Mini 1023 - City Watch Mafia - Game Over!

[Tasky]

I, Tasky, do solemnly swear by The Flying Spaghetti Monster to uphold the Laws and Ordinances of the city of Ankh-Morpork, serve the public trust, and defend the subjects of His Majesty King Ding Dong without fear, favour, or thought of personal safety; to pursue evil-doers and protect the innocent, laying down my life if necessary in the cause of said duty, so help me The Flying Spaghetti Monster. Gods Save the King.

[Tasky]

VOTE: jimfinn
because he didn't swear on the one and only Deity, The Flying Spaghetti Monster and because he didn't praise His Majesty King Ding Dong.
you other guys haven't turned to the wrong Masters yet, you can still be saved.

[Tasky]

vote Tasky

, for not saying the oath properly .

that's OMGUS!!! you must be scum!

[Tasky]

^ That doesn't make sense. Your not voting for me.

yeah... I just figured that out to...
don't know why but I was convinced it was jimfinn to make that post...

[Tasky]

Vote: Jimfinn

That's a weird reaction to a RVS wagon.

could you restate that "weird" reaction in your own words and explain why ["weird" = scummy?]



I understand RVS-bandwagoning, but 5 votes with 7 to lynch is definitely to much on page 3... so UNVOTE:

VOTE COUNT

jimfinn (4): Plum, Chronopie, FakeGod, VasudeVa
FakeGod (2): TheButtonmen, Thor665
Thor665 (1): KHG
Tasky (1): Budja
TheButtonmen (1): Mysterio

Not Voting (3): Narsis, jimfinn, Tasky

With 12 alive, 7 votes are needed to lynch.

[Tasky]

Obviously, the mod isn't going to reveal my power in a vote count. Have you never played a game with someone who had a double vote?

so are you really claiming double-voter or is it some sort of joke? if it's a joke, stop it. if you are seriously claiming, explain why you would claim so early, I could see no reason to do so.

[Tasky]

And.....apparently that's how our DVoter outed himself in 4 pages.

how can you be sure Mysterio has the same alignment as you?

@Tasky - you commented that the jimfinn wagon got too big too quick. Do you believe this is because of people being dumb, overeager, or having that wagon scum pushed?

I think the townies on the wagon didn't realize where it was going. since I don't know jimfinn's alignment I can't really say if the wagon was scumdriven or not.

Also, why no new vote yet?

right... we are still in RVS, aren't we?
VOTE: Chronopie for being first of the player list.

[Tasky]

Unvote; Vote: Trasky.

Serious meaning not random.

If it's not random, it means you have a reason. Since you have a reason, could you share it with us?
And my name is not difficult to write, so please write it correctly.

you fell right into my trap!

I don't understand the trap. Was it a trap to catch scum? If yes, shouldn't you be voting for him then (and telling us the reason)? If no, what was the point of the "trap"?

VOTE COUNT

jimfinn (3): Chronopie, FakeGod, VasudeVa
Tasky (2): Budja, TheButtonmen
FakeGod (1): Thor665
Thor665 (1): KHG
TheButtonmen (1): Mysterio
Chronopie (1): Tasky
Narsis (1): Plum

Not Voting (2): Narsis, jimfinn

With 12 alive, 7 votes are needed to lynch.

[Tasky]

@Mysterio - could you link me to a Day 1 Massclaim where town gained useful information?

I haven't played many games on this site. But I could link you to a Narnia game I played on another site (you would have to register) where mass RC's helped win the game due to a large number of main characters being used. The fake claims were eventually pigeonholed and allowed town to win fairly easily. Obviously, I can't say for sure if the same will happen here, but it seems to me RCing has very few downsides for town, but very many downsides for scum.

