Scummies Invitational (OVER!!!)

[Kinetic]

@Kinetic:

I understand what you're saying with regard to your stance on Empking and how, because this mechanic allows for multiple lynches, we can probably afford a policy lynch if needed. But if that's really the case, why do I get the feeling that you seem content with just having a single lynch Today despite working the whole "this mechanic favors policy lynches" into your reason(s) for wanting to lynch him? Am I wrong about that?

If you got that impression I apologize, that wasn't quite my intent, although I suppose its not completely wrong either.

My stance is best like this: I'd prefer 1-2 lynches, based on some factors. While 1 lynch would likely be preferable on Day 1, if there is a policy lynch a second lynch would not be a bad idea. I do not have a set stance on if we need to do 2 lynches or one in that case, but either way I'm trying to make my feelings known outside of Empking and to keep in the game.

At this point I support Q21 and CKD as lynch candidates whether or not we have a policy lynch.

[mykonian]

I think I missed something...

How many people are in favor of a policy lynch? Chances are just as good that CKD is scum, and we he isn't going to hunt for scum, so as town he'll just hold us back.

Wait a sec, are you negotiating with everyone for the lynch of somebody? Is your pursuance of the CKD case dependent on what everybody else thinks?

FoS: Mykonian

130, woah, tenchi comes out of no where and also expresses interests in my wagon (if need be).
@ tenchi, be a dear, and 1.) explain why my playstyle is reactive I was on page 4 asking for people to explain to me their cases, which reminds me, on page 4, you had a case on vollkan 2.) if you really thought vollkan was scum, why did you reiterate your case at that time? 3.) lets just have a little play time right now, lets say I was being reactive, how is that scummy? Wouldn’t it have been easier as scum to rehash someone else’s case add a couple lines and vote? (that’s reactive)..I actually think my asking people to put forward their cases again is proactive.

1a. THIS IS REALLY REACTIVE

caught up/checking in.

I dont see anything that has my hackles up yet, even with all the theory discussion and D1 finger pointing. Until I get said hackles going, anyone have questions about my stances on anyone or cases being made???

It apprars that you are waiting for people to call you attention, or you are waiting for other people to make cases on other people so that you can react on them later on. In other words, you have no plan to initiate discussion yourself.

1b/2. IF YOU WERE REALLY READING THE THREAD. It is clear, along with Incognitos and Hooplas reactions on me that I didn't have a case on Vollkan.

3. Again, being reactive is scummy because scum would rely on the initial naivety of town since they do not know who's who, allowing town to make blind, and wild suspicions. It would be advantageous for scum to avoid this D1 mess.
You asking people to participate is nowhere being proactive. I can put banners and posters to encourage people to post but unless you start asking questions and suspecting people, that can only take you so far.

First you attack me, and then you continue

the same

case on CKD that his playstyle is reactive. That is not the way it works, Tenchi. You act like you don't have an idea what you are doing.

Further, Meta is good. General tells are bad. Meta (whether you take this as playstyle or mental capabilities) is individual, and by definition more likely to be accurate. Voting people just for using meta is newbyish and counterproductive. Get a real case.

[Mr. Flay]

Votecount

Empking (1) -- Kinetic
vollkan (1) -- Kmd4390
curiouskarmadog (1) -- imaginality
Tenchi (1) -- SpyreX
Kinetic (4) -- Incognito, vollkan, Slicey, curiouskarmadog
mykonian (1) -- q21
q21 (4) -- Ojanen, mykonian, Empking, populartajo
Incognito (1) -- Hoopla
Hoopla (1) -- Tenchi

Not voting -- nobody!

15 alive, 8 to lynch. Remember that Day One will end on August 10th.

[imaginality]

Why I don't have any votes on me I'm not sure. In a short-deadline game like this, consistent activity is pretty important. DING, hypocrisy? No: I wasn't lurking strategically but I accept that even non-scummy lurking is antitown, and if need be I'll seek replacement rather than slip behind again.

Reading up now.

