Mini 1005: Mafiaphobes! (Game over)

[Oso]

So, at this moment we have 3 dead townies.

quadz08, Tazaro - Vanilla.

KageLord-Cop

Alive we have

vezo-Watcher
diddin-JailKeeper/Neighbor

Me(Oso)-Unknown/Neighbor (with some ambiguity on alignment depending on how you read one of KG's posts)
Poirot-Unknown/Neighbor

xvart, Sotty7, Aranneas, SSBF and q21 -Unknown.

Night 1: No night kill
Vezo watches me, catches KG performing a night action. KG being confirmed as a Cop, we can assume he was invetigating (obvious I know, being thorough).
diddin jails Sotty7.

Night 2:KG night killed.
Diddin jails me(Oso).
Vezo watches Piorot and catches KG and another player performing a night action on Poirot.

So we have another non-claimed player that is capable of performing a night action.

This is a catch-up to confirm I have haven't missed anything important and to make sure we are all on the same page. Can anyone see where I have left something out?

[diddin]

I am almost certain there is not another power role in this game. I for one am in favor of vezo outing his other visit.

[q21]

I read through the beginning of the game, looking at the Tasky wagon as a starting point because we now know he's town. I think there's scum on there. At its climax that wagon looked like this:

Tasky - Vazo, Oso, diddin, SSBF

Vezo - Claimed and proven watcher. Not necessarily proven town, but I'm leaning strongly that way based on the claim.
Oso - Was on the wagon for valid reasons and got off for valid reasons. I see nothing amiss with his participation on this wagon. Add that to the fact that I think his play as been townie overall and I'm not interested in pursuing his lynch.
diddin - Jailkeeper claim. It could be scum RB, but I'm not feeling that. I'm against lynching the claimed JK today. (interestingly enough, my stances on Oso and diddin mean that from a game setup standpoint I don't mind a Humble lynch. Will have to reread him to see if I'm also fine with it from a play standpoint.)
SSBF - Only one left, so off to look at his play

ISO: 4 Performs a major contradiction. At the top of the paragraph, he said it was just for him to get a sort of a personality profile. In his response to jayfl383, he said that not answering the questions were scummy. See #43 for more information about the contradiction.

It was not a major contradiction. It wasn't even an obvious contradiction. It was nowhere near as clear cut as you make it out to be here. Oso wrote more than one post trying to explain how this contradiction worked. SSBF is inflating the point.

ITT defending people is a scumtell

I'm not saying Tasky is or isn't scum, which Jay doesn't seem to get. I'm saying he was NOT rolefishing with his RQs. Nothing more, nothing less.

Defending people is a scum tell, period. Defending a person establish a connection between you and that person you're defending. If the person you're defending flips scum, this can help people catch you if you're scum. If you're town, it's going to make you look bad. And it does not matter how you defended Tasky, it is still a scum tell.

The now infamous point about defending people being a scumtell. It's worth nothing that something he seems to consider such a blatant, clear cut scumtell didn't make it into his answer to Tasky's questions about how he'd go about finding scum. He then goes on to defend this erroneous position almost rabidly. An example being:

Smash, Chainsaw Defenses aren't a scumtell unless the person someone is defending indireectly is confirmed scum. So attacking people for chainsaws D1 is just lol.

So are you saying we should ignore chainsaw defenses on other people if we don't know the people's alignments? I'd rather let people know about them now so people will more likely be able to pick up on them if Player A attacked Player C while defending Player B and Player B flips scum then ignore it until Player B flips scum.

Cop with a town result on someone.

Unless it's in a Newbie Game or in an Open game that doesn't have Serial Killer/Mafa Godfather/any role that turn up innocent although they are not town-aligned, you cannot fully trust your town investigation. Even in a game without anti-town roles that turn up innocent on investigations, there can be different variations of Cops. You could be insane, which means that you actually got an Innocent on a scum. There is no guarateen that your Innocent investigation is true in most circumstances.

Masons.

You cannot rule out the possibility of Masons being part of a scum factions as well. Maybe unlikely, but it can happen. Scum Masons can lie about there alignments as well.

That would just be boring.