I am fairly new to this site, but from what I got by looking trough old games, the vast majority of them is totally massclaim-proof... you are trying to outsmart the mod, that won't work... so, let's look at pros and cons of mass-claim:

pros:
basically nothing, since scum will have a way to protect themselves from being exposed (fake claim or something like that)
I doubt looking for main/secondary characters will help at all
the only pro I can think of is that it's more difficult for scum to come up with a good claim later in the game. But I think that's a risk we can take as such claims are usually easy to expose (and if they deviate from their fakeclaim they are likely going to be counteclaimed). And even if we massclaim, that would still be possible, since they could still invent abilities which are consistent with the role-name.

cons:
1. powerful town roles might get exposed. Assume e.g. someone claims Vetinari or Vimes, Scum would have a perfect NK-target and probably hit a town-PR.
2. I assume that every day someone gets an ability, if we claim roles, scum would always know who has which abilities, that would definitely hurt town.

well, I think it's kinda obvious we should NOT massclaim...

[Tasky]

I can't believe we have to argue about this...

Pros:
All fake claims can be analyzed for their veracity when compared to other role claims. You could have a fake claim that was not too obscure and uncounterclaimed, but you can still pick out things that don't fit if indeed all town roles have some attribute in common. I agree that outguessing the mod is stupid, but my point is it doesn't matter what the mod has done. Mass RCing can give us clues as to which characters are most likely town, and make it much harder for scum to hid behind the unknown of not knowing what characters are in use. Especially in theme games where there are "main characters" and every other character, that is the easiest way of picking out anomalies.

Cons:
There is certainly the issue of inadvertantly outing a power role if someone was assigned a huUNVOTE: ge character like Vimes or Vetinari, and that's one of the downsides for town I mentioned. But we still don't know the mechanics of the power roles, such as the existence of protective roles or self-saves. And neither will scum, so even if someone is pressured into revealing their role as Vimes for example, there's no guarantee at all that he will be night killed. And we still get the benefit of knowing that huge characters are in play, which makes it even harder for scum to hide.

I really can't believe you believe what you are saying... translation:
"well, who cares if we out a huge power role, since there might be a doctor to protect it. And even the PR dies, well, at least we know it was there."
this is total nonsense...
just because something is

possible

(the PR not being NK'ed), it doesn't mean it is

probable

. In fact, I think the probability that an outed PR won't live long is really high and is definitely not worth the minimal benefit you

maybe

get out of the mass-claim.

you either are incredibly stupid or you are scum (or both).
in both cases I don't want you in the endgame...
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mysterio

[Tasky]

EBWOP: damn... that "UNVOTE: " shouldn't be inside the quote...

[Tasky]

Your overreaction is quite telling

. If indeed a PR is lost (this assumes a bunch of things that would not be revealed by RCing), but we gain information on scum that narrows the field down, then what have we really lost? Your reaction seems like an obvious attempt to sound pro-town, while at the same time avoiding a tactic that could make it harder for scum to blend in. PR's are not to be protected at all costs, which your overreaction seems to suggest.

bold is mine.
what exactly is my "overreaction" telling?
yes... I am upset, since you continue to insist on something so obviously wrong... you would gain so little information of it, it would never be worth losing a PR for it...
problem with it? do you think it is scummy? well, say it outright then, and get the courage to vote... but you know you are wrong and your attack is total nonsense, so you keep it on vague terms because you know you would be totally shot down.

We never really got a chance to get some reactions to my claim, but that's essentially what I was going for. It also occurred to me that RCing could be a really good way of boxing in scum and forcing them to have to fake claim, and just by doing that we would be limiting their ability to blend in. But no one agreed with that. However, all is not lost. As I said, there were a couple people who were insistent on lynching me, as well as Narsis who very obviously just jumped on the bandwagon. So, even if I do get lynched, that's some valuable information right there.

so you are still insisting what you were doing was the right thing to do?

Reactions to claims can be invaluable, since scum usually react in two extreme ways:

1. They either completely believe the claim and never bother to be at all suspicious about it (when they arguably shouldn't know what my alignment is).

2. They overreact and flip out, trying too hard to sound pro-town.

where did you get this from? scum can just fake to know nothing perfectly... there are other ways of getting reactions, and they have two big advantages:
1. they are usually more effective, e.g., take a direct attack on a player... it's much more likely to get a telling reaction by that than it is by a claim where nobody is directly addressed and can therefore just pretend to know nothing.
2. they don't have the enormous drawback of outing your role... even if you are a VT, outing is bad... remember, a VT's job is to get NK'ed and as Chronopie said after you are outed, the probability for that decreases exponentially.
this also responds plum's post:

Was it really hurtful to the Town? Well, throwing in the VT bit was a little, but we can deal and it doesn't seem to be anything but a nulltell that he did it. The talking about NKing bit comes naturally in explaining why outing himself doesn't hurt the Town, as it won't lose the Town a powerrole by NK tonight.

