Scummies Invitational (OVER!!!)

[Ojanen]

I like that.

Vollkan, Slicey, Tenchi, KMD posted very little, most of them not at all during the exciting parts of the Kinetic/Incognito race, and if Incognito is scum, that is precisely where I'd be looking, rather than the back-end of the Kinetic wagon as I said before, because I think now only populartajo makes sense as scum with Incog of those three, but it is very blatant. Ugh, Ojanen, you're making me less sure. The amount of prob-townies we get from an Incog-scum flip seems too high for it to be real. But if it is true, we basically win the game.

Yeah, this is pretty much exactly where I'm coming from, too, except that I think there's scum in those four regardless of Incog's flip, especially since they completely coincide with the group of people I don't have a good read on. Lurking or not posting much through that hectic phase is what'd make most intuitive sense. If Incog is your buddy you shut up. If you know he's town being quicklynched you'll worry about appearing on the wagon and the momentum will still probably be there later.
Of course I'm a wimp but playing scum is wimpifying for most people.

relatively interchangeable:
vollkan
kmd
Slicey
Tenchi
...
maybe tajo. maybe incog.
...
maybe maybe imaginality.

[q21]

You all are doing it wrong.

THE FIRST THING we should have done today was to ask Q21 if he is responsible for the Emp lynch.

SO Ill go ahead and ask Q21 if he is responsible for the Emp lynch. Otherwise please lynch immediately because his cases are obv BS.

Yes, I killed Empking.

I've played with Emp-scum and Emp-town. His play here reminded me of Emp-scum more.
His vote onto Kinetic was horrible and was a significant part of why I got off Kinetic.
Kinetic's town flip in conjunction with the shear amount defence Emp was getting from other people made me suspect Empking. Don't bother ask me which of the people arguing with Kinetic is his scumbuddy, I don't know, but I felt that with the volume of it there was likely scum there defending a buddy.

All these were just the clinching points that made me decide between holding onto one of my precious kills a little longer or using it. The biggest reason I was looking at killing Empking in the first place, the reason I knew he was going to be high on my NK list from the very beginning was that I know Empking tends to serve as a smokescreen, getting in the way of proper scumhunting - that point was proved quite abundantly in the way Day 1 unfolded. In the end I figured Emp was probably scum, but even if he wasn't it wouldn't be a completely wasted kill, so I went for it.

As to the nature of the game now, I think you're scummy. Why make comments like "The Incog lynch is entirely dependant of the Kinetic flip" if you were going to continue with the view that Incognito is town seemingly regardless of Kinetic's flip? Is that question BS? I don't think so because if you can't provide a valid reason then it begins to look like you were simply trying very hard to keep Incognito around for another day. Dismissing the point as obv BS rather than explaining the apparent contradiction is also scummy.

At this point though I don't think I'm going to be able to push you're lynch through, certainly not ahead of the other options going round. I think I like the Incognito lynch best right now. His flip is valuable from the perspective of analysing the two competing day one wagons and I think that flip would reflect on you too, so:

Unvote, Vote Incognito

[Hoopla]

Yeah, this is pretty much exactly where I'm coming from, too, except that I think there's scum in those four regardless of Incog's flip, especially since they completely coincide with the group of people I don't have a good read on. Lurking or not posting much through that hectic phase is what'd make most intuitive sense. If Incog is your buddy you shut up. If you know he's town being quicklynched you'll worry about appearing on the wagon and the momentum will still probably be there later.
Of course I'm a wimp but playing scum is wimpifying for most people.

I think you're right. It makes a lot more sense to just lynch from that pool now, than to go for Incognito and then lynch from that pool afterwards anyway. Haha, I can't believe I'm doing this after q21 has just stepped on, but;

Unvote, vote: Slicey

Of those four, I'm favouring Slicey and KMD (slight preference for KMD, but he can be next). Lets power through these next couple of lynches. We've all been talking about it, but now it's time to do it.