And that's worse then intentionally self-voting during the scum hunting stage because?

Refutes all the examples I gave him, despite those examples being perfectly relevant.

Quadz08: Reading Quadz08 in ISO, #258 feels like AtE. He admitting to having a problem with his play style instead of actually making a decent response to Poirot's case to him with Poirot made in #252. I also find it odd that despite him attacking vezokpiraka, that he's currently going after me. He showed us more evidence that vezokpiraka was scum then I was, yet has a vote one me.

I also wasn't a fan of his defense of diddin as it made him look hypocritical when calling me out for "defending is a scum tell."

. The case against Quadz08 is decent as well. Willing to lynch him if vezokpiraka doesn't ge through ToDay.

The bolded makes no sense. quadz calls you out for your claim that defending people is a scumtell and quadz defends someone. There is no hypocrisy there, there is the complete opposite, consistency. If he'd been the one to say "defending is a scumtell" and then defended someone, that would be hypocrisy. SSBF is trying to look like he's adding something to the quadz case that was going on, labelling something hypocrisy because it hypocrisy is a scummy buzzword - not because that's what actually happened.

@xvart: Going deeper into "what if quadz08 flips town scenario":

1. What would that say about me and diddin, since we're considered by you quadz08's scum partners?
2. Who would be your third lynch candidate?
3. Would you analyze the bandwagon that you've created for scums?

I do not see a townie raising these questions before a quadz town flip. Especially not a town who has (however superficially) claimed some suspicion of quadz himself. I find it much more likely that you knew what his flip would be because you're scum and you know who's town.

Vote SSBF

Scummiest person still breathing.

[q21]

I don't understand Oso's contradiction. I don't want to defend Tasky here because I think he's pretty scummy anyways, but I still don't get it.

UNVOTE: SSBF
VOTE: Diddin

Jumping all over that came off as quite opportunistic.

Doesn't want to defend Tasky. Okay. Right. Lets look at some of his following posts.

Guys, take a look at Tasky's join date, posting style, etc. Now tell me, do you really think he's good enough to subtly rolefish like that as scum? Cause I really don't.

@KageLord: how would scum find out a cop/doc through Tasky's questions?

Defending Tasky.

SSBF: Tell me what the case on Tasky is, in your own words.

Defending Tasky.

SSBF. Think about it, now. I'm not defending Tasky on anything else except the rolefishing accusations, because I do NOT think Taskyscum is capable of thinking "hm I'll try and out some PRs with these RQs" in a million years. .

Defending Tasky.

Says he doesn't want to defend Tasky and then... defends Tasky. Its like he doesn't actually want to call Tasky town because that might serve to decrease his targets for a potential mislynch, but he knows he can look involved if he weighs in on the Tasky situation. What he ends up doing is getting caught between the two.

...


Oh, Good Lord! I'd forgotten how much Humble writes. I'm not going to half read him and a whole read would take more time than I have right now. That will have to wait until a later time. From memory his plays has been fairly town - but maybe he's just using lots of words to obfuscate his scumminess. Jury is still out on him for me.

[Humble Poirot]

Damn, I get in for a quick update and find this...

I am almost certain there is not another power role in this game. I for one am in favor of vezo outing his other visit.

FoS Diddin.

I'm starting to think xvart was rigth all along.

I'm not dead. But you're saying scum visited me last night. I'm thinking you're scum RB and want to find yet another town PR.

I'll read q21's post and give a better idea of my thoughts later.

@Vezok: do NOT claim your information

.

[Oso]

I've had about enough of this.

@Everyone.

Just when it is going to be appropriate for

CLAIMED TOWN PRs TO START GIVING THE REST OF TOWN THEIR INFORMATION?

Seriously, do we wait until they show up in the dead list and then have to infer from what they said before they died as to what they might have found? Like in the case of KageLord?

To point out, town is not doing well so far this game. All we've managed to do is lynch a weak townie and a VI.

@vezo. If you, as is

YOU

, not anyone else, think town can be helped along by your info then give it. Fuck what scum will do with it, give the town an opportunity to use what you know against scum.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

1) Are you trying to line up lynches?

