Mini 1005: Mafiaphobes! (Game over)

[Sotty7]

I'm not the mod, I have no idea who blocked the kill.

To speculate, I think it was me. diddin tried to kill me and when it failed claimed scum JK because he was being run up.

[xvart]

You had me pretty much convinced to vote sotty after that post, only one thing about a possible PR that xvart could have made me think diddin was scum, but then I looked at the whole game and decided it wasn't likely based on xvart's lack of conviction in one of his cases.

Can you explain this more? Which case of mine are you referring to?

re: vezok - I;m more skeptical of vezok flipping town alignment due to there also being a tracker. I think Oso is probable town based on his presentation. Controlling who vezok watches will help us tremendously regardless.

Although his claim is more believable; I am not on the diddin is 100% town train yet. I still think it is possible that diddin could be scum that claimed sotty's rb targets when he was put under pressure.

I don't think it is necessary for me to claim right now, and i think if i die any information I have will be obvious. however, it might be helpful. i will claim if deemed necessary.

xvart.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Just want to remind people that Sotty7 is at L-1.

Why vote the possible scum watcher and not the most likely scum RB? We can tie the hands of the watcher but we can't do the same with the RB.

For two reasons:

1. I originally had a town read on Sotty7 while always had a scum read of some sort on vezokpiraka. Which one do you think I'm going to vote now that they're both suspicious? It makes sense to go with someone you always suspected, especially if they remain consistency scummy. While Oso gave out some damning evidence regarding Sotty7-scum, vezokpiraka was always scummy and him watching you when he should have been watching Oso/KageLord indicates that he's more likely to be mafia.

2. I do not want to jump on a bandwagon which goes by other people reasons and not mine as well. Yes I am suspicious of Sotty7, but my reasons for suspecting her has already been said by Oso. Unless she gets so scummy that she's obvious scum, I will not vote her until I find some evidence of my own supporting her being scum.

[Humble Poirot]

I'll

unvote

to prevent foul play but consider me voting sotty. I'm editing a post.

[Oso]

..
Although his claim is more believable; I am not on the diddin is 100% town train yet. I still think it is possible that diddin could be scum that claimed sotty's rb targets when he was put under pressure.
..

Um, I think I might be misunderstanding what you are trying to say.

How would he know Sotty's RB targets? Unless you think he knew he was blocked Night 1 but then how would he know Sotty did it?

Like I said, I am probably misunderstanding what you are trying to say.

[Humble Poirot]

Heh, I'm here. I was interrupted.

I'm not the mod, I have no idea who blocked the kill. To speculate, I think it was me. diddin tried to kill me and when it failed claimed scum JK because he was being run up.

And you didn't think about any of this before?

Your reaction to diddin's claim was too mild knowing you had blocked him and that there hadn't been a kill.

Just skimming I noticed the claim and I can't confirm anything diddin said. Gonna read what I missed while I think over this claim. Gut says "JK neighbor" isn't very normal.

From your alleged point of view, you knew you couldn't have been protected by diddin but you never tried to discourage that theory. You
even proposed it as an alternative when discussing with Oso.

I have seen mafia watcher a few times before but I wouldn't class it as common role. Jail keeper on the other hand is becoming more a more
common these days, at least in my experience. A lot has happened and I think I will need to re-read a few times to process it all a figure out
where my vote should go.

Then, your denial of any relation between your role and diddin's. I could understand you saying this with any other role, because Oso's theory focused on the fact that you might've been blocked, but knowing you were a roleblocker... This was strange.

My suspects right now are diddin, q21, Aranneas. I am struggling to believe all the power roles claimed are town, diddin looks even scummier to me if whoever vezo saw last night is actually a doc because that would be another plausible reason for why there was a no kill on night one.

Weird how you never considered your own block as a possibility for the no kill.

@Sotty: Why are you voting diddin now? What has changed?

You had me pretty much convinced to vote sotty after that post, only one thing about a possible PR that xvart could have made me think diddin was scum, but then I looked at the whole game and decided it wasn't likely based on xvart's lack of conviction in one of his cases.

Can you explain this more? Which case of mine are you referring to?