[q21]

Why vote Slicey over KMD when you prefer KMD?

[Hoopla]

Why vote Slicey over KMD when you prefer KMD?

Slicey had a vote already. Does it matter what order we lynch them in?

[q21]

No, just wondering. Why do you prefer KMD?

[Hoopla]

No, just wondering. Why do you prefer KMD?

I've come down to that pool of players by way of process of elimination, and KMD is someone I've had my eye on regardless. He's been lurkier than most, and of the times he has posted, he's cited poor, weak reasons for a vollkan vote, and a couple of his reasons for suspecting me were even weaker. Slicey isn't a bad choice either due to his poor activity, and eclipses vollkan and Tenchi as far as '

wanting to kill them

' goes. One is capable of producing well reasoned, logical cases which is very useful if he's town, and the other I have a slight town read on (guess which is which).

[Hoopla]

You should come and help us, q21.

[Ojanen]

not mafia: me, hoopla, myko, q21, ckd on whom I just did a massive 180 and spyrex who I'm the least sure of.
That's 6. It's 7 to lynch. At least a few more of us need to collaborate if we actually want to get multiple lynches in today.
I'd appreciate more of these people stating their preferences out of the block [Slicey, Tenchi, vollkan, kmd]. Right now there's 2 votes on each of Slicey, Tenchi and vollkan instead of a wagon on anyone.
I'll burn some of that towncred of mine here: since I realized I was wrong on ckd I haven't really kicked into gear yet regarding a top suspect and it's the foggy elusive bunch for me. I'm pretty fluid with my vote within wagoning that group. For now.

[Hoopla]

Otherwise, this

ckd collects some micro-non-mafia points for mixing this up with an /in-vitational. I assume scum have nighttalk and mod wrote nighttalkers could talk pre-game. It's somewhat more likely that Scummies invitational would be mentioned passingly than not and scum would be aware of reputations.

is still more valid than myko's case in my mind.
ckd's "myko isn't scumhunting" thing obviously referred to the whole policy lynch line by myko, even though it was exaggeratingly repeated. ckd's been passive but meh.

This tell is even more valuable when you consider CKD's initial confusion post;

2.) Empking (for the record, I asked to not be placed in a game with him, so I am not sure how we ended up in the same game)

I doubt ckd would write this if he were scum with Empking, particularly when confirmations were done via PM. It's almost certain scum would have been able to pregame talk and even if CKD were one of the later ones to confirm, his reaction to finding out Empking was in the game wouldn't have filtered into his survey response, because I remember there was a decent wait (at least 2-3 days) during confirmations.

[curiouskarmadog]

going to try to catch up here tomorrow...

[imaginality]

At least a few more of us need to collaborate if we actually want to get multiple lynches in today.
I'd appreciate more of these people stating their preferences out of the block [Slicey, Tenchi, vollkan, kmd]. Right now there's 2 votes on each of Slicey, Tenchi and vollkan instead of a wagon on anyone.

Okay, I'm happy to help here. Let's get Slicey going.

Unvote
Vote: Slicey

Of the other three, my preference is Tenchi > Kmd > vollkan.

[SpyreX]

I want the slicey lynch through sooner than later.
I'd also REALLY like the incog lynch after looking at a pair of queens and their important words during my weekend absence.

I doubt anyone else has that gamblin itch but, theoretically, we could throw the dice today for everything. I have the rumblings of a plan.

[Hoopla]

I want the slicey lynch through sooner than later.

That seems like a strange thing to say without a vote to go with it.

[vollkan]

Fucking hell. That was seriously a bad lynch.

No it wasnt. Even if Kin is town I needed his flip. The townies that were in his wagon needed that too.

Lynching Incog is stupid regardless of Kin's alignment.

Spyrex is an awesone lynch BTW.

VOTE: SPYREX.

