Mafia 1010 - Perpetual MyLo - Game Over

[molestargazer]

...which means that it will be difficult to determine Lowell's alignment from his play alone, and thus we should look to his interactions with people. An example would be of known scum voting him early, then unvoting for no clear reason when the Lowell wagon got big. You're pretending as if Lowell having a scummy meta makes him immune from lynching.

Fair point.
The original question was "Do I find lowell scummy", to which I assumed this meant playstyle. I answered no, because it sounded like typical Lowell.

Nice mis-rep. I feel his play here, in this specific game, is scummy. Thus I am calling him scum. I don’t particularly care if his meta is scummy or not. I don’t let meta run my game.

I'll accept your decision to not include meta, but in this particular exmaple, I will. How have I made a misrep?

[Max]

I'm prodding Thief now for the final time if he requires another prod he will be replaced.

[Thief]

Not much to say, this game should be wrapped up soon:

TOWN:
Magna
DP
Rena
Exilon
Shadow

SCUM:
Lowell
Reck
Korashk

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm back. Catching uop tomorrow.

Still waiting for you catch-up post.

I'll accept your decision to not include meta, but in this particular exmaple, I will. How have I made a misrep?

Unless you can show that Lowell has a scum meta that significantly departs from his Town meta your statement that ‘this is normal Lowell’ doesn’t provide solid evidence that he can’t be scum. Relying on a perceived ‘scummy’ Town meta holds no weight if his Mafia meta isn’t demonstrably different.

It’s a mis-rep because the crux of your argument it that I was relying on meta to attack Lowell. Never the case. I was relying on his scumtastic play in this thread.

Deadline is coming up – let’s just end Lowell-scum’s misery and finish him!

[Thief]

Lowell town usually reacts... much differently to a wagon on him.

Since you've used this as a reason to attack him, could you please show us an example and say why?

By the way Thief, you still haven't answered this.

Vote: Thief

I'll respond to everything about my Lowell posts when I'm feeling less groggy, they won't be ignored.

Sitting on a nowhere wagon because I didn't answer a question is anti-town.

I'm not going to show an example, as that would narrow down who I am an alt of. If you want to vote me, you can go through Lowell's meta and point out that he acts the same as both and accuse me of making up meta.

But that's too much work for you isn't it scum?

[molestargazer]

It’s a mis-rep because the crux of your argument it that I was relying on meta to attack Lowell. Never the case. I was relying on his scumtastic play in this thread.

I was never even talking about your attack - I was stating my reasons as to why I wasn't voting for him at the time. Since that was the original question I was answering.

[molestargazer]

Sitting on a nowhere wagon because I didn't answer a question is anti-town.

I'm not going to show an example, as that would narrow down who I am an alt of. If you want to vote me, you can go through Lowell's meta and point out that he acts the same as both and accuse me of making up meta.

Oh, sorry, am I not allowed to attack someone if they don't reply? I should go for the more popular targets, right?
No.

Honestly, I don't care who you're an alt of. And you can always provide evidence from games you haven't played with him. Burden of proof is on you - if you're using this to try and lynch him, you have to provide the evidence.

But that's too much work for you isn't it scum?

I prefer it if people give reasons for calling me scum other than that I've made an attack on you.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I was never even talking about your attack - I was stating my reasons as to why I wasn't voting for him at the time. Since that was the original question I was answering.

Please demonstrate in the following quote how you are not referencing my play –

His play being generally 'scummy' (in your opinion) doesn't influence his chance of being scum in this game.

This is where the mis-rep occurs. You say his play being generally scummy IN MY OPINION doesn’t influence his chances of being scum.

1. It does influence his chances as I feel his scummy play indicate he is scum.
2. I’m not relying on meta in my attacks. Your quote infers that I am.

Burden of proof is on you - if you're using this to try and lynch him, you have to provide the evidence.

Funny you should say this. You’ve yet to provide meta evidence that proves that he plays differently as Mafia. So your suggestion that he isn’t lynch worth for his scummy play is just as invalid as Thief’s since you aren’t backing it up.

[molestargazer]

Please stop referring to me as molestar, that joke stopped being funny about a month after I made this account. *sigh*

His play being generally 'scummy' (in your opinion) doesn't influence his chance of being scum in this game.