I was kinda vague to give avoid giving you clues as to what to claim if you were, in fact, scum. What I suspected when I read you had visited me was that you were a doctor (see my self-centered attitude? That's why I didn't doubt Vezok either, I'm a shame to my name). If you were a doctor, that meant diddin was scum RB and that you had been going at him during a big part of this game for that reason. Later, I did some more research and came across the fact that you had unvoted diddin, which made no sense if you had that role.

Although his claim is more believable; I am not on the diddin is 100% town train yet. I still think it is possible that diddin could be scum that claimed sotty's rb targets when he was put under pressure.

You're suggesting diddin and sotty are scum together? What about the no kill?

I don't think it is necessary for me to claim right now, and i think if i die any information I have will be obvious.

mmm... Obvious? Without knowing who you visited night 1? As long as we're on the subject, why didn't you volunteer that information? I'm having a hard time trying to figure out your role (based on your actions). Granted, I'm trying to outguess alignments and roles of many players in a poor attempt to form a balanced setup but I still wonder.

Right now, I lean towards a claim today, which will give us more planning width and ensure we know your information but I'll wait to see what Oso has to say about it.
PREV EDIT:

@Oso? What say you?

@SSBF: I'm aware you had a scum read on vezok and a town read on Sotty. I thought along the same lines. The difference is that I see sotty must be scum due to Oso's claim in a very direct way. Vezok being scum is not as straightforward.

1. Oso uncovered Sotty -> Sotty claims RB who blocked diddin x2 -> Sotty's actions day 2 do not reflect what he claims to have done in any way. -> Sotty is probably lying.
   
   
2. That deduction plus the minor guess that roleblocker and jailkeeper in the same alignment is unlikely makes it almost foolproof.
   
   
3. Oso's townness is laid out strongly after his early claim where he went all out. It's very hard to find a scum motivation for it.
   
   
4. Vezok, on the other hand, has been scummy all game but was excused by his claim. His scummyness has not changed and it would be hard to decide if he might not be as awful as town but the most noteworthy addition IMHO is that the watcher+tracker+cop+JK combo seems extremely unlikely and the rest of the players have to be town.
   
   
5. Not only the evidence surely condmens Sotty but his role is much more prejudicial to town and can't be controled like Vezok's watch can.

About Vezok's watch. I didn't find the anomaly in vezok's behaviour when he claimed he watched me. Did you?

As you see, I don't deal with absolutes. This is, after all, a guessing game at some point, but I'm basing myself in motives and logic.

2- I'm not saying you shouldn't scumhunt. I'm the first one to suggest we hunt everywhere. What does it matter if Oso was the one that got the info and that we didn't think Sotty was scummy before? Right now, we have the information and it tells us that sotty is scum in all likelyhood.

[Oso]

Right now, I lean towards a claim today, which will give us more planning width and ensure we know your information but I'll wait to see what Oso has to say about it.
PREV EDIT: @Oso? What say you?

I have a town read on xvart. A strong one as I indicated.

I like having as much information as possible as soon as possible. That's the way I am. But, time for some trust on my part. If he says we are better off without his claim today and that he will bring it forward when it can do the most good, I can live with that.

[diddin]

I'm ok with the sotty lynch as soon as possible.

If Sotty flips scum and vezo flips town, I'll be heavily suspicious of SSBF.

[xvart]

Vote: diddin

How confident, percentage wise, are you that diddin is scum? Like if we decided to lynch diddin instead of you based on what you said are you so sure that he will flip scum?

To speculate, I think it was me. diddin tried to kill me and when it failed claimed scum JK because he was being run up.

Why did he try and kill you? If he was blocked why do you assume that he tried to kill you? If he was the killer then why did he make up a fake result when he knew that he was roleblocked. Someone would get him eventually during claim time.

Also, why did you choose to block diddin N1?

If Sotty flips scum and vezo flips town, I'll be heavily suspicious of SSBF.

When do you propose that vezok is going to flip?

Humble

- I'll get to your points in 778 after I get an answer from three people.

SSBF, diddin, and vezok

- if you had to guess and based on what you know, what do you think my night action is? (and yes, there is a point to this question and I will explain fully; I'm not trying to create a claim based on what people think)

xvart.

[xvart]

EBWOP:

I'm ok with the sotty lynch as soon as possible.

Why are you just "okay" with sotty's lynch? If you were the role you claim to be I would think that you of all people would be rip roaring and ready to lynch without haste. Is there any reason you are hesitant?

xvart.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

@xvart: By process of elmination, that would be doctor. If you want me to explain the PoE, I will.