GOGOGOGO SIZE 200 WAGON

VOTE: incognito

Lets get that piece of information for tomorrow. Hoopla, lets see if your theory was right. In case both wagons were on town, you will still lynch more accurately tomorrow (as you don't have to assume anything about the Incognito) . If one proves to be on scum you have a lot of information (scum having to pick between both lynches).

Otherwise, I would support a whole series of lynches tomorrow. There are a few townreads that are quite uncontested: these are valuable. Multiple lynches will protect them for endgame.

No.

Stop being silly. We need the Kinetic flip first.

First, I think Incog softclaimed PR. Let him do (or fake) his work tonight.

Second, making a hasty lynch that depends on the flip of the other wagon will only give erroneus reads on the long term.

We should lynch obvscum Spyrex. God. Please.

Am I reading this right? Because if I am there is a glaring contradiction going on. First post he's saying that regardless of Kinetic's flip an Incog lynch is stupid... second post he seems to be saying that before we decide whether we're lynching Incognito we need Kinetic's flip... which he's just said should have no baring on whether or not we lynch Incog. Says an Incognito lynch doesn't depend on Kinetic's flip, then says it does. Yeah. Contradiction.

Lets spot the contradiction here. You don't want a Incog lynch, as we need the Kinetic flip, but you need a spyrex lynch? Come on, who are you fooling?

The Incog lynch is entirely dependant of the Kinetic flip.

If Kin flips scum would you lynch Incog? Spyrex lynch is not based on the Kinetic flip. Its based on the fact that he is obvscum.

Further, I absolutely HATE that you are claiming a PR for him here. 1. you shouldn't be powerrole hunting. Scum only does 2. If he is a powerrole, he clearly doesn't want to be outed. 3. if he wants everybody to know, he'll claim

Why do I feel am I the only one reading the thread?

Are you saying I am scum, Hoopz?

Yeah.

Am I reading this right?

Lynching Incog today is stupid because we dont have the Kin flip. It entirely dependes on the flip and the information it gives us about the players on the wagons. My position should be clear in the last post. I can understand why you think there is a contradiction there.

"Lynching Incog is stupid regardless of Kin's alignment" means that I think Incog is town and that his lynch is stupid imo.

You did it again. Incog lynch is "entirely dependent" on the Kinetic flip and then you say you think Incog is town, seemingly independent of the Kinetic flip.

Pointed these out at the end of Day 1, but there was no chance I was getting a tajo lynch through then. Now though, its worth the pursuing, I think. His play has felt different to the town-tajo I've played with before and he's had some other minor scumminess, but this to me is the stand out point.

Vote Populartajo

Also, not voting for Spyrex today.

I think you've missed Tajo's point.

Objectively, Incog being scum was logically predicated on the result of the Q21 lynch. Subjectively, however, Tajo was against Incog's lynch regardless.

this isnt a flake move...really it isnt. I just feel like we shouldnt linger on me today anymore than you need to...

unvote, vote CKD.

You say this as though your lynch is inevitable, but that time will be wasted on pursuing it. I can't see any basis upon which you'd think that it was inevitable, so that leads me to wonder why you'd pull such a self-vote. The tone of the rest of your post has elements of AtE, so this worries me.

(Also, have you done something like this before? I had a 'here he goes again' moment in my head, but I can't think of where you've done this before)

Volkan is an special case. He is one of the heavy Kin attackers and they both waste a lot of space in the Emp debate but I cant decide if Volk is indeed defending Emp or attacking him. VOLKAN, can you precise your position (with quotes preferebly) in the Emp department?

In a nutshell, I found Empking mildly scummy but was vehemently against his lynch.

Why I found scummy

Survey, humourous roleplay rather than defence

See above on Tenchi on this point.

CKD is definitely doing some misrepresentation with regards to Myk

Misrepresentations? Quote me two of them.

Any argument can be refuted by a humourous roleplay. Its the last resort of the people that are in the wrong. The facts of the matter is that it doesn't require any tortuous scum-logic. All it requires is that scum want to do something that benefits them with no real lasting disadvantages.

