Mini #1022- PokeUPick(Game Over)

[NicolBolas]

Just like Switz and Espeonage.

[Robocopter87]

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Vote Count

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Vezokpiraka [0]
jimfinn [0]
NicolBolas [0]
Espeonage [3] gandalf5166, Xite91, Prox

gandalf5166 [4] Espeonage, mikeburnfire, vezokpiraka, Switz

Kyle99 [0]
Prox [0]
bv310 [0]
Jarti [0]
Xite91 [0]
Switz [1] Jarti
mikeburnfire [0]

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Not Voting

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jimfinn, kyle99, bv310, NicolBolas

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Amount to Lynch

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With 12 Alive it is 7 to Lynch.

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Deadline

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No deadline unless Activity lags.

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[gandalf5166]

unvote

I want to let Espeo present his case if he has one. And yeah, but they at least just aren't supplying their reasoning. Granted, if they make another post without revealing it, you know where my vote's going to go. But having reasoning that's just made up is a bit more serious. Considering a vote. Wow. Just realized, MBF is the only person voting me with any semblance of reasoning.

[jimfinn]

I'm getting a scumread on Espeonage mainly for his inconsistency, and I'm not getting much of a read on gandalf either way yet. Nothing he's said feels particularly pro-town or antitown yet. I'm reading him most closely other than Espeonage right now, though, mainly due to the wagon building on him.

[Xite91]

Espeonage [3] gandalf5166, Xite91, Prox

gandalf5166 [4] Espeonage, mikeburnfire, vezokpiraka, Switz

Pulling a Vezo on someone that's it's a little more likely to work with
Gandalf is town because the wagon on him grew too fast.
Now Vezo, give other reasons, kthnxbai

[jimfinn]

Nonono, I'm not saying he's town because the wagon grew so fast, I'm saying I (have a null-read) and (am reading him closer than other players because the wagon grew so fast). Hopefully parenthetical separation clarifies my meaning.

[Xite91]

Nonono, I'm not saying he's town because the wagon grew so fast, I'm saying I (have a null-read) and (am reading him closer than other players because the wagon grew so fast). Hopefully parenthetical separation clarifies my meaning.

That was more a slam against Vezo, if you couldn't tell.
Why did you get so defensive?

[jimfinn]

I felt you were comparing me to Vezo and misreading me. I wanted my meaning to be clear.

[Xite91]

I felt you were comparing me to Vezo and misreading me. I wanted my meaning to be clear.

My post had nothing to do with you, if it did, I would have made it abundantly clear.
You seem

really

jumpy, os IGMEOY

[Robocopter87]

Finding Replacement for Kyle99.

[Robocopter87]

drmyshottyizsik replaces Kyle99. Welcome him!

[Xite91]

OMG!

Unvote Vote: Shotty

For everything you've done! lol

Unvote, Vote: Esp

[NicolBolas]

Welcome drmy... Can i call you shotty?

[NicolBolas]

I see you, bv310. C'mon, post please.

[Xite91]

I see you, bv310. C'mon, post please.

He won't. its his meta lol

[NicolBolas]

I'm just hoping we dont have to deal with two replacements.

Why is bv still playing if he never plays, though?

[drmyshottyizsik]

Vote: Xite

for old times sake, jk

unvote

[Xite91]

Vote: Xite

for old times sake, jk

unvote

I can see us being good rivals, so to save myself the trouble, I have to ask, are you scum?

[drmyshottyizsik]

Nope how about you?

[bv310]

Oy. Nearly Forgot I was playing this game.

Catchup post will be in by tomorrow. Going to work now.

[Xite91]

Nope how about you?

Not this time round. But for some reason I can see you being scum

Oy. Nearly Forgot I was playing this game.

Catchup post will be in by tomorrow. Going to work now.

We shall see.

[gandalf5166]

Doesn't DMSIS need to name-claim? I don't think kyle ever did.

[Switz]

Okay, Nicol's reasoning makes sense. So here's my case.

The short version: Gandalf's overzealous play makes him likely to be scum because it involves him both keeping town distracted and pushing cases with little merit so fast we don't notice the lack of evidence.

Long version: Throughout this game, Gandalf's been playing very aggressively. He's one of the more frequent posters, but despite this, there's very little content in his posts. In fact, I think it's safe to say there's no scumhunting in any of his play so far.

But here's what he has done.

Forced Quick Nameclaiming

I think we've all determined by this point that a mass nameclaim is pretty much the way to go. But that wasn't the case on Page 2, where our first claim is made. And why was that claim made?