I'm quite comfortable with my vote on you right now.

_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_

Preview Ninja'ed by Plum, more to come after I read her post.

I still want to hear that post you promised...
is this all you can come up with?

_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_

Vote: Narsis

would you mind posting a reason for your vote?
all you did the whole game was jumping on other people's attacks/bandwagons without any comments at all...
I think you deserve a

FoS: VasudeVa

[Tasky]

Narsis is obviously jumping on the bandwagon. Even after being pressed, he has failed to give any reasoning for his vote on me. In post #197, he simply repeats yet again that he found me to be more scummy than anyone else. He's clearly appealing to the consensus that built up against me without bothering to actually explain his vote at all. There is also VasudeVa who is also bandwagoning. He jumped on the bandwagon against me, but then switched his vote to Narsis without explaining it at all. He then admits to wanting a bandwagon to form against Narsis in post #186. Not sure how much more transparent that vote could possibly be. You also have to wonder why he decided to vote for me, if he was simply going to change his vote to someone else when I was at L-1.

Mysterio, please take a stance! do you think bandwagoning is scummy or not?

first you say Narsis jumping on your wagon is scummy.
then you say VasudeVa is scummy for jumping on your wagon.
then you say VasudeVa is scummy for jumping on Narsis' wagon.
And then YOU jump on Narsis' wagon (even if you didn't vote, I still consider your attack a bandwagonjump).

this looks to me like accusing other players for doing something and then proceed to do THE SAME THING shortly after...

_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_

I really don't like the Narsis-wagon that is being formed...
looking over the attacks on him

let's take a quick look at the cases against him:

Thor665

this are Thor's post on Narsis

@Narsis - would love to see a bit of commentary from you about your current top suspect.

@Narsis - Was it post 138 or post 142 that made you vote for him?

Or vote FakeGod or Narsis - I see win in those wagons and support their lynch.

You don't see the blatant scum energy flinging from your pores? It got on my face and I wiped it off and saw my napkin was covered in win...*liquid* win. (that and your entrance self vote, you claimed "trap" that revealed a null tell (whoopee) and then you call everyone null as far as reads go and sort of gently drift onto the big wagon of the moment...well, all of that and the napkin - the case is mostly about the napkin)

Who should I be suspecting if not you?

Also, when I wrote out the case on Narsis early I realized how amazingly great it was.

Unvote: FakeGod
Vote: Narsis

I really don't see much of a case here... self-vote is more often than not a town-read, at worst it's a null-tell... in the few games I've played, I remember only town-aligned self-votes
that "trap"... well, I did something similar too in one game (can't link, since it's ongoing)... so it's really nothing...
having null-tells all around on the first few pages isn't uncommon...
I think he provided a decent reasoning for voting Mysterio...
the rest is nothing...

Budja:

unvote, vote Narsis

, commented early, voted later.

this is the point where he votes for Narsis saying he already commented on him... looking through his ISO I didn't find any mention of Narsis...

Glad the Narsis wagon is building steam. Thor's posting is good posting.

the only explanation (which comes

after

saying "commented early, voted later") for the vote is this post... and I don't see any contribution at all.
what exactly about Thor is "good posting"? the napkin thing?

Plum:

UNVOTE: jimfinn

VOTE: Narsis

Attempts to be casual, jokey; ignores everything that's gone on, even the chance to acknowledge that stuff has happened for a complete nothing. He doesn't even end up with a vote on anyone.

what's the difference between attempting to be casual, jokey and actually being it? if you are referring to the self-vote, as I already said... it's an absolute null-tell
is it scummy not to vote in the beginning of the game?
this is your whole case on him...

VasudeVa:

Vote: Narsis

well, that isn't much of a reasoning, is it?