No I am not. Not sure why this is lining up lynches.

2) I put focus on Tazaro so now fake arguments are not that? Aran's post is still there for you to watch it. I knew this would happen sooner or later, people would try to forget that there was no case against me and try to only remember the attack, not the content (Aran himself said he had dropped it).

I put a lot of focus on Tazaro so that makes me scummy? So that makes Aran townier and he was really scumhunting? unless I flip town and he's a lyncher?

1. Putting a lot of focus on a person does not mean a person is tunneling. Tunneling is where you put almost all of your effort toward one person being lynched. Since Aranneas was focusing on other people, I highly doubt that he's a lyncher regardless of your flip.

2. Saying you're scummy for the same thing that I consider genuine scumhunting on Aranneas's part would make absolutely no sense as I believe you deserve a similar amount of credit for your well-developed attack on Tazaro. When judging a person's attack on a person, I look at the quality of the attack, I'm not going to be bias on the matter.

3. You flipping town does not mean that Aranneas is a lyncher. Like I said, he put a lot of focus on Tazaro. If you were to flip town, while it does open up the slim possibility that he's a lyncher (I do mean slim), I still wouldn't be pushing for his lynch because his play has been generally pro-town

Also, did you even wonder about the 6 people who DID vote Tazaro? Waggon analysis this time is not important?

First question, yes I did. Second question, I will get on it tonight. If not, definently tomorrow. But most likely tonight.

---

It was not a major contradiction. It wasn't even an obvious contradiction. It was nowhere near as clear cut as you make it out to be here. Oso wrote more than one post trying to explain how this contradiction worked. SSBF is inflating the point.

I'm not asking you anythink about this game... this is just so I can get a sort of personality profile... people tend to play differently when playing roles they like than if they play roles they don't like...
just because one says he likes to play cops, that doesn't influence whether he is cop or not...

1. not answering questions is denying information... and thats scummy

Compare the two quotes. I can easily see the contradiction without having to really look hard at it. The fact that the contradiction manage to get Oso to switch his vote over to Tasky makes it relatively major and a few others caught on it, making it previous obvious that Tasky performed a contradiction. And you claim it isn't inflating.

It's worth nothing that something he seems to consider such a blatant, clear cut scumtell didn't make it into his answer to Tasky's questions about how he'd go about finding scum.

It is not necessary to put in every single scum tell you look for in an answer to Tasky's question on how to find scums. Plus you find new ways to find scums in games as you progress in your Mafia game.

---

- Regarding your argument in where I defend my position on that infamous issue, if I have an oppertunity to defense myself from the accustations made against it, I will eventually get to it. Did you seriously expect me to back down from my stance then?

---

The bolded makes no sense. quadz calls you out for your claim that defending people is a scumtell and quadz defends someone. There is no hypocrisy there, there is the complete opposite, consistency. If he'd been the one to say "defending is a scumtell" and then defended someone, that would be hypocrisy.

SSBF is trying to look like he's adding something to the quadz case that was going on, labelling something hypocrisy because it hypocrisy is a scummy buzzword - not because that's what actually happened.

Bolded: Are you ignoring the part where I called him out for using AtE and not doing a very good job with his case on me? So you're saying that I added nothing to quadz08's caes then?

I do not see a townie raising these questions before a quadz town flip. Especially not a town who has (however superficially) claimed some suspicion of quadz himself. I find it much more likely that you knew what his flip would be because you're scum and you know who's town.

The reason why I asked xvart those questions is because he was hellbent on quadz08 being scum, declaring quadz08 "certainly scum". There is always at least a chance that a person is scum, so a player cannot be 100% guarateen to be scum before a flip.

I also noticed that all your evidence is from Day 1/very early Day 2. Given that I'm your top suspect, I was kind of hoping that you would provide more recent examples of why I am scummy. Your case on me is dated.

---

Just when it is going to be appropriate for CLAIMED TOWN PRs TO START GIVING THE REST OF TOWN THEIR INFORMATION?

As soon as they are able to provide it. There are not reasons for Town PRs to hide information away from the town, it's a horrible thing to do and town needs as much information as possible and we need information to lynch scums.