[Hoopla]

On Hoopla, the survey kind of reminds me of the new "RQS" trend that I strongly dislike. It distracts from actually placing votes and calling people scum and tends to stall actual reads from occuring. The other thing it does is make some people's subconcious think "this player is town because they are asking questions".

I can see Hoopla doing this intentionally. I wouldn't say the same for many players, but Hoopla, yeah.

WRONG LOL. I ACCIDENTALLY POSTED IT. WOOPS, MY BAD.

[Hoopla]

Unvote, vote: Incognito

I'm not usually a gut player, but he is very phony this game.

Shittiest reason I have seen thus far. Just because somebody does not choose to play the same as you expect them to doesn't make the scum. The overwhelming stench of using meta to jump on a new wagon is overwhelming.

Also, Hoopla, please answer Post 154.

UM, I DID. My answer was in post 163. Incognito hasn't answered that yet.

Also, I think if you didn't completely remove the rest of my post from the quote you've shown here, you'd see my justification is more than just 'HE'S PHONY!' Here, I'll post what you missed;

Post 47, on the other hand, is a pretty blatant strawman of my argument. Why would the tactic of clogging the thread with a questionairre necessarily need to be discussed in a QuickTopic before the game as some kind of strategy? I think it's equally as likely that a her-scum could have just done it completely on her own. Anywho, I'm gonna

unvote

because 44 seemed like a pretty good post to me.

If you think it's equally likely that I'd have done this as scum or town, why did you criticise me with such conviction that it was a scum tactic? You barely considered any town motivation for me to do this, which makes this explanation feel like a contradiction or at least a misrepresentation of what he was actually saying.

Thank you for agreeing with my theory about the game in post 44, but I am going to call you out on it, because I still don't think you are being honest with your intentions. You're unvoting me on the basis of theory talk, when you were attacking me for something non-theory. It looks more like you are now searching for a different reason to unvote me, rather than bring to light your attack on me was ill-conceived or exaggerated. You partially backed down, by claiming it was 'equally likely' for me to do it as scum or town, but it really strikes me the wrong way that you would seriously vote based on

that

, given what you say about it now. I don't think you'd be this stubborn as town. And I don't think your intentions to begin with and/or now make sense as town, because it looks like you're just casually trying to sweep it under the rug.

Unvote, vote: Incognito

I'm not usually a gut player, but he is very phony this game.

[imaginality]

Thoughts during my re-read:

Page 1

* I agree about ckd's in/vitational confusion being a townslip.
* q21's random-vote for Empking seems slightly weaselly, hoping for a policy-based wagon to start up?
* Slicey's answer to Q5 is the more suspicious than the 'my playstyle changes' answers, totally agree that it's a "Hey, don't pressure me 'til D3 or so please" plea-in-advance
* I notice Tenchi wanted 'more input' about the how-many-lynches question but it doesn't look like he followed up on this

Page 2

* Tajo's answers and vote seem genuine
* Vollkan dismissed answering the survey as 'pointless', but early in the game, isn't everything (including random votes) pointless until it leads to something more? I.e. this doesn't seem a good reason for not answering it anyhow
* I like SpyreX's questions
* Hoopla's setup discussion feels genuine
* Myko merely answering the survey seems a cautiously quiet entrance at this point

Page 3

* Kmd's laziness feels genuine

Page 4

* myko's pressure on Tenchi feels genuine
* Ojanen picked up the ckd towntell and Slicey's excuse-in-advance
* Empking's Hoopla vote feels more lazy
* q21's questions are bad, not scumhunting; myko picks up on this
* Kmd's reads feel genuine and aren't lazy ones
* ckd is vague, and a bit omgussy in reaction to mkyo when myko calls him on it

Page 5

* ckd now casts suspicion on others on the wagon on him but lightens up on myko
* Kinetic scum-slip: "not on my lynch