I was voting for you, and now Narsis, in order to gather information about your alignment. Some pressure is needed to properly squeeze out a player's alignment, and I've been abusing my vote for that purpose. Bandwagoning is a legitimate strategy D1 as it is a good way to gather information. There is a way to differentiate scum-bandwagoning from Town-wagoning but that's a story for another day~

I think this reasoning is ok for voting... but it still isn't a case...
and as jimfinn already stated, how do you differentiate scum-bandwagoning from Town-wagoning...
SIDENOTE: for now you go back on my "about-null-tell-pile" for now, but I still expect a good answer to that question

Conclusion:

the Narsis wagon is a bad wagon... Mysterio's is much better

[Tasky]

Dislike Tasky's attempted defense of Narsis against Thor. Self-voting may be null, but joking around and having only null reads at that point in the game, when some serious material was under discussion, is generally likely to be a scummy action. Thor's case focused on Narsis' lack of commentary on his top suspects and in general the fact that he's contributed nothing to this game while latching onto the largest wagon . . . you attempt to excuse him for the 'trap' clumsily as well. Oh, and your attack on my case on Narsis:

As I already explained, he had given a decent explanation for his jump on the wagon, and not having top suspects is not necessarily a scumtell...
for the "trap-thing"... it's just that I found myself in a very similar as Narsis (maybe bad play) and therefore I understand him... so I wanted to point out that that isn't a scum-tell.

The difference is that scum may feign lightheartedness and lack of concern early in the game to avoid actually participating. Narsis was in a position where contribution was basically demanded, but instead attempted to fool around. Again, self-voting is not a nulltell if in context it is aiding and abetting scum behavior, like avoiding scumhunting. I'd be on Narsis' case just as much had he voted then quickly unvoted anyone in the game that way; the one he happened to do that to was himself. My case on him further includes his commplete lack of reads. He's simply not scumhunting and not trying to scumhunt. Townies have direct motivation to scumhunt. Scum don't have

direct

motivation to scumhunt, so generally speaking avoiding scumhunting is a MAJOR SCUMTELL.

I'd really like to see some statistics on self-votes, since I think they definitely aren't done by scum more than by town.
You are right on Narsis' lazyness, but being lazy is not a scumtell...
For the being jokey thing, it isn't enough to say why scum does it, you have to say why scum does it more than town... in the few games I've played, jokey players have often enough been town (actually more often than they were scum).

Mysterio, please take a stance! do you think bandwagoning is scummy or not?

first you say Narsis jumping on your wagon is scummy.
then you say VasudeVa is scummy for jumping on your wagon.
then you say VasudeVa is scummy for jumping on Narsis' wagon.
And then YOU jump on Narsis' wagon

(even if you didn't vote, I still consider your attack a bandwagonjump).

This is weak. Suspecting someone is NOT the same as bandwagoning.

it's

almost

the same in this phase of the game:
since people aren't going to get lynched atm there is almost no difference between voting for someone and putting a FoS on them... the point still is that you attacked Narsis after a lot of people did, and that's called wagoning.

The whole "defend Narsis" post by Tasky was odd but on the whole I don't think it was scummy, just weak.

The arguments were weak, yes. But an entire post devoted to knocking down every single person's reasons for voting Narsis? I just don't see why, from a normal Town perspective, even one with strong Town read, for whatever reason (heaven help me if I know how someone could get a better than neutral read on Narsis at this point) an entire post would be a sort of lowgrade attack on everyone who voted Narsis/their votes on Narsis.

the attack was weak... to show that I had to take all the posts containing some content and prove them to be basically nothing.
I just think the Narsis wagon is bad... it could be caused by scum or simply by bad play...

A few other Tasky things have been slightly on the odd side (like unvoting from a 5-player wagon on page 3 which he later stated was probably mainly Town-driven . . . again, worry about a quickhammer then? And if so, unvote a wagon which didn't seem shady/scum-driven?).

here comes the nonsense again... just because a wagon isn't scum-driven, it doesn't mean it's a good wagon. And an RVS wagon going to L-2 in the first few pages just doesn't seem right to me. So you think it's scummy to unvote a random vote on a random wagon if that wagon isn't clearly scum-driven... your standards are certainly different from mine.

@Tasky - I grok that you think the cases on Narsis are weak, but this is Day 1 and cases tend to be a little fluffier at this point. Why do you think Narsis is so likely to be town?