Not much point in breadcrumbing if we're about to nameclaim. I support the idea of nameclaiming, although I don't think that it would be that hard for mafia to fake-claim. While it might not help too much, it certainly couldn't hurt.

I say we go for it, I have no problem being the first, and again I ask, do people want me to full claim, considering it will help town?

If you think it will help, go ahead. If you're really important, I'm sure we have a doc.

Alright

Well, I am the Water Type
Each night I get to choose one player to do water-type damage to (Vig)
Which is why I wanted to claim, I want it to be town directed, and I don't think the doc should worry about me, the kill still goes through if I'm NK'd, and I'm sure there's better PR's to protect.

In the span of 15 minutes, Gandalf convinces Xite to claim by encouraging him to commit to his promise to be the first and his promise that there is a Doc waiting to protect him. Aside from the fact that this reasoning is opposite (which someone else pointed out, I don't remember who), this is just anti-town. The pro-town move to make would be to make sure Xite doesn't claim until more than, say, half the people in the game have had a chance to weigh in. Xite's claim broke down the floodgates, encouraging everyone else to join the massclaim.

Now, if Gandalf is scum, as I believe him to be, this course of action serves multiple purposes. It forces the town to focus on claims and keeps them from doing any initial scumhunting based on gameplay; instead we're theorizing based on claims. It also, in this particular case, convinced someone who appears to be a power role to claim. Regardless of Xite's alignment, this is bad for us; if he's really the Vig, he's now exposed and likely to get picked off, if he's scum pretending to be Vig, he's been outed in an attempt to gain our trust. And it accelerates the game's speed before everyone can weigh in. Scum have everything to gain from us moving faster than we should and not thinking about our actions.

And lest you think this is an isolated incident, look here:

I did not exactly "list bandwagon". The post by gandalf perfectly addressed my concerns, while still giving the town a way to input some opinions.

And I want to see more input from others before I claim. That's why I posted that "where is everyone else?" post. Your reasoning is bad, but I don't see any scummy things about it.

...
Preview Edit 2: NB claim now. As town, you should have no reason to wait to claim. Waiting just opens a whole bucket of WIFOM.

Again, he sees someone hesitating to claim and pushes them over the edge. The only difference is this time he uses the stick instead of the carrot; whereas before claiming would warrant the protection of a Doc, now not claiming has the stigma of being labeled non-town. And his actions afterwards are even more interesting. Which leads me to my next point...

Parrotting Others' Ideas

Through the game, Gandalf hasn't been actually coming up with any unique theories or arguments against anyone, at least not any with evidence. What he'd rather do instead is parrot back the beliefs of others to gain support. Like in this lovely exchange right after Nicol does claim.

So why did you wait to claim?

Wow, scum caught already? Sneasel isn't from Gold and Silver, is he? And yeah, why the hell did you wait to claim?

Ignoring the fact that this statement is made shortly after Gandalf was encouraging Nicol to claim without any such questions about why he was waiting so long to do so, this is a clear instance where Gandalf takes up the idea of another and runs with it so we don't see that he doesn't have any ideas of his own. Here's another example, early in his crusade against Espy.

Wait, is Espeo joking? Because he hasn't posted any reasoning behind his vote at all.

Cases should be posted.

This. Voting without posting your reasoning is 100% sure to be unhelpful to town.

Why is it that the first time he points out that Espy hasn't posted a case, it's a confusing potential joke, and the second time, it's antitown? Answer: Because the second time it's Prox that says it, (possibly) inadvertently laying the groundwork for Gandalf to rail against Espeonage. Which brings me to my last point...

Over-Relentless Idea-Pushing

Now, Gandalf hasn't been quite as guilty of these former offenses lately, because he's been busy trying to make everyone else (especially Espeonage, MBF, and Vezo) look scummy instead, and this is how: by pushing their apparent scumminess down our throats until we believe it. I'm not going to post quotes here because most of the posts I would quote are so short they'd waste space, but their message is always the same. If it's about Espy, he's saying that he lacks a case and is scummy. If it's about MBF, he starts talking about how his summary "misreps" everyone. If it's about Vezo, Vezo's making up the scumGandalf meta he's using. You get the drift.

The point is, if he pushes these ideas long enough, we're going to start believing them. But there's no hard evidence to back any of these assertions up. Espeonage could be making up the case, but we have no way of knowing. MBF could be misrepping, but no one has come forward with examples. Etc. But Gandalf doesn't need any evidence anyways as long as he can convince us to go after people like Espy without thinking about it.