[Humble Poirot]

@Oso:

The point is to know what people think and who they suspect and why before they start just excusing themselves with claims for a suspicion. At least, make Aran say who he suspects and why.

What I'm thinking is that I very much doubt scum targetted me with a no killing action. Therefore, whoever acted on me is probably town and I'm afraid it might be a beneficial role. That, plus myread of diddin's attitude makes me consider the fact that he is a scum RB. Suffice to say, I need to re-read some things to refresh memory and look at the whole game, not a couple of posts.

I'm not saying he doesn't need to claim (I know what happened to kage) but he definetly doesn't need to claim right now.

Also, you said before that there couldn't be that much PRs... And now there's 1 more, apparently.

--------------------------------------

@q21

Says he doesn't want to defend Tasky and then... defends Tasky. Its like he doesn't actually want to call Tasky town because that might serve to decrease his targets for a potential mislynch, but he knows he can look involved if he weighs in on the Tasky situation. What he ends up doing is getting caught between the two.

Dude... Do you even remember why you guys were going after Tasky? You were going at him because Tasky had asked some questions and that was supposed to be a mild attempt to end the rvs (which according to vezok, meant scum).

What you're doing is terrible. You're dismissing the whole context of situations and going for the A did B -> that must be a scumtell.

Oh, Good Lord! I'd forgotten how much Humble writes. I'm not going to half read him and a whole read would take more time than I have right now. That will have to wait until a later time. From memory his plays has been fairly town - but maybe he's just using lots of words to obfuscate his scumminess. Jury is still out on him for me.

I try to be as clear as possible. If you want to ask me anything about the game and want me to be brief just say so. Anyway, Humble may be smart scum... I seem to remember that... If you feel I'm deliberately obfuscating my posts somehow please point to me where and why.

@q21

: Yesterday you voted diddin for the L-1 and asked for a claim. Next you voted Tazaro and left. Why is diddin town JK and not anything else?

read through the beginning of the game, looking at the Tasky wagon as a starting point because we now know he's town. I think there's scum on there

Another non-statement. Scum, is likely to be in the waggon. Also, you were on the waggon too. What about it?

You dismiss players just because they claimed something? Their motives do not matter?

diddin - Jailkeeper claim. It could be scum RB, but I'm not feeling that. I'm against lynching the claimed JK today. (interestingly enough, my stances on Oso and diddin mean that from a game setup standpoint I don't mind a Humble lynch. Will have to reread him to see if I'm also fine with it from a play standpoint.)

Of course you don't. Based on what arguments would you lynch me?

SSBF - Only one left, so off to look at his play

Oh my... Do I sense you're pulling "Thea Aran stunt" against SSBF? Look at everything he posted and try to find something scummy about it in retrospect?

The worst thing is that many of the things you say now, you had the opportunity to say in the past and didn't.

You're right about the bolded part of hypocrisy-calling out-quadz.

Why didn't you call him on it earlier regarding the questions against xvart?

You're officially stretching this.

--------------------------------------

@SSBF: When you talk about someone flipping (when there's not even a decent waggon) and that being a consequence for someone else it makes it sound like you're A)proposing an lynch without actually voting b)proposing another lynch based on the information when the first one does flip.

Since Aranneas was focusing on other people, I highly doubt that he's a lyncher regardless of your flip.

Has he now? When? I haven't seen that. He talked in his first post (where he voted Tazaro) about some of the last posts and then poof.

Seriously, I'd like to ask people who say Aran has scumhunted or been pro-town so far to tell me who his suspects are and why.

Again, I'm not really into the lyncher guessing. I just think that, so far, he hasn't scumhunted but fabricated a case which he later took back. I'm waiting to see if there's genuine scumhunting intent at some point.

Again, you are defending Aran similarly to how Tazaro did. With no reason. You talk generalities. Why was he pro town?

I also noticed that all your evidence is from Day 1/very early Day 2. Given that I'm your top suspect, I was kind of hoping that you would provide more recent examples of why I am scummy. Your case on me is dated.

QFT.
---------------------------
We need Aran and sotty now.

