Open 236 - Pamplona Mafia (C9++) Game Over

[Netlava]

Not knowing what active lurking means isn't a scum tell, but I think some of the other things Fonz has been saying could be.

The fact that he bothered to differentiate between the 2 is what bothers me.

[Netlava]

@drmyshottyizsik: Just curious, did you "meta" me btw?

[drmyshottyizsik]

yep

[Beefster]

1) You kinda contradicted yourself there, saying it was Ythan who was too lazy to go back and quote himself. That implies that the answers were there, and therefore Ythan was in the right.

^Misinterpretation. It happens. I can't read minds either.

The thought process I went through was this:
-He claims he answered the questions, which I'm not seeing.
-If he thought he answered the questions, why didn't he go back and quote what he thought to be the answer?
-He covers it up by labeling it as spoonfeeding to quote the answer he claims to have.
-I see this as hiding something because he refused to answer a question clearly.

2) Overly defensive is a scum argument. Also, to my mind, he wasn't defensive, he was attacking- trying to place pressure on a minor point to get the game going. This to my mind is slightly townish, as it reads as trying to create an argument to get the game going. I've also attacked players in the past for seemingly being unable to keep their story straight about their reasons for their random votes.

He was attacking a totally non-threatening random vote. It got the activity going, but that's not necessarily pro-town.

[Prox]

Never said it was.

That thing about shotty asking for meta surprised me- that's a first for him, period.

I'll be looking at your meta, also, however. Since that was brought to my attention..

Speaking of which, again, Ythan uses his spoonfeeding excuse in both alliances in the same way he's done Today. If you're going to call him scummy, don't do it through that.

I don't want to go any further until I get my Desktop back.

[Netlava]

I will be

V/LA until August 9

Noted. ~~NS

[Ythan]

I find it suspect that in your four posts you have answered no questions that I have not answered, and that if you think I haven't done so satisfactorily you have not followed up yourself. Blatantly hopping onto my wagon with no proper justification.

You can't tell me what answers I should be satisfied with.

Does this mean anything or are you just griping?

Ok gere goes my thoughts on what has happened lately.
Dry is lurking and being unuseful.
My opinion on beef is that he is dumb and VI'ish
I think the vote count has it right, Ythan and Net are pretty scummy
I think no one should be lynched untill we hear more from Dry Ald and Ekim

Are you actually in this game or are you just reading along?

yep

I'm going to call bullshit on you actually following it up. Easy active lurking.

[The Fonz]

At Netlava: Zajnet is the worst active lurker.

Umm, do you know what active lurking is? I've been straight up lurking because I've been out of town. Active lurking would be if I was posted on a regular basis, but with no content. Anyways, expect more later today.

Funnily enough, having played on the site for three years, I have come across active lurking, but nonetheless, I do find your condescending douchiness refreshing. [/sarcasm]

You've been

V/LA

because you've been out of town. You know when I said 'The worst active lurker is V/LA?' That. I wasn't holding that against you, in fact, it's the reason I didn't vote you then (it's pointless trying to pressure someone who isn't there). What I am holding against you is your lack of content up to that point, and your attempt to pass your fence-sitting off as 'just my playstyle.' THAT is active lurking.

At Netlava: Zajnet is the worst active lurker.

Active lurking means that a person is trying to appear active without posting anything of substance and a definite cause for suspicion. I'm curious why you said Zajnet was active lurking without placing any suspicion on him.

What the hell gives you the impression that I had no suspicion of him?

PROX!!!!!!!! HI!

What do you think of what's been happening since you last posted? I really don't like how you take the time to post but don't even comment on stuff. That's called active lurking, Fonz, in case the explanations didn't clarify enough.
.

You're an asshat. That means I don't like you very much.

Not knowing what active lurking means isn't a scum tell, but I think some of the other things Fonz has been saying could be. For example, his case on Beefster seems very contrived.

Funny, I found Beefster's case contrived. That's why I, y'know, voted him.

[Prox]

Oh no. I'm surrounded by paranoid superiors...

