Civilization Mafia - Town Wins!

[inHimshallibe]

And yes, I have my eye on how eager Raj is to agree with everything I've said here.

IMO, this is just raj being raj.

[rajrhcpfreak]

i thought after allthe games ive been in with Vesuvan, he would have figured it out by now.

raj=town
raj=gets bored easily
raj=doesnt like extreamly long days
raj=gets killed
raj=role is revealed as pro town

[Vesuvan]

And yes, I have my eye on how eager Raj is to agree with everything I've said here.

IMO, this is just raj being raj.

Well, you may note a lack of FOS on that. While it is quite common to his playstyle, it doesn't mean I'm not going to take note of it.

[EmpTyger]

Still rather busy, which makes me concerned by those lurking. I don’t have time to count through the thread/board, but considering how much I contributed with a ridiculously busy week, I’m leery of those doing even less.


Puzzle:
A few things not already mentioned:

1. The question about who cannot build units : it is made clear in post #3 that all townies can build units. Had anyone come out saying the contrary, he would have been scum paying little attention.

How could this question harm the town ?

<snip>

The point is not that your question is harmful. It’s that it’s a question that a genuine townsperson doesn’t really seem to have much point in asking. I might have been more inclined to buy the explanation of it being a trap if it weren’t for the fact that it was a correction of a question in [13]. Especially with my setting a trap of my own in my first post; you’re behavior just doesn’t seem to fit.

2. Main game / extension mass claim :
What is the importance of giving this info to the mafia ? What would they do with it ? If we are all from the main game, they are stuffed, so they have to claim extensions anyway. Having people claim main game would help clearing them partially at least, for

0 cost as the Mafia's play is not influenced / improved by revealing this

.<snip>

UM!? How do you know that main game only would imply this? Because that’s only true if there are exactly 16 townspeople- and your answer seems to imply that you are *certain* that this is true. This alone makes me want to vote you, since the best explanation for your behavior would seem to be that you are in a 4 person mafia group.

As for answering your actual response: if we do not massclaim today, then giving this information would help the mafia better coordinate false claims tonight.

5. Suggesting setting up a defined order (originally proposed by VisMaior in post 74) was leaped on quite quickly by Puzzle, and he carries it throughout. However, after being so strongly in support of this, he points out how easily this strategy can fail in post 88, yet still supports the idea completely!
And what is the alternative ?

Why do you omit to mention the other options and the reasons why I reject them ?

The strategy has weaknesses but it remains the best available, in my humble opinion.

What alternative do you suggest and why ?

8. My reason for wanting to lynch Swinkee is available now : I was certain he was scum in 8-bit (on MTGS) and have been outraged that the town refused obstinatedly to lynch him. Simple reprisal (

*scribbles Vesuvan's name on a piece of paper*

). <snip>

Frankly, this sounds like a preplanned alibi in case Swinkee was lynched as an innocent. Moreover, it reminds me of Thok’s accusing me by appealing to N128.


Vesuvan:
The problem I have with relying on “tells” is that, as a matter of principle, they can be the result of a misplaying innocent as much as a discovered guilty. (Although admittedly the convergence of multiple tells and the relative strength would be an indication otherwise.) But when I have an alternative method bearing a result- behavior which would not be done by an innocent- I see no reason to follow the latter course short-term. Which is not to imply that I am not strongly tempted to switch to Puzzle.

And honestly, I’m a little curious as to why you’re dismissive of my allegations against Thok. I’d also still like a response to my last question in [249]...


VisMaior:
Your support of Puzzle in [261] seems to parallel [7], and something about it just jumps out at me. Nothing which would be suspicious yet, but I could easily see you partnered with Puzzle were he to be mafia.


rajrhcpfreak:
Doctors are inefficient. Think of it this way: with everything else equal (ie: chance of protection is the same as of investigation), the doctor has to correctly pick the mafia target, but a cop only has to pick one of the mafia members. Since it’s quite unlikely that the mafia has more kills/night than members, the latter is easier than the former. The only advantage I could see to doctors is to make the announcing of innocent investigation results more secure. But I think additional investigative units would achieve a better result, though I haven’t had time to do the math yet.