HP

[Oso]

Going to be at least one m,ore day for Sotty. From the Day Post:

Sotty7 has notified me she will be V/LA until Wednesday 11th.

[Oso]

Also, you said before that there couldn't be that much PRs... And now there's 1 more, apparently.

Apparently. But Sotty, she did have a good point here in Post 634

...
He is trying to run me out on a POE but is now some how convinced that he knows who the scum targeted last night. It's all shaky reasoning with no basis in fact outside his own assumptions. Also has zero consideration for possible scum power roles.

If everyone who has claimed a power is telling the truth, don't you think the scum would have some counter to that?

Again, despite what I think about Sotty's alignment at the moment, the bolded is a

VERY

good point. Some of these people we have running around at night (claimed and unclaimed) aren't guaranteed to be town roles. Right now, I'm going on diddin and vezo being town because neither of them have acted scummy enough to override a non-countered, Town PR claim. And there is no evidence in the thread as yet that they have lied about their role.

[vezokpiraka]

The last person who visited Humble is either scum PR or protective role.
It's not like we have another information gatherer.
It doesn't help the town at all to know who is that. If scum know who is it they will either NK him or WIFOM us to death.

[Oso]

I disagree, vezo. If you think it is another protective role then that throws diddin's claim into direct doubt. Granted there is no guarantee their isn't two protective roles in the game but that is highly unusual in a mini.

But for the moment I'll lay off.

@Poirot

..
I'm not dead. But you're saying scum visited me last night. I'm thinking you're scum RB and want to find yet another town PR.

You said that about diddin. Something I'd like to point out. Yesterday you jumped on me a bit because I said it was possible that diddin blocked Sotty from killing rather than protecting her. What changed that now you think diddin might be scum? If he did in fact protect her (and that is why we have no night kill for night 1) then by that reasoning alone, diddin should be getting a huge town read in your book.

If you think Sooty was saved from a kill night 1, then the only person that could have done it at this point is diddin.

[diddin]

I have strong doubts it's another protective role. Oso brought up a statistic in the neighbor chat that only 14% of the past 50 Mini normals had 2 protective roles, and a game with two investigative PR's and two protective PR's would just be broken. He then went on to say he's seen a setup like this before with a watcher and a cop-type PR with a jailkeeper to prevent town from becoming overpowered, as the JK can protect one at the cost of blocking their power for the night.

[Oso]

Pretty close to what I said. The 'saw that set-up' remark wasn't in reference to game though. Rather it was an MD discussion thread (that is what I linked to). Basically where the discussion center around (in part) using a combination of weaker roles to perhaps replace a traditional cop role.

We have a dead cop though. And that is not speculation.

The 14% percent figure re:Protectives in the last 50 games, I got from Hoopla. I didn't get that on my own. But I have no reason to think it isn't true as Hoopla is really into her stats. Whether she was using the stats for good or bad, I have no doubt the stats hold up by themselves.

[xvart]

@diddin, 717 - throwing a lot of suspicion around? so you think humble might be scum? yet you later you suggest that the other person who visited humble (besides KL) is scum? why would scum visit scum? you are going pr fishing hardcore.

@ssbf, 718 - i wanted diddin to answer first because i have been susicious of his claim. i thought that would be obvious by now. i didnt want diddin modifying his claim around vezok.

@diddin, 726 - again, role fishing. apparently there were two visitors to humble last night. i ask again, why is the second auto scum? the only suggestion so far has been a scum rb'er. why would scum rb'er go for humble instead of a watcher?

i know why; because the scum rb'er couldn't go for vezok because that would be scummy and you couldn;t afford to look scummy since you are already outted.

@727, q21 - agreed about ssbf and knowing quadz flip. although diddin is much scummier.

how about we stop relying on pr's to scumhunt and just scumhunt? diddin is scum city. he should have been lynched yesterday.

vote: diddin

won't be posting much more for a while. this little post zapped all my energy but i had to come in before the town imploded. typing one handed sucks.

xvart.

[q21]

SSBF: I'm not going to argue every point with you. For the most part I've made my points and you've made your rebuttals, people can make up there own minds. There are, however a couple I'd like to mention.

