Newbie 994: Stop! In the Name of Sudo! Game Over!

[theperson]

Thanks iamatree and applefarmer. That will make it easier to read.

@DDDP: Why do you think you'll be the only one with a suspicion at deadline? We already have (as a town) suspicions on warriormode, iamatree, and seth.

[Sudo_Nym]

Vote Count:

iamatree L-3: dimaba, theperson
seth L-4: iamatree
warriormode L-4: Debonair Danny DiPietro
Debonair Danny DiPietro L-4: warriormode

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

3) Super unsubtly tries to get me to move my vote off of him onto someone else by suggesting the value in a bandwagon. It's phrased innocuously but the intent is quite clear.

Reason #3- [...]How can you justify that I was trying to make you move your vote. I don't care if you have your vote on me. Especially with these reasons.[...]

So Danny, how do you justify that warriormode was trying to make you move your vote? Can you show us that this was warriormode's true intent and that this argument isn't a fairly basic attempt to interpret an ambiguous post to your advantage? Tone is something you can pick up from text on the internet, but intent is a whole other business.

He suggested I move my vote to needle for a bandwagon, despite the fact that I had made no statements indicating that I thought bandwagonning was a positive activity or that I was suspicious of needle. Since there's no logical reason I can find for him to encourage me to take on an activity I had shown no inclination to partake in, it is far more logical that he was looking to move my vote off of him and a needle bandwagon was merely the excuse given.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Thanks iamatree and applefarmer. That will make it easier to read.

@DDDP: Why do you think you'll be the only one with a suspicion at deadline? We already have (as a town) suspicions on warriormode, iamatree, and seth.

It feels to me as if the seth wagon has already peaked. But my argument wasn't about any specific wagon but the fact that most everyone hears seems rather laid back, there's no one baying for blood and no bandwagon gaining serious traction. And thus I believe my conclusion about the shape of this day to be the likeliest outcome.

[Sudo_Nym]

DavidParker replaces needle, effective immediately.

[DavidParker]

Hey guys, reading thread now and will comment in next 12 hours!

[DavidParker]

Alright, so I've done my quick skim-read of the thread (since it's short)

And will post a few quick thoughts.. I'll have a proper analysis when I get home from work, it might be just outside the 12 hour deadline I promsied, but depends when I get off :p

Two things have stood out to me:

1) I think the pressure on iamatree is somewhat unwarranted. I genuinely get a noob-town vibe from him. See:

Sorry Needle (and other players) but I can't really answer the questions you have posted. This is my first time playing Mafia (at all.. not just online) so I don't really know the difference. I got into this because my friends said It was really fun Sorry I couldn't be any more help..

I feel a newb-scum wouldn't refuse to answer questions. They'd at least semi-copy other people's answers or make up some semi-decent ones. For this, treeboy has jumped onto my town list!

As for my scum list, the one person who has stood out as being scummy is Debonair Danny DePietro (and not because of his stupidly long confusing name, from now on I'm going to call you DDD). I'll get back to this when I can make a proper post later but didn't want to leave you guys hanging. If you have any questions of me regarding my Mafiascum experience or past games etc feel free to ask. I've just picked up 4 games at once, but I'm actually feeling excited as I had a lull in my mafia life with 2-3 games ending and dying in another few, so I'm in something like 6 games atm, which for me is average, but 4 are just starting up so I have high hopes!

Vote: DDD

[theperson]

Hi again, DavidParker!

For this, treeboy has jumped onto my town list!

I'm sure you meant to say treegirl.

Also, I hadn't really noticed before, but you can select your gender by going User Control Panel --> Profile --> Gender. Then there will be less mistakes when it comes to s/he.

But the quote from iamatree, newb scum could just be afraid of messing up. I think there's a pretty good chance that iamatree is newb scum, but also a pretty good chance that she's newb town. My vote's just there because I feel it's best there. I'm not getting scummy vibes from DDDP the way some people are.