N1

list"
* Not sure I like the way q21 defends his early vote on Empking ("You thought that was a genuine attempt to get Emp lynched? Really? Wow...") - partly because taking early votes seriously is okay, and also I don't sense q21 would have been unhappy if a policy wagon/lynch had built up on Empking early on
* Kinetic's attack on Ojanen for her comments about him smells fishy

Page 6

* vollkan's post (131) is the point I made earlier with myko's quote (vollkan's RV after answering the survey wasn't scummy)
* Incognito is a bit wishywashy on myko, but gives good reasons for voting Kinetic
* Empking's dismissal of the roleplay counterargument is bad
* q21's test vote, yep, bad, and while his call of OMGUS is also bad, he has a better point later on (P7)
* Slicey votes kmd for laziness, lists K second - scum with K?
* Ojanen's vote on q21 is good, and myko's revote timing seems okay given later explanation; Empking's jump onto the q21 wagon is more opportunistic though

Page 7

* I can see q21's point; myko does seem a touch concerned about how he is perceived - wanting to make it clear he wasn't OMGUSsing on q21 for example; this echoes his cautious entrance into the game
* Tajo's reads seem reasonable at that point
* Hoopla's "bring[ing] out alignment information rather than genuinely finding me scummy" question to Incognito is a false dichotomy as Incognito later points out (to be fair Hoopla doesn't explicitly say it's either-or, though, it feels like a genuine question)
* vollkan in post 165 is good; I like his defense of ckd and vote of Kinetic
* Empking fails to give a good example of ckd misrepresenting
* Kinetic softclaims a hidden motive for his comment - not sure what to make of this; gut says scummy, but 172 sounds genuine

Page 8:

* Slicey is right that myko seems a bit jumpy - we see this again later with the myko-ckd exchange (the 'tunnelling' accusation)
* Kinetic defends meta reasons to lynch Empking; I think as far as the meta reasons go he sounds genuine
* vollkan's 185 is great, especially: "And the beauty of this setup is that the traditional argument for policy lynching early on doesn't apply so much; if Empking really does turn out to be a human trainwreck, we can lynch him later on and not sacrifice a day"
* Kinetic's stance in 186 that policy-lynching on D2 or later is bad is already destroyed by vollkan's point in the post above: this set-up creates the opportunity to policy-lynch later than usual
* Kmd's reads (vollkan-scum, Hoopla-scum, Empking-town) sound genuine albeit meta-y
* Tenchi's questions to me: "1. Should a policy lynch on Empking happen?" No, not on D1. Let's review the evidence from N1 and our reads on him during D2 and policy-lynch him D2 or thereabouts if required. "2. CKD has addressed suspicions of him on page 5. Reactions?" I liked ckd's defense of his own actions, but am bit wary of his eagerness to paint everyone on his wagon as suspicious.
* Ojanen vs vollkan feels town vs town
* Incognito calling out Kinetic for not scumhunting is a better point against Kinetic at the moment than Kinetic's policy-lynch stance; Kinetic's post 200 seems to recognise that maybe he's been tunnelled on the Empking point too much and clarifies his other reads
* SpyreX's comment about the game so far gives me a gut-town feel because I think my sense of a game is similar to his at times and I felt much the same as he did here, and needed a good deep reread to get my teeth back into this game

[Hoopla]

Hey imaginality, do you still endorse your ckd vote?

[imaginality]

Copleting my summary of where I'm at, here are my overall reads at this point:

