Scummies Invitational (OVER!!!)

[q21]

I really dont know what to make of the vollkan defense. Its unexpected but still.

q21, Ive been pretty clear about this. We had already lynched Kinetic but we didnt have his flip.

Lynching Incog today is stupid because we dont have the Kin flip. It entirely dependes on the flip and the information it gives us about the players on the wagons. My position should be clear in the last post. I can understand why you think there is a contradiction there. "Lynching Incog is stupid regardless of Kin's alignment" means that I think Incog is town and that his lynch is stupid imo.

Having two lynches that

interconnected one with each other

when we didnt have the Kin flip was stupid. People thought Kin was town for his selfhammer. I didnt. We needed his flip so people that thought Incog was scum could go all in with the lynch. But what if Kin flipped scum. We would have lynched Incog because we assumed something. We didnt even need to rush things because it was day 1. Thats why Incog lynch was dependant of the Kin flip and not a 100% Incogscum situation as some people tried to paint.

Now from my point of view, Lynching Incog is stupid regardless of Kin's alignment, means that I think Incog is town and that his lynch is stupid imo.

Those two things are different. I understand why you think there is a contradiction there but I hope its clear now. You pushing and poshing this dead horse isnt helping what we are talking about now.

I've been pushing because I wanted this kind of explanation rather than just you saying the point was obv BS. Last question, if your personal opinion was that Incognito was town regardless why turn to the other reasoning to convince people not to lynch him?

[SpyreX]

Good lord I thought I was voting for slicey. Wooo for exhausted posting.

Unvote, Vote: Slicey

The CKD vote?

More generally, and I think a consequence of RL committments, I've lost my bearings in this game. I'm preparing a 0-100 summary of everyone

.

The absence of anything. There is nothing there.

[mykonian]

Tajo, help us lynch Slicey, KMD and maybe vollkan and I'll give you my vote for a SpyreX wagon after. Come on guys, we really need to get on with it before we waste any more time.

second

Tajo, I know you are town, now come on and do something in stead of staying stubborn.

[SpyreX]

If you give me Slicey & Tenchi for sure I'll take the blade. If I get bladed I would like Incog today.

After you see my flip I want Tajo to kick it up. IF Incog is scum I want him lynched, period.

[Ojanen]

Dammit, access problems , will try to solve within a day or two (traveling related as usual)

[Incognito]

I'm back from the Caff-wagon.

I've read over the pages I've missed twice now and pretty much nothing is sinking in. Post should come shortly hopefully.

[Incognito]

I still didn't get much from reading the last few pages but as of right now, I'm thinking we probably need to decide on at least one lynch from the following group of people Today:

vollkan
Slicey
imaginality
populartajo
SpyreX

I currently have my vote on SpyreX, but I'll be looking at Slicey ASAP as well as the others to determine if I agree with one of their wagons more. These names are left-overs from the Kinetic wagon since I think we can expect at least 1 maybe 2 additional scum on it after q21, Empking, Kinetic, and me are removed from it. I removed q21 because I'm having a hard time seeing him as scum given his claim and his claimed kill. If he was a Mafia-aligned vig of some sort, he could have just shot at me during the Night and justified it p easily Today while still keeping a hypo buddy of his alive in Empking. This all assumes we were supposed to have 2 kills last Night though.

Also, with q21, I really can't see him as a Serial Killer either - I'm not saying it's impossible, but I've known Patrick on-site for awhile now, and I think Pat-mod is usually not a fan of having multiple scum groups within a game, and I do know that he was the major brainchild behind this setup.


Onto some responses for stuff...

Incognito's not scum. I wanted to see how he and others responded to this wagon on him. His response feels pretty genuine to me.

I don't get this at all. Considering how quickly votes seemed to be coming onto me at the start of Today, do you really think you would've had time to unvote or something of the sort if the vote totals started to get too high and my response hadn't arrived yet?

2.) Having good feelings about Incog evaporate real quick when its "I'm not claiming, you're all just the scum trying to find PR's (although I'm gonna spin this as not a PR claim promise)" If I felt really cool and decided to iso and you were silly enough to have ANY posts on site between that post and deadline you'd be lynched without conversation.

I don't see why that's scummy. That's common Mafia knowledge. If it wasn't me who was the second-leading wagon, I'd be saying the exact same thing I said there if I knew the person getting votes wasn't or probably wasn't gonna be around at deadline. It's absolutely horrendous play to sudden lynch someone without a claim.

More later...