Arguably roleblockers might be useful for the town, to counter any roleblockers that might be used against us. But (a) we have no definite proof yet that antitowns have access to roleblockers (though I personally would think it likely) and (b) there’s more of risk, since targeting a townsperson is counterproductive.

Vigilantes, for the record, seem to be equivalent theoretically to doctors- they buy the town time- but more riskier (if incorrect, a townsperson is lost) in exchange for the better chance of hitting the target (need to hit mafia instead of hitting target of mafia).

In any event, unique units void the “everything being equal” assumption.

[Vesuvan]

Vesuvan:
The problem I have with relying on “tells” is that, as a matter of principle, they can be the result of a misplaying innocent as much as a discovered guilty. (Although admittedly the convergence of multiple tells and the relative strength would be an indication otherwise.) But when I have an alternative method bearing a result- behavior which would not be done by an innocent- I see no reason to follow the latter course short-term. Which is not to imply that I am not strongly tempted to switch to Puzzle.

I use "tells" as a method to find indicators of someone being scum, and look deeper from there. When I see a convergence of tells that does not match a player's playstyle (I've played with Puzzle before and watched 2 of his games on MTGS so I know his playstyle fairly well), it gets my vote.

[qute]And honestly, I’m a little curious as to why you’re dismissive of my allegations against Thok.[/quote]

To put it simply, I didn't see it. Thok tends to put a lot of ideas out in the open when he's playing as town (this ended up getting me lynched when we were both town in a mini-game). I didn't see anything too noteworthy on the first read-through, and I wasn't looking at him as my primary focus on the re-read. If you can highlight your main concerns (i.e. the things you feel he should be lynched over, rather than "supporting points"), I'll look a bit more closely.

I’d also still like a response to my last question in [249]...

On what I mis-read in regards to Astro? A couple of his posts were very much mitigated by an earlier post by VisMaior. What looked scummy on the first read-through was perfectly reasonable on re-read.

[Puzzle]

Puzzle, I'm not going to have time to answer all the points in that really long post until tomorrow, but if you stop using straw-man arguments, you're going to look at lot less scummy (and attract a lot fewer really long posts from people like me).

In summary, the two main points:

- Building cops is a good idea, but pre-planning investigations is not. Your straw-man position on this argument is that I'm arguing against building cops, which I'm not (unless a civilization's unique unit was a cop/doc or something)

How should I understand this (your #243) :

His response to valid questions being raised?

Puzzle - you've made that list under the assumption that everyone built a cop unit, correct? What about those that chose another unit to build, or those that advanced? Things to consider, these are.

Well, they can simply build cops tonight without saying anything yet. Then, tomorrow, they can just say they were just building, which means unable to give a result, and the problem will have disappeared for the following night for which everyone will have cops.

MORE directing the town to play into the mafia's hands!
(strong scum tell)

As for the pre-planned investigations, it allows us to make sure everyone is checked and avoid "wasting" investigations that could be piled onto the same people. However, if you can show me how taking this risk is better than letting the mafia know who investigates who, I'm all ears.

- All townies being equal is clearly disproven by the existence of unique units. Your straw-man position on me pointing out that not all townies are equal is to point out that all townies have the same basic units, despite me explaining that my reasoning is based on the existence of unique units.