[diddin]

I'm not hesitant, I am just not the kind of person to push so hard when there is still discussion going on. Sotty needs to be dead, but that does not mean I want to cut day short.

I'm think xvart is probably doc or, if vezo is town somehow, some crazy scum role to balance out all these town PR's. However I have a pretty good town read on xvart so I am mostly leaning towards him being town.

[totallynotmafia]

Vote count 3.1

Oso (0)
Humble Poirot (0)
q21 (0)
Aranneas (0)
xvart (0)
diddin (1) Sotty7
vezokpiraka (1) Super Smash Bros. Fan
Sotty7 (3) Oso, diddin, xvart
Super Smash Bros. Fan (1) q21

Not voting: Humble Poirot, Aranneas, vezokpiraka,

With 9 alive, it takes 5 votes to lynch.

Deadline is Monday 23rd August, 11:30 AM (GMT + 10:00).

Prod going out on Aranneas.

[q21]

I will get to Humble Poirot's post about me and my bandwagon analysis tomorrow. I got way too caught up in Marathon Day and a Marathon game is coming up. However, I will get those done tomorrow among other things if I find something I want to bring up. However, I do want to get to q21's point against me.

The AtE was barely that and you were wishy-washy about calling him on it.

The AtE is where quadz08 complains about his wishy-washy play style. While it isn't exactly clear-cut, it is still there.

Also, as I'm assuming you're calling me wishy-washy about my AtE attack on quadz08, I'm not seeing it. I thought I made it pretty clear that I didn't like the AtE from him.

Here is your comment about quadz AtE;

Quadz08: Reading Quadz08 in ISO, #258

feels like

AtE. He admitting to having a problem with his play style instead of actually making a decent response to Poirot's case to him with Poirot made in #252.

Saying it "feels like AtE" is pretty much the definition of wishy-washy.

The vast majority of your day 2 play is characterised by: Attacking Vezo; attacking Tazaro; attacking vezo and Tazaro together. There is also a bandwagon analysis right at the beginning of the day which is decent, but indicative of intellect more than alignment.

To be honest, you did a lot less Day 2 then I did. All you really did Day 2 was attack diddin and attack Tazaro. If you want me to name off every single thing I did Day 2, I will.

I know you did more than me on day 2. I know I also targeted diddin and Tazaro, like you did. That would be most of the reason I didn't attack your day 2 play.

@q21: How come you were able to interact with the game more Day 1 then Day 2? I don't remember you announcing any sort of V/LA's Day 2.

I'm currently busy with my final Chemical Engineering Design Project at university. I haven't bothered to announce any V/LA because its difficult to predict when I will or won't be too busy to play mafia.

Unvote, Vote Sotty

Right now, lynching Sotty is more interesting that lynching SSBF. Or rereading Poirot.

[vezokpiraka]

I think xvart is the doc like I said before.
If you will tell us who you targeted night 1 I may change my opinion.

[Humble Poirot]

Quick post because I need to get some sleep.

@diddin:

Now hold on just a second. You claim to be town jailkeeper and say xvart you think xvart is town doctor? How come?

@SSBF, @Vezok

; You think xvart is a doctor too? So what is diddin? There's two protective roles?

@SSBF:

How is Doctor POE, have you read the wiki? There's lots of roles that could appear in a normal game out there.

I'm ok with the sotty lynch as soon as possible.

If Sotty flips scum and vezo flips town, I'll be heavily suspicious of SSBF.

Explaining why in this game usually helps

@q21:

Why are you voting sotty? You are giving no explanation whatsoever.

[xvart]

What I suspected when I read you had visited me was that you were a doctor (see my self-centered attitude? That's why I didn't doubt Vezok either, I'm a shame to my name). If you were a doctor, that meant diddin was scum RB and that you had been going at him during a big part of this game for that reason. Later, I did some more research and came across the fact that you had unvoted diddin, which made no sense if you had that role.

I am, in fact, the town doctor. I protected Humble both nights. I chose to protect Humble because after my day one lynch mob rallying I knew I wouldn't be targetted, and Humble was the most thoughtful player during day one. I actually considered protecting vezok because of his soft claim on day one. After quadz flipped town I was floored and defeated and was reading way too much into how everyone was acting towards me. I actually got it in my head that maybe Humble was scum that was subtly stroking my ego, especially with post 393 (the PS) being a little too prophetic after the fact. In my protection pm to the mod I said as much, but also said that if I didn't protect Humble and he died I would kill myself, and Humble's comment in 393 was actually just sound town musings. This is why I was so adamant about diddin not being the cause of the no kill night one.