* ckd has got into the game and been more active, and I am happy to remove my vote from him; I've liked his recent posts
* Empking hasn't shown he has anything of value to offer, and has failed to back up claims like the 'misrep' point. At this point, I can see an argument for a D2 policy lynch depending what we learn from the night and whether we get a clearer read on him. There's no reason to push through a policy lynch today though
* Hoopla I'm pretty happy with for the most part, good discussion, clear and reasoned stances
* Incognito I read as strongly town
* Kinetic I see as reasonably scummy for points noted above, and I'm not opposed to a Kinetic lynch, but I think I can get a clearer read by watching a bit longer and I think he has more to offer if he's town than some other players
* Kmd4390 is town; I disagree with his reads but they sound genuine
* Mykonian I'm interested in; I think I have a slight tendency to equate activity with towniness which I'm trying to correct for. Mykonian's been active, but I sense a certain caution and reactiveness to other's opinions of him. He's someone I plan to meta this weekend.
* Ojanen's one of my stronger town-reads
* populartajo I don't know yet; next step is to re-read him in iso. Not a D1 lynch candidate though
* q21, I'd be happy with a lynch of; several scummy points and not offered much
* Slicey I'm happy with but would be good to hear more from
* SpyreX ditto but more neutral
* Tenchi - too many words; another one to iso. I see some confused and/or poor points made by him but he's been pretty active so maybe they're outweighed by good points. Not a D1 lynch anyhow
* vollkan seems to be generating some differences of opinion. For me, I read him as town and like the points he's been making

Unvote; Vote: q21

[imaginality]

No, I think ckd responded well to the pressure put on him.

[mykonian]

@Imaginality, just to make your work easier. I've heard that I seem to be touchy/cautious etc. more often. If this is observed, it is usually on day one. Accusations against me don't seem that serious to you, and I seem to overreact on them. The reason mostly is that it hasn't been uncommon that I got lynched day 1 by people all voting me for different little reasons. I'd rather seem a little cautious then let that happen here. (see also my answer at Hoopla's question)

Activity is not a towntell for me.

[SpyreX]

Well, that's what's bugging me. If you still like Tenchi as scum, I'd think you might start trying to look into this alternate wagon stuff that's been happening with Kinetic to see if anything could possibly be drawn from that. Instead, you haven't really commented on it nor have you shared thoughts on Kinetic either. You have no opinion on any of that?

I sat down and reread that debacle and I do have an opinion now.

Its silly. And bad. And of:

Kinetic (4) -- Incognito, vollkan, Slicey, curiouskarmadog

That group of four there is a scum.

And while you're not going to get a faaabulous case from me on why I'm going to call out... *gasp* slicey. You will get this exchange:

I haven't liked a thing Kinetic has written so far.

His first "real" post seems like a whole lot of noise since it's merely a summary of all of his experiences with all of the players. He describes it as getting his meta experience out of the way just in case he needs to call on it later, but I'm not sure I buy that explanation - it's not like Kinetic went into elaborate detail about each and every person he's played with so far; he kept things pretty vague, imo. He's didn't bother to comment on a thing that's happened here so far in that post, and he certainly hasn't seemed to do so in his subsequent posts either. And I reeeeeeeeeeally don't like the policy lynch vote on Empking - I disagree completely that Empking will become a "distraction as town" - it's not like we're completely unable to prod and probe the guy and ask him questions about his stances - and slipping by as scum? How exactly would that happen?

vote: Kinetic

Goddamit just lost my post. >__> I'll try to remember what I wrote.

Tajo, explain to me your reads on Myk and CKD. You say you like the case on CKD, yet you think he's town? I'm kinda confused. Also, why do you think myk is obvious town? He seems a little jumpy to me IMO. I don't necessarily think he's scum, but I definitely don't think he's obvtown as you say.

Kinetic, what I don't understand is, is that you keep talking about how bad Empking is in other games and how much of a liability he is, yet you're not commenting on him in THIS game, which is what actually matters. Empking has made enough posts that you can comment on, whether you think it's townie posts or scummy posts, yet you have said nothing on him in this game. You're voting him and attacking him for nothing he's done in this game, but his meta and reputation alone.

For that, I will Unvote, Vote: Kinetic.

I'm not liking anything he's saying.

I'll just Mega FoS: KMD

That similarity is jarring. Enough that it raised my cackles. I'd be shocked and awed if they were scum together though.

That said:

The majority of the Kinetic business revolves around a policy lynch on Empking. While

normally

that is eye raising because policy lynches are a great way to "waste" a day's lynch

that isn't the case here at all

. We can have cake and eat it too!