[DavidParker]

Alright, so here are some further thoughts. You guys are lucky I'm replacing in, as I don't adopt any crazy meta's when I sub in, I don't want to shake things up when having to have replacements have already done that... Well my first thought was that Needle was scummy as hell for various reasons etc, and was planning on voting him.. THen I realized I replaced him. Oops.

The whole RQS is useless etc, and has no value, especially the questions he used, game mechanics etc, I don't care, all useless and pointless, and would rather just be attacking people for random reasons or making joke votes to get things moving, or joke bandwagons even. Useless useless useless start to the game.

One of my favorite joke scum tells is multi-quoting, however 3 people are guilty of that on page 1.. So that sent me back to square 1. (This is a new DP-Scum-Tell that is in testing phase, and has to await the outcome of another game to be confirmed as good or not)

seth comments how he doesn't like long posts (SORRY FOR THIS ONE SETH ), i don't like long posts either, unless they are necessary and useful. Most just ramble and could have been explained in a couple lines. I'm justifying this long post (will be my only one for a while, as i dont think they are necessary usually), because i just subbed in and want to post all my thoughts so ppl can see where we're at and I am coming from.

treegirl (sorry), lays down the newbie-card. An all too common play in these newbie games which brings me to the all so familiar situation of asking myself... Newb scum or newb town! I find it much trickier than scum-analysing experienced players sometimes :/. I like DDDP's stance on question time. It sucks. Unless it's related to ppl's views on other players etc, but game mechanics/MD is bad question time.

seth suggests a bandwagon to get things moving and votes needle (something I would have done too back then, except I am needle.. oops). This strikes me as the towniest-action that has occurred ALL game so far. Game wasn't rlly going anywhere, RQS failed, and nothing was happened. So seth started a bandwagon, even without a case on needle, the game needed something, and the fact he pushed for a bandwagon gives me a good old solid town read here.

warriormode attacks him for not liking long posts.. Rather silly, but as said, game isn't rlly moving yet, so any vote is a good vote. just have to try differentiate between possible scum votes and townies trying to get things moving. Seth's was definitely town, warrior's i'm not going to say is scum, but it didn't strike me as town.

DDDP comes in and tries to "coach" seth in the ways of bandwagoning (ie: choose the bigger band wagon) this i didn't like. Let him try start a bandwagon on who he wants to.

Now some boring conversation happens, until applefarmer arrives! He goes after the seeminly "easy" target in Seth, however, seth strikes me as a townie, but at the same time an easy target and one that scum would go after for some of his posts, simply because he didnt vote for ppl for strong reasons. It's page 2, you don't have strong reasons. who cares.

Now, end of page 2. THe part i dont like about DDDP is he isn't getting things moving and some proper discussion moving! I feel he should be encouraging people to vote.. less than half of the players have used their vote at this point.. RVS is a great way to get some early weak bandwagons (that will usually fall later) and good discussion and wagon analysis happening. But he has put down a vote then been happy with the way noone else has voted.. Doesn't seem to be working under a town agenda to me!

Page 3.. starts off boring, and hypothetical.. and boring. Until treegirl jumps on the seth wagon. Now this strikes me as a newb-town move. I think it's seth's 3rd vote, and well, this was a pro-town move as the game was still in a bit of a lull, and puttin more pressure on someone is a great way to get out of that lull. Once again, i hate having to differentiate between newb scum/town, but iamatree has given me a gut impression of being very town.

Oh also, page 3. We see some good DDDP buddying up to seth. I don't like it. (JK, i'm doing it here as well). But it just gives me a scummy vibe from him the way he does it. I'll let you decide what my intentions are in calling seth my biggest town-read (debatably second biggest after iamatree).

dimaba posts a willingness to follow's DDDP's wagon as his/her second scum pick.. This strikes me as somewhat scummy.