I put the 'In your opinion' bit to infer that I didn't believe that he was scummy, since

I

was using meta in that where I've played with him before, his playstyle is similar.

Your quote infers that I am.

I didn't infer you were using meta. I stated that you thought his play was scummy, that has nothing to do with meta at all.

Unless you can show that Lowell has a scum meta that significantly departs from his Town meta your statement that ‘this is normal Lowell’ doesn’t provide solid evidence that he can’t be scum.

No, it doesn't. My point is that using meta, him playing 'scummily' does not prove him scum in this game since he always plays like that - and he always plays the same whether he's scum or town.
I'll dig into his wiki and find some meta for you shortly.

[molestargazer]

Now, for your (Magna's, at least) viewing pleasure, here's some meta on Lowell.

Let's look at some features of Lowell's play in this game.
- Making generally short posts
- Switching between periods of decent posting and lurking, quite a lot.

Let's give a few meta examples. To gather these, I simply ISOed Lowell in some games found from his Wiki page and compared the playstyles. I'll try and steer clear of the archive, since that doesn't have avatars and you can't ISO so that's a pain.
How about Open 203, where Lowell was a Vanilla Townie. Take a look at his ISO, you'll find periods of inactivity and still voting people for lurking.
Or Open 202, for that matter. Similar very short posts and lurking. He was a tracker.
Whether you'd call his play pro-town in either of those games is subjective, but they're quite similar to here - and if anything, he gives more content in this game.

Scum-Lowell? Mini 850. Looks like more lurking, but there was still a similar posting rate, with small posts.

His playstyle is very similar whether he's scum or town. Whether you agree with me or not, I don't think that his playstyle so far makes him scum.

[molestargazer]

Right, enough of this, I'm fed up now.

To summarise.

I don't think that Lowell is scum based off his playstyle and content he's posted so far. I think this because wherever I've played with him or where I've seen him play from ISOing a few games in his wiki (above), his playstyle is always the same. Ergo, he has the same odds as anyone else at being scum based off this.
Whether he is based on what Rena mentioned about voting is something I still need to look into.
However, at this moment in time, I would prefer more attention on other players. Such as thief.

Can we please move on?

[Lowell]

Here's a runthrough of D2 thusfar. The post-numbered part is optional:

257- david says it's "no surprise" [-, didn't mention this beforehand]
259- rena summons destructor's last thoughts
260- reck declares him town
262- rena votes lowell for myriad of reasons
264- david agrees, does nothing
266- thief votes lowell
271- magna suggests FOSs to stop D1-type ending [+, good idea]
274- ex 'approves' of lowell-wagon [-, trying not to draw attention but seeking popular lynch]
276- reck votes lowell
285- lowell leads w/ 3 votes
287- magna votes lowell for brian's wagon-jumping
291- lowell responds
293- magna uses votecounts to support lowell case [-, very WIFOM and easily interpretable the other way]
298- ex FOSs lowell, declares intent to vote as needed [-, looks like scum coordination]
299- david votes lowell, to 'find out' [-, ditto]
300- lowell leads w/ 5 votes
301- reck unvotes
310s- reck/mole fight
332- ex votes shadow
333- mole votes thief
347- david explains WIFOM [-, nothing to be gained here, still looks like coaching]
359- mole meta-defends lowell via repeated backhanded compliments

A couple things:

david

and

ex

are likely scum. Posts 298 and 299 read a lot like scum setting up for a lynch. After being harassed by a few players, ex declares he's "basically" on the lowell wagon, and uses his FOS to declare his willingness to vote. David immediately places the L-1 vote, with the vague exhortation "let's see if he's scum!" This

despite

his post 257 declaring the obviousness of the scum-hammer strategy (which itself would have been nice to know ahead of time). Later in 347, david tries to explain his L-1 vote, admits it's WIFOM, but still uses it to coach scum on how to play.

Ex's 332 looks bad for the same reason. Clearly he was willing to vote me, but after reck's unvote took me to L-2 again, he quickly changed strategy to move to shadow to avoid the link with david. It's possible they both think the lowell-wagon has enough momentum that they don't need to join.

magna

's 293 rubs me the wrong way as well. He uses votecounts to link brian with me. He uses it despite the obvious WIFOM problem. Scum are in many cases more likely to avoid town-wagons, particularly if they're on early and seen to be driving it. That brian voted quoi could be an indication that he felt it was "safe" in that his other teammates were protected, whereas they would not have been had the wagon on me survived. Magna bascially ignores this possibility, making me think the quoi/brian lynch was a scum plan. I think it's just as likely there were some scum

off

the quoi wagon as on it.

fos exilon, magna

[DavidParker]

david and ex are likely scum but only exi and magna get the FoS??

