Mafia on Holy Orders (Game Over!)

[Iecerint]

Vote: Sociopath

Were Sociopath town in a game with me in it, it would be the first time.

[Iecerint]

Nope. His explanation is slightly hyperbolic. (Mine is not.) Also, one of the times was when I was scum and he was SK.

[Iecerint]

@ Friend -- You are getting a special preview of what those players were talking about.

[Iecerint]

I thought you were doing it on purpose.

[Iecerint]

@ Furco -- It is my personal interpretation that your unusual style is an affectation, and that you have a main account elsewhere that is better-behaved. Also, even if that's not the case, the flagrancy of those 2 posts after Friend's question look like answer-by-example to me.

[Iecerint]

I like the burgeoning Beefster wagon better than my RVS SP vote.

Unvote; Vote: Beefster

.

Different reason, though. First, the claim that they're "playing on one another" (positing 2 scum) looks like an attempt to tie someone to a scumfriend more than a reasoned analysis. Second, the worry about hammering looks faked; I don't think Furco has more than a handful of votes, and this is a Large game. Third, I think the defensiveness about his prior post that begins that one ("Of course my last post wasn't very useful") leans scummy.

[Iecerint]

Also, Furcolow:

I'm lynching you because I've taken a look in several other games, and you have provided

terrible

reasoning in every game, and you act even more scummy than I DO.

This is the one policy lynch I support.

This put something in the air.

I like the burgeoning Beefster wagon better than my RVS SP vote.

Unvote; Vote: Beefster

.

Different reason, though. First, the claim that they're "playing on one another" (positing 2 scum) looks like an attempt to tie someone to a scumfriend more than a reasoned analysis. Second, the worry about hammering looks faked; I don't think Furco has more than a handful of votes, and this is a Large game. Third, I think the defensiveness about his prior post that begins that one ("Of course my last post wasn't very useful") leans scummy.

This gave me a bright light.

[Iecerint]

Hmm?

[Iecerint]

I wish you had formalized your limitations a bit more clearly.

[Iecerint]

@ Soc -- convince me that Friend is a better wagon.

[Iecerint]

I am sympathetic to Friend being scum, if you're referring to your argument to that effect. Your feelings about Beefster seem pretty nonspecific, though.

No, I don't think his contributions are deliberately subpar. I've never played with Beefster before, though, so I have no reason to assume as much. If you know something about him that you think is relevant for interpreting his behavior, please teach me.

[Iecerint]

OK, so, @ Soc, your bit about BS doesn't make much sense to me. I'm going to summarize it as I read it so that I can show me where I am wrong:

There are 2 ways scum can seem scummy:

A) By accident
B) On purpose

You agreed with me when I said BS wasn't intentionally a crap player, so the question is whether he is scummy by accident. But it isn't an accident because he does it (?????).

So...are you basically saying "BS is VI"?

Also, I think we talked past one another on the first part -- I thought you were asking whether I thought BS was a player like Furco who deliberately plays with a scummy style.

I can see where you're coming from in the paragraph about Friend, though.

[Iecerint]

@ Soc -- Not quite. That time we were having a conversation about how I'd totally been inconsistent about something, and then you decided you just thought I was scum because of my warped view of the game or whatever. You're remembering the "warped" bit (which I was totally honest about and always holds) and not the fact that you originally caught me using inconsistent rhetoric.

I just reread Beefster in iso, though, and I think LL's vote itself doesn't make much sense. Beefster's

subsequent

posts still look kinda scummy, but the one LL voted him for is fine. I also agree with that first paragraph of Agar's (but not the rest -- it looks kinda fluffy to me). Personal introspection does imply that I, at least, would be more likely to criticize someone for "posting to post" if I were scum myself. I think different scumtells occur to me when I'm scum, and that's the sort of thing that would occur to me early game.

Unvote; Vote: LL

.

I had something else to say, but I forgot.

[Iecerint]

Unvote; Vote: Friend

Soc wins.

[Iecerint]

@ Wraith, it's not that a specific post of Soc's is great; I'm alluding to our earlier discussion about Beefster vs. Friend being scummier (i.e. he argued for Friend). I don't think there's anything scummy about mothrax yet; I think people attacking him almost have to be distancing or attacking a townie. Friend's post about mothrax's most recent post being scummy is what convinced me.

[Iecerint]

EBWOP: Obviously, they can't literally ALL be scum, but it's a +scum bit as I see it, and was the threshold-crosser for Friend for me.