[Incognito]

Oh one other thing that I wanted to mention that I forgot to include in the above post: I can see where Ojanen might get the "SpyreX vote on Empking right before deadline thing being a town-tell", but I'm leaning towards thinking that's more likely to be a null-tell. If SpyreX is scum, I don't think he would have realistically expected that wagon to suddenly rise off the ground even with the unexplained vote made by Emp on Kinetic - there just wasn't enough time for people to switch, the town was seeming fairly apathetic for most of Day 1, and it would have forced way too many people to eat their words for the wagon to actually become viable. Also, Empking flipped Goon, so he'd be more bus-bait than an Empking-scum PR. If Empking DID flip a scum PR, I would probably put more weight into Spy's switch being a potential town-tell.

[SpyreX]

I still didn't get much from reading the last few pages but as of right now, I'm thinking we probably need to decide on at least one lynch from the following group of people Today:

vollkan
Slicey
imaginality
populartajo
SpyreX

vollkan, Slicey,

Empking

, Incognito, imaginality, populartajo, SpyreX,

Kinetic

Seriously you just came in with "lets lynch someone on the wagon that isn't me" without even having the gumption to flat out say it.

You put slicey on your little list there (which is awesome after yesterday) so why not throw that vote down? The faster we get business done the sooner we can pull our swords out and duel. Real style.

That isn't for now though. Now is for cleaning shop.

I want votes up or reasons not to on Slicey. Then we're going to do that same dance a few more times before we get to serious business.

There will be purging by fire.

[q21]

Oh one other thing that I wanted to mention that I forgot to include in the above post: I can see where Ojanen might get the "SpyreX vote on Empking right before deadline thing being a town-tell", but I'm leaning towards thinking that's more likely to be a null-tell. If SpyreX is scum, I don't think he would have realistically expected that wagon to suddenly rise off the ground even with the unexplained vote made by Emp on Kinetic - there just wasn't enough time for people to switch, the town was seeming fairly apathetic for most of Day 1, and it would have forced way too many people to eat their words for the wagon to actually become viable. Also, Empking flipped Goon, so he'd be more bus-bait than an Empking-scum PR. If Empking DID flip a scum PR, I would probably put more weight into Spy's switch being a potential town-tell.

There is also the fact that he asked me to kill Emp if Kinetic flipped town. As scum he'd know that Kinetic would flip town, so basically that post was a flat out request for me to kill his scumbuddy.

[Ojanen]

So it seems I can't get the password for the wireless here. Sucks, I'll have access problems the whole week but once a day should be possible.

My problem with vollkan: his posts often come from almost exlusively from this viewpoint of what is reasonable. It's impressively reasoned. But it's safe. Look at his contribution today. Intuitively it's hard to see him aiming for max building of information. He's not voting. He's not advocating much. He's shooting down one relatively obvious argument that has little effect in the overall dynamics of the game.

From my own town experience, pursuing and settling my suspicions through this formal logical standpoint of whether people are acting in a reasonable way doesn't win me games. I know he can shout "I hate gut" but it's not really that either. Horribly vaguey put, it's how you discard and process the interactions.

IF SOMEONE DISAGREES OR IS UNDECIDED ON HAVING A BUNCH OF LYNCHES TODAY please speak up now and say why. We need to remove the undebated excuse for playing a passive game or at least advocating another direction right now from from the pool of excuses.

q21 post right above this one seconded.

No time argh.

[curiouskarmadog]

today, getting to this today.

[vollkan]

As promised:

Hoopla:

0-5: As I said, survey was pointless, but not scummy.
6: Defence of q21 is weak and wifomy (Q21 voting Emp is a towntell because scum wouldn't be dumb enough to vote for such an obvious candidate). +1
8-9: Would have liked more information for these votes.
15: says he is doubtful Q21 is scum, which is interesting because:
21: "I'm not totally opposed to q21's lynch, despite it not being one of my first choices", going on to spruik the information value of q21's lynch. This rather neatly joins on to a nearing consensus candidate and points attention to his wagoners whilst also not actually committing to the wagon (still being contrary to earlier position, though). +1
22: Says that q21 is the only practical lynch. I note this only because that saying so much would be sufficient; the previous post where he actually expressed vague agreement was not.
49: I'm confused here. The only attack on Incog here relates to him turning it into a two-horse race, but then Hoopla basically qualifies that entire point. She then goes on to give a purely policy/tactical reason for voting Incog relating to information value. @Hoopla: is there a case in this post against Incog (a case for him being SCUM, not a case for his lynch) that I am missing?