I have explained why I consider Unique Units to be poor strategy, because of the basic problem with evolving : each night spent evolving is one night less spent investigating. If you can guarantee me that we can get a x/x/5 unit within 3 nights, I may restart the mathematical analysis but :
- I feel that it would take quite a bit longer, taking steps forced evolving through compromised stats (going through 0/0/2 to 0/0/3 to 0/0/4 to 0/0/5 and then build a unit would be optimal but would take time and we may be forced to go 0/0/2 to 0/1/2 to 0/1/3 to 1/1/3 to 1/1/4 to 1/2/4 to 1/2/5 and then unit for instance, which would ruin any hope to reach a full-cop status in time to use the ability).
- I'm far from sure a x/x/5 unit would be available to everyone (idem).
- even for those who can make x/x/5 in 3-4 nights, I have yet to be convinced that it would give better results at the end, because of the time spent not inspecting in between + the risk of being killed. I gave maths explaining my reasoning on a day 3 turn on my first post (#4). That may justify a re-run, though.
This is why I consider Unique Units a lure rather than a good play. Therefore, their presence is a non-issue to me.

There are also a number of weak tells in regards to you, which you respond to by claiming that "logic + analysis of reasonings and motivations > tells". However, analysis of reasonings and motivations are the basis of "tells". I'm simply quoting the end-conclusion, not each step taken to get there.

And yes, I have my eye on how eager Raj is to agree with everything I've said here.

You may also want to see how quickly others joined too. You generated a one-page busy wagon : are you sure your case is that good / obvious / clear-cut ?

[Mr. Flay]

I would comment more if there had been more new information, but right now I haven't seen anything to make me thing Puzzle is not our best D1 lynch. MUCH more information will be available tomorrow.

[Thok]

Puzzle's most recent post convinces me to

unvote, vote Puzzle

. Partially the fact that he ignored my previous comment about him, and partially since it feels like his most recent comments about unit development are an attempt to change discussion. If Puzzle really thought that nondirect advancement of unit was an issue, why didn't he bring it up earlier?

[VisMaior]

Can we have a votecount please?

[HezLucky]

Unvote, Vote: Puzzle

Your logic is garbage. Simply put, you are ignoring unique units for a VERY bad reason. You are assuming far more than you should, in an attempt to make your logic seem valid.

Simply put, if you actually WERE town and HAD upgraded, you would know that you don't receive your results until the next night begins.

[d_rouge]

I don't see anything particularly scummy about Puzzle. Vesuvan seems to be trying a bit too hard to find reasons to attack him, but he sounds quite pro-town to me too.
I guess scum are just waiting for an opportunity to jump on a discussion between two pro-town players and by that I mean that in my opinion some of the players that jumped on Puzzle's bandwagon following Vesuvan are scum.

[EmpTyger]

Puzzle:
I’ve been burned before by doing this, but you’ve convinced me that you’re more suspicious than Thok. Congratulations- this was no easy feat.

Unvote: Thok

. Start by not *completely* ignoring my [278]. (which incidentally accidentally contained point 5 requoted). I'm not ready to replace my vote just yet, however...


Vesuvan:
I understand that the points you initially thought indicated Astronaut was guilty are invalid. Nevertheless, I still would wish to know them specifically.

As for Thok, aside from the responses to [117], these are restatements of what I’ve already said.

<snip>You were strongly against no-lynching without any analysis (with what Puzzle called “blind opposition”) when I was advocating it was in the town’s best interest. But when VizM showed it wasn’t, you continued to defend that idea.

You accused me of “flooding with numbers” when you defended VizM’s numbers, again without any analysis, in [67]. Yet not only were my revised numbers correct and VizM’s wrong, but you were portraying the act of analysis as inherently suspicious.

Thok’s only defense was “laziness” in [102], which doesn’t explain his behavior at all- especially the timing of his switch in advocacy.

The vague instructions to refer to N128 seem to be baseless attempts to focus suspicion onto me for actions in another game. Because I’m not sure how else to interpret your “logic”, since I do not genuinely believe you believe yourself. I mean, you’re basically saying that since I would act as a protown when I’m guilty, therefore if I act protown I’m suspicious. Likewise the reference to Hospital mafia, which I still don’t see any point to have mentioned.<snip>

The reference to N128 has not been clarified, although he has elaborated about the Hospital mafia.

