I'm not going to think its

too

scummy. But if he does end up being scum when we eventually lynch him (because I do think its inevitable that he will be lynched even if its not today) then I'm going to look very hard on you.

This doesn't make sense. Breaking down your post into its two sentences:

If other people want to protect him and stop that from happening (like you), go ahead, I'm not going to think its

too

scummy.

From the above, you clearly don't think it is scummy for somebody to oppose an Empking policy lynch. It follows that you can see legitimate town reasons why somebody would oppose your position.

But if he does end up being scum when we eventually lynch him (because I do think its inevitable that he will be lynched even if its not today) then I'm going to look very hard on you.

Despite the above (ie that a townie could reasonably defend Empking), you are strongly suggesting that should Empking flip scum you would consider that a mark against any opponent of an Empking policy lynch.

You can't have it both ways. If defending Empking is objectively legitimate (and you admit that it is), then it is not a scumtell irrespective of which way Empking ultimately flips.

I bolded the word that is most important in my first sentence. I'm not looking for it both ways, I said I don't think its is TOO scummy, however I do think it is at least slightly scummy. And yes, should Empking flip scum I will take renewed interest in all those who opposed his lynch so heavily. I fail to find the inconsistency you are trying to point out in my argument.

Its policy lynching based on my experience with this player. All this great defense of Empking makes me start to wonder why. Show me a game where he has been a great benefit to the town. Maybe I've missed something, but I don't remember him being such a good player as to warrant this. I'm going to do some meta checking, be right back.

The question is not whether Empking is a great benefit to the town; it's whether he is likely to be such a detriment to the town that it is better that he be lynched. The difference between the two is that the way you framed it puts the onus on the rest of us to show why Empking should stay, when good policy dictates the burden of proof should fall onto you.

Empking lynches townie in endgame as town. July 27

I read Empking's last post in that game. His reasons for voting seemed satisfactory. I've seen (and done myself) far stupider things.

Empking lynches townie in endgame as town. July 26

Reasons seemed weak. Again, though, being a sub-par player hardly justifies policy lynching. (And the beauty of this setup is that the traditional argument for policy lynching early on doesn't apply so much; if Empking really does turn out to be a human trainwreck, we can lynch him later on and not sacrifice a day)

Empking lynched Day 3. Not exactly sure why, so I've drawn no conclusions from this. July 10
Empking wins, near endgame (5 players) by lynching BattleMage(lol). June 30
Empking slips by as scum. Wins. June 11
Lynched Day 4 after, (lol) miller13 D1, zwet D2, CJMiller D3. Don't know the reasons, but I'll admit those are players I'd lynch before Empking as a policy too, lolol. Don't know if his lynch was policy in this game, but wouldn't doubt it. Lynched Oct 13, 09

I checked the last of these, and it was a suspicion lynch.

Nothing you've provided proves any more, even taking it at its highest, than that Empking is mediocre. That's hardly a sound argument for a policy lynch.

These are his last 5 or so games on the site (the last being a game that recently ended but which he was removed from early), all happening within a very close period to each other. If I pulled deeper I'm sure the trend would continue based on my own experience with him. He is more than mediocre in his own ability, he compounds that by being very unresponsive, inability to listen to reason, generally lurky, and an overall hindrance. Is he the worst player I've ever played with? No. Is it enough that if possible, on a game where lynches are relatively cheap that if could get rid of him day 1 I would. Yes.

Now, I remember the specific instance as to a game I played with Empking, (the B5 one). In that game we were masons together, had an absurd amount of information on the set up, and I was able to break the game privately with him within 1 week of game time. His character was immortal as long as mine was alive. For nearly a week I tried to talk to him, get anything from him, and it was like pulling teeth. Additionally I wanted HIM to present the information since he would not be subject to the retaliation that I KNEW would come from the scum for breaking the game so heavily and he would soak up NKs.

Instead with deadline approaching and no response from him I was forced to come forward with my information. The LAST ditch effort to try and salvage something was I suggested we swap roles and I claim to be the immortal one and if pressured he claim to be my "Achilles Heel", so he could soak NKs and allow us to survive at least one additional day. What does he do? He pretty much full claims in thread.

It wasn't mediocre play in that instance, it was completely horrible play where if he would have listened, or participated we could have crushed the game. However, at best despite all I did to break the game I wa only able to succeed at a partial win.

Now this was nearly 2 years ago, but I have not seen in any game that he has become a better player.