I don't know whether Narsis is town... but if he is scum then he isn't for the arguments brought up against him up to this point...
I really don't like the wagon that's building up against him based on this fluffy cases.

PS: what does "grok" mean?

[Tasky]

@Tasky - if you're uncertain about Narsis' role why go through that much effort to defend him? I was pretty 'meh' on the logic of the Mysterio case - but by letting it go I get to see how people respond to it and try to sell it. By you coming out so intensely at the Narsis cases you are tying yourself strongly to a player you have just admitted you have a neutral read on. Why would you do this? The only reason (if you're town) should be that you have a scum read on one of the attackers or a town read on Narsis. Also - happy day of womb escapage.

the wagon against him was building a lot of momentum and it looked to me like it was going straight to a lynch... since for me the arguments supporting the wagon were bad, the probability that Narsis is scum is as much as anyone's imo... and that's not a good probability (4/12 at best).

Tasky, do you now believe Mysterio to be more likely to be scummy, or more likely stupid, and why?

definitely scummy. the main reasons I already told are:
1. he continued to push for the massclaim thing, even after being proven wrong.
2. after he tossed his idea of massclaiming (cause the pressure was just to great), he still pretended to be right about it and wanted to make us think he was doing the right thing all the time (including his own claim, which obviously was wrong)
3. he started to attack Narsis only after the attack was going on big times
4. Mysterio thinks Narsis was scum but he didn't want to put him at L-1 (still assuming his doublevoter claim is true) and instead FoS'd. the problem with that is that he had absolutely no problems with putting jimfinn at L-2 from whom he hadn't any scumread, but just wanted to create pressure for a claim. I think L-2 for a player don't even find scummy just because "he has the most votes on him" (quoted from here) is at least as aggressive as L-1 for a player you find scummy.

_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_

I think the case on KHG is a viable case.

in his ISO 7-9 he repeats that Mysterio is claiming for no reason and that it was unnecessary. I totally agree with it, but...

I'm Sergeant Detritus and I'm a townie.

Plum made a big deal earlier about the distinction between a townie and a vanilla townie (which I don't understand), but my role PM simply said townie so I'll leave it at that.

then he claims at L-4 (3 votes)... talking of unnecessary claim...
at this point the only conclusion I can draw is that you are scum, who has a fakeclaim you believe to be good and at the first opportunity want to get that fakeclaim out in order to be cleared for the rest of the day (or maybe game).

and then this:

I'd assume the people voting for me simply don't believe my claim? Is that assumed? Buttonmen and Budja haven't given explanations.

I think this post shows how important that claim is for you. You are trying really hard to make people think you are town. And that is scummy. I don't think no real townie would try to "hammer the point home that he his a townie when no one was asking for a roleclaim".

you get added to my scum-list together with Mysterio...
and you get a vote for it:
UNVOTE: VOTE: KHG

obviously Mysterio gets a

big FoS: Mysterio

...

[Tasky]

Tasky's posts make little sense to me. He just got finished laying out why I was scummy, but then switches his vote to KHG...why? Because the bandwagon on me died out? Now I'm only suspicious and not scummy? Either you're backtracking and don't think your reasons against me are that strong (but still want to quietly keep me under suspicion), or you're simply opportunistically jumping on the KHG wagon.

you are scum, KHG is scum... simple as that.
I actually don't really care whether you or KHG get lynched first.

I said I was unsure when I would be able to post again. As it turns out, I got a chance to.

bullshit-meter just went off... you really think we would quicklynch this early? and you were at L-4 dammit... I mean, not even half of the required majority was achieved.

I think this post shows how important that claim is for you. You are trying really hard to make people think you are town. And that is scummy.

I don't know how hard I'm trying, but it's in my best interest to make people think I'm town because I am town and it's easier to accomplish my win condition. I don't see how that's scummy.

well, you seemed to be of a different opinion earlier:

I think it's pro-scum; why would Mysterio hammer the point home that he his a townie when no one was asking for a roleclaim?

I can't think of a single reason.

you are doing exactly the same thing you earlier attacked as scummy...