And as for that random FoS in my first post, it was intended as 98% humor, but with the realization that if you were guilty, you might overreact. And I don’t see how you’d be reacting the way you did if you were innocent.<snip>

and

<snip>If you didn't want me to jump on you for a random FOS, perhaps you should have included a smiley or a [/sarcasm] comment? It seemed extremely weird, especially coming in a post where you specifically tried to kill off all discussion of suspicions, except for a no lynch strategy.

Oh, I was quite interested in whether you would jump on me or not. I believe you saw an excuse to begin focusing suspicion onto me and ran with it.
Let me put this another way. Let’s say I “random vote: Thok”ed. Would that have excused your “jumping on me”? Moreover, you were in Mafia 128. You immediately recognized my reference. And you’ve been in enough other games with me to be aware of my style. Yet nevertheless you made [21]- and I cannot see any way you would make that post as an innocent.

If you will, a convergence that does not match a player’s playstyle. I specifically chose Thok to random FOS because of our prior games (especially N128). I realized that there were a number of ways he might have reacted to it; most would be ambiguous as to his alignment, but a few responses would make sense only if he were innocent.

<snip>Finally, I've said this before, but I'm not that useful of a day 1 player, especially protown. I need information to catch people, and right now there isn't that much to go on.

I played with you in the Poker mini. I *know* you are more than capable of analyzing and exploring unusual mechanics and setups on Day 1.

A lie. His rebuttal, which I hadn’t yet replied to, was

<snip>I'll point out that I was scum there, which means I had a decent amount of information to start the game, more so than I do now.<snip>

Which is at best misleading and at worst an outright lie. In fact, one of the postgame critiques I made was that the mafia did *not* have the advantage of information it traditionally has [M188.280].
And one doesn’t need to go beyond this thread to find him behaving thusly in this game:

EmpTyger: What about wonders? What about barbarians developing stuff (they almost certainly will have a faster tech tree than us, or get better units than us at each stage). What about a possible time limit? I can imagine no-lynch + building units being disasterous if we're not careful.

I'm also metagaming a little-I was in Sinister Overlord's last game, which got broken fairly easily. I'm assuming that he's spent more time polishing up this game.

Finally, fundamentally all protown players are roughly the same as far as I can tell. Discussing suspicions only hurts when it reveals power roles, but as far as I can tell, everybody and nobody is a power role. (That is, everybody has powers, but nobody is that much more valuable than anybody).

No-lynch might be the right play for today, but I still think discussion is useful.

Keeping my vote on for now.

EmpTyger, my bandwagon has taken way too long to develop, so either I'm scum and my partners are trying to avoid voting me or our scum consists of some hard-core lurkers. Since I know I'm innocent (I haven't gotten any support from anybody), I'm going to spend some time looking for lurkers. Let's try

unvote, vote swinkee FOS MOS, coporate claw

, with possibly some others to be added to the lurker list.<snip>

As hinted in [128], something about this bothered me:
What conclusion could Thok be trying to draw? He himself is implicitly admitting that he’s acted suspicious enough to be voted, even though he otherwise is denying my accusations as baseless. In fact, he *unvotes* me, all but conceding that I’m correct to be suspecting him; in fact, in [161] he considers me one of the best candidates to edit an investigatory list! His line of reasoning makes no sense- if hypothetically my accusations were baseless, then wouldn’t that be the best explanation for why Thok wasn’t receiving votes? So if they’re correct, then, well, doesn’t that make Thok scum? So why make ?

unless it’s a disguised warning to his fellow mafia

. And read that way, the line “I’m scum and my partners...” jumps out. In fact, given that he in [136] attacked inhim for following this logic, it makes even less sense.
I didn’t mention anything at the time because I was wanting to see reactions.