Now, while I don't approve of warriormode's OMGUS vote, I have to say, I do agree somewhat that DDDP has a very weak case on him. (And the fact dimaba backed it, seemed just as scummy)

@tree

: You are amusing regardless of alignment, and would be happy to keep you around another day just for that (/sarcasm), but who do you find scummiest right now and why? Do you plan on just copying someone else's reasons again or come up with something of your own. Sure, I gave you a newb-town card (for now), but this is me telling you that you can't just bandwagon other people's thoughts/cases, you need to post thoughts of your own, or you'll quickly be turned into newb-scum!

I think DDDP's talk about tone is his way of scum hunting early on. However, I'd like to point out it's relatively inneffective unless you know the people or have played with them before or know something of their meta. Some people can be scummy by nature, or are better at seeming town when scum etc etc.

@dimaba

: what made you agree that warriormode was scummy for such a weak case (in my eyes at least)? And why are you STILL following DDDP and buddying up to him (see post 99). Nobody likes a suck-up!


Also, hi theperson!

[dimaba]

He suggested I move my vote to needle for a bandwagon, despite the fact that I had made no statements indicating that I thought bandwagonning was a positive activity or that I was suspicious of needle. Since there's no logical reason I can find for him to encourage me to take on an activity I had shown no inclination to partake in, it is far more logical that he was looking to move my vote off of him and a needle bandwagon was merely the excuse given.

He didn't suggest that, he asked you a question which you interpreted as having a deeper meaning. What I was asking you was what reason you have to believe that the question was really a suggestion. So, what was it?

@dimaba

: what made you agree that warriormode was scummy for such a weak case (in my eyes at least)? And why are you STILL following DDDP and buddying up to him (see post 99). Nobody likes a suck-up!

I'm sorry, what? Buddying up to him? Especially post 99... I did agree with DDDP that tone can be a tell, and I said that since DDDP is more experienced than anyone else here it isn't unlikely that he's identified a scummy tone. But I also said that giving one two-word example isn't proper evidence, and I also brought to attention the fact that DDDP had yet to answer one of warriormode's questions and mentioned that I don't believe in arguments based on percieved intent. In other words, I mention two things that I believe are fact and bring up three points that DDDP needs to answer to make a warriormode case worth voting for. I was on the fence about wether I should add to that that DDDP was being profoundly arrogant and annoying in post 87, but decided to go after him on content instead. Hardly a case for buddying I'd say.

[seth]

I don't see his reasoning as to why he agreed with DDDP as scummy/buddying. I don't see a FoS on DDDP as completely unwarranted though.

[DavidParker]

duly noted dimaba thanks for the explanation.

also just a reminder it's one week until deadline, it's best we dont wait until the last day or two to be approaching a lynch as that can get messy with claims happening on the last day and ppl switching votes etc. And the town's only power is their lynch, a no-lynch is not an option at this point in the game.

[Beanman]

Good analyses DP(Can I call you that?). I completely agree with alot of your points on DDD, I haven't really particularly liked the fact that he voted seemingly random for Warrior, and then decided to build a case against him. Then says what I interpret as, 'Whoever I choose is gonna get lynched cause it'll be convenient for everyone." Maybe I misinterpreted but it seemed odd to me, and seems like an extremely off way to scumhunt. It also seems really good excuse to set up a possible mislynch.

On the opposite end of it though, I don't exactly have a town read on Warrior either. I'm really not sure which I am gonna vote for, but both seem the most scummy to me at this point, however I don't see a scum pair between the two, so at least one of my reads is probably off.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Alright, so here are some further thoughts. You guys are lucky I'm replacing in, as I don't adopt any crazy meta's when I sub in, I don't want to shake things up when having to have replacements have already done that... Well my first thought was that Needle was scummy as hell for various reasons etc, and was planning on voting him.. THen I realized I replaced him. Oops.

Unvote; Vote: DavidParker

I love it when people make my life easy because they reveal themselves to be scum. The above is a perfect example of a scumtell I've borrowed from my buddy Amished. It's worked very well for him and for me in the few places where I've seen it. The explanation is as follows...