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Good point. Personally I think the VC flavor signifies the righteousness/evildoing of actions rather than alignment, but not because someone is town/scum. The flavor wouldn't be so blatant as to spoil alignment.

I think the VC flavor indicates something different from that.

However, given that you think what you just said, why aren't you all over wanting to lynch Beefster, since my vote for him and the explanation is what got the specialest glow and so on?

[Iecerint]

My post didn't make any reference to a policy-lynch, though. This was my post:

I like the burgeoning Beefster wagon better than my RVS SP vote. Unvote; Vote: Beefster.

Different reason, though. First, the claim that they're "playing on one another" (positing 2 scum) looks like an attempt to tie someone to a scumfriend more than a reasoned analysis. Second, the worry about hammering looks faked; I don't think Furco has more than a handful of votes, and this is a Large game. Third, I think the defensiveness about his prior post that begins that one ("Of course my last post wasn't very useful") leans scummy.

[Iecerint]

(Unless you're arguing that my post was anti-policy lynch inasmuch as it was scumhunting logic at-all, in which case it would seem to be a pretty nonspecific barometer.)

[Iecerint]

My point is less "let's figure out how things work, guys!" and more "You have said you think things work THIS way, but your behavior is NOT consistent with that."

Also, I just glanced through your iso. When did I push a wagon on Furco?

[Iecerint]

Furc -- voting yourself, then claiming that it was a clever tactic or some sort, is prototypical scummy VI behavior.

[Iecerint]

<3SP<3

Maybe he is town for the first time.

Unvote; Vote: Wraith

For both the thing that I noticed (his explanation for it was sorta ad hoc and didn't impress me) and the thing after it that Soc noticed.

[Iecerint]

What did you do, since you appear to be cognizant of it and/or to have done it intentionally?

[Iecerint]

Nah, SP; I said stuff about Wraith first, Soc said it second. I mentioned as much in my votepost.

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You said there were 1-2 scum on your wagon before IIRC.

[Iecerint]

OMG

"Spooky."

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I don't like the speculation that Wraith is cleared in any way by 490. If anything, the cheerful referral to "psychos" would appear to imply a scumlynch than a mislynch. I MORE anticipated a scum flip after seeing his post.

In other words, I agree with whichever player is (I assume) using flavor to express dislike in Wraith's faux-posthammer post.

[Iecerint]

I'm not implying that you didn't think you were hammered. I'm saying that your behavior was consistent with scum thinking you were hammered.

Granted that your confusion in 509 there does look genuine.

[Iecerint]

EBWOP: "you being scum who thought he had been hammered."

[Iecerint]

This is a test.

Vote: !!!!!!!!!!

[Iecerint]

Vote: Beefster

. He was my favorite wagon yesterday until Wraith's shenanigans.

Someone should show me the scummy thing that Furc did during the Wraith wagon.

[Iecerint]

Unvote; Vote: Me=Weird

.

I'd forgotten about you.

[Iecerint]

And I totally don't know what we're talking about with regard to random numbers.

[Iecerint]

I'm voting for you because my biggest second-tier targets were Beefster and Friend, and I think Friend has evidenced more pro-town play in the past several pages than have you. Refer back to my votepost for Beefster for why I thought he was scum.

Also -- and this is peripheral, cuz it's harder to interpret -- I got my shiny light when I was targeting your slot before, so I have relatively good feelings about targeting you. The light could've been due to other things -- maybe someone rapid-investigated me around that time or something -- but the fact that the lights are tied to specific posts makes me think it has something to do with, well, the specific posts. The whole thing could also be a wily scum mechanic, I guess, or sanity-influenced, but ye know.

Yesterday I thought I was being Neighborized into the "warm light" Holy Order or whatever, but I guess I was wrong.

[Iecerint]

I'M POSTING THIS IN A SEPARATE POST SEE HOW HANDY?

Or it could be that the lights are the !!!!!!!! players ways of expressing their views of the game.

[Iecerint]

Or they might be a non-!!!!! player's way of expressing game views.

[Iecerint]

Or it may be investigative!

[Iecerint]

Maybe at least some of them are scum-based?

[Iecerint]

Maybe not the obvious ones?

[Iecerint]

Maybe we should make up a system for letting !!!!!!!!s endore specific combinations of posts...?

For example -- this post means all of the above except for 613.

[Iecerint]

This one excludes 614.