Not that more evidence is needed, but Thok is the only one who has rushed to attack Puzzle or Astronaut without any elaboration from Vesuvan<snip>

This I admitted is circumstantial; an innocent might also have behaved this way. But compounded with the other evidence against him, my suspicions are only solidified.


HezL:

Unvote, Vote: Puzzle

Your logic is garbage. Simply put, you are ignoring unique units for a VERY bad reason. You are assuming far more than you should, in an attempt to make your logic seem valid.

Simply put, if you actually WERE town and HAD upgraded, you would know that you don't receive your results until the next night begins.

What?! We’ve had *1* night so far. How do you possibly know what will happen at the beginning of a following night???

d_rouge:

I guess scum are just waiting for an opportunity to jump on a discussion between two pro-town players and by that I mean that in my opinion some of the players that jumped on Puzzle's bandwagon following Vesuvan are scum.

Interestingly, this did not appear to be happening with my accusations of Thok. How are you interpreting this?

[Vesuvan]

Vesuvan:
I understand that the points you initially thought indicated Astronaut was guilty are invalid. Nevertheless, I still would wish to know them specifically.

As is often the case in a mafia game, there are some things better left unsaid whether because they're irrelevant or because they involve giving away information that is better to be left obscure.

Sorry if that sounds evasive.

As for Thok, aside from the responses to [117], these are restatements of what I’ve already said.

<snip>You were strongly against no-lynching without any analysis (with what Puzzle called “blind opposition”) when I was advocating it was in the town’s best interest. But when VizM showed it wasn’t, you continued to defend that idea.

You accused me of “flooding with numbers” when you defended VizM’s numbers, again without any analysis, in [67]. Yet not only were my revised numbers correct and VizM’s wrong, but you were portraying the act of analysis as inherently suspicious.

Thok’s only defense was “laziness” in [102], which doesn’t explain his behavior at all- especially the timing of his switch in advocacy.

Yep, flipping between opposing no lynch and supporting it is suspicious, but not all that strong an indicator. People do change their minds. I'd consider this a fair reason to look more closely at someone, but not to lynch someone in the absence of a deadline or something more tangible.

The laziness side of things is quite believable. While Vis was going through complex maths, this wouldn't be the first time I've seen someone react badly to your method of posting [post] references en-masse. When combined with maths, it makes your posts kind of difficult to read unless you have plenty of time and 2 windows open - one on your post and the other with the entire thread for review purposes.

Actually, given that this was a contributing factor to your lynch in the last game I played with you in, that point raises my eyebrow toward you moreso than toward Thok.

The vague instructions to refer to N128 seem to be baseless attempts to focus suspicion onto me for actions in another game. Because I’m not sure how else to interpret your “logic”, since I do not genuinely believe you believe yourself. I mean, you’re basically saying that since I would act as a protown when I’m guilty, therefore if I act protown I’m suspicious. Likewise the reference to Hospital mafia, which I still don’t see any point to have mentioned.<snip>

The reference to N128 has not been clarified, although he has elaborated about the Hospital mafia.

That actually sounded to me like you were intentionally twisting his words. I wouldn't have answered that point either.

However, the fact he has played with you before does make the "drowning him with numbers" comment a fair bit fishier, though I'd need to check back on how that was phrased (i.e. as an attack or as a comment of frustration)

And as for that random FoS in my first post, it was intended as 98% humor, but with the realization that if you were guilty, you might overreact. And I don’t see how you’d be reacting the way you did if you were innocent.<snip>

and

<snip>If you didn't want me to jump on you for a random FOS, perhaps you should have included a smiley or a [/sarcasm] comment? It seemed extremely weird, especially coming in a post where you specifically tried to kill off all discussion of suspicions, except for a no lynch strategy.

Oh, I was quite interested in whether you would jump on me or not. I believe you saw an excuse to begin focusing suspicion onto me and ran with it.
Let me put this another way. Let’s say I “random vote: Thok”ed. Would that have excused your “jumping on me”? Moreover, you were in Mafia 128. You immediately recognized my reference. And you’ve been in enough other games with me to be aware of my style. Yet nevertheless you made [21]- and I cannot see any way you would make that post as an innocent.