Which brings me back to the short version of the argument at the top of the post.

[gandalf5166]

That case is kind of hilarious. By taking my posts out of context, you've managed to twist them to sound scummy. I'll show you exactly why in the morning, I've got to eat and go to bed now. And by the way, I believe MBF is 100% town. I just don't like his summary.

[Xite91]

1) Long version: Throughout this game, Gandalf's been playing very aggressively. He's one of the more frequent posters, but despite this, there's very little content in his posts. In fact, I think it's safe to say there's no scumhunting in any of his play so far.

2) In the span of 15 minutes, Gandalf convinces Xite to claim by encouraging him to commit to his promise to be the first and his promise that there is a Doc waiting to protect him. Aside from the fact that this reasoning is opposite (which someone else pointed out, I don't remember who), this is just anti-town. The pro-town move to make would be to make sure Xite doesn't claim until more than, say, half the people in the game have had a chance to weigh in. Xite's claim broke down the floodgates, encouraging everyone else to join the massclaim.

3) Now, if Gandalf is scum, as I believe him to be, this course of action serves multiple purposes. It forces the town to focus on claims and keeps them from doing any initial scumhunting based on gameplay; instead we're theorizing based on claims. It also, in this particular case, convinced someone who appears to be a power role to claim. Regardless of Xite's alignment, this is bad for us; if he's really the Vig, he's now exposed and likely to get picked off, if he's scum pretending to be Vig, he's been outed in an attempt to gain our trust. And it accelerates the game's speed before everyone can weigh in. Scum have everything to gain from us moving faster than we should and not thinking about our actions.

4) Again, he sees someone hesitating to claim and pushes them over the edge. The only difference is this time he uses the stick instead of the carrot; whereas before claiming would warrant the protection of a Doc, now not claiming has the stigma of being labeled non-town. And his actions afterwards are even more interesting. Which leads me to my next point...

5) Through the game, Gandalf hasn't been actually coming up with any unique theories or arguments against anyone, at least not any with evidence. What he'd rather do instead is parrot back the beliefs of others to gain support. Like in this lovely exchange right after Nicol does claim.

6) Now, Gandalf hasn't been quite as guilty of these former offenses lately, because he's been busy trying to make everyone else (especially Espeonage, MBF, and Vezo) look scummy instead, and this is how: by pushing their apparent scumminess down our throats until we believe it. I'm not going to post quotes here because most of the posts I would quote are so short they'd waste space, but their message is always the same. If it's about Espy, he's saying that he lacks a case and is scummy. If it's about MBF, he starts talking about how his summary "misreps" everyone. If it's about Vezo, Vezo's making up the scumGandalf meta he's using. You get the drift.

7) The point is, if he pushes these ideas long enough, we're going to start believing them. But there's no hard evidence to back any of these assertions up. Espeonage could be making up the case, but we have no way of knowing. MBF could be misrepping, but no one has come forward with examples. Etc. But Gandalf doesn't need any evidence anyways as long as he can convince us to go after people like Espy without thinking about it.

1) I lol'd a bit. It's only a 9 page game, and since when does playing aggressive = scum? If that was the case I would be scum 85-90% of the time, which, come on, that's just against statistics.
2) I was already going to claim, I just figured it'd be better to ask first (don't ask me why, I just did) I even said I don't want a doc to protect me tonight.
3) Getting claims out now will help later in the game, even just name claims
4) IIRC by this time, weren't there already a good amount of claims? I can only see relevance with this if it were coaching, but eh, again we'll see.
5) I can actually see your point in the first example, but the second... that just looks like you're grasping for whatever you can get
6) Esp needs to post a case in his next post (why is he suddenly AWOL anyways?) because he's been trying to convince us that he's scummy but not saying why, I agree with your point with MBF (although I think he backed off with that one, but I'd have to go back and check), and if it's the truth with the fake scum meta then Vezo needs to shut up about it, also she's not really scumhunting IMO.
One point I do agree with on this (even though it seems more implied than said) is that he's going after the likely targets, but it's D1 and that will happen.
7) Okay, so now you're setting us up for "If we agree with him, it's all part of his plan." In other words, discrediting him for the rest of the game.

So, I would love to vote you, but I really want a case from Esp (since what he's doing is one of those things that just piss me off, even when I do it )
So for now

FoS: Switz

For conveying a case in a more scummy light than it actually is, grasping for bad examples and making them seem like good ones, and setting up a player to be discredited for the rest of the game.