I protected Humble on night two, as well. I strongly considered protecting KageLord due to his soft claim, but I WIFOM'ed myself to death on whether or not the scum would roleblock KageLord and kill an active and thoughtful town. Since vezok had his softclaim day one and survived I figured that KageLord would probably also not be the target and since Watcher's typically do not have the ability to watch themselves I thought that diddin would block KageLord and then pretend to JK someone else, maybe even a partner that would confirm his results.

The reason I unvoted was because of what I said in post 746: if I was the reason that there was no night one kill then the scum know there was a doctor. They also knew that as soon as I flipped that diddin would be outted as scum, so they would have to be careful about the doctor showing up dead. I wasn't really concerned about diddin anymore because I was convinced beyond a doubt that he was not town JK and if I died, that would still become obvious; or it would become obvious when I claimed, so it served no purpose to pursue that train of thought. I also tried to make it look like my suspicion of diddin was waxing (although I knew that was close to impossible) but maybe give me some more credit with scum by saying his claim is more likely to be of town once Oso/Sotty claimed.

You're suggesting diddin and sotty are scum together? What about the no kill?

I think it is a strong possibility given that I am the doctor and there would never be two scum roleblockers possible. What I think is that when diddin got a lot of pressure he claimed sotty's fake claim to try and buy him some time (which worked, as he wasn't lynched). However, he possibly claimed he JK sotty for a couple of reasons: it was unprovable that sotty was the killer, and if we did lynch sotty and sotty flipped scum, it gave him town credit. Sotty is still the best lynch today, and if sotty flips scum RB'er I would suggest to the tracker to follow diddin. If I am correct, diddin will either not go anywhere (if he is a goon) or he will be forced to be the killer and will be tracked to the person who winds up dead (or tracked to the person I protected and stays alive). Both sotty and diddin's claims do not work out together, and it appears to me to be fake scum claims coming unraveled and too interconnected.

The reason I wanted to get answers to the questions I asked to sotty, diddin, and vezok is because I wanted to know if the scum already had the feeling that I was doctor, and I believe that two of those three are scum, if not all three, so withholding my information would serve no purpose. I also wanted to see their answers to have the follow up questions that Humble already asked.

As long as we're on the subject, why didn't you volunteer that information? I'm having a hard time trying to figure out your role (based on your actions).

I was trying to extract as much information as possible from the other claimed protective roles and the others I thought were scum. I actually thought you had/would read between the lines but I was being intentionally vague in some of my conviction or backed off in some areas for self preservation when I figured out my important information would most likely not die with me.

If you read me in ISO I think you'll believe my claim. Humble was the first to suggest that I might be the town doctor, so if you don't want to ISO me just read these three quotes with the consideration of me being the town doctor:

Considering I doubt there are two protective roles in a mini normal, another protective role flips, and I'm in trouble. Why would I take that risk?

This sounds a lot like doctor fishing. There was something else someone said (I think it was you) earlier that I will have to go out and find along the same lines.

Sotty is either the scum who submitted the kill or the person that scum diddin blocked. I find it hard to believe that he would be the kill choice for mafia last night.

Sotty being the kill choice just does make any sense to me from a scum POV.

I'm thinking that diddin is lying, and if diddin flips scum then I think Tazaro is trying to fish out the actual protective role.

Speaking of keeping it simple; I think we need to further scrutinize diddin's claim. The way I see it can go one of two ways:
1. diddin is town and he did block the kill (or killer);
2. diddin is scum roleblocker

and there is another protective role that protected a different target.

----------

@diddin:

Now hold on just a second. You claim to be town jailkeeper and say xvart you think xvart is town doctor? How come?

Especially considering diddin's post 533 when he said:

Considering I doubt there are two protective roles in a mini normal, another protective role flips, and I'm in trouble. Why would I take that risk?

