/Invitational 11: Pick your Poison 5 (Game Over)

[zoraster]

She would. In fact, the "gambit" to show your town seems very DGB to me. In fact, it seems engineered to do just that. There was little to no town gain in what she did, even theoretically. Yet it came at an obvious price. But by doing the fake gambit, she gets town points because she's pretty confident people will take it the way you do.

anyway, my question was still about your criteria to your actual selections. They seem to be not so related.

Not only are you dispensing from scum hunting announcing right out of the gate that you'll be tunneling on me, but you're also trying to make sure I don't hunt scum.

FAIL

Caught you

DIE SCUM DIE

vote: zoraster

I am scum hunting. I went hunting and found the likeliest scum. I suppose you'd prefer I start randomly voting and act off of low information rather than that high-level scuminess? No. The best scum hunting comes from going after people who are acting scummy, and you're number one.

I'm not preventing you from hunting scum at all. Is there a reason you cannot do so? Perhaps you're less effective when being attacked, but you don't get a "super scum hunter" badge that makes you immune from being hunted. That said, if you did have such a badge, you would have had to give it to the chief along with your sidearm for the anti-town stunt you pulled.

[zoraster]

Why are you voting in that manner based on the events of Day 0 while you were basically completely uninterested in getting views and so on during it?

I'm voting Hoopla cuz she's scum. Zoraster's pretty upset about it too, look how this is paying dividends already.

I'm not upset you're voting Hoopla. I'm upset you're voting people and then refusing to say why. And for defending people without saying why. If you don't want to play the game, don't sign up for the game.

[Rhinox]

4 u elmo

Hoopla: Now that you've had time to get over being dazzled, what do you think of DGB's action (and the response to it)?

I'm still relatively dazzled to be honest. I am still learning how to read DGB, because I failed my education the first time.

If you don't know how to read DGB, then how did you know she was faking her claim?

[Mr. Flay]

Second Vote Count of Day One

zoraster (2) -- DrippingGoofball, VasudeVa
Kmd4390 (2) -- Elmo, Rhinox
DrippingGoofball (1) -- zoraster
Hoopla (1) -- Papa Zito
ooba (1) -- Hoopla
Rhinox (1) -- ooba
Herodotus (1) -- SpyreX

Not Voting (11) -- Amished, ekiM, Ellibereth, Herodotus, Kmd4390, mith, My Milked Eek, Plumegranate, populartajo, Slicey, Zorblag

With 20 alive, 11 votes will be needed to lynch. Deadline: 25th of August, at 12:30 am US Central Time.

[SpyreX]

Ohh and oobster I'll be nice enough to not unleash flaming fire YET but go ahead and give more details for your list of 10 scum there.

Double points for showing how each of them fit.

[Hoopla]

If you don't know how to read DGB, then how did you know she was faking her claim?

DGB does bizarre things as town and scum. It was significantly more likely that she faking than the town firstly having a Hider, then that role miraculously landing on DGB of all people. That would have been less than a 5% chance, and I don't think anyone who has played a game with her would deny the odds of her claiming Hider when she was not a Hider was lower than that.

I can't read DGB's motivations behind

why

she does the things she does other than 'LOL GAMBIT'. Can you? Because I could see scum and town DGB pulling that stunt.

[Plum]

I'm not sure I see the connection between your criteria and where people are located, ooba. I'd love to hear how you square DGB with being town, even if you just mechanically try to apply those criteria you listed.

Forgot to add - I cannot see scum ever gambitting like that ... Puts a lot of pressure on her at the start of the game. The only probable trade-off is that Janitor was hammered. In fact if I was scum, I would have probably lurked it out until Assassin was hammered too and then declared gambit at start of D1 to increase payoffs of move.

DGB does this stuff regardless of alignment. You're one to talk about suggesting original things, keeping a low profile, or agreeing with massclaim, just by the way. I was doing a bit of a reread and then my browser crashed, but your first post smelled strongly regurgitated material and the rest haven't been stellar on that count. And you managed to comment on massclaim without saying anything either way by merely discussing which roles we should give in the case of massclaim. If I were using your criteria - which are decent starting points given the information we have at this point - I'd have to put you in the scum category there.