The only thing that Kinetic has said that made me worried is when he said he'd stop pushing this d2 because this setup gives every reason to keep pushing it.

Which leads to the far more important point. We need lynches. Plural. I still want two and there's been a lot of inactivity that seems designed to keep just that from happening (yea, yea, I know I've been a nonfactor).

Of the set now I'd be down for Tenchi, q21, ckd and slicey at the moment. KMD and Empking wouldn't make me cry.

Of the more active(s) as time progresses I'm more worried about Hoop and absolutely not worried about Volk and the weird parity there with KMD's input also raises an eye.

Its not quite OHH SNAP TOWN BUSINESS but in the remainder there's some pretty clear towns I'd ride to the bank.

[Hoopla]

No, SpyreX. We're having one lynch today. It's absolutely stupid lynching two players with NO information. It is guess work, and purely egotistical if any townsfolk expect to lynch scum D1 from nothing, in a scummies game, no less. Lets save the numbers for a double/triple lynch tomorrow and the next day, seriously.

And why do you hate me, Spy? How's about you come and help Hoops lynch Incognito.

[SpyreX]

I'm not expecting ohh snap scum while it would be nice - I want the raw data and I am a gambler. Hell I said I'd like two waaaay back when.

I'm really not seeing Incog as scum be the big thing. You're tweaking me out because you had a start I liked and then have traiiiled off some. Definitely not for lynching at the moment but its there.

And everything I say there and you comment on me wanting two lynches?

[Hoopla]

And everything I say there and you comment on me wanting two lynches?

It's the thing I disagreed with most. Although, you didn't really bring up that much beyond a handful of personal reads. The Slicey thing was meh. The scum on Kinetic's wagon was meh, but probably right. I am certainly not feeling that wagon, even if I'm opposed to his Empking stance. The persona pushing the Kinetic wagon is more suspicious than Kinetic himself.

*shrug*

[SpyreX]

If you agree with me but its Meh I'm assuming you think its Incog?

At the rate this is going we're going to have a single lynch at deadline so my argument for two is academic but.

[Ojanen]

@mod

: please prod q21.

[Patrick]

q21 prodded.

[Kinetic]

Kinetic's stance in 186 that policy-lynching on D2 or later is bad is already destroyed by vollkan's point in the post above: this set-up creates the opportunity to policy-lynch later than usual

I completely disagree with both Voll's assertion and your belief that its a good idea to policy lynch later in game. It has nothing to do with the fact that we CAN do multiple lynches, but everything to do with the demeanor of the game. Day 1 there is rarely a lot of information, we need to lynch someone, and with this game, we can lynch multiple someones, making Day 1 in particular ideal for a policy lynch since we can take care of that and proceed with another lynch should there be enough support.

However, once we pass Day 1 we have a lot more information to work with, more urgent concerns, and the ability to question players based more on game knowledge then anything else. At that point using Meta to do anything but support a case is extraordinarily scummy in my book.

If we are going to policy lynch, it happens Day 1. Bringing up a policy lynch after that is not even CLOSE to a town move. Its distracting, doesn't rely on in-game reasoning (and thus perfect for scum), and is something that should and CAN be taken care of much in advance. In most other situations these charges would be perfectly fair to level against me for pushing this, and for the most part they are accurate. I assert that the nature of Day 1 and the multiple lynches in this game, however, provide ample reason to push on despite those points.

Saying "we can do it later" is akin to saying "Well if I'm scum I can hold off on this now and then when I need a distraction or mislynch later I'll bring up these policy points." No. Absolutely not.

You are either on board NOW or you give up all right to policy lynch after Day 1. I will relentlessly tunnel and try and lynch anyone who tries to pull a policy lynch after today for ANY reason save perhaps LAL if they can be proven to have lied (which really isn't a policy lynch in my opinion but some might argue otherwise).

[mykonian]

Vollkan makes a good point: in a game with this kind of players, we shouldn't be distracted by the one or two weird players we have. We should lynch scum. If Empking is scum, we'll lynch him. If he isn't, we'll keep him. No need to make the game easier for scum by lynching people who we think to be likely town.