You'll have to forgive my tone this first post. It's far too upbeat and casual for you guys. But it'll be my only one like that. I promise. I need it to get

into

the game, you know?

unvote, vote netlava

I can't think of any protown benefit of answering that particular question. I can think of a problem (as Al pointed out). This suggests Netlava didn't really think about it very much, and just went for go with the flow approach.

I like this logic.

FoS Netlava

Dr, you're scum. Your hop onto Net is disingenuous and your demand that he provide meta to dispute it as well. Beef, how can you suspect just me OR Net if the basis of your suspicion is that we're both scum?

(vote: drmyshottyizsik?)

Why am I scummy? And ythan, I like meta reading people

You. I found this thread and the Mod's sig while I was building your wiki. Speaking of which, I am not amused.

Unvote, vote: drmyshottyizsik

Yeah, I don't believe that one can make assessments on my playstyle that quickly. If you really like meta so much, you would have learned about the search feature by now.

Well, pro or antitown is an opinion, so can't really be a mischaracterisation.

Well, the wording kinda bothered me at first, but I can see what people are having problems with now.

I'll make you a wiki. That will solve your problem.

Why am I scummy? And ythan, I like meta reading people

That's fine. I called your in-thread request for it disingenuous.

Lol. Firefox quickly defined that as "lacking in candor". I'm so glad I didn't pay for that app.

Me too, but of course it was on me.

So is my name really that annoying to type out?

Yes. ~~NS

Yes!
Trust me, I know. But I've memorized it O.o

the oppertunistic vote, so im kind of a bias voice.

@ NS It's not that hard!!! G & H is the only one who ever spells it out though

@ NS It's not that hard!!! G & H is the only one who ever spells it out though

@ NS It's not that hard!!!

@ NS

The irony is amusing.

I chose a really short name so this wouldn't happen. If it ever does, I will likely rage.

Then you don't believe me. What am I supposed to freak out about it or try to prove to you what I was thinking? No. I was speculating on the setup and thinking about the one kill.

Oh. I thought you were trying to make scum slip :/
Thank you for clarifying.

Knowing how players in this game would act as a vigilante, a role whose actions are immediately apparent if successful, would aid in my speculation. I was trying to narrow it down but in this complicated setup that really won't be fruitful for some time.

No, finding the number of players who would vig would narrow down the people who would be a vig and out them to the mafia. That is extremely anti-town.

Yea1!1

No. What makes you say that?

The reason you gave for voting me is a lie. Had i not said that very plainly?

No.

Okay. What makes it disingenuous?

It does not. Read. As genuine. Next.

It was hard to understand this. I took it as: "It does not! Read the stinkin' thread! ..." At that point I got confused and read harder. Stop making me do that.

Ythan, please answer the question on everyone's lips, which is to explain why you suggested asking everyone if they liked vigging N0 in the first place. What were you trying to achieve?

You're only asking him to reiterate his scummy answer.

I'm usually at least somewhat sarcastic. I have no idea if I'm being particularly sarcastic/cutting in this game. I don't have a sarcasm meter Firefox add-on that tells me if I've reached my sarcasm quota for a particular post.

I did. It didn't work well.

I have

directly

referred back to such instances on at least one occasion. I'm not going to keep spoonfeeding you because you can't bother read through the five page thread.

This must happen to you a lot ^^

This isn't an issue of pride it's an issue of the same stupid anti-town behavior I see all the time when people can't read a thread to answer their own damn questions.

Bingo. Have you considered the possibility that the problem isn't caused by the stupid players?

You don't need a dictionary to know that disingenuous = not being genuine. So your logic is one big circle of he's scummy because he's scummy.

Oh. Well, then. >.>

I did not say he is disingenuous being he's not being genuine, actually.

Um... (Ythan said:)"It does not. Read. As genuine. Next." So I misread this?

tautology?

Okay, now I'm annoyed. I thought I was smart.

Ugh. Spoonfeed mode. It, what you quoted, is not what you, Alduskkel, said that I, Ythan, said, tautology.

