/Invitational 11: Pick your Poison 5 (Game Over)

[Zorblag]

@Hoopla, Troll addressed that in Post 79

@mith, if the scum picked no hiders and try to fake claim one now then we almost certainly have tools to deal with that. Either a vig or a tracker be a fine way to test a hider claim. If there are no hiders then we either have one of those two or the scum gave us two weak doctors and two jailkeeprs. Troll deems that fairly unlikely for a number of reasons. Actually, Troll would be pretty pleased if scum tried to fake claim a hider Day zero all things considered. That almost certainly be a scum that would be caught before too long.

If the mafia choose to fake claim as our only claimed hider Troll be pretty confident that them will be caught at it in time.

@VasudeVa, the assassin would only be able to make one additional kill per night, not two. This has been clarified in the initial posts. Them have two shots of an extra kill.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Hoopla]

Hmmm. I suppose a massclaim would have to happen at some stage later in the game, which will tell us automatically how many scum are riding fakeclaims. I don't know how a vig or tracker would catch a hider, but I'll play along, Zorblag.

[zoraster]

I'm a little distressed at how many people are pretty much taking the easy "no thought" route to this game. It's an invitational, guys. Yes, setup talk can be a bit iffy, but presumably you picked Patrick, and that means you knew it was going to be pick your poison. Knowing this, you should have known you'd end up in a game that spent the first bit of time talking about the setup.

Given that you knew it, spend some time and really think about it rather than go "oh. well. roleblocker wouldn't be bad. let's just play." We ARE playing here, and this stage may be the most important stage of our game. So pay attention, and don't give short shrift to these discussions just because you're bored.

[zoraster]

(PS. That wasn't directed at you hoopla)

[Zorblag]

@Hoopla, a tracker would catch a fake claimed hider be showing that them no had targeted anyone when them claimed them had (or that them claimed to target someone other than the one them claimed.) A vigilante would catch a hider by killing them when them should have been hiding behind some other player.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Hoopla]

@Hoopla, a tracker would catch a fake claimed hider be showing that them no had targeted anyone when them claimed them had (or that them claimed to target someone other than the one them claimed.) A vigilante would catch a hider by killing them when them should have been hiding behind some other player.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Good point on the vig. Doesn't hiding resolve before tracking though. So presumably a tracker trying to track a Hider wouldn't get a result? Or a 'went nowhere' result?

[Zorblag]

@Hoopla, that be a question for the mod but Troll thinks that a tracker would get a result on a hider hiding. Let's see, shall we?

Mod, would a tracker track a hider hiding behind some player?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[mith]

Of course, neither of those work Night 1 if we give scum a Roleblocker. I think that's got me leaning toward Janitor/Assassin if we do a Hider-claim.

We're running out of time for this, though. Given how many players haven't been posting lately, I'm not all that confident we would get claims from everyone in time to vote on scum roles even if we agree on a Hider-claim immediately.

Mod:

Can we get some prods? DrippingGoofball hasn't posted in over a week, and there are others over the 72 hour mark.

[DrippingGoofball]

Hi guys, I'm back from VLA (yay mith missed me!!!), I have a game to mod and a few games to catch up but I should get around to it soon.

Are there cliff's notes?

[Patrick]

Votecount

Janitor (5) -- SpyreX, Kmd4390, DrippingGoofball, Ellibereth, Papa Zito
Rolecop (1) -- ooba
Roleblocker (7) -- Kmd4390, Papa Zito, ooba, SpyreX, Amished, mith, VasudeVa
Assassin (4) -- VasudeVa, Rhinox, Amished, Slicey

20 alive, 11 votes to choose.

Deadline option 2 chosen.

Mod, would a tracker track a hider hiding behind some player?

Yes.

Mod: Can we get some prods? DrippingGoofball hasn't posted in over a week, and there are others over the 72 hour mark.

I'll do a sweep now. DGB was left due to warning of vacation.

[SpyreX]

I've been prodded again and I see it is still more of the same.

I'm against a massclaim at the moment. If we're going to DO a hider claim just do it. Consensus is like pulling teeth and its dragging on.

If we were given two hiders a claim helps. 1 hider can be a wash. No hiders means this, realistically, is more of a waste but at least we know we have no hiders.

Whatever it is it needs to happen. Soon.

[mith]

If you think a Hider-claim is a wash for 1 Hider, why are you voting no?

As for the "just do it" part, I suppose if we have a Hider who wants to claim without waiting for consensus, there is nothing stopping them. I don't think a partial claim is a good idea, though, and that's what we would risk if we start claiming without consensus.

DrippingGoofball: We're still discussing whether a Hider-claim is a good idea. And we need to decide soon and do it before we run out of time.

[populartajo]

Im not surprised that unorthodox ideas as (partial) massclaims dont appeal masses very much. Its hard to implement even when the reasoning is explained carefully, as Zorblag's plan. I dont think its scummy to react that way, tbh, town tends to be more reactive than proactive and Im pretty sure the scumbags are supporting different stances as usual so I think this discussion would be useful in the long run.

That said I totally HATE what some players are doing, the "oh, lets just stop this shit and start the scumhutning plz" clique. Discussion is a very important tool in the scumhunting department even if the topic is not based on who is and who is not scum. Just based on this debate I already have some slight town reads. Since it seems a kinda popular trend, Im pretty sure there is at least one scum hiding there not giving a single opinion of his choices.