His jumping on the FOS was scummy. However, he does have a point with your post trying to kill off all discussion other than a no-lynch strategy (It's a large part of what got you my FOS). I think this is something to make him worth looking at more closely, but not "something he should be lynched over rather than 'supporting evidence'".

If you will, a convergence that does not match a player’s playstyle. I specifically chose Thok to random FOS because of our prior games (especially N128). I realized that there were a number of ways he might have reacted to it; most would be ambiguous as to his alignment, but a few responses would make sense only if he were innocent.

Agreed, and (working from memory as I'm trying to type this quicly), his response looked ambiguous.

<snip>Finally, I've said this before, but I'm not that useful of a day 1 player, especially protown. I need information to catch people, and right now there isn't that much to go on.

I played with you in the Poker mini. I *know* you are more than capable of analyzing and exploring unusual mechanics and setups on Day 1.

A lie.

Are you saying that you lied about him being able to analyze unusual setups as of day 1? Because I recall him being able to do so in a mini game I played with him in previously. Sure, we were both on the wrong track, but he was able to contribute to analysis of a rather unusual situation of 3 mason groups in a mini-game.

While I haven't read up on the Poker mini, that doesn't exactly make me more comfortable in following your lead there.

His rebuttal, which I hadn’t yet replied to, was

<snip>I'll point out that I was scum there, which means I had a decent amount of information to start the game, more so than I do now.<snip>

Which is at best misleading and at worst an outright lie. In fact, one of the postgame critiques I made was that the mafia did *not* have the advantage of information it traditionally has [M188.280].

Again, I haven't read Mini 188, but was that just your stated opinion or his too?

Because if that was only your stated opinion, that gets dangerously close to misrepresentation.

And one doesn’t need to go beyond this thread to find him behaving thusly in this game:

EmpTyger: What about wonders? What about barbarians developing stuff (they almost certainly will have a faster tech tree than us, or get better units than us at each stage). What about a possible time limit? I can imagine no-lynch + building units being disasterous if we're not careful.

I'm also metagaming a little-I was in Sinister Overlord's last game, which got broken fairly easily. I'm assuming that he's spent more time polishing up this game.

Finally, fundamentally all protown players are roughly the same as far as I can tell. Discussing suspicions only hurts when it reveals power roles, but as far as I can tell, everybody and nobody is a power role. (That is, everybody has powers, but nobody is that much more valuable than anybody).

No-lynch might be the right play for today, but I still think discussion is useful.

Keeping my vote on for now.

Okay, now you've got me confused, what "thusly" behavior am I supposed to be looking at there? This seems like a typical Thok post.

EmpTyger, my bandwagon has taken way too long to develop, so either I'm scum and my partners are trying to avoid voting me or our scum consists of some hard-core lurkers. Since I know I'm innocent (I haven't gotten any support from anybody), I'm going to spend some time looking for lurkers. Let's try

unvote, vote swinkee FOS MOS, coporate claw

, with possibly some others to be added to the lurker list.<snip>

As hinted in [128], something about this bothered me:
What conclusion could Thok be trying to draw? He himself is implicitly admitting that he’s acted suspicious enough to be voted, even though he otherwise is denying my accusations as baseless. In fact, he *unvotes* me, all but conceding that I’m correct to be suspecting him; in fact, in [161] he considers me one of the best candidates to edit an investigatory list! His line of reasoning makes no sense- if hypothetically my accusations were baseless, then wouldn’t that be the best explanation for why Thok wasn’t receiving votes? So if they’re correct, then, well, doesn’t that make Thok scum? So why make ?

unless it’s a disguised warning to his fellow mafia

. And read that way, the line “I’m scum and my partners...” jumps out. In fact, given that he in [136] attacked inhim for following this logic, it makes even less sense.
I didn’t mention anything at the time because I was wanting to see reactions.