I am NOT the only player in this game saying that. I am the only one willing to put my vote behind it.

Day 2+ are not the time for policy lynches. If it is not done today, I will not support it on policy grounds.

I suppose this may be a valid argument, however, it would be a lot stronger if for some reason my argument was flawed or that you could weaken my argument some.

The

argument

assertion you made was that Empking was a massive liability and literally better off dead. It's hard to 'refute' that without doing an entire meta on Empking. Drawing on my point above, you should be the one to present evidence for him being scummy, which you hadn't done in your initial point (and the subsequent 'evidence' you did present was, as I said above, very weak)

Besides one game where Incognito says Empking wasn't a complete disaster, I haven't heard anyone at least provide something that will show otherwise. I'm not asking for a complete meta, and yes I know my evidence was weak. But it wasn't intended to be the entire end all be all, and I have been open to the possibility that if someone provides proof that there is at least the chance of him being useful I'll back off.

So far the most common defense is that "policy lynching" is bad, which is more of a general defense then specifically "policy lynching Empking is bad".

CKD: Explain to me how it wastes a lynch and your argument makes sense. Otherwise it falls on its face. This type of game is unique in that losing a lynch is not as big a set back as in a normal game.

That's not the point. Lynching a player without good reason is just bad policy, for obvious reasons.

[/quote]

In that argument it WAS the point.

Because you are right that he does hurt the town...but I am not going to waste a lynch based on a policy of me not liking him in game

CKD's argument was: It wastes a lynch, so its bad.

Explain to me how it wastes a lynch and your argument makes sense. Otherwise it falls on its face. This type of game is unique in that losing a lynch is not as big a set back as in a normal game.

My argument: How does it waste a lynch? If you can't prove it wastes a lynch, and otherwise you would support it (which based on that argument it seems he would), you should not be against it if it does not waste a lynch.

That's not the point.

Your Rebuttle: Its still bad.

I believe you missed the point of that particular exchange, not me. I was merely pointing out that CKD's reasoning in that specific instance was flawed because of the nature of this game.

[Kmd4390]

Q21 saying that he was after Myko's reaction, not Tajo's is bullshit.

---------------

Why volkan? Why hoopla?

The first thing that caught my interest on Vollkan is actually why I don't think Vollkan and Hoopla are scum together even though both are scummy. Vollkan asked what Hoopla wanted to accomplish with the survey. He didn't answer the survey, but he didn't give his thoughts on the fact that Hoopla posted it. While it doesn't look cautious at first glance, it really is. If he is scum, he isn't answering the survey because he doesn't know what Hoopla is looking for.

The next thing he does is attempt to discredit me when I say he may be scum. He doesn't ask why like a normal person would. He just says I'm useless and he doesn't understand why I didn't elaborate. No request to elaborate, just a mention of the fact that I didn't.

On Hoopla, the survey kind of reminds me of the new "RQS" trend that I strongly dislike. It distracts from actually placing votes and calling people scum and tends to stall actual reads from occuring. The other thing it does is make some people's subconcious think "this player is town because they are asking questions". I can see Hoopla doing this intentionally. I wouldn't say the same for many players, but Hoopla, yeah.

So yeah, I think Vollkan is scum. Hoopla, while scummy, is town if Vollkan is scum.

-----------------

Oh, and I should mention that meta tells me Empking is town.

-----------------

Unvote, Vote Vollkan

[Tenchi]

All right. So I'm catching up where I left off (page 2).

I don't really get Tenchi's vote on vollkan back in his post 43; he ends up voting him using "shiny wagon" as the reasoning, which seems joke-y especially with the exclamation point at the end, but I don't get why he specifically chose to wagon vollkan as opposed to one of the other viable wagons. Tenchi, was there some additional reasoning behind your vote? Did vollkan do something that struck you as scummier than any of the other wagon options?

Nope. I wanted to start a wagon and I do think it failed. At that point I voted for vollkan because he had the most votes at that time.

Also, I hate meta because it always assumes that players play the same everytime they play, which I find irrelevant but the discussion of meta deviates from the current, in-game discussions. Also, being one of the no-so-regular people here, meta also alienates people that have no idea what you are talking about -- in this case, me.

In other words, all the meta reads like "X is scum/town" is just mucking up the thread, a way to earn brownie points without the need to justify in-game actions of people.

A FEW QUESTIONS FOR IMAGINALITY

I just find your recent answers to be very conservative. You have reacted quite a lot on game mechanics questions and so far you only have one meaty post and I would like some more pls k thx.