The bolded makes no sense. quadz calls you out for your claim that defending people is a scumtell and quadz defends someone. There is no hypocrisy there, there is the complete opposite, consistency. If he'd been the one to say "defending is a scumtell" and then defended someone, that would be hypocrisy.

SSBF is trying to look like he's adding something to the quadz case that was going on, labelling something hypocrisy because it hypocrisy is a scummy buzzword - not because that's what actually happened.

Bolded: Are you ignoring the part where I called him out for using AtE and not doing a very good job with his case on me? So you're saying that I added nothing to quadz08's caes then?

The AtE was barely that and you were wishy-washy about calling him on it.
As to the other part, what you wrote was :

I also find it odd that despite him attacking vezokpiraka, that he's currently going after me. He showed us more evidence that vezokpiraka was scum then I was, yet has a vote one me.

Sentence one,: there's nothing wrong with suspecting two people at once. Sentence two: I disagree, he'd attacked vezo at one or two points along the way and he had also back off vezo for one or two points along the way; you, he set out specifically to make a case against.

I also noticed that all your evidence is from Day 1/very early Day 2. Given that I'm your top suspect, I was kind of hoping that you would provide more recent examples of why I am scummy. Your case on me is dated.

The vast majority of your day 2 play is characterised by: Attacking Vezo; attacking Tazaro; attacking vezo and Tazaro together. There is also a bandwagon analysis right at the beginning of the day which is decent, but indicative of intellect more than alignment.
The point can be made that you're only going after the easy targets, but that point is lessened by the fact that going after Tazaro is mostly a null tell. His play warranted pretty much every attack levelled against it and was worth every vote on him. People on his lynch are just as easily town targeting scummy play as scum targeting the easy mislynch.

The only point worth raising among your attacks on Tazaro is this one:

And Tazaro, for the love of god don't replace out. You replaced in for a person who would be V/LA for too long to play the game, for you to replace out via request would be disrespectful to the game. I'd rather have you lynched today.

His replacing out might have filled a town spot with a more reasonable player. Reads like you're scared that if he is replaced by a reasonable player you lose your easy lynch.


Moving on.

@q21

Says he doesn't want to defend Tasky and then... defends Tasky. Its like he doesn't actually want to call Tasky town because that might serve to decrease his targets for a potential mislynch, but he knows he can look involved if he weighs in on the Tasky situation. What he ends up doing is getting caught between the two.

Dude... Do you even remember why you guys were going after Tasky? You were going at him because Tasky had asked some questions and that was supposed to be a mild attempt to end the rvs (which according to vezok, meant scum).

What you're doing is terrible. You're dismissing the whole context of situations and going for the A did B -> that must be a scumtell.

In context there was little to no reason to believe Tasky was scummy outside of the issues raised around those questions. Friend was defending him with respect to that, but still made sure to say he still thought Tasky might be scummy.

Oh, Good Lord! I'd forgotten how much Humble writes. I'm not going to half read him and a whole read would take more time than I have right now. That will have to wait until a later time. From memory his plays has been fairly town - but maybe he's just using lots of words to obfuscate his scumminess. Jury is still out on him for me.

I try to be as clear as possible. If you want to ask me anything about the game and want me to be brief just say so. Anyway, Humble may be smart scum... I seem to remember that... If you feel I'm deliberately obfuscating my posts somehow please point to me where and why.

@q21

: Yesterday you voted diddin for the L-1 and asked for a claim. Next you voted Tazaro and left. Why is diddin town JK and not anything else?

read through the beginning of the game, looking at the Tasky wagon as a starting point because we now know he's town. I think there's scum on there

Another non-statement. Scum, is likely to be in the waggon. Also, you were on the waggon too. What about it?

You dismiss players just because they claimed something? Their motives do not matter?

diddin - Jailkeeper claim. It could be scum RB, but I'm not feeling that. I'm against lynching the claimed JK today. (interestingly enough, my stances on Oso and diddin mean that from a game setup standpoint I don't mind a Humble lynch. Will have to reread him to see if I'm also fine with it from a play standpoint.)

Of course you don't. Based on what arguments would you lynch me?