Its close enough.

You foolish fool. How many times do I have to say gut. Gut gut gut. Gut gut. Intestines bowels. Sphincter.

Same difference. Your gut says it isn't genuine.

Reading Ythan is kinda hard since... y'know, people don't normally admit that there is absolutely no protown reason for their actions.

I should start doing this. Makes me less accountable.

I have trouble with ending pointless discussions on my own. Why are you still asking irrelevant questions instead of ones that might contribute to something useful? If you think that last question had some purpose other than keeping your post count up, please enlighten me.

Oh my.

Al, then dr.

Please don't call me Pr.

Yab I believe that Dr's request for my suspects was an attempt to appear active. However, I'll give you a top scummies list.

He's been here for a month and /inned to 15 games.

The votecount has not changed.

@Mod: Could you post the vote counts anyways when this happens? Makes things easier. More visible.

Unless you can make some meager attempt to show where I'm hiding something you're blowing smoke. Despite all the outlandish obfuscation in this thread I have seen no attempt to explain how I'm actually hiding anything. It's on the verge of getting pathetic.

Maybe the reason you wanted to help the scum find out who the vig(s) might be?
Hidden by your general posting style?

One, no. I had already posted the answers to his inane questions. That more or less invalidates the next few lines. However, two, even if it didn't, your leap to "hiding something" verges on stupid. You already have a conclusion you like and you're making a wild leap from what evidence you have (although, see point one) to that conclusion. As for your discomfort about my response to his "random" vote, that is almost LESS than ZERO percent relevant somehow. Are you just looking for filler to stretch the post out or do you think that actually helps your case?

Speaking of which, how did the answer read as not genuine? What was going on in your head to reach this conclusion?

Furthermore, I reread and did an ISO, and I'm not at all liking how overly defensive he was about Alduskkel's RANDOM vote.

2) Overly defensive is a scum argument. Also, to my mind, he wasn't defensive, he was attacking- trying to place pressure on a minor point to get the game going. This to my mind is slightly townish, as it reads as trying to create an argument to get the game going. I've also attacked players in the past for seemingly being unable to keep their story straight about their reasons for their random votes.

...or at least a weak one.

FoS Beefster

(I'll come back to this. Maybe.)

Also, to clarify my stance on drmyshottyizsik, I'm a bit suspicious of his meta incident and his fluff, and he's also been quite lurkish.

Maybe I'm being naive, but none of these seem to make shotty seem scummy to me.

PROX!!!!!!!! HI!

Such a pro-town post.

I don't think there's actually a scum motivation for being obnoxious, so I don't see the attacks on Ythan.

The attacks are based on more than that.

A

bit

more.

Ok

here

goes my thoughts on what has happened lately.
Dry is lurking and being

useless

.
My opinion on beef is that he is dumb and VI'ish
I think the vote count has it right, Ythan and Net are pretty scummy
I think no one should be lynched

until

we hear more from Dry Ald and Ekim

Who is dry again? At first, before looking at the author a second time (bad short-term memory I have), I thought you were talking about you. O.o
Your opinion on beef is inaccurate. And harsh.
Why do you think Ythan and Net are scummy? List. Be accurate.

Also my views havent changed to much

Really? More on this later.

yep

...and?

He was attacking a totally non-threatening random vote. It got the activity going, but that's not necessarily pro-town.

Weird, yes. But scummy? What was scum-Ythan thinking by both catalyzing discussion and bringing attention to himself? Since when is getting activity going a bad thing?

Funny, I found Beefster's case contrived. That's why I, y'know, voted him.

Weird. I guess I missed that.

I just learned that I have to use a spell-check to get the world weird right O.o

***

I don't like
Netlava
Ythan
Drmyshottyizsik
Beefster
or this one guy who's post I never quoted for some reason and thus forgot about.

Time to narrow down things. To make a serious post.

[The Fonz]

Prox, are you a Mastin alt?

[yabbaguy]

Preemptive: No.

More later.

[Prox]

Prox, are you a Mastin alt?