1. Should a policy lynch on Empking happen?

2. CKD has addressed suspicions of him on page 5. Reactions?

3.

Unvote, vote: Incognito

I'm not usually a gut player, but he is very phony this game.

Shittiest reason I have seen thus far. Just because somebody does not choose to play the same as you expect them to doesn't make the scum. The overwhelming stench of using meta to jump on a new wagon is overwhelming.

First you vote KMD, for wagonning reasons.
And then you vote me, for probably valid reasons, if you are not sure what I was doing.
And then you replace that suspicion of me with a meta read on Incongnito, because he is PHONY?

Please.

I think it is HooplaScum, and either one of the existing wagons because HooplaScum doesn't want to choose either, or maybe CKD (because of Hoopla post 15).

Also, Hoopla, please answer Post 154.

VOTE: HOOPLA

What's wrong with questioning town reads?

Inherently? Nothing.

However, the questioning is more of a "how could YOU THINK THAT" and not a "WHY do you think that?"

WTF is this? I asked people for reasons, asking WHY. What kind of BS interpretation of my questioning is this?

FOS: Spyrex

POPTAJO: Thank you for giving scum a shopping list K THX BYE.

I think I missed something...

How many people are in favor of a policy lynch? Chances are just as good that CKD is scum, and we he isn't going to hunt for scum, so as town he'll just hold us back.

Wait a sec, are you negotiating with everyone for the lynch of somebody? Is your pursuance of the CKD case dependent on what everybody else thinks?

FoS: Mykonian

130, woah, tenchi comes out of no where and also expresses interests in my wagon (if need be).
@ tenchi, be a dear, and 1.) explain why my playstyle is reactive I was on page 4 asking for people to explain to me their cases, which reminds me, on page 4, you had a case on vollkan 2.) if you really thought vollkan was scum, why did you reiterate your case at that time? 3.) lets just have a little play time right now, lets say I was being reactive, how is that scummy? Wouldn’t it have been easier as scum to rehash someone else’s case add a couple lines and vote? (that’s reactive)..I actually think my asking people to put forward their cases again is proactive.

1a. THIS IS REALLY REACTIVE

caught up/checking in.

I dont see anything that has my hackles up yet, even with all the theory discussion and D1 finger pointing. Until I get said hackles going, anyone have questions about my stances on anyone or cases being made???

It apprars that you are waiting for people to call you attention, or you are waiting for other people to make cases on other people so that you can react on them later on. In other words, you have no plan to initiate discussion yourself.

1b/2. IF YOU WERE REALLY READING THE THREAD. It is clear, along with Incognitos and Hooplas reactions on me that I didn't have a case on Vollkan.

3. Again, being reactive is scummy because scum would rely on the initial naivety of town since they do not know who's who, allowing town to make blind, and wild suspicions. It would be advantageous for scum to avoid this D1 mess.
You asking people to participate is nowhere being proactive. I can put banners and posters to encourage people to post but unless you start asking questions and suspecting people, that can only take you so far.

I have yet to review my own posts (questions I asked earlier that I think have not been answered) to see if I see anything.

[Tenchi]

>< Will repost with fixed quote tags.

All right. So I'm catching up where I left off (page 2).

I don't really get Tenchi's vote on vollkan back in his post 43; he ends up voting him using "shiny wagon" as the reasoning, which seems joke-y especially with the exclamation point at the end, but I don't get why he specifically chose to wagon vollkan as opposed to one of the other viable wagons. Tenchi, was there some additional reasoning behind your vote? Did vollkan do something that struck you as scummier than any of the other wagon options?

Nope. I wanted to start a wagon and I do think it failed. At that point I voted for vollkan because he had the most votes at that time.

Also, I hate meta because it always assumes that players play the same everytime they play, which I find irrelevant but the discussion of meta deviates from the current, in-game discussions. Also, being one of the no-so-regular people here, meta also alienates people that have no idea what you are talking about -- in this case, me.

In other words, all the meta reads like "X is scum/town" is just mucking up the thread, a way to earn brownie points without the need to justify in-game actions of people.

A FEW QUESTIONS FOR IMAGINALITY

I just find your recent answers to be very conservative. You have reacted quite a lot on game mechanics questions and so far you only have one meaty post and I would like some more pls k thx.

1. Should a policy lynch on Empking happen?

2. CKD has addressed suspicions of him on page 5. Reactions?

Unvote, vote: Incognito

I'm not usually a gut player, but he is very phony this game.