Score: 52

Kmd4390

0: "Incog and q21 are town." "vollkan might be scum"
1: Says Hoopla's survey leads to distraction (unrealistic, easy attack) +1
3: votes me, no explanation
4: "Myko is obvtown"
8: "Tenchi looks town to me."
10: "I may end up voting Hoopla after we lynch Vollkan just so ya know."
11: "I find Hoopla scummy, but would prefer to lynch Vollkan first because he is scummier" This is kind of the icing on the cake of what the previous pure quoting has been getting at. Thus far, despite throwing around labels, Kmd has had absolutely no analysis. Then his justification for lynching me over Hoopla is because, wait for it, I am scummier. "Q21 and CKD are two players who I could see myself voting too though."
12: Now he votes CKD, no explanation
14: Finally gives some explanation. His first point against me is that I was being cautious scum in not answering Hoopla's survey. As I have said in argument, this ignores that I had been clear that I thought the survey was pointless, and relies on reading motivations in to my behaviour without any basis. +1. The attack on my resopnse to his post ISO0 is just bleating. The Hoopla attack is also very weak and, as with mine, relies on attributing a scum motivation (ie that Hoopla was trying to appear town by asking questions). +2. Meta says Emp is town; no explanation.
17: "Not seeing Incog as scum."

Score: 54

SpyreX

15: The attack on Slicey for using the same language as Incog doesn't seem to have any logic to it. And, as I said before, that doesn't make sense from Spyrex. +2
@Spyrex: Yesterday you said that the Slicey case was basically gut? Is that still the case?

Score: 52

TBC....

[mykonian]

I find your summary to be odd, and basically saying nothing. I'm sure it is helpful to you, but you don't calculate in the amount of information you are looking at. Spyrex and Hoopla having the same score, while you said 1 ( ! ) thing about spyrex is a good example. Concentration of tells is important.

Your part about spyrex is odd anyway. Don't set him up as your buddy.

[/bump] Guy's, this is silly. The activity is horrible here. (

mod, could I request a mass-prod?

)

[q21]

I've reviewed the points raised by Hoops and Ojanen in the posts around ~450. I see where there going so I'm gonna lend a hand in that lynch. Also because it'll hopefully help kickstart the game. Since pop has actually made an answer I get to the point I raised I'm no longer as interesting in lynching him/Incog, though I would still like an answer to the last question I put in 475, Tajo.

For now:

Unvote, Vote: Slicey

L-1: Come here and claim.

[imaginality]

Answers to a few things:

I think probably one of myko or Vollkan is scum, and lean slightly more towards myko.

Also

I noticed Empking speak up in myko's defence at one point and I think he's more likely to have done that for a scumbuddy.

Oh My God U Suck.

unvote vote Imaginality

. A it is called buddying. B Vollkans overall play consists out of a single big movement against Kinetic, textbook scumplay. You dismiss the whole game to "lean slightly more towards myko" because of the buddying of Empking.

Note the bolded; your assessment is not correct. I saw you as scummier (well, at that point as less town) than Vollkan in my D1 read, and I do so still, except less sure that Vollkan is town than I was yesterday. And there's something about the way the two of you are interacting that gives me a gut feel it's not a town vs town thing.

Make a case for me, please. I can't properly OMGUS vote you if you don't.

I thought it was mainly D1 you're this touchy...

@Imaginality, just to make your work easier. I've heard that I seem to be touchy/cautious etc. more often. If this is observed, it is usually on day one. Accusations against me don't seem that serious to you, and I seem to overreact on them. The reason mostly is that it hasn't been uncommon that I got lynched day 1 by people all voting me for different little reasons. I'd rather seem a little cautious then let that happen here. (see also my answer at Hoopla's question)

Where is my case? If you don't want to post it, you can leave it, but you are going to say something about it.

I'm going to leave it for now while we focus on getting a few more obvious lynches done today.

---

Incognito's not scum. I wanted to see how he and others responded to this wagon on him. His response feels pretty genuine to me.

I don't get this at all. Considering how quickly votes seemed to be coming onto me at the start of Today, do you really think you would've had time to unvote or something of the sort if the vote totals started to get too high and my response hadn't arrived yet?

Yes. I knew I'd be back online in just a few hours (my vote on you was at 3:30am or so, and I was

---

Little things I couldn't understand for the life of me:

@imaginality

Hoopla, are you voting Tenchi for contradicting himself in the post you quoted?

Hoopla said yes and you never came back to it. Why did you ask this?