----------

I might be getting ahead of myself (again) in the following, but wanted to go ahead and throw this out there:
The only thing that is troubling me is the amount of power roles on the town side, even if diddin is scum. Having a cop/tracker/doctor/watcher is definitely overpowered for the town. I even think in a 12 person game that cop/tracker or watcher/doctor is overpowered unless there is a counter agent on the scum side. I'm leaning towards vezok being a scum watcher. With a cop/doctor, tracker moving around, it is likely that a watcher was placed on the scum side to help them identify power roles to help eliminate them. Tracker is typically harder to use effectively because you only have to identify someone that would draw a town power role whereas a tracker you have to identify an actual PR, which is more difficult. Even if the watcher is scum, adding a JK to the town side makes it more unbalanced in the town's favor.

Preliminary thoughts make me think that vezok didn't target humble on night one because humble was supposed to die (but was saved due to my protection). It is also possible that he targeted Humble night two since scumvezok would know that Humble was saved and might be a likely save again (or even an investigation, which also occurred).

----------

My full read of the game has changed now that Oso has claimed tracker and his subsequent presentation and townie behavior. Therefore, we have (colored folks are those that I believe evidence suggests to be more than likely to be that alignment; black player names are unknown alignments or do not have enough substantial evidence at this time to go to be aligned either way in my opinion):

Oso

, tracker - likely town, due to tracker results and presentation (see case above)

Humble Poirot

- likely town, if saved by doctor N1. Also, the possible lyncher of Aranneas with Humble as a target also indicates town

q21

- unknown

Aranneas

- likely lyncher due to jay's early post and Aranneas follow up, and lack of participation recently

xvart

, town doctor

diddin

, claimed unconfirmed JK - night action failed, likely scum goon, see case above

vezokpiraka

, confirmed watcher, alignment unconfirmed, possible scum watcher due to setup speculation and balance (see case above)

Sotty7

, claimed roleblocker, likely scum due to responses to claims and behavior

Super Smash Bros. Fan

- unknown

quadz08

, Vanilla Townie, was lynched Day 1.

Tazaro

, Vanilla Townie, was lynched Day 2.

KageLord

, Town Cop, was killed Night 2.

Obviously these reads shouldn't be taken as the bible, but this is my line of thought right now.

xvart.

[Oso]

I'm not adverse to that line of thinking.

Just to make sure I'm reading you right though:

At this point, we both agree that Sotty is scum (based on our own conjectures about how the roles are interacting)?

We both agree that vezo is watcher but that he might be a scum watcher?

I think diddin is town (Pre-Doc RC on your part) but you think he is scum based on your role and how you think all these roles are interacting?

We both seem to agree that Poirot is town and that we also seem to trust each other a bit?

If I got that right, then I don't think you and I are that far off on what we are thinking. Certainly close enough that others in the thread can make some decisions of their own based on what they think of us and our reasoning and the people we have laid out as suspects/non-suspects.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

About Vezok's watch. I didn't find the anomaly in vezok's behaviour when he claimed he watched me. Did you?

To be honest, I did. Sure you're probably a Neighbor, but unlike Oso or diddin, you have no other claimed actions, if Oso/diddin is town, scums would be more likely to go after those two since they have actions that can provide a further threat to the scums during the Night.

Saying it "feels like AtE" is pretty much the definition of wishy-washy.

So wording alone is enough for you to convince yourself that I'm wishy-washy? If that's the case, then I'm not seeing how that's the case.

@SSBF, @Vezok; You think xvart is a doctor too? So what is diddin? There's two protective roles?

I believe others have said this before, but anything can happen in this set-up. From the claimed roles, it looks like we are in a swingy set-up with lots of power roles. From this and xvart's overall town play, I wouldn't be surprised if xvart himself was the doctor like he claims to be.

And if xvart is the doctor, diddin being the town jailkeeper would rely on sotty7's flip even more. If sotty7 is town, then diddin is likely a scum jailkeeper. If sotty7 is scum, then diddin is probably the town jailkeeper. In the former case, diddin should be lynched tomorrow. If the latter, then let him live..

@SSBF: How is Doctor POE, have you read the wiki? There's lots of roles that could appear in a normal game out there.

We know we have a dead cop. We also have the following claims aside from xvart's:
Tracker (Oso), Watcher (vezokpiraka), Jailkeeper (diddin), Roleblocker (Sotty7).

I don't think we have a claimed vigilante, since we've only received one kill and it was on Night 2. Given that we have a claimed Neighbor's group, a Mason group is very unlikely as a result. I don't think we have a voting role here either.