Shittiest reason I have seen thus far. Just because somebody does not choose to play the same as you expect them to doesn't make the scum. The overwhelming stench of using meta to jump on a new wagon is overwhelming.

First you vote KMD, for wagonning reasons.
And then you vote me, for probably valid reasons, if you are not sure what I was doing.
And then you replace that suspicion of me with a meta read on Incongnito, because he is PHONY?

Please.

I think it is HooplaScum, and either one of the existing wagons because HooplaScum doesn't want to choose either, or maybe CKD (because of Hoopla post 15).

Also, Hoopla, please answer Post 154.

VOTE: HOOPLA

What's wrong with questioning town reads?

Inherently? Nothing.

However, the questioning is more of a "how could YOU THINK THAT" and not a "WHY do you think that?"

WTF is this? I asked people for reasons, asking WHY. What kind of BS interpretation of my questioning is this?

FOS: Spyrex

POPTAJO: Thank you for giving scum a shopping list K THX BYE.

I think I missed something...

How many people are in favor of a policy lynch? Chances are just as good that CKD is scum, and we he isn't going to hunt for scum, so as town he'll just hold us back.

Wait a sec, are you negotiating with everyone for the lynch of somebody? Is your pursuance of the CKD case dependent on what everybody else thinks?

FoS: Mykonian

130, woah, tenchi comes out of no where and also expresses interests in my wagon (if need be).
@ tenchi, be a dear, and 1.) explain why my playstyle is reactive I was on page 4 asking for people to explain to me their cases, which reminds me, on page 4, you had a case on vollkan 2.) if you really thought vollkan was scum, why did you reiterate your case at that time? 3.) lets just have a little play time right now, lets say I was being reactive, how is that scummy? Wouldn’t it have been easier as scum to rehash someone else’s case add a couple lines and vote? (that’s reactive)..I actually think my asking people to put forward their cases again is proactive.

1a. THIS IS REALLY REACTIVE

caught up/checking in.

I dont see anything that has my hackles up yet, even with all the theory discussion and D1 finger pointing. Until I get said hackles going, anyone have questions about my stances on anyone or cases being made???

[/quote]

It apprars that you are waiting for people to call you attention, or you are waiting for other people to make cases on other people so that you can react on them later on. In other words, you have no plan to initiate discussion yourself.

1b/2. IF YOU WERE REALLY READING THE THREAD. It is clear, along with Incognitos and Hooplas reactions on me that I didn't have a case on Vollkan.

3. Again, being reactive is scummy because scum would rely on the initial naivety of town since they do not know who's who, allowing town to make blind, and wild suspicions. It would be advantageous for scum to avoid this D1 mess.
You asking people to participate is nowhere being proactive. I can put banners and posters to encourage people to post but unless you start asking questions and suspecting people, that can only take you so far.

I have yet to review my own posts (questions I asked earlier that I think have not been answered) to see if I see anything.

[Ojanen]

I have a few issues with this.
Firstly, let's go back to your original post on Tenchi:

Overtly self-unaware answer. Everyone has plenty of persona to spill over.

You now say that "it came even to my mind that I was having some trouble writing something actually meaningful about my playstyle in one sentence". Either you are lying now or you were lying then, because there is no way that, if you genuinely found the self-meta exercise difficult, you could reasonably be so bombast in your attack on Tenchi as to claim that "Everyone has plenty of persona to spill over". The strong tone of your original attack on him is completely at odds with your current argument.

I'm not lying; you are wrong.
"Everyone has plenty of persona to spill over" is, to me, a simple and evident statement. There is a distinct scent of their specific type of consciousness in every post everyone writes. Playing mafia (even playing something more abstract in regards to personality such as tennis) is something that exposes character. You can take a role but anything involving for example confrontation will make you want to instinctively act in a way that is natural to you. Playstyle has a strong correlation to personality, and even if you consciously try to completely manipulate it, it's likely you will change mostly the surface. So that part is not an attack but a simple fact to me.
"Overtly self-unaware answer" was the offensive part. And Tenchi's answer is still alienly self-unaware to me. But looking at his later posting after RVS: this, and this and this, basically every post has several things that just seem to me like he is putting very little thought into what he's writing (least of everyone in the game including Empking [PREVIEW EDIT: well, this latest post is not really in that same category, haven't read it carefully yet though]), like he's commenting quickly and impulsively and doesn't think through, doesn't value pondering. And in that context his answer no longer seems unnatural as it seemed early on. Like Hoopla elaborated, someone with an unusually naive style.
I don't see how that tone comes across so strong to you that it would be at odds with what I said now. I wrote the original line before I considered my own exact response as I explained and then left it there despite having to think about my own answer, maybe that comes across in the tone or something, but I don't really see that myself.