I wanted to see if there was anything more to her vote than just that, because I didn't see that contradiction in itself as a scumtell (it looked deliberate, with humorous rather than scummy intent). Her reply was:

Yes, as well as being completely wishy-washy and noncommital. His posts are the definition of filler.

which I was happy with, since I could see those points against him.

[imaginality]

Edit to response to Incognito: ....and I was going to be back online a few hours from then. I didn't think it likely you'd be quick-lynched in that time.

[mykonian]

Answers to a few things:

I think probably one of myko or Vollkan is scum, and lean slightly more towards myko.

Also

I noticed Empking speak up in myko's defence at one point and I think he's more likely to have done that for a scumbuddy.

Oh My God U Suck.

unvote vote Imaginality

. A it is called buddying. B Vollkans overall play consists out of a single big movement against Kinetic, textbook scumplay. You dismiss the whole game to "lean slightly more towards myko" because of the buddying of Empking.

Note the bolded; your assessment is not correct. I saw you as scummier (well, at that point as less town) than Vollkan in my D1 read, and I do so still, except less sure that Vollkan is town than I was yesterday. And there's something about the way the two of you are interacting that gives me a gut feel it's not a town vs town thing.

Make a case for me, please. I can't properly OMGUS vote you if you don't.

I thought it was mainly D1 you're this touchy...

@Imaginality, just to make your work easier. I've heard that I seem to be touchy/cautious etc. more often. If this is observed, it is usually on day one. Accusations against me don't seem that serious to you, and I seem to overreact on them. The reason mostly is that it hasn't been uncommon that I got lynched day 1 by people all voting me for different little reasons. I'd rather seem a little cautious then let that happen here. (see also my answer at Hoopla's question)

Where is my case? If you don't want to post it, you can leave it, but you are going to say something about it.

I'm going to leave it for now while we focus on getting a few more obvious lynches done today.

this has nothing to do with cautiousness. I think you said something, for whatever reason, that you can't prove to be true. With Vollkan's active lurking + completely tunneling on Kinetic, you'd have to twist this game completely to see me more likely as scum. Thank you for proving my point: you can't make such a case without making it obvious that it is a bad case.

[Incognito]

q21 brings up a decent point about SpyreX - I forgot that bit about him wanting to vig Empking on the chance that Kinetic flipped town. I think that probably cancels out the point I brought up about a hypo Spy-scum knowing an Emp-lynch wouldn't be successful; that said, I still wouldn't call it a complete town-tell since I think Spy is more than capable of saying something like that as scum too.

-~-~-~

Reading through Slicey, the biggest things I've noticed about him are as follows:

-~-

in his first post in response to Hoopla's questions, he mentions that he hopes Empking is the first lynch of the Day because he doesn't enjoy playing with him:

2. Don't know enough of the players to really say. I'm hoping for Empking, I don't really enjoy playing with him.

I hadn't noticed this before but the above statement in and of itself contradicts his later comment on Empking that he used to eventually vote Kinetic over:

Kinetic, what I don't understand is, is that you keep talking about how bad Empking is in other games and how much of a liability he is, yet you're not commenting on him in THIS game, which is what actually matters. Empking has made enough posts that you can comment on, whether you think it's townie posts or scummy posts, yet you have said nothing on him in this game.

You're voting him and attacking him for nothing he's done in this game, but his meta and reputation alone.

-~- he mentions that he's always scary inactive during D1 and that he would be getting more involved now that the game was moving along, but I still haven't seen that high level of activity that he promised.

-~- he's consistently mentioned that he opposes my lynch; he didn't specifically mention why at first until he finally did back in his post 394 where he cites some meta-reasoning. Interestingly, in that same post, he compares Kmd's play here to his play in that game, but he didn't mention anything about SpyreX's play here when compared to that game despite the fact that Spy was the person he ended up voting for.

Slicey, why not compare Spy's play here to his play in that Open Game too?

-~-~-~-~-~

Conclusion:

Right now, I'm not opposed to his lynch. He promised additional activity once Day 1 passed, and I haven't seen that higher level of activity. Will do a quick browsing of past games of his to see if this is typical of Slicey-scum asap.

[Incognito]

After quickly browsing through a bunch of Slicey's games, I'm noting that low activity isn't much of a tell for or against Slicey after all. He's been replaced a whole slew of times before as town and has also been able to lurk to victory as scum. Aside from all that, I can't see any glaring differences between his scum and town play either.

Slicey, you need to get in here ASAP to defend yourself against these points and/or claim. I'm ready and willing to hammer at this point.