So Doctor it is.

[Humble Poirot]

This game looks like a bad soap opera. Next thing we know Tazaro comes back from the dead to haunt us and Oso has an evil twin brother with psychic powers.

Some things surprise me, some don't but I need to take several steps back and look at everything.

Something intrigues me though. If diddin and sotty are scum together... Then who did they block? Did they block a partner for wifom? (that sounds absurd but hey, I'm out of ideas).

We must remember we don't know the sanity of the cop when we try to think what's balanced.

the reluctance of sotty and diddin to go against each other makes sense.

the following quote comes to mind

Good point. One half-smart alternative I can find is that you were in a scumteam with sotty and nokilled to set the claim up but I think it might be a bit farfetched. Another that looks more likely is that you wanted to out a real doctor.

What I forgot to add, there, was the possibility of another source for the lack of kill, but, early in the game, I had no interest in outing a doctor.

About Vezok's watch. I didn't find the anomaly in vezok's behaviour when he claimed he watched me. Did you?

To be honest, I did. Sure you're probably a Neighbor, but unlike Oso or diddin, you have no other claimed actions, if Oso/diddin is town, scums would be more likely to go after those two since they have actions that can provide a further threat to the scums during the Night.

SSBF
this post is the first after vezok's claim he watched me. At the time, you didn't find his watch scummy. You make no mention of this issue until after Oso had raised it but you say you did see it at the time?

@SSBF, @Vezok; You think xvart is a doctor too? So what is diddin? There's two protective roles?

I believe others have said this before, but anything can happen in this set-up. From the claimed roles, it looks like we are in a swingy set-up with lots of power roles. From this and xvart's overall town play, I wouldn't be surprised if xvart himself was the doctor like he claims to be.

Forgive me, but this sounds like poor reasoning. What would happen if there were 3 doc claims? Anything can happen too? With your apparent philosophy, counter claims would be totally useless for town.

And if xvart is the doctor, diddin being the town jailkeeper would rely on sotty7's flip even more. If sotty7 is town, then diddin is likely a scum jailkeeper. If sotty7 is scum, then diddin is probably the town jailkeeper. In the former case, diddin should be lynched tomorrow. If the latter, then let him live..

So they can't be scum together? Did you read xvart's claim?

There's plenty more roles than vig and mason but I understand if you think this are the likely roles in a mini normal.

by the way, curious thing I found while looking for vezok's day 3 watch claim. Look at his first role claim:

I am a

town

watcher. You know what this role does

I do not intend this to be of any value during the game but if, when the game ends, his alignment is mafia, it will be a funny example of a freudian slip. Have you guys seen many town players claim "I'm town [Role]"?

Humble Poirot

PS: The season finale teaser trailer shows what appears to be Oso + xvart + Poirot scumteam laughing on top of a pile of dead bodies. XD

[xvart]

At this point, we both agree that Sotty is scum (based on our own conjectures about how the roles are interacting)?

Yes. And, I think Sotty's flip will reveal a lot for subsequent days.

We both agree that vezo is watcher but that he might be a scum watcher?

Yes. Vezok has confirmed his watcher ability. Just like I find the likelihood of there being a doctor/jailkeeper on the same team in a 12 person game I do not think that a watcher/tracker would also be on the same team in a 12 person game. Since I have a much, much stronger town read on you that leaves vezok as scum watcher (and considering the watcher/tracker effectiveness in terms of balance I suggested in my last post and the WIFOM speculation that vezok was trying to catch the doctor by targeting Humble). Also, given that Vezok would get his results after night communication is closed he is pretty much forced to answer truthfully since the scum team wouldn't be able to effectively speculate and hypothesize phony results.

I think diddin is town (Pre-Doc RC on your part) but you think he is scum based on your role and how you think all these roles are interacting?

Yes. I think once sotty flips we will have a better idea of what the scum team consists of and can then further speculate on which sides roles might fall on. But, at this point, I'm thinking the setup is likely

tracker/doctor/cop/VTs

vs

watcher/roleblocker/goon

, and that sounds moderately balanced from what we know so far. Who knows, maybe Sotty is fake claiming roleblocker and will flip goon or godfather or something. Then, diddin is obvscum RB partner. They could be trying to fake claim the other one out to score town cred when the other flips.