Firstly, I didn't say you were obfuscating I said you may be. On the weekend I will reread you and I will decide one way or the other. Then, if there are instances, I will bring them up.
Secondly, I was not on that wagon. At no point on Day 1 did I vote for Tasky.
It would be too strong to say I 100% believe diddn's claim, but I'm not interested just now in lynching the uncounter-claimed protective role. I don't think Oso is scum. These views give me reason to want to reread you as in this situation I need to think you may be scum from both the standpoints of the setup and your play. If after a proper read of you I have genuinely no valid reason to suspect you I think I'll go back to suspecting diddin.

SSBF - Only one left, so off to look at his play

Oh my... Do I sense you're pulling "Thea Aran stunt" against SSBF? Look at everything he posted and try to find something scummy about it in retrospect?

The worst thing is that many of the things you say now, you had the opportunity to say in the past and didn't.

Maybe in game time I had the opportunity, but in RL time I didn't.

[Oso]

..

how about we stop relying on pr's to scumhunt and just scumhunt?

diddin is scum city. he should have been lynched yesterday.

quadz08, Vanilla Townie, was lynched Day 1.
Tazaro Tasky, Vanilla Townie, was lynched Day 2.

KageLord, Town Cop, was killed Night 2.

Usual methods aren't working in case you didn't notice. And I'm not advocating we use the PRs to lead us by the nose.

I will point out the same thing to you xvart as I did to Poirot.

Night 1-No Kill. diddin is (so far) the only claimed RB/Protector of any sort. If you think it too ridiculous to assume that scum didn't kill night 1 then where is kill? How could it have been prevented? Save on the target, block on the killer? What went wrong - what might have went right (use both town and scum perspectives on those last two)?

If you are thinking that scum intended to kill, diddin prevented a kill with his actions. How can you even consider voting him? He'd obviously be town no matter what his play is like.

If his play is so bad that you would lynch him despite the claim, then why no Night 1 Kill? I don't know about you, but I can't reconcile a No Kill and still think diddin could be scum. If you can reconcile it, please enlighten me.

[Sotty7]

I am back and catching up.

[Oso]

Oh shoot.

Forgot. Hope your surgery went well xvart and everything is OK.

Wecome back Sotty

[Sotty7]

Okay, so Kage's flip does point towards Oso town. I'm not willing to lynch him any more.

My suspects right now are diddin, q21, Aranneas. I am struggling to believe all the power roles claimed are town, diddin looks even scummier to me if whoever vezo saw last night is actually a doc because that would be another plausible reason for why there was a no kill on night one.

I'm still kinda out of it, will need to re-read some more to figure out where I want to place my vote.

Mod: Can we get a prod on Aranneas? He hasn't posted since day opened

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

I will get to Humble Poirot's post about me and my bandwagon analysis tomorrow. I got way too caught up in Marathon Day and a Marathon game is coming up. However, I will get those done tomorrow among other things if I find something I want to bring up. However, I do want to get to q21's point against me.

The AtE was barely that and you were wishy-washy about calling him on it.

The AtE is where quadz08 complains about his wishy-washy play style. While it isn't exactly clear-cut, it is still there.

Also, as I'm assuming you're calling me wishy-washy about my AtE attack on quadz08, I'm not seeing it. I thought I made it pretty clear that I didn't like the AtE from him.

Sentence one,: there's nothing wrong with suspecting two people at once.

That is true, but when you put more focus on someone who you suspect less then who is your top suspect, that's a problem. Your main focus should always be your top suspect. Now that doesn't mean you have to go and tunnel them until they die, but focusing more on your lesser suspicion overall then your top suspect doesn't make sense.

Sentence two: I disagree, he'd attacked vezo at one or two points along the way and he had also back off vezo for one or two points along the way; you, he set out specifically to make a case against.

What he said he didn't like out of vezokpiraka:

- vezokpiraka's calling Tasky out for "subtly" ending the RVS.
- vezokpiraka saying that quick lynches were beneficial.
- Providing very little of his opinions.
- Making a pretty heavy contradiction. Which is where vezokpiraka complains about the game getting boring because no one is asking questions to him but then saying another player needs to do his own work and not active lurk.