No. [joke]Mastin is a Prox alt.[/joke]

What made you think so?

***

So another more serious post to occur when I get Desktop back. Then I vote.

[yabbaguy]

Mastin responds sentence-at-a-time. Sometimes fragment-of-sentence-at-a-time.

But he also talks funny, while your English is rather straightforward.

[Prox]

Um...thanks. I believe in straightforwardness.

[ekiM]

More the way he's made a massive wall of text, a lot of which seems to be irrelevant or trivial. Please, please, please try and trim and focus on what's important. It's impossible to read a post like that and get anything useful out of it.

[Prox]

Like I said in the beginning- that's my First-Post. It'll never happen again.

[ekiM]

[Fonz]'s case on Beefster seems very contrived.

How so specifically?

Not knowing what active lurking means isn't a scum tell, but I think some of the other things Fonz has been saying could be.

The fact that he bothered to differentiate between the 2 is what bothers me.

Why does that bother you?

@drmyshottyizsik: Just curious, did you "meta" me btw?

yep

Which games did you read? What conclusions did you draw?

1) You kinda contradicted yourself there, saying it was Ythan who was too lazy to go back and quote himself. That implies that the answers were there, and therefore Ythan was in the right.

^Misinterpretation. It happens. I can't read minds either.

The thought process I went through was this:
-He claims he answered the questions, which I'm not seeing.
-If he thought he answered the questions, why didn't he go back and quote what he thought to be the answer?
-He covers it up by labeling it as spoonfeeding to quote the answer he claims to have.
-I see this as hiding something because he refused to answer a question clearly.

Can you give an example of what he might be hiding?

[Ythan attacked] a totally non-threatening random vote. It got the activity going, but that's not necessarily pro-town.

How can getting activity going be anti-town?

[The Fonz]

More the way he's made a massive wall of text, a lot of which seems to be irrelevant or trivial.

Bingo, and also the sentence or two of quote, sentence of response, another quote structure. Prox, bear in mind people HATE Mastin, and some are willing to policy lynch him just for being him because of the negative impact posts like that have on the game (although at least so far you have not shown the worst part of Mastin's game, that is, his tendency to repeat himself in slightly different wording). It would be helpful if your posts were more concise and kept to that info which is strictly relevant, for all our sakes.

(Odds on someone interpreting this as coaching? Short).

[yabbaguy]

(Odds on someone interpreting this as coaching? Short).

Why are you preemptively deflecting suspicions?

[Prox]

PREVIEW EDIT: Oh my. This hasn't happened before. But don't worry, my playstyle isn't anti-town in any obvious functions. Except:

I do not role claim at L-1 unless sure of a hammer

. Remember that for later. And, like I said, my first-post is more for me than for you, though in this way indirectly for you.

vote shotty

: you get my first vote because you might be town, but right now you suck and look...disingenuous. But I read you as a lazy town who doesn't want to go through the effort of trying. Fix this.

@Netlava:

No, I don't disagree.

Why not?

Blatantly anti-town? That seems like a mischaracterization. I was about to answer the question, but then decided to see if there were any objections first.

That doesn't mean you should support it the proposal. I call this bull.

@drmyshottizsik

What made you think that it was a playstyle issue?

Has shotty answered this yet? If he has, I might.

EDIT: Shotty should answer this question.

***

@Beefster:

I'm not complaining. I'm just saying where I've been. I wanted to post earlier but couldn't.

This makes you seem unnecessarily apprehensive.

I thought I posted pretty recently. Maybe I just didn't feel I had anything to add. Anyway, I've been wanting to say this for a while but forgot.

I'm not liking how Ythan is refusing to (basically) defend himself calling it spoonfeeding. Recapping is NOT spoonfeeding. I'd say spoonfeeding is more like building someone else's case for them. You're obviously hiding something.

Could you elaborate what Ythan is obviously hiding by not recapping?

@Ythan: When Alduskkel was pressing you for answers, you refused to answer him by calling it spoonfeeding. In reality you never actually answered the questions. I think it was YOU who was too lazy to read the thread and quote yourself for answers. Therefore you are hiding something.