Secondly, your most recent post quoted above is dealing with the issue in an evasive manner. Your position on Tenchi has come under serious attack. In that situation, you have two reasonable options: defend or retract. Instead, you've basically thrown up a cloud of smoke by shifting your position so as to minimise the significance of your attack (though, one which raises the inconsistency issue I addressed above), without actually having to take a stand for or against the criticisms that have been made.

I have dodged nothing. I have responded to the criticisms and explained my position at the time. Half of the criticism was made only after I had alrerady moved on, and I felt a bit silly pounding on about my old position on Tenchi when I felt half-assed about it without mentioning that. There are people like Spyrex and to a lesser degree imaginality who have surpassed him on the misty side of my suspicion list by now. You are free to not believe it of course since I didn't go on record explicitly on my waning interest on Tenchi when I started pursuing other things.

To ckd: you asked why I felt Tenchi was more townish later; the above has some explanation; also while I completely and utterly disagreed with it, his iso 11 felt somewhat more likely town motivated to me (not scum-scum probably in any case). As a little detail his thought process in iso 10 about useless provocation from ckd mirrored mine exactly (that's only relevant because I don't think he thinks hard).

[Ojanen]

Also, I'm optimistic enough about there being means to read people through in-game analysis that I don't see myself supporting policy lynching Empking for out-of-game reasons (this without playing a game with him as far as I remember).
Kinetic's answers to my questions were unsatisfying but I will wait and see. Can I just confirm that the answer to my question on whether anyone made an overreach comparable to your perception of mine was negative in myko vs. ckd?

I have a concert on Friday and a recording on Saturday; preparing/executing those will probably limit my access for the next couple of days.

[Kinetic]

Can I just confirm that the answer to my question on whether anyone made an overreach comparable to your perception of mine was negative in myko vs. ckd?

Maybe its the alcohol but I'm having trouble deciphering this. Can you re-phrase it in English please?

[Ojanen]

English is my third language, guess it shows sometimes.
Just please confirm that you indeed found noone to make an overreach myko vs. the dog since that part was left somewhat unclear to me. That the tell you applied to me doesn't not apply there.

[Kinetic]

So... many negatives and double negatives... I'll re-read ckd/myko in a bit and see if I can find what you're looking for.

[Ojanen]

Lol. doesn't not = doesn't in post 193. sorry.

[SpyreX]

Ohh yea "explain please" is totally a clearer my bad.

Woosh.

That quote was pretty clearly there because you disagree but offered no rationale why soo

[Incognito]

Heavy page. Trying to keep this brief.

so at what point if you keep getting the same, do you get suspicious? I am sure he is dying to know.

I don't really expect to get the same over and over again from Empking. I think he's one of those players who needs to be left more to his own devices rather than pressure voted or policy lynched.

@Kinetic:

I understand what you're saying with regard to your stance on Empking and how, because this mechanic allows for multiple lynches, we can probably afford a policy lynch if needed. But if that's really the case, why do I get the feeling that you seem content with just having a single lynch Today despite working the whole "this mechanic favors policy lynches" into your reason(s) for wanting to lynch him? Am I wrong about that?

-~-~-~-~

SpyreX, why aren't you scum hunting?

-~-~-~-~

Still not really seeing the case on vollkan. The second point raised by Kmd in his 187 doesn't ring true to me - I felt like vollkan's comment on Kmd

was

basically his way of asking Kmd to clarify further. The first point Kmd raised I can kind of see, but I feel like vollkan's posts afterwards seem ok so far - he seems to be genuinely looking for scum.



Will probably have more comments later. Going to bed for now.

Mod:

Prod imaginality?

[SpyreX]

I'm not tangling the web because, frankly, I haven't had that kind of bite yet. For whatever reason these posts just kind of glaze over and I need to focus but can't.

I'm still very, very confident about a tenchi scum flip though.

[Incognito]

Well, that's what's bugging me. If you still like Tenchi as scum, I'd think you might start trying to look into this alternate wagon stuff that's been happening with Kinetic to see if anything could possibly be drawn from that. Instead, you haven't really commented on it nor have you shared thoughts on Kinetic either. You have no opinion on any of that?