The switch from lets massclaim to massclaiming is bad as a function of the snipes with mith is bad. The push for assassin/rolecop under very, very weak logic is extra bad. Add in a dash of secret gut reasons (TM) and we've got us a stew.

Hero's arguments for Assassin/Rolecop (easily the worst synergetic combo even given a Hider claim) remind me of Rhinox's arguments that Assassin is good because it reduces the lynch pool the way a Vig would. AARgh. I may join you thar, still don't have a full hold on the game, too many people with too many wallposts makes for mediocre recall. I'd rather vote for the player who would fit on his own scumlist right now.

VOTE: ooba

[Plumegranate]

Crud, sorry. Repost for ISO POWA.

I'm not sure I see the connection between your criteria and where people are located, ooba. I'd love to hear how you square DGB with being town, even if you just mechanically try to apply those criteria you listed.

Forgot to add - I cannot see scum ever gambitting like that ... Puts a lot of pressure on her at the start of the game. The only probable trade-off is that Janitor was hammered. In fact if I was scum, I would have probably lurked it out until Assassin was hammered too and then declared gambit at start of D1 to increase payoffs of move.

DGB does this stuff regardless of alignment. You're one to talk about suggesting original things, keeping a low profile, or agreeing with massclaim, just by the way. I was doing a bit of a reread and then my browser crashed, but your first post smelled strongly regurgitated material and the rest haven't been stellar on that count. And you managed to comment on massclaim without saying anything either way by merely discussing which roles we should give in the case of massclaim. If I were using your criteria - which are decent starting points given the information we have at this point - I'd have to put you in the scum category there.

The switch from lets massclaim to massclaiming is bad as a function of the snipes with mith is bad. The push for assassin/rolecop under very, very weak logic is extra bad. Add in a dash of secret gut reasons (TM) and we've got us a stew.

Hero's arguments for Assassin/Rolecop (easily the worst synergetic combo even given a Hider claim) remind me of Rhinox's arguments that Assassin is good because it reduces the lynch pool the way a Vig would. AARgh. I may join you thar, still don't have a full hold on the game, too many people with too many wallposts makes for mediocre recall. I'd rather vote for the player who would fit on his own scumlist right now.

VOTE: ooba

[Plumegranate]

EBWOP: And VOTE: ooba in case the last didn't go through as it was posted by Plum.

[VasudeVa]

I don't like 'ooba's I have more scum reads than town reads' wall.

Vote: ooba

Also, you're reading way too much into that.

[DrippingGoofball]

I don't like 'ooba's I have more scum reads than town reads' wall.

^^^ THIS is why you're voting ooba, of all reasons???

That happens to me all the time, having more suspects than there can be scum player slots, and it drives me up the wall when people run up a wagon because I suspect 4 players when there is, say, no more than 2 scums left or something.

[populartajo]

Quick Post because Im leaving for party now.

Ooba is town, even if his reasons for calling people town and scum are silly (Ill explain why when I come back). No scum will force himself to opinions of all the players in RVS. DGB and zor prob town too. Stop wasting time.

Vote: Amished.

100% gut. Ill try to hunt for the reason that made me feel bad about this guy when I come back as well.

[mith]

Hoopla: DGB gambits as scum and town. This is true. DGB does not, however, gambit arbitrarily - she has reasons for her actions (more than just "teehee, if I do inane things all the time, no one will be able to read me!", though that likely plays some not insignificant part in her meta-building). As town, DGB does try to do unexpected things to cause the scum to slip up (even when those unexpected things have negative consequences for the town, as was the case here). As scum, DGB likes WIFOM, getting the town to focus on the wrong things, and setting up mislynches - often in ways which in retrospect are blatantly scummy, but which are written off as DGB-being-DGB.

Look past the word "gambit", at the details of her action. What was her motivation? Was it, as she claims, to get reactions and scumhunt? Were her expectations for those reactions reasonable? More importantly, do you think

she

expected those things? Was it reasonable for her to assume there would be no further Hider claim? Do you think the timing (deadline) or situation (partial-massclaim) would make town-DGB hesitate?