That post is the one I found most suspicious from Thok when reading over the thread. However, it is quite likely that this is a case of Thok trying to analyze the game-state (i.e. several lurkers and a very slow-moving bandwagon on him) and trying to do something similar to what I tried to do in the mini game we were in together (can't remember the number OTOH - I'll check when I have some more time). I got a bandwagon started on me so I could observe the voting pattern on what I knew to be a bandwagon against a pro-town player. Of course, I was a mason in that game, and that's not a trick I would be likely to try otherwise. However, the path of reasoning is valid.

What doesn't make sense about it is his unvoting you and considering you a trustworthy townie. It doesn't make sense to the point that it doesn't make sense from a townie perspective or a scum perspective.

Also, you're taking a lot of phrases completely out of context there.

Not that more evidence is needed, but Thok is the only one who has rushed to attack Puzzle or Astronaut without any elaboration from Vesuvan<snip>

This I admitted is circumstantial; an innocent might also have behaved this way. But compounded with the other evidence against him, my suspicions are only solidified.

Okay then.

I'll update "I don't see your reasoning for the Thok bandwagon" to "I disagree with your reasoning on the Thok bandwagon". However, since I already FOS'ed you and you both deserve it,

FOS: Thok

[EmpTyger]

As uncomfortable as I am with second-guessing my first inclination, I’m still not sure where to place my vote.

In terms of lurking, Bamboomancer, Iammars, roland, and swinkee have been absent, and dybeck, mlaker, and MoS have barely posted. Bamboo has been extremely active elsewhere on the site, but hasn’t posted in this thread since 10/17. Ditto Iammars, who hasn’t posted since 10/12! roland (not since 10/20) and swinkee (not since 10/23) have both been fairly active too despite not contributing here. There appears to be no reason why the others should be this absent either.


Vesuvan:

As is often the case in a mafia game, there are some things better left unsaid whether because they're irrelevant or because they involve giving away information that is better to be left obscure.

Sorry if that sounds evasive.<snip>

Allow me to be blunt: I was curious about whether there was actually any basis. However, I will respect your lead and drop this line of inquiry for now.

As for Thok, I just want to clarify a few points:

Yep, flipping between opposing no lynch and supporting it is suspicious, but not all that strong an indicator. People do change their minds. I'd consider this a fair reason to look more closely at someone, but not to lynch someone in the absence of a deadline or something more tangible.<snip>

That’s not my point. The point was that Thok was supporting lynch when others’ analysis indicated no-lynch was optimal, and no-lynch when others’ analysis indicated lynch was optimal; in doing so he gave no analysis of his own. So why was he advocating these then?

Actually, given that this was a contributing factor to your lynch in the last game I played with you in, that point raises my eyebrow toward you moreso than toward Thok.<snip>

Given that that’s a game-in-progress, I’d rather not comment on this.

<snip>Finally, I've said this before, but I'm not that useful of a day 1 player, especially protown. I need information to catch people, and right now there isn't that much to go on.

I played with you in the Poker mini. I *know* you are more than capable of analyzing and exploring unusual mechanics and setups on Day 1.

A lie.

Are you saying that you lied about him being able to analyze unusual setups as of day 1? Because I recall him being able to do so in a mini game I played with him in previously. Sure, we were both on the wrong track, but he was able to contribute to analysis of a rather unusual situation of 3 mason groups in a mini-game.<snip>

No. *Thok* stated that *he* was incapable of being useful Day 1. *I* was stating that this declaration was a lie. Which as you point out is refuted by your own experience, and [24], the “typical Thok post” I cited, also contradicts.

What doesn't make sense about it is his unvoting you and considering you a trustworthy townie. It doesn't make sense to the point that it doesn't make sense from a townie perspective or a scum perspective.<snip>

Actually, I do agree with this, which is why I considered the alternate explanation that he was trying to signal other mafia. [There’s another possibility I just did think of, which involves a game-in-progress, though this would reflect even worse on Thok.]