First, it's not actually true that any argument can be refuted by a humourous roleplay. In this case, though, the roleplay got at the heart of the problem with Incog's argument - which is that the notion of a survey as a scumplot requires pretty bizarre thinking from scum. It's obviously true that there is a conceivable scum advantage from the survey, but the pattern of thinking that leads to it is stretched. Whereas, "I want to try a survey as an ice-breaker info tool" (a null tell as far as reasoning goes) is much more intuitively direct. Nobody has provided any reason as to why we should just assume that the more crazy scum reasoning is better.

Me against policy lynch

Empking: More of a distraction in any game I've played. Scum leaves him around if he's town, and if he's scum he uses that meta to stay alive longer. Since we have multiple lynches I feel he should be removed from the game so he doesn't become a distraction as town or slip by as scum. Vote:Empking

This is just stupid. For starters, it's policy lynching somebody based on what they might do; he's assuming Empking wil become a distraction. Second, in this particular game there is very likely a reduced likelihood of Empking's playstyle being distracting, because there aren't newbies to get confused by it.

But if he does end up being scum when we eventually lynch him (because I do think its inevitable that he will be lynched even if its not today) then I'm going to look very hard on you.

Despite the above (ie that a townie could reasonably defend Empking), you are strongly suggesting that should Empking flip scum you would consider that a mark against any opponent of an Empking policy lynch.

You can't have it both ways. If defending Empking is objectively legitimate (and you admit that it is), then it is not a scumtell irrespective of which way Empking ultimately flips.

Its policy lynching based on my experience with this player. All this great defense of Empking makes me start to wonder why. Show me a game where he has been a great benefit to the town. Maybe I've missed something, but I don't remember him being such a good player as to warrant this. I'm going to do some meta checking, be right back.

The question is not whether Empking is a great benefit to the town; it's whether he is likely to be such a detriment to the town that it is better that he be lynched. The difference between the two is that the way you framed it puts the onus on the rest of us to show why Empking should stay, when good policy dictates the burden of proof should fall onto you.

There are other quotes, but I think those establish where I was well enough.

Tenchi needs to be lynched today after that amazing piece of contribution.

The CKD vote?

More generally, and I think a consequence of RL committments, I've lost my bearings in this game. I'm preparing a 0-100 summary of everyone.

[mykonian]

At least a few more of us need to collaborate if we actually want to get multiple lynches in today.
I'd appreciate more of these people stating their preferences out of the block [Slicey, Tenchi, vollkan, kmd]. Right now there's 2 votes on each of Slicey, Tenchi and vollkan instead of a wagon on anyone.

Okay, I'm happy to help here. Let's get Slicey going.

Unvote
Vote: Slicey

Of the other three, my preference is Tenchi > Kmd > vollkan.

Where is my case? If you don't want to post it, you can leave it, but you are going to say something about it.

unvote vote slicey

[q21]

I think you've missed Tajo's point.

Objectively, Incog being scum was logically predicated on the result of the Q21 lynch. Subjectively, however, Tajo was against Incog's lynch regardless.

I think you mean Kinetic lynch, not the q21 lynch, but that's neither here nor there. If what you're saying here is the case then Pop's objective and subjective reasoning contradict each other - this is not in itself scummy. However, he proceeds to cite both of those contradicting viewpoints in order to respond to others' points, which is scummy.

[vollkan]

I think you've missed Tajo's point.

Objectively, Incog being scum was logically predicated on the result of the Q21 lynch. Subjectively, however, Tajo was against Incog's lynch regardless.

I think you mean Kinetic lynch, not the q21 lynch, but that's neither here nor there. If what you're saying here is the case then Pop's objective and subjective reasoning contradict each other - this is not in itself scummy. However, he proceeds to cite both of those contradicting viewpoints in order to respond to others' points, which is scummy.

For reference, I assume what you are referring to are the quotes below:

Lets spot the contradiction here. You don't want a Incog lynch, as we need the Kinetic flip, but you need a spyrex lynch? Come on, who are you fooling?