For those of you that don't know what's going on; I've basically come up with a scumtell that if you *criticize* who you replaced in; you're scum. This is a refinement from what I had it (if you read your replacement at all you were scum); but this seems to cover all the instances where I've seen/remember it. If you're town, you really don't have to worry about your predecessor as you know they're town; but if you think that they're scummy; then you're scum. As town, you know that you're not scummy and don't deserve criticism at all.

~

As for attacks leveled against me, they appear to be mostly bellyaching about my playstyle and don't amount to substansive arguments about my role. If someone wants a specific rebuttal to soemthing anyone has said then I'll need a direct quote.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

He suggested I move my vote to needle for a bandwagon, despite the fact that I had made no statements indicating that I thought bandwagonning was a positive activity or that I was suspicious of needle. Since there's no logical reason I can find for him to encourage me to take on an activity I had shown no inclination to partake in, it is far more logical that he was looking to move my vote off of him and a needle bandwagon was merely the excuse given.

He didn't suggest that, he asked you a question which you interpreted as having a deeper meaning. What I was asking you was what reason you have to believe that the question was really a suggestion. So, what was it?

Because he asked "why don't you vote for needle", not "why didn't you vote for needle" the latter is a question seeking an explanation while the former is phrased in such a way to promote a certain action.

[Applefarmer]

Alright, so here are some further thoughts. You guys are lucky I'm replacing in, as I don't adopt any crazy meta's when I sub in, I don't want to shake things up when having to have replacements have already done that... Well my first thought was that Needle was scummy as hell for various reasons etc, and was planning on voting him.. THen I realized I replaced him. Oops.

Unvote; Vote: DavidParker

I love it when people make my life easy because they reveal themselves to be scum. The above is a perfect example of a scumtell I've borrowed from my buddy Amished. It's worked very well for him and for me in the few places where I've seen it. The explanation is as follows...

For those of you that don't know what's going on; I've basically come up with a scumtell that if you *criticize* who you replaced in; you're scum. This is a refinement from what I had it (if you read your replacement at all you were scum); but this seems to cover all the instances where I've seen/remember it. If you're town, you really don't have to worry about your predecessor as you know they're town; but if you think that they're scummy; then you're scum. As town, you know that you're not scummy and don't deserve criticism at all.

~

As for attacks leveled against me, they appear to be mostly bellyaching about my playstyle and don't amount to substansive arguments about my role. If someone wants a specific rebuttal to soemthing anyone has said then I'll need a direct quote.

I had a similar thought when I first read DavidParker's post, but now that it's backed not only by our IC, but by this Amished guy, and supposedly some evidence, I'm going to throw a vote that way as well.

VOTE: DavidParker

[DavidParker]

Thank the mafiascum Gods for such a truly wonderful scum-tell!

I didn't actually read who I replaced in at first but merely read my role that I was pm'd. I read the thread without any note of which player I had subbed for (since I was just told this game needed 1 sub, not for whom) and it wasn't until after skim-reading that I knew who I was subbing in for. By this point I had already made some scum-reads on a few players (namely, DDDP/dimaba/needle), but then realised that one of those was obviously incorrect as it was me!

[Applefarmer]

... and then you call attention to it, which is where the scum-tell comes in. You basically say "Yeah, he looked like scum to me too - btw, he wasn't (ie, I'm not)." Whether or not this is a quality scum-tell is up for debate, but it definitely does apply to you.

Question to others: Does attacking a scum-tell that has just been applied to you (and with no argument) come off as scummy? (See: DavidParker's latest post).

[DavidParker]

anything can be a scum-tell, just like I said, i've used making a long-winded post with multi-quotes that doesn't really help town at all strikes me as something scummy to do early on.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

... and then you call attention to it, which is where the scum-tell comes in. You basically say "Yeah, he looked like scum to me too - btw, he wasn't (ie, I'm not)." Whether or not this is a quality scum-tell is up for debate, but it definitely does apply to you.

Question to others: Does attacking a scum-tell that has just been applied to you (and with no argument) come off as scummy? (See: DavidParker's latest post).