[curiouskarmadog]

Going to update from myself vote on 430, typing as I go…not really looking forward to this game because of the content of the posts on average. Also, and I appreciate that my wagon all but disappeared, but I have seen scum self vote (usually for flaking reasons) many times. So I don’t think I quite understand why it did. I do have a valid point with wanted to be lynched…moving on.

People pull off my wagon because they feel I am being genuine (shrug) the reason I wanted to be lynched today is because scum is just going to push it later, probably for the same bullshit reasons.

Not understanding OJ’s and spy’s slicey hate.

I like hoopla’s 444 post….

I'd appreciate more of these people stating their preferences out of the block [Slicey, Tenchi, vollkan, kmd]. Right

out of this batch Tenchi, though I am leaning heavily on a Spy and/or imagin lynch,....I would be ok with KMD, but right now...vollkan and slicey I just dont see at this point. that being said, I was wrong about kinetic and Emp, so take my shit with a grain of salt.

At least a few more of us need to collaborate if we actually want to get multiple lynches in today.
I'd appreciate more of these people stating their preferences out of the block [Slicey, Tenchi, vollkan, kmd]. Right now there's 2 votes on each of Slicey, Tenchi and vollkan instead of a wagon on anyone.

Okay, I'm happy to help here. Let's get Slicey going.

Unvote
Vote: Slicey

Of the other three, my preference is Tenchi > Kmd > vollkan.

Have I mentioned I would like to see Imaginality lynched yet?

I want the slicey lynch through sooner than later.
I'd also REALLY like the incog lynch after looking at a pair of queens and their important words during my weekend absence.

I doubt anyone else has that gamblin itch but, theoretically, we could throw the dice today for everything. I have the rumblings of a plan.

Have I mentioned I would like to see Spy lynched yet?

You say this as though your lynch is inevitable, but that time will be wasted on pursuing it. I can't see any basis upon which you'd think that it was inevitable, so that leads me to wonder why you'd pull such a self-vote. The tone of the rest of your post has elements of AtE, so this worries me.

(Also, have you done something like this before? I had a 'here he goes again' moment in my head, but I can't think of where you've done this before)

Yes, yes I have twice (maybe three time) before…and my point was valid there too (both times I was lynched, I think) both for similar reasons…. Better question is have I ever done it as scum. I believe once I self hammered, so my newbie scum partner would quit incriminating himself. If you need to see any of those game…I can attempt to dig them up, but I just recently started tagging my games with links in the wiki, so it might take time.

I dont like the Slicey lynch, mainly because of who is on it...if anyone hammers before we can get claim, that will be telling....

unvote, vote imaginality

this can easily be a Tenchi/Spy vote

also Pop, you still are rubbing me wrong...I read your posts in ISO, and cant put my finger on it. Strange question that I dont think i have ever asked before. Do you have any clue why I am getting scum vibes off you?

[Tenchi]

Tommorrow promise. If I don't post tomorrow kick me out of this site. I've been just busy this weekend! But tommorow's my free day. Sorry to the mod. :'(

[vollkan]

I find your summary to be odd, and basically saying nothing. I'm sure it is helpful to you, but you don't calculate in the amount of information you are looking at. Spyrex and Hoopla having the same score, while you said 1 ( ! ) thing about spyrex is a good example. Concentration of tells is important.

Your part about spyrex is odd anyway. Don't set him up as your buddy.

The point of the summaries is to set out what posts from ISO reading I find scummy/town-y. In Spyrex's case, that post was the only one that I had a confident read from.

And, yes, concentration is something that needs considering. But having said that, I don't see why it has relevance in this case. As a measure of my level of suspicion, I can say confidently that "52 out of 100" accurately reflects my level of suspicion for them.

imaginality

7: Q21 case is legit
11: Swaps to Kinetic from Q21, but had made points earlier, so no evident opportunism
13: votes Incog based on information value and not suspicion
14: QFTs a post supporting multiple lynches on basis of information, and revotes Incog (next day)
15: Unvotes Incog for a genuine resopse, claiming the vote was a test of Incog and others. I give this a +2 because I can't see anything in Incog's response that warrants saying it was genuine, nor does Imagin say anything about what he gleaned from the responses of others. A "test vote" ought to have some sort of strategy behind it, whereas there doesn't seem to be anything of the sort here.

Score: 52

[Hoopla]

If Slicey doesn't get in here after 24 hours, someone just hammer. We need to get through another two lynches.

[Mr. Flay]

After 5 days of not posting and failing to respond to two prods, Slicey is being replaced by Seraphim.