With the amount of support for a Q21 lynch, if nothing changes after this prod (remember me, Q21, didn't you lurk too in our game when you got under pressure?), I think we should lynch him. There is no need waiting for the deadline, as we can discuss after the lynch. Further, this frees the game up for discussion about the amount of lynches, wagon analysis (without one person already killed) etc. I think that if Q21 can't convince us now we are completely wrong, he won't ever. Better get it done then in stead of letting the game drag out. There is no penalty, as we aren't shortening the day.

[Incognito]

Kinetic: Fair enough.

Hoopla: I already responded to 163. What are you talking about?

unvote, vote: SpyreX

This doesn't leave Kinetic off the hook, but I'm not liking post 211 at all. SpyreX, what's so bad about two people agreeing with one another? What about those quotes makes you dislike Slicey?


Seriously, my "who I would lynch" Today list is beginning to look something like this:

Kinetic
SpyreX
populartajo

Tajo's more a gut thing right now; I'm having real trouble believing that he thinks my reaction to Hoopla's questionairre was unnatural. I mean, DGB who isn't even in this game commented on it and seemed to lean town on me because of it. I really think a tajo-town would've shared a similar thought process to DGB for some reason. Plus he's way too lurky here for my taste.

[SpyreX]

Agreeing isn't bad.

Using the same terminology without referencing it is sneaky and dirty pool.

[imaginality]

Kinetic, earlier you said: "I do think its inevitable that [Empking] will be lynched even if its not today." So it seems your concern about leaving him 'til D2 or so boils down to the "it distracts from scumhunting" angle. I just don't see why that should be the case. With single lynch games, it wastes a day. With this game, it's easy enough to say, "blah blah, vote X, oh and p.s. empking is still useless, let's lynch him too". It's just whereas for some players, our attitude D2 will be "we will lynch you if you're scummy, but not lynch you if you're neutralish or pro-town," with Empking it might well be a higher threshold, more of a, "we will lynch you if you're scummy or neutralish, but not lynch you if you're highly pro-town." It's not using policy-lynching instead of in-game knowledge, it's using it to judge whether the in-game knowledge is sufficiently strong in his case for him to avoid being lynched.

To further reduce possibilities of discussion being derailed, we might want to consider pseudo-voting tomorrow; it could make sense in this setup anyhow. We can all pseudo-vote/unvote multiple players if we want to, and once any player gets enough pseudovotes to hit the lynch threshold, we lynch them for real. That will make it easier to spot any scum players who use "let's lynch Empking" as an alternative to scumhunting or listing other suspects.

Or are you worried that a cop will have an innocent result on him and we'll have to let him stay alive and he'll lose it for town in endgame? I imagine our cop, if we have one, will investigate someone else, to avoid exactly that dilemma.

In any case, if you want him lynched today, why not come help us lynch q21 first and then we can talk more.

[vollkan]

I bolded the word that is most important in my first sentence. I'm not looking for it both ways, I said I don't think its is TOO scummy, however I do think it is at least slightly scummy.

Okay. Since the second sentence in your post was specifically addressing the scenario where Emp is scum, am I right in my understanding that your first sentence is saying that you find defending Emp slightly scummy irrespective of his alignment?

If my interpretation is correct, why?

And yes, should Empking flip scum I will take renewed interest in all those who opposed his lynch so heavily.

X opposes Emp's lynch. Emp flips scum. Do you think X is scummy/er?

These are his last 5 or so games on the site (the last being a game that recently ended but which he was removed from early), all happening within a very close period to each other. If I pulled deeper I'm sure the trend would continue based on my own experience with him. He is more than mediocre in his own ability, he compounds that by being very unresponsive, inability to listen to reason, generally lurky, and an overall hindrance. Is he the worst player I've ever played with? No. Is it enough that if possible, on a game where lynches are relatively cheap that if could get rid of him day 1 I would. Yes.