Im still a fan of hider claim for reasons previously explained. Still think that there is a way massclaim can help this in a context of very likely to fakeclaim scumbaggos. In this scenario of getting to day 1 asap, I think Im going to go with roleblocker as the weakest role and (still debating about this) the assassin. GASP.

I debated this very hard and thats why I think this part of the game is very important since besides giving some hidden information potentially important in later stages, it opened my mind to other strategies. I went to hate less the rolecop to hate him more due to the importance of power roles not only for his powers but for the fact of the claim situations that can swing games in late days. The assassin seems bad in the surface but its not that effective in a context of scum gambling the shoot and doing this in late stages when the shoot is more likely to hit. I hate less the janitor but something in his ability to mess with reads/flips and such, makes me hesitate.

I STILL WANT PEOPLE TO ANSWER MY QUESTION, SPECIALLY THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE FAILED TO CONTRIBUTE ON THE STRATEGY DEBATE. TIA.

[populartajo]

THE QUESTION IS: WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE GIVEN TO TOWN IF YOU WERE SCUM?

[Plumegranate]

PROBABLY LIKE TWO TRACKERS AND A VIG AND A JK. AS SCUM WHAT I REALLY HATE IS PEOPLE GETTING CONFIRMED TOWN/

[Zorblag]

So now we be looking at:

Hider claim?
Yes - 7 (Plumegranate, mith, Troll, Rhinox, Zoraster, ooba, populartajo)
No - 7 (ekiM, Amished, PZ, Vas, Hoopla, Spyrex, KMD4390)

mith do be somewhat right about timing; we be approaching a point where we need to be making decisions here. Hopefully at this point everyone has been giving thought to what options will potentially do. It be time for DrippingGoofball, Ellibereth, Elmo, Herodotus, My Milked Eek (has him really just posted twice?) and Slicey to get their opinions in. Troll knows that Troll no has been the most active player in the thread (Troll has been sick and busy) but Troll will still make a call for activity now.

@Papa Zito, when you do have time to get on and address what Troll has said Troll would like you to not approach it as Troll taking a position contrary to the one you have taken but rather Troll would like you to actually think about the consequences of a hider claim and make your statements based on the pros and cons of that. Troll no expects you to agree with Troll just because it be Troll (though if you no have thought about it Troll thinks that you should be somewhat inclined towards that) but rather Troll wants people to actually think through the consequences of a hider claim rather than simply rejecting them offhand.

Well, and Troll does want to know why you went for the janitor which seems out of character for you. That one Troll simply wants an answer to.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[DrippingGoofball]

I'm swamped and it's really hard for me to ponder on a week's worth of discussion, I saw that it had moved from janitor to roleblocker. Not having read the pros & cons, roleblocker is pretty un-objectionable and I have no qualms about it.

[Zorblag]

@DrippingGoofball, what would you think of a hider claim at this point? That be (Troll would argue) the main point of discussion just now. Two hiders be incredibly powerful for the town if we know we have them (though it be somewhat unlikely that we do.) A single hider no be all that powerful and be able to protect itself even if outted. If we have no hiders at all then the hider claim no outs any town power roles and prevents the scum from making hider fake claims later in the game.

Clearly there be more to the claim than that (and Troll be presenting it with Troll's preference in mind) but that be what Troll be most interested in hearing your input about right now.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Ellibereth]

/prod received

I don't care about claims and all that. Go with whatever majority is. Waiting for this to be over.

[DrippingGoofball]

Two hiders be incredibly powerful for the town if we know we have them (though it be somewhat unlikely that we do.)

The only way if have 2 hiders is if every single scumbag fails at reading comprehension. The chances of that are minuscule.

A single hider no be all that powerful and be able to protect itself even if outted.

I suppose there is no harm if there is only one hider. But there is no clear advantage, either.

If we have no hiders at all then the hider claim no outs any town power roles and prevents the scum from making hider fake claims later in the game.

That's the only advantage I see, and it's not a big one.

[Ellibereth]

V/LA next 3 days

[My Milked Eek]

No to hider claims.

[Zorblag]

@DrippingGoofball, so as far as Troll can tell from that response you don't see any way in which the hider claim could harm us but you do see a way in which it could help (a small amount.) Your tone would seem to indicate otherwise but Troll would think that would mean you should support it.

@My Milked Eek, you seem to support a mass claim but not a hider claim. What be your reasons for opposing the hider claim?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Herodotus]

I suppose I support the hider claim.

@Tajo: I'm doubtful of the benefits to the question in 238. The disadvantage I see is that scum could pick their fakeclaims more convincingly if they know what the townies expect the PR's to be.

[mith]

Right, I'm going to kick off Hider-claim. We don't have a majority, but with Ellibereth apparently abstaining (meh), along with SpyreX and DrippingGoofball's comments plus Slicey's posts before disappearing, I think we're close enough.

I am not a Hider.

I will be voting Roleblocker/Assassin if we have 0 claims, Janitor/Assassin if we have 1 claim, and probably Janitor/Assassin if we have 2 claims (though I'm considering Rolecop/Janitor instead).

Unvote: Roleblocker