Furthermore, I reread and did an ISO, and I'm not at all liking how overly defensive he was about Alduskkel's RANDOM vote.

My vote stands.

This post doesn't make sense. So you do think Ythan was just dodging the question or that he was too lazy to go back and find them or too... Ythanic (pronounced EE-Than-ic; term soon to be patented)... to realize that he never answered the question?

2) Overly defensive is a scum argument. Also, to my mind, he wasn't defensive, he was attacking- trying to place pressure on a minor point to get the game going. This to my mind is slightly townish, as it reads as trying to create an argument to get the game going. I've also attacked players in the past for seemingly being unable to keep their story straight about their reasons for their random votes.

He was attacking a totally non-threatening random vote. It got the activity going, but that's not necessarily pro-town.

I'll restate this in this now-serious post:

Weird, yes. But scummy? What was scum-Ythan thinking by both catalyzing discussion and bringing attention to himself? Since when is getting activity going a bad thing?

Clarify: You haven't explained sufficiently the reason that Ythan's attack on a nonthreatening random vote is scummy.

***

@Shotty:

And ythan, I like meta reading people

Since when??

Yes, either he is scum or his playstyle is anti town. I would like to meta read him. NETLAVA SEND ME A LINK OF YOU PLAYING TOWN AND MAFIA PLEASE

His whole play-style? Clarify.

Also, what were you hoping to find in Netlava's recent games? I think I know, but I don't want to assume.

Ythan, are you scum?

Why did you ask this? The tone and setting seems serious.

I don't know, maybe he is your partner and you didn't want him to fall through the cracks too early, but when you realized he was just a dumb ass you backed off

I got an entirely different read from that altercation you speak of.

Also: this view seems to suggest that you believe beef is scummy. But then you call him a VI (again, harsh). What is it?

Ok gere goes my thoughts on what has happened lately.
Dry is lurking and being unuseful.
My opinion on beef is that he is dumb and VI'ish
I think the vote count has it right, Ythan and Net are pretty scummy
I think no one should be lynched untill we hear more from Dry Ald and Ekim

This sounds like Good & Honest, not playing the game but still a part of it. You aren't G&H: PLAY THE GAME.

Also my views havent changed to much

So I'm going to have to assume that reading netlava's meta didn't change your opinion of him? Tell us what you found.

***

@Ythan:

Al, provide a reason for your vote on me.

Why did you ask for this?

Why didn't you believe Al's answer?

Before anyone answers, does anyone disagree with asking everyone what their policy is on shooting N0 as a vig?

Why did you ask this question?

Insistent on not accompanying his vote with any kind of random vote stage flavor, yet then felt it necessary to question me regarding my brief entry post, despite the fact that some players had not even posted and in fact still have not. Inquisitive but not about anything useful;...

You're being inquisitive about his random vote due to the fact that it has no flavor. That is useful? How?

Dr, you're scum. Your hop onto Net is disingenuous and your demand that he provide meta to dispute it as well. Beef, how can you suspect just me OR Net if the basis of your suspicion is that we're both scum?

If Dr is scum, why don't you vote for him?

You sure are dodgy about the simplest possible question in the game.

Why do you insist that Al make up a reason for his random vote? What is going through your head?

Knowing how players in this game would act as a vigilante, a role whose actions are immediately apparent if successful, would aid in my speculation. I was trying to narrow it down but in this complicated setup that really won't be fruitful for some time.

THERE IT IS! THE REASON YTHAN ROLEFISHED. HE ACTUALLY DID ANSWER THE QUESTION!

How is it protown to publicly narrow down the possibilities of who the vigilante(s) might be?

Also, wouldn't it have been easier to just go ahead and quote the post you knew you already made or at least restate what you had already said rather "I've already said this"?
It would seem to me like you were trying to bog down the game by being so stubborn if it weren't for the fact that you do the same thing as scum and town.