"I am still learning how to read DGB" is a cop out. We're all "learning" to read DGB, and everyone else in the game - it may have been a while since I last played, but I'm pretty sure no one has demonstrated the ability to read other players perfectly. If you're town, take a stab at it. If you're scum, make something up, and then we'll lynch you for it. No pressure.

(Current Top 4, in no particular order: DrippingGoofball, Hoopla, My Milked Eek, zoraster)

[zoraster]

Why MME, mith? Three of your four top 4 are pretty active and have had suspicion on them from others. I don't think that's true of MME.

[VasudeVa]

I don't like 'ooba's I have more scum reads than town reads' wall.

^^^ THIS is why you're voting ooba, of all reasons???

That happens to me all the time, having more suspects than there can be scum player slots, and it drives me up the wall when people run up a wagon because I suspect 4 players when there is, say, no more than 2 scums left or something.

Okay then, let me elaborate.

I'm voting ooba because his long wall of scum is suspicious. His scum reads are either lurker attacks or some weird graspy case, his neutral reads are weird as hell and I have no idea why the hell they are in there for the reasons posted and his Town reads are like 'this person suggested something lol'. Something is off with it and I don't like it.

[Amished]

@Tajo: I think I know why you think I'm scum, and you're wrong.

Vote: Hoopla

"learning how to read DGB" then bringing up the odds of it landing on DGB are incredibly weak reasons for suspicion. It's just as likely that it lands on anybody else; and the comment about how it was unlikely that they would've given us a hider just sounds like inside information to me.

Random suspicion to Troll and Ooba here.

[Elmo]

Scum

5). Elmo
- For "This is looking an awful lot like scum-you, no? You're getting all this from Day 0?"
- Can you give me meta where elli has posted a list like this before?

I was Elli's scumbuddy in Teleportation Mafia, where I told him I thought his rather blasé attitude towards putting people on his town list (in the sense that he did it frequently and for weak reasons) was probably a tell. I subsequently saw him as town in a newbie game I modded, which largely confirmed my view. I'm not really sure why this would land me in the scum section; I am

very

interested that Elli could get alignment reads but (from memory) had very little analysis to contribute. Two should go together.

DGB is absolutely 100% capable of pulling the aforementioned as scum. Anyone seriously thinking otherwise is doing it wrong, period.
I don't really like ooba's or Elli's play, but I don't think it's scummy; I don't agree with tajo's reason, but I don't mind it - I don't think anyone is strongly committed by it, so "scum don't like to commit themselves" is less valid.

I'm voting Hoopla cuz she's scum. Zoraster's pretty upset about it too, look how this is paying dividends already.

Let's restate. You think she's scum, clearly voting her is fine, but that is based on things that happened in Day 0; so you must have suspected her back then, but didn't question or pressure her, in order to get good info for later. To me, it looks a little like you didn't actually do anything until Day 1, where you're sort-of-required to throw a vote out. Do you see my view?

Hero's arguments for Assassin/Rolecop (easily the worst synergetic combo even given a Hider claim) remind me of Rhinox's arguments that Assassin is good because it reduces the lynch pool the way a Vig would. AARgh. I may join you thar, still don't have a full hold on the game, too many people with too many wallposts makes for mediocre recall. I'd rather vote for the player who would fit on his own scumlist right now.

This is largely goodposting, and I disagree with the last sentence largely because I suspect this is fairly usual for ooba. This Hero business is relevant to my interests, and I should look back soon - but let's ask the burning question:

ooba

, if you believe you have identified pro-town things to do, and used it as the basis for reads (i.e. townies are more likely to be pro-town), why didn't you take steps to do these things yourself?

Hoopla: Right, thanks. I misremembered a few things, that reads better. I think I would be more prone to not lynch a claimed power role; leave it alive, and force them to use the RB shots on them instead of another, suspected role; they can only roleblock one per night; they have to use the NK after RB is used up; and so on. There are few scum roles that get nastier when left alive, other than the janitor; leaving e.g. a claimed tracker alive might be helpful. I am largely trying to understand why you take this view when "standard issue" play seems natural - make them do the work so that they do the work, even though it's inevitable (although I admit you seem one to question accepted wisdom).