Not really, he has an equally vested interest in removing suspicion placed upon him whether town or scum and the quality (or lack thereof) of his argument is unlikely to be driven that much by his alignment.

[dimaba]

Because he asked "why don't you vote for needle", not "why didn't you vote for needle" the latter is a question seeking an explanation while the former is phrased in such a way to promote a certain action.

I disagree, but since my question was what convinced you that he was suggesting and not asking, I'll have to take that as an answer.

That leaves another question I asked you and which you have ignored:

So, Danny, can you identify other parts of warriormode's posts that have this scummy tone?

Would you mind answering that still?

Question to others: Does attacking a scum-tell that has just been applied to you (and with no argument) come off as scummy? (See: DavidParker's latest post).

No, both scum and town would do so.

I had a similar thought when I first read DavidParker's post, but now that it's backed not only by our IC, but by this Amished guy, and supposedly some evidence, I'm going to throw a vote that way as well.

I have two problems with that:
1) Why didn't you express that thought when you had it?
2) As you say, the scumtell is backed up by "this Amished guy and supposedly some evidence". Why did you not look up this Amished guy and the supposed evidence before immediately finding it credible?

Note: in all my criticism I am not denying that this scumtell might well be genuine, but following it so blindly without proper own research seems stupid. (Read viewtopic.php?p=2067031#p2067031 for the source of DDDP's quote.)

@DDDP I can see several specific arguments in DavidParker's post that you haven't bothered to respond to. If you believe all there is to his suspicion of you is a dislike of you playing style, you clearly haven't read his post very well. This, added to the fact that so far you have only responded to one of the two questions I asked you means that instead of asking us to do your work for you (presenting you with direct quotes) I suggest you take a bit more time to READ THE THREAD FOR CONTENT. Why did I emphasise that? This is why:

This means that warriormode is NOT reading the thread for content which suggests that in fact he's not looking for scum, instead just making arguments: a function of scum not town.

Hypocritical much?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Because he asked "why don't you vote for needle", not "why didn't you vote for needle" the latter is a question seeking an explanation while the former is phrased in such a way to promote a certain action.

I disagree, but since my question was what convinced you that he was suggesting and not asking, I'll have to take that as an answer.

If I "ask" you "Why don't you go jump in a lake?" I'm not really asking a question I'm telling you off. If I "asked" you "Do you still beat your wife?" I'm not looking for one answer or another but instead to tar your reputation. Don't get confused by a rhetorical device just because it features a question mark at the end.

That leaves another question I asked you and which you have ignored:

So, Danny, can you identify other parts of warriormode's posts that have this scummy tone?

Would you mind answering that still?

I would suggest the mild smiley face abuse from him can be a scumtell as it allows one to make damaging or aggressive statements while still trying to maintain a "still friends" perspective and thus drawing less criticism or blowback in the process. I've seen that one be both true and false so I don't put a large amount of stock in it. Other than that his tone has been mostly neutral.

@DDDP I can see several specific arguments in DavidParker's post that you haven't bothered to respond to. If you believe all there is to his suspicion of you is a dislike of you playing style, you clearly haven't read his post very well. This, added to the fact that so far you have only responded to one of the two questions I asked you means that instead of asking us to do your work for you (presenting you with direct quotes) I suggest you take a bit more time to READ THE THREAD FOR CONTENT. Why did I emphasise that? This is why:

This means that warriormode is NOT reading the thread for content which suggests that in fact he's not looking for scum, instead just making arguments: a function of scum not town.

Hypocritical much?

Not in the slightest, I believe my summation of his arguments is relatively correct. If you or he believe it to be incorrect in some case then bring the issue forward and I'll willingly discuss the specifics. I read the thread for content, addressed the insubstantial criticisms I saw and opened the floor for rebuttal. Warriormode on the conversely made arguments based on incorrect facts when the truth was readily available to him. I guess you could say my response was lazy, but its not factually wrong which are two different kettles of fish.