Ythan, please answer the question on everyone's lips, which is to explain why you suggested asking everyone if they liked vigging N0 in the first place. What were you trying to achieve?

I have answered this. I was speculating on my own about the nature of the setup. It was unwise for me to ask that question but it did not occur to me at the time.

What would you said if I called this backtracking?

And what makes you think that they're disingenuous?

This is a dumb question. You are either being intentionally obtuse or you are just obtuse. I don't trust your inquiry because I don't trust your inquiry. It's how it reads to me. I will not attempt to further break this down.

That's not good enough. If it's just gut, you have to say what in the post triggerred the gut. People don't get bad vibes from someone without ANY sort of provocation. You should be able to express yourself better than that.

Don't you understand why people sometimes ask you a question more than once?

I have

directly

referred back to such instances on at least one occasion. I'm not going to keep spoonfeeding you because you can't bother read through the five page thread.

No, you haven't. Sorry. You haven't once quoted yourself in one of your posts. The closest thing to this happening was when Fonz asked you about your reason for rolefishing and you backtracked.

I was uncertain, which is why I asked. I had a hunch it might not be ideal so instead of coming out and asking I did that.

This reminds me of Netlava not putting much thought into his posts.

blah blah

Semi-open setup means that I don't know what the setup is but I can figure it out, to an extent. I want to know as much as possible. I was speculating in the literal sense. In my head. There is no why. It's what I was doing.

The Fonz has a solid point there, Ythan. What were you hoping to accomplish with your question?

Nice contribution.

But you didn't speculate about how rolefishing would make the town's vigilante(s) more obvious?
And you could go ahead and answer the question by attacking Zajnet at the same time.

Al, then dr.

Could you list why?

***

Ythan seems strange but right now I have to clear out some discrepancies before voting him.

And Netlava/Beef are #2

[Prox]

Ah...I knew I should have used spoilers.

But it's more concise and directed.

[Prox]

EBWOP: And I don't do those often.

[The Fonz]

Why do you insist that Al make up a reason for his random vote? What is going through your head?

Knowing how players in this game would act as a vigilante, a role whose actions are immediately apparent if successful, would aid in my speculation. I was trying to narrow it down but in this complicated setup that really won't be fruitful for some time.

THERE IT IS! THE REASON YTHAN ROLEFISHED. HE ACTUALLY DID ANSWER THE QUESTION!

He didn't explain the purpose of his speculation, which is what I wanted to know. He said 'I would know how players act, which would help my speculation' which simply begs the question.

Also, wouldn't it have been easier to just go ahead and quote the post you knew you already made or at least restate what you had already said rather "I've already said this"?

Standing on principle, which is something I've done loads of times, like when I refuse to answer a question because I believe it is stupid, even if I know full well the questioner is going to keep pressing me and find me scummy for it.

Oh, and I really don't think he backtracked. He said 'I want to work out how people would act as vigs, this would help my setup speculation.' I then basically asked 'Why were you speculating about the setup in the first place?' and his answer was essentially 'Oh, no reason.' That's retarded, but it's not a contradiction. It basically asks us to assume that Ythan had a curiosity about the setup entirely unrelated to his win condition (he wanted to know as much about the setup just because) and either didn't care about or didn't realise the impact it would have on his win condition. I find that implausible, but I find a lot about Ythan implausible. People are strange sometimes.

[Prox]

I thought it was obvious that he wanted to narrow down who might and might not be vigilante so he could find out the VVVVV's or whatever. Or did I misinterpret?

But could you, ah, wait to respond to the parts of my post directed at specific people until they respond to them?

[The Fonz]

I thought it was obvious that he wanted to narrow down who might and might not be vigilante so he could find out the VVVVV's or whatever. Or did I misinterpret?

We know there are an even number of V's, and so we know there is a vig in the game. People giving away hints as to whether they are the vig or not does not help ascertain whether it's vv or vvvv.

But could you, ah, wait to respond to the parts of my post directed at specific people until they respond to them?

Not if I think the answer is utterly obvious to any third party paying attention.