The Incog lynch is entirely dependant of the Kinetic flip. If Kin flips scum would you lynch Incog? Spyrex lynch is not based on the Kinetic flip. Its based on the fact that he is obvscum.

Am I reading this right?

Lynching Incog today is stupid because we dont have the Kin flip. It entirely dependes on the flip and the information it gives us about the players on the wagons. My position should be clear in the last post. I can understand why you think there is a contradiction there. "Lynching Incog is stupid regardless of Kin's alignment" means that I think Incog is town and that his lynch is stupid imo.

I can't see any basis upon which you can reasonably argue there is contradiction or inconsistency, especially after his second post clarified it.

The first quote states the obvious: that objectively, Incog being scum was predicated on the result of the Kinetic lynch (making it stupid, on the argument that people were making for lynching Incog, not to lynch kinetic first). The first part of the second post just reiterates this, then he goes on to give his personal opinion.

[Mr. Flay]

Votecount

Slicey (4) -- Ojanen, Hoopla, imaginality, mykonian,
SpyreX (3) -- Incognito, Slicey, q21,
curiouskarmadog (2) -- Tenchi, curiouskarmadog,
Tenchi (1) -- SpyreX,
vollkan (1) -- Kmd4390,

Not voting (2) -- populartajo, vollkan

13 alive, 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends on August 27th, 8:00am CDT.

[mykonian]

and again vollkan finds it terribly hard to move his vote. He's scum.

[populartajo]

If you are in charge of the Empking kill and you are not q21, please counterclaim now. Barring no counterclaims, Id say q21 is our first confirmed townie

I want the slicey lynch through sooner than later.

That seems like a strange thing to say without a vote to go with it.

HINT HE IS SCUM.

Oh, joy two wagons once again. Lets do this right THIS TIME.

Unvote Vote: Spyrex.

I really doubt Spyrex and Slicey are scum together so lets just lynch this obvscumbaggery called Spyrex.

[populartajo]

Slicey (4) -- Ojanen, Hoopla, imaginality, mykonian,

I want a good damn reason why you prefer Slicey over Spyrex, fantastic four.

[q21]

The first quote states the obvious: that objectively, Incog being scum was predicated on the result of the Kinetic lynch (making it stupid, on the argument that people were making for lynching Incog, not to lynch kinetic first). The first part of the second post just reiterates this, then he goes on to give his personal opinion.

A point you seem to be missing is that we'd already lynched Kinetic before Tajo made any of those posts.

[populartajo]

I really dont know what to make of the vollkan defense. Its unexpected but still.

q21, Ive been pretty clear about this. We had already lynched Kinetic but we didnt have his flip.

Lynching Incog today is stupid because we dont have the Kin flip. It entirely dependes on the flip and the information it gives us about the players on the wagons. My position should be clear in the last post. I can understand why you think there is a contradiction there. "Lynching Incog is stupid regardless of Kin's alignment" means that I think Incog is town and that his lynch is stupid imo.

Having two lynches that

interconnected one with each other

when we didnt have the Kin flip was stupid. People thought Kin was town for his selfhammer. I didnt. We needed his flip so people that thought Incog was scum could go all in with the lynch. But what if Kin flipped scum. We would have lynched Incog because we assumed something. We didnt even need to rush things because it was day 1. Thats why Incog lynch was dependant of the Kin flip and not a 100% Incogscum situation as some people tried to paint.

Now from my point of view, Lynching Incog is stupid regardless of Kin's alignment, means that I think Incog is town and that his lynch is stupid imo.

Those two things are different. I understand why you think there is a contradiction there but I hope its clear now. You pushing and poshing this dead horse isnt helping what we are talking about now.

[Hoopla]

Tajo, help us lynch Slicey, KMD and maybe vollkan and I'll give you my vote for a SpyreX wagon after. Come on guys, we really need to get on with it before we waste any more time.