[Applefarmer]

I had a similar thought when I first read DavidParker's post, but now that it's backed not only by our IC, but by this Amished guy, and supposedly some evidence, I'm going to throw a vote that way as well.

I have two problems with that:
1) Why didn't you express that thought when you had it?
2) As you say, the scumtell is backed up by "this Amished guy and supposedly some evidence". Why did you not look up this Amished guy and the supposed evidence before immediately finding it credible?

Note: in all my criticism I am not denying that this scumtell might well be genuine, but following it so blindly without proper own research seems stupid. (Read viewtopic.php?p=2067031#p2067031 for the source of DDDP's quote.)

As for the research, I didn't even think to or know how to go about looking. Glancing at that topic, it looks like it'll take more time than I have at the moment to go through all of that to find what you are wanting me to look for. Knowing that a few other people like this tell is good enough for me right now. I wouldn't say I was following it blindly since I already had an (unspoken) gut reaction to DavidParker's post.

Also, I'm not fully committed to this lynch anyways, as DDD is actually one of my suspects at the moment as well. I figure I might be able to learn something from both of them with that vote. (That is, via DavidParker's reaction when the votes start piling up and DDD's response to having his tell gain some support. ) I'm still experimenting with how I want to play and what can be good tells.

Throwing around votes to see how people respond is an appropriate way to scum hunt... right?

[DavidParker]

I think applefarmer's dealing with this situation is fairly pro-town, DDDP, on the other hand, attacking the person who called him scummy, with an OMGUS vote justified by some weak scum-tell that I've never even heard of, nor do I believe has much credibility seems scummy to me. It seems like his way of avoiding doing any scum hunting; find something that can be a scum-tell and attack the person for it, without looking at the intention/content of the rest of their post.

[dimaba]

Throwing around votes to see how people respond is an appropriate way to scum hunt... right?

True. Also, fair enough on the rest of your post, it sounds genuine to me.

Oh and one other thing, sorry for saying that "following it so blindly seems stupid". I was slightly annoyed from something unrelated to mafia and I guess it shone through. I should've put that in slightly friendlier terms.

If I "ask" you "Why don't you go jump in a lake?" I'm not really asking a question I'm telling you off. If I "asked" you "Do you still beat your wife?" I'm not looking for one answer or another but instead to tar your reputation. Don't get confused by a rhetorical device just because it features a question mark at the end.

I understand the rhetorics involed and yet I still disagree. There's a difference between your examples and the sentence used by warriormode. Warriormode used a two-part phrase: "If ..., then why...". This structure is used to signal a percieved contradiction, regardless of wether the person using it is personally affected by the answer. Had he just said "why don't you go vote for needle" things would have been different.

Compare:
Suggestion - Why don't you become a vegan?
Signalled contradiction - If you're a vegan, then why do you have your fridge filled with meat?

The signalled contradiction could be used by anyone who opens that fridge and is surprised at seeing meat, regardless of wether that person thinks the meat should be removed.

Not in the slightest, I believe my summation of his arguments is relatively correct. If you or he believe it to be incorrect in some case then bring the issue forward and I'll willingly discuss the specifics.

Here's what I think is the most important part of David's post that you need to address:

Now, end of page 2. THe part i dont like about DDDP is he isn't getting things moving and some proper discussion moving! I feel he should be encouraging people to vote.. less than half of the players have used their vote at this point.. RVS is a great way to get some early weak bandwagons (that will usually fall later) and good discussion and wagon analysis happening. But he has put down a vote then been happy with the way noone else has voted.. Doesn't seem to be working under a town agenda to me!

This is certainly not merely bellyaching about your playing style, it is about wether the most experienced player around is trying to help the town forward or not and about wether that is possible under a town agenda.
I'll leave it up to David to highlight anything else in his post that he wants answers to.
I will also count the question I asked you about warriormode's tone as unrelated to your playing style, as it applied directly to the strength of your case against warriormode.

-unrelated- Where has warriormode gone off to? It's been over 3 days since his last reply?