I'm guessing magna is your scum buddy maybe and this is your way doing some scum hunting to seem town-like.

[Max]

Korashk requested replacement. I've PMed my current no. 1 on the list and will replace ASAP.

[Rena]

Meaning that deadline is the 14th?

Lowell, I'll respond to you in a minute.

David, I don't think that I'm seeing the Lowell-Magna connection.

[Max]

Yes. It will be

[MagnaofIllusion]

No, it doesn't. My point is that using meta, him playing 'scummily' does not prove him scum in this game since he always plays like that - and he always plays the same whether he's scum or town.

This is exactly why your use of meta to absolve him is flawed. If he plays the same way regardless of alignment the solution is not to say ‘he’s not scum’. Sorry, that’s poor logic. If his ‘meta’ (which for the record once again I find as the weakest possible evidence) says he plays the same both ways you have to throw any meta reasoning out and look at him in the context of the game.

His playstyle is very similar whether he's scum or town. Whether you agree with me or not, I don't think that his playstyle so far makes him scum.

We disagree then. I think his play in this game (not his playstyle) makes him scum.

magna's 293 rubs me the wrong way as well. He uses votecounts to link brian with me. He uses it despite the obvious WIFOM problem.

Scum are in many cases more likely to avoid town-wagons, particularly if they're on early and seen to be driving it. That brian voted quoi could be an indication that he felt it was "safe" in that his other teammates were protected, whereas they would not have been had the wagon on me survived.

Magna bascially ignores this possibility, making me think the quoi/brian lynch was a scum plan. I think it's just as likely there were some scum off the quoi wagon as on it.

Bolded for emphasis. That you attack my analysis as WIFOM and use the bolded pure WIFOM as evidence is funny. The whole root of your problem with your argument is that you are approaching this game as if it was a normal Mafia game. It’s not. Scum HAVE to vote on a Town wagon to get a mislynch. Fact. So ascribing normal Mafia play Scum behaviour (3 scum in a 12 person game) to this variant game (originally 5 scum in a 12 person game) is flawed and incorrect.

You can cry WIFOM all you want and build ‘House of Cards’ style arguments all you want but I think it’s far more reasonable that brianj tried an early distancing move by voting for you and jumped when the pressure increased. If you were Town he would have had little motivation to jump off you when the pressure got high (L-2).

david and ex are likely scum but only exi and magna get the FoS??

I'm guessing magna is your scum buddy maybe and this is your way doing some scum hunting to seem town-like.

What you should be noticing is that out of the blue Lowell’s focus is on Exilon.

The player who is ‘On’ Lowell’s wagon but keeps crying ‘Don’t end the day quick’. Depsite the fact that we are within (before the replacement) 2 days of deadline.

Lowell’s sudden FOS of Exilon

SCREAMS

of late distancing given all the links I have pointed out today.

MORE LOWELL VOTES ASAP.

[xRECKONERx]

V/LA until...well, I don't know, probably like a week.

I've got packing/business to take care of at home until Thursday, then I'm moving to a new city between Thurs & Sat, then I'll be at Caffwagon with a bunch of other scummers from Saturday through Wednesday.

[Max]

Wickedestjr replaces Korashk.

Are you going to have access during the "Caffwagon"?

[Wickedestjr]

Hey guys! Reading the thread now. I'll try to get caught up in the next 2-3 days. Please don't lynch anybody before I get a chance to post.

[Wickedestjr]

Can somebody give me a summary of the game to help me while I'm reading? Thanks!

[Rena]

Lowell, your reads haven't changed at all. Except now, a wild Exilon has appeared on your suspect list. Why is this?

[Wickedestjr]

Also, I don't know how many votes Lowell has right now, but I would highly suggest not even having him at L-1. I will explain when I'm done catching up if it hasn't been already.

[Wickedestjr]

Shadow Dancer, have you ever played with Exilon before? If so, what was his allignment and how long ago?

[Lowell]

I didnt' notice the obviousness of the david and ex setup until reread is the reason.