[Ellibereth]

Elmo I think I've made frequent lists like that in every large game I've played for a while now. Yeah.
Also, don't get why reads have to come with analysis? Everything Day 0 bored me.

HEY VAS, ARE YOU TOWN?

[Ellibereth]

Amished is prob town.

[Ellibereth]

Vote:KMD4390

Not around at D0 deadline, and last to hider claim. Also, didn't hider claim in #350, even though he surely read #348 and #349 before posting. Prediction: still considering whether scum should fake claim hider in the QT.

This is good point.
Taking him off townlist.

VOTE KMD

[Kmd4390]

Vote Zoraster

---------------

Rhinox, no. Just lazy. Didn't know the hider claim thing was going on. I don't think I actually saw 348 or 349. I was bored of the whole "what roles should we give scum" discussion and was pretty much waiting for the actual game, so I skimmed over the role related stuff.

---------------

Tajo is town, but I disagree with most of what he says.

---------------

Elmo is town. I also will be willing to listen to any meta tells he has on Elli. Scumbuddy followed by mod-town is a great way to pick up meta.

[Hoopla]

mith, I think you are falling victim to applying conventional scumtells to an unconventional player. You've identified the gambit as having more benefits for scum than town and you are twisting what you have seen to assume this was a deliberate ploy to reap those benefits as scum. In this post, I'll try to show you why that is wrong.

Initially, the game was booming with theoretical powerrole talk, with many players heavily invested in determining what the best long-term strategy was. It was obvious to any observer that a small faction emerged espousing the

'fuck it, lets just scumhunt'

point of view, which at it's core is passionately town, cleverly anti-town or just lazy. This group slowly ballooned as the game grew, swallowing more players who also wanted to get on with it, indifferent to what was decided on - just as long as we had a plan. I admit, towards the end, I was a little flustered too and just wanted to pick something - there were merits to a lot of plans. I place DGB squarely at the forefront of this movement, though. Her influence was minimal due to her absence, but she was clearly not up-to-date with the game, interested in the powerrole talk and I'd suggest not aware of what the consequences were for whatever number of hiders was discovered.

I struggle to believe DGB would have known players would have swapped their votes to a Janitor based on her claim alone - I personally did not see that coming, and I think I was more invested in the game at the time than her. But this is precisely the thing that DGB is getting grilled for - the result. Even though it is unlikely she knew this result would transpire. At best, the scum motivation for her is; doing something risky than would accrue small town points and/or causing a bit of chaos and passing it off as a scumhunting attempt. And that

potential

motivation is not enough of a crime for me to suspect her, even if it generated disasterous results.

I find it strange you also acknowledge that DGB is difficult to read, but want me to unearth her motivations off of ONE post. Granted, this post was a significant event in the game, and ordinarily it would be very illuminating on someone else's alignment, but this has a much more sedated importance purely because it is something expected from her. I choose to take an ambivalent perspective on this, because the motivations for this as scum is roughly on par with what the motivations were for town. The burden of proof is on you to tell me

why

this is pro-town or pro-scum move, without appealing to the consequences of what happened, unless you can also prove she could have expected this result. If you cannot do this, or unearth separate motivations independent of the result, then I am quite rightly justified in choosing an ambivalent stance to this event, because your argument boils down to 'she could quite easily do this as scum, so I think she is scum' - and that won't fly with me.

[Hoopla]

A question for DGB: Am I town?

[Hoopla]

Unvote

My vote on ooba is no longer warranted, because I agree with his general methods of coming to his reads. With such a mixed bag of opinions and ideas on what the most powerful roles or best combinations are, it's more difficult to discover scum motivation, because it isn't clear what the town motivation was or should have been. During regular games, it is easier to know and understand what town/scum motivations are, because we have a more rigid definition of pro-town and pro-scum, but here I am less sure. I agree to an extent that those proposing original ideas or maintaining/encouraging conversation were likelier to be town, though.

[Amished]

@Hoopla: What? DGB obviously knew that we were claiming hider/not hider. With knowing that; how could she (I'm just gonna call dgb a she) NOT know why we're claiming? That's the biggest dance around the issue that I think I've ever seen.