There are plenty of lousy players on site. That rarely means that it is better risking a potential decrease in the town's numbers.

Now, I remember the specific instance as to a game I played with Empking, (the B5 one). In that game we were masons together, had an absurd amount of information on the set up, and I was able to break the game privately with him within 1 week of game time. His character was immortal as long as mine was alive. For nearly a week I tried to talk to him, get anything from him, and it was like pulling teeth. Additionally I wanted HIM to present the information since he would not be subject to the retaliation that I KNEW would come from the scum for breaking the game so heavily and he would soak up NKs.

Instead with deadline approaching and no response from him I was forced to come forward with my information. The LAST ditch effort to try and salvage something was I suggested we swap roles and I claim to be the immortal one and if pressured he claim to be my "Achilles Heel", so he could soak NKs and allow us to survive at least one additional day. What does he do? He pretty much full claims in thread.

It wasn't mediocre play in that instance, it was completely horrible play where if he would have listened, or participated we could have crushed the game. However, at best despite all I did to break the game I wa only able to succeed at a partial win.

Now this was nearly 2 years ago, but I have not seen in any game that he has become a better player.

I am NOT the only player in this game saying that. I am the only one willing to put my vote behind it.

Have you seen anything equally or worse in his play since?

So far the most common defense is that "policy lynching" is bad, which is more of a general defense then specifically "policy lynching Empking is bad".

The general presumption is that policy lynching is bad.

It's incumbent on you to show us that "policy lynching Empking is good". You've shown us that Empking is a bad player, and frankly you have at least made a case reasonable enough that I don't think you are scummy for pushing the policy lynch; I'm just not convinced that he currently is so bad as to justify his lynch and the associated risk.

Vollkan asked what Hoopla wanted to accomplish with the survey. He didn't answer the survey, but he didn't give his thoughts on the fact that Hoopla posted it. While it doesn't look cautious at first glance, it really is. If he is scum, he isn't answering the survey because he doesn't know what Hoopla is looking for.

1) Asking what Hoopla hoped to achieve with the survey was perfectly legitimate. If he is going to push a new opening strategy, it's completely legitimate to ask what he sees the benefit to be.
2) It's pretty ridiculous that you would interpret my actions as scum-motivated cautiousness because I didn't "know what Hoopla was looking for". Every single one of his questions was clear in what it meant and my actions are entirely explicable as a genuine inquiry as to the point of Hoopla's survey. You've provided absolutely no explanation as to why it is better to interpret my actions as scum-motivated.

The next thing he does is attempt to discredit me when I say he may be scum. He doesn't ask why like a normal person would. He just says I'm useless and he doesn't understand why I didn't elaborate. No request to elaborate, just a mention of the fact that I didn't.

What on earth is your point? I said:

vollkan might be scum.

A statement of "X might be scum" or "Y might be town" has to rank among the most useless things that can be said in this game. If what you meant is that you actually have reason for thinking I am scum, then I can't see why you wouldn't elaborate to convince other people.

Ignoring for starters the fact that, if you had any decent reasons for thinking that I "may be scum" (which, objectively, applies to everybody, thus making it useless), you should have said them yourself rather than waiting for a "request", it's nothing short of ridiculous that you would now attack me because I didn't "ask" you to explain yourself with a question-mark, rather than doing as I did which was attacking a seemingly redundant statement by you.

Day 2+ are not the time for policy lynches. If it is not done today, I will not support it on policy grounds.

As I have already said, that doesn't matter in this game. We don't waste a day's lynch on a policy lynch, so if Empking really is a problem, we CAN lynch him later on.

At that point I voted for vollkan because he had the most votes at that time.

What did you hope to achieve my increasing the number of votes on me?