I think it's usual scum-tactic to attack your buddy early (in fact you were the first to attack Mysterio), when it's very unlikely that a lynch happens and then jump back off him at the first opportunity... I think the fact that you were the first to vote him and then unvoted without posting a single reason for it.
this was your last post against Mysterio:

Emphasis is mine. Because scum would be stupid enough to lynch someone like that, without any prerogative evidence? You've been pressuring jimfinn pretty much singlehandedly. My vote will stay on you.

what happened there between that and your ISO 15? I don't see anything at all...
therefore I really think a Mysterio-KHG partnership is to be expected.

[Tasky]

back from V/LA... I'll do a reread as soon as possible...

[Tasky]

my top suspects are FakeGod and Chronopie... this is why:

FakeGod:

ISO 41:

Vote: FakeGod

I am dissappoint that no one is listening to me on ButtonMen. I also like the fact that he has been posting elsewhere whilst ignoring my attack on him. Yum yum Scum. Still, FG is scum with him so w/e.

VV ignores mod's request to unvote before voting another player to avoid confusion (see rule 5 and 5-1), vote FG as soon as he posts that he will be V/LA for the day, for no reason other than because FG followed Button's vote and voted VV, and the fact that Button has no vote and will be hard to get other people to lynch him.

this is one of the main points: It's clearly obvious that the unvoting thing is a nulltell. And still FakeGod wants to put it on his lists. Why? the only reason I can come up with is that you really want to pile as much dirt as possible on VV. It's clear in this part of the attack, that you don't want to find out the truth about VV, but just want to discredit him.

then comes the whole thing with the anti-town vs. scum argument. I think that was discussed enough, I think it's clear that a townie wouldn't lynch someone if they think he is is town.

both things together are scumtells enough to warrant a

FoS: FakeGod

Chronopie

chronopie's early play didn't strike me as especially scummy but the last posts were just a "I am scum"-scream:

Well that doesn't help

So I'll just have to contrast it one of your town games...

From Go Play in Traffic (complete)

You find it weird that Fate changed his post style, but he seems more logical, so you are hesitant to follow him? Then you blatantly join the wagon just because Fate said so? Do you understand the reasoning behind the wagon?

Well, logic doesn't mean I should follow him. I play by inconsistency-tell, so when someone suddenly changes stance I get suspicious.

When I said logical, I didn't mean he was more convincing, but rather in a different style. It was a miscommunication. Don't worry about it.

This Quote just sticks out at me, because FG claims (as part of his town meta) to play by inconsistency-tell, yet commits inconstancies here.

VOTE: Fakegod

this post looks totally forced... who exactly do you want to compare the playstyle of a player using one post of another game? this is total bullshit. I think you wanted to find something, that you could attack FG with, just so that you get a good reason to jump on his wagon and bus your partner. You didn't want to get caught with your vote off the scum-wagon, didn't you? but on the other side you didn't want to look like you were just copying the other cases. => SCUM!

The excessively strong push on VV is at odds with the rest of your playstyle. Thus inconsistent.

-P.Edit: ya know, reasons help-

well... you continue with your "inconsistency"-nonsense... this argument is total crap: play style isn't something which is set in stone for ever and ever, it changes with the flow of the game.

I'm not a big fan of Meta myself, but We don't have any NA interactions / scum flips to draw info from.

there was so much going on here... there are so much viable cases just waiting to be picked up, you really don't need to meta if you dislike it. especially the kind of meta you did, quoting an isolated post about "contradictions", is totally worthless.

it's clear that you are grasping at straws here. feeling the string around your neck already?

this is enough for a lynch imo... UNVOTE: VOTE: Chronopie

[Tasky]

BAH!
looks like that was the hammer...
good luck town

[Tasky]

good game.
town played well after all.
yeah, I guess it was balanced after all and we just failed to play this right.
Once again it's confirmed that I'm just not capable of playing scum. lol

mole, your modding was good. I liked the vote-count-edit-into-first-post thing too even if I was skeptical at first.
overall a very enjoyable game.


see ya all again soon.

[Tasky]

PS: this game has motivated me to read Discworld novels. Today they arrived and I am going to start reading soon.

[Tasky]

here's the Mafia quicktopic link