[SinisterOverlord]

Sire, the votes stand as follows:

Puzzle: 7 (Vesuvan, armlx, rajrhcpfreak, Mr. Flay, inHimshallibe, Thok, HezLucky)
swinkee: 2 (d_rouge, Mastermind of Sin)
Thok: 1 (VisMaior)
Mastermind of Sin: 1 (dybeck)

10 to lynch.

[dybeck]

I find this whole game really confusing - am I the only one?

[Mastermind of Sin]

i thought after allthe games ive been in with Vesuvan, he would have figured it out by now.

raj=town
raj=gets bored easily
raj=doesnt like extreamly long days
raj=gets killed
raj=role is revealed as pro town

you forgot one

raj=likes to go after protown players a lot

[Mastermind of Sin]

I find this whole game really confusing - am I the only one?

no, I'm confused, too. I can handle lots of shorter posts that have content, but those posts are huge!

[VisMaior]

So?ts are a boon as far as I can tell. more analysys=more chance to get scum, not to mention more chance for scum to slip.

Im following the Vesuvan-Puzzle debate closely. Vesuvan got me very unsure about Puzzle, but I still have a strong feeling that he might be protown. Mainly because some of the points he made that vesuvan picked out as scummy I have tought too. So if I have tought them, I can imagine that Puzzle can have tought them while beeing protown the whole time. The part that bothers me most is where he slips up with the not knowing about the setup, but I can still imagine that beeing just less attentive could cause that.

Simply put, if you actually WERE town and HAD upgraded, you would know that you don't receive your results until the next night begins.

Did I miss the part where Puzzle said that he had upgraded?

[Puzzle]

<snip>

Simply put, if you actually WERE town and HAD upgraded, you would know that you don't receive your results until the next night begins.

Did I miss the part where Puzzle said that he had upgraded?

I have too...

By the way, I must admit that I still don't understand what part of the setup I haven't understood, how I have slipped up about it and how that makes me scummy, unless it's referring to my initial question about who couldn't build units yet.
In this case, it will teach me to be more cautious about where I put my fingers when I lay a trap...

[Mr. Flay]

I'm partly confused (a lot of which I think will be alleviated tomorrow), but mainly I'm concerned about all the lurkers. However, I still believe Puzzle to be a good chance for a lynch today. We seem to be running out of steam, leaving just EMpTyger and Vesuvan ping-ponging back and forth....

[rajrhcpfreak]

i thought after allthe games ive been in with Vesuvan, he would have figured it out by now.

raj=town
raj=gets bored easily
raj=doesnt like extreamly long days
raj=gets killed
raj=role is revealed as pro town

you forgot one

raj=likes to go after protown players a lot

ok maybe day one i do. but in later days i realize who is scum and win it for the town.

[Thok]

Shouldn't we be thinking about whether Puzzle should claim a civilization at this close to lynch?

Also, EmpTyger, don't try to convince everybody to investigate me tonight; I don't mind 1-3 people investigating me tonight, but 7 or more investigations of me is a little redundant.

(Also I'll note that I've skimmed EmpTyger's magnum opus about me, but that I'll comment more on it by tomorrow. I'd prefer day doesn't end before we get a chance to talk more.)

[Vesuvan]

Okay, with that clarification I can see some of the argument against Thok, but it doesn't look strong enough to lynch him today IMO. The problem as I see it with the case against him is that a lot of his actions that are drawing the most suspicion for not making any sense as a townie also don't make any sense for scum either.

Also, if Puzzle is going to claim, I'd say now's the time to do it.

[inHimshallibe]

I'd prefer day doesn't end before we get a chance to talk more.

Although I do agree, I'd like to have this Day wrapped up before Thanksgiving.


Of 2006.