"Everyone has plenty of persona to spill over" is, to me, a simple and evident statement. There is a distinct scent of their specific type of consciousness in every post everyone writes. Playing mafia (even playing something more abstract in regards to personality such as tennis) is something that exposes character. You can take a role but anything involving for example confrontation will make you want to instinctively act in a way that is natural to you. Playstyle has a strong correlation to personality, and even if you consciously try to completely manipulate it, it's likely you will change mostly the surface. So that part is not an attack but a simple fact to me.

"Overtly self-unaware answer" was the offensive part. And Tenchi's answer is still alienly self-unaware to me. But looking at his later posting after RVS: this, and this and this, basically every post has several things that just seem to me like he is putting very little thought into what he's writing (least of everyone in the game including Empking [PREVIEW EDIT: well, this latest post is not really in that same category, haven't read it carefully yet though]), like he's commenting quickly and impulsively and doesn't think through, doesn't value pondering. And in that context his answer no longer seems unnatural as it seemed early on. Like Hoopla elaborated, someone with an unusually naive style.

I don't see how that tone comes across so strong to you that it would be at odds with what I said now. I wrote the original line before I considered my own exact response as I explained and then left it there despite having to think about my own answer, maybe that comes across in the tone or something, but I don't really see that myself.

Your original post said:

Overtly self-unaware answer. Everyone has plenty of persona to spill over.

In that context, I interpreted "Everyone has plenty of persona to spill over" as you saying that "everybody has so much personality that Tenchi should have been able to explain his own", but I can now see that you could also have meant, if I am following you now, "everybody has a distinct personality, so Tenchi should be able to explain his own" (the latter being much less strong than the former)

However, once we pass Day 1 we have a lot more information to work with, more urgent concerns, and the ability to question players based more on game knowledge then anything else. At that point using Meta to do anything but support a case is extraordinarily scummy in my book.

That's rubbish. If Empking is clearly a problem, it takes less than a page to string him up no matter what day it is. There's absolutely no reason why a later policy lynch is impracticable. Similarly, there's absolutely no reason why we should rush into a policy lynch on somebody who

may

be problematic when we are in a game where, uniquely, we actually have the option of keeping them around and seeing if they are crap or scummy.

[Slicey]

Kinetic, what I don't understand is, is that you keep talking about how bad Empking is in other games and how much of a liability he is, yet you're not commenting on him in THIS game, which is what actually matters. Empking has made enough posts that you can comment on, whether you think it's townie posts or scummy posts, yet you have said nothing on him in this game. You're voting him and attacking him for nothing he's done in this game, but his meta and reputation alone.

For that, I will

Unvote, Vote: Kinetic

. I'm not liking anything he's saying.

I'll just

Mega FoS: KMD

Slicey, nice side-step.

Now I want you to say how my argument is actually wrong. You say you don't like the argument and you want him judged on other factors (principally the 5 posts he's made in this game) and ignore the many many many games he's played elsewhere on the site.

I suppose this may be a valid argument, however, it would be a lot stronger if for some reason my argument was flawed or that you could weaken my argument some.

As it stands the two are merely parallel arguments, neither really disproves or removes from the other, but I would say mine is stronger if only on the fact that Empking's contribution so far in this game is not very strong.

Generally I don't lynch on meta alone, however, its Day 1, in a game where multiple lynches are possible in a single day. This is the optimal position for a policy lynch based on his previous play and I endorse it.

Show me otherwise and we can talk, or show me that Empking's contributions here outweigh his previous very bad play. I don't feel you can or that he has so far.

Hell, Empking hasn't even stood up to defend himself, so far everyone else is. I'd love to hear what he thinks.

What I'm trying to say is it that you're not giving him a chance. His contribution in this game is minimal, but still enough to comment on. What do you think of his play so far? Do you think he's scummy in this game? Does his meta support him being scummy? What I'm saying is you should use his play in conjunction with his meta, but you seem to be ignoring his play completely. And if you don't think he's made enough contribution to form an opinion on, then wait until he posts more. If he doesn't and he lurks or refuses to contribute, then I'd be for lynching him.

Just so you know, I'm not completely against his lynch, I'm just against a policy lynch of him. I currently don't have a good read on him.