That's four things he's done that I can think off my head.

His case on me is quite frankly, lackluster and I already explained why it was.

The vast majority of your day 2 play is characterised by: Attacking Vezo; attacking Tazaro; attacking vezo and Tazaro together. There is also a bandwagon analysis right at the beginning of the day which is decent, but indicative of intellect more than alignment.

To be honest, you did a lot less Day 2 then I did. All you really did Day 2 was attack diddin and attack Tazaro. If you want me to name off every single thing I did Day 2, I will.

His replacing out might have filled a town spot with a more reasonable player. Reads like you're scared that if he is replaced by a reasonable player you lose your easy lynch.

I was glad that Tazaro did not replace out and it's not because he's an easy target. It's because I don't want anyone to replace a person who flaked out/went V/LA for a period that required them to replace out and then intention ask them to replace out due to pressure from other people/bad play. It's disrespectful to the players and the mod and I have low tolerance for people who replace out for reasons like that.

[xvart]

@oso, 741 - i wasn't singling anyone out about following pr's. however, diddin is not playing like a town pr (see my first point in my last post). thinking again, if diddin is scum rb'er and there is another protective town pr then scum has to be careful on their kills because if they kill the possible protective role them they bury one of their own and scumdiddin can't do a scummy "JK" or else he goes down. basically, even if scum, he has to play like town and only target either his buddies or someone town and hope to grab the possible unknown town pr. with this mind:

unvote

(and thank you for the well wishes; it went well but i am sore as can be and fall in and out of sleep a lot)

I'm going to go ahead and say that these three are scum: diddin, ssbf, sotty, assuming that ara is lyncher. i am confident on any of their lynches. however, we do need to sort out the ara business, are we in lylo? i don't have the mental function now to do the projections and math.

if diddin flips scum it implicates sotty as partner and that leaves ssbf as the third by town hunting everyone else. the only wildcard is ara, which might screw my reads up.

i'm also going to go ahead and suggest vezok watch whomever the other visitor was tonight since scum is probably looking for that person.

xvart.

[Oso]

@xvart: That was what I was waiting for. At least one person who seems willing to listen (as an aside, unless there are 4 scum, we are not in lylo. If we are then we are screwed I think no matter what we do )

I don't think there is another protective role.

I'm going to claim, ask you folks to consider a question then finally ask vezo again to give his results.

Claim: I am yet another PR

(no full claim or results yet. Why will become clear at the end of this post).

First, I'm going to ask you to consider KageLord, the only confirmed PR in the game at the moment. When he said he considered me town, do you think he actually got a “Guilty” result on me and he was hoping that by hinting I was town, he would get another night? We can't know for sure what result he got. I know what my alignment is, and it's town, but you folks don't. He died without giving that information so it is ambiguous at best. The reason I ask you to consider this is because the rest that follows is my flat out asking you folks to extend some trust to me on this. At least as far as helping to convince vezo give out with his results.

I got a result last night (and the night before) so on the face of it, diddin's claim that he jailed me last night is false (please notice I didn't say he lied).

From what people have said they did and saw last night, I can give town pretty solid evidence of one scum. There is also a certainty, if vezo names one particular player, that vezo himself is lying about the second visitor to Poirot last night, so we have a chance of getting two scum outed today with this. One if vezo is telling the truth (or at least not lying where it can be seen), and two if vezo names that one particular player.

Of course, after vezo gives that second player, I will fully claim. I won't even press to get that second player claimed (if they decide to before night though, they won't get any argument out of me esp. if they decide what I bring forth helps them nail another scum). We will be too busy lynching scum to really need that.

[Sotty7]

xvart, why are you suddenly confidant I am scum?

I think we are going to be heading very quickly into mass claim here. Oso, are you saying you want vezo to claim his result and then you will claim yours? I'm not exactly sure where you are heading with the above post but if that's the point then I am behind you. I'm willing to believe Kage got an innocent on you, he was outted yesterday and if he had a guilty he would have just come out with it at that point.

[diddin]

Did anyone else see what Kage said before it got snipped? It might be game relevant, but I don't want to post it without the mod's consent.