We both seem to agree that Poirot is town and that we also seem to trust each other a bit?

Yes. I trust my Humble read more than my read on you, and I haven't completely ruled you out as scum and vezok town, but I think that is not very likely due to behavior, general play, etc.

------------

I believe others have said this before, but anything can happen in this set-up. From the claimed roles, it looks like we are in a swingy set-up with lots of power roles. From this and xvart's overall town play, I wouldn't be surprised if xvart himself was the doctor like he claims to be.

I really don't like how SSBF is latched on to this idea that

anything

can happen in this game based on the roles that have been revealed. There is a difference in a swingy game and a game where anything can occur. Based on the roles, I wouldn't even consider it swingy, but the possibility of one faction being overpowered is a possibility. Swingy games imply that one faction could have a strong lead and then the next day be totally behind, and I don't see that as the case in this game. Either the town is way overpowered or some of our claimed PRs are lying about alignment.

And if xvart is the doctor, diddin being the town jailkeeper would rely on sotty7's flip even more. If sotty7 is town, then diddin is likely a scum jailkeeper. If sotty7 is scum, then diddin is probably the town jailkeeper. In the former case, diddin should be lynched tomorrow. If the latter, then let him live..

It's that simple? It doesn't matter if sotty flips a scum PR? Only alignment determines the other alignment?

SSBF is another one of my hesitations because he has been fairly consistently scummy, especially with his interactions with probable scum.

------------

Something intrigues me though. If diddin and sotty are scum together... Then who did they block? Did they block a partner for wifom? (that sounds absurd but hey, I'm out of ideas).

That's the million dollar question. Since Sotty was the last person to claim (outside of me but it seems obvious that I was likely doctor by the general consensus) Sotty could have blocked someone unclaimed and assumed that that person is VT and wouldn't be able to support or deny an action occurred on him. I think since so many PRs have claimed (and that I would be surprised if any additional PRs were in the game, I think it would be safe to have all the unclaimed claim, just in the off chance there is some additional night information. Does anyone disagree?

Also, I'm sure it has happened before but I have never seen a town roleblocker. This makes me wonder that Sotty couldn't claim JK as a fake claim because diddin had already claimed that and then he would get discovered since he didn't counterclaim.

We must remember we don't know the sanity of the cop when we try to think what's balanced.

This is a good point.

I do not intend this to be of any value during the game but if, when the game ends, his alignment is mafia, it will be a funny example of a freudian slip. Have you guys seen many town players claim "I'm town [Role]"?

I actually thought of this at the time, but dismissed it because I once in a game once where someone said "my claim is..." and pushed him because I didn't think that anyone with that actual role would say "my claim is..." as opposed to "I am...". I can't remember for sure but I think that person flipped town.

xvart.

[Oso]

..
That's the million dollar question. Since Sotty was the last person to claim (outside of me but it seems obvious that I was likely doctor by the general consensus) Sotty could have blocked someone unclaimed and assumed that that person is VT and wouldn't be able to support or deny an action occurred on him.

I think since so many PRs have claimed (and that I would be surprised if any additional PRs were in the game, I think it would be safe to have all the unclaimed claim, just in the off chance there is some additional night information. Does anyone disagree?

..

No objection from me. When we had KG, Diddin and KG outed (to varying degrees) Day 2 and with me catching another PR night 2 and vezo doing the same, the momentum towards a mass claim is pretty much there.

The only question in my mind is when to do it. Today before the lynch or tomorrow with one more night of info to go on. I favor today.

[Oso]

EBWOP:

KG, Diddin and KG outed=vezo,Diddin and KG

[xvart]

If we decide to do it, we should definitely do it today as to help use the scum PRs to our advantage. Like I said, I think you should track diddin tonight no matter what happens as that will give us all the information we need on him.

xvart.

[vezokpiraka]

I saw two town roleblockers.
I saw one in normal big mafia 114 and one in a mini normal game on another site.

You said I slipped when I said TOWN watcher.
Have you ever seen scum claim town xxxx?
I sure didn't.
The town is way overpowered.

Let's say sotty and diddin are scum.
We have : watcher , tracker, cop and doc +neighbours on our side. They have 2 roleblockers max.
Let's say one of the tracker/watcher is scum. They have 2 PR and we have 4 at least plus neighbours.

This game should be easy for us to win.