[Iecerint]

My spam was so that a hypothetical player in charge of warm/yucky light messages could give us information about how to interpret them, if you didn't quite follow what I was doing.

I have an exam tomorrow, but will do your exercise after that.

[Iecerint]

I agree with LL's suspects/townread post. Except that I might switch in Plum for someone, on the basis that her read on me seems a little fake. It's actually kinda similar to rhetoric I used as scum in a game she modded awhile ago.

[Iecerint]

@ M=W -- I guess so, yeah; put from my perspective, something scummy happened, and then nothing happened to change my mind. We don't have MUCH idea of what the flavor means, which is why I did my thing so that we could figure it out. Yep, you've got it right. No, I don't believe I've softclaimed any PR; dunno what you're hallucinating there.

Furc's recent posts read like a legitimate Iec-parody.

[Iecerint]

Oh. I just meant voting.

[Iecerint]

furc, games are not tools for you to use to sculpt your own meta.

I laughed.

[Iecerint]

I like CKD's post a lot.

Vote: vezo

I reread Sebguer's 6 posts from ages ago, since there seemed to be a disproportionate amount of clamor about them. The Furc policy lynch is terrible, but it doesn't seem proportional to the scrutiny it warranted.

[Iecerint]

OK, well, w/e. I am your slave in the short term.

[Iecerint]

@ Plum -- IIRC, this is what happened.

Beefster posts something.
LL votes Beefster for crap reasons.
Beefster responds with crap.
I vote Beefster for the 2nd crap (Beefster's), since I didn't notice LL's crap the first time.

Then later on, I notice LL's crap and vote him for it.

Possible early game distancing between them if one flips scum idk.

[Iecerint]

2Town4Town is craplogic.

[Iecerint]

Pledging to be CKD's slave so long as he continues to deliver is not problematic.

When I'm scum, I feel a kind of urge to call others out on things I myself am doing (i.e. because I am prototypical scum in those instances). Your tell on Beefster fit that perfectly.

[Iecerint]

I think it mostly indicates that I'm not very confident in my reads and am relatively confident in CKD's.

Why didn't you whine when Soc did the same thing a few pages ago?

Nope, they aren't. However:

1. That doesn't mean they aren't applicable on average and
2. Your vote was either scummy or very bad IMO.

I wish Soc would have an avatar again btw.

[Iecerint]

People are erroneously inferring that Furc's playstyle is a "stance." It's not. It's a technique, albeit a misguided one.

[Iecerint]

@ Friend -- It could be that they think CKD is town for reconsidering on vezo when he'd been under such scrutiny.

I want to vote mothy, but AGar and Friend are there. It makes me uncomfortable....

[Iecerint]

There's that role that has imba investi-powers but dies whenever they post about it in thread. It reminds me of that a little.

[Iecerint]

It's not even the first time it's happened this game. <_<

[Iecerint]

Unvote; Vote: mothrax

I guess.

[Iecerint]

Unvote

[Iecerint]

Can revote if someone decides that he is lying 95% chance or greater or whatever.

[Iecerint]

So...did your null track on AGar affect your feelings about him?

[Iecerint]

Null track doesn't clear AGar, but it's probably as close to clearing him as a track is able.

I'm personally guilty of not trusting my negative tracks at times, though.

[Iecerint]

Is he at L-1 right now?

[Iecerint]

Vote: mothrax

[Iecerint]

My guess is that the remaining battery power can be used to some end.

[Iecerint]

It's possible that they're unrelated events.

[Iecerint]

Ugh. What are the axes on that chart? Does not compute.

[Iecerint]

And each chart is a separate player's wagon?

Teach me how you're reading it. I can't get much out of it.

[Iecerint]

Looks like she added a different color of red?

[Iecerint]

OK, so you can use it to see who came late, left, and so on if you check player-at-a-time.

Larger image is extremely wonderful.

[Iecerint]

I think there was some mothrax stuff D1, too, so....

[Iecerint]

Probably his point is that you left yourself off your graph, which keeps it from being a totes objective view of what happened.

Unvoting investi-PRs to evaluate shit is pretty normative IMO. Not that it's not likely that 1 one of us might be scum, if just via background probabilities.

I doubt CKD is scum (less than background probability). He knew I'd follow him to mothrax cuz I proxy'd, so it'd be a pretty ballsy wagonpush. But ye know.

[Iecerint]

Oh, I missed it. Was looking for "Soc." I dunno what he was talking about, then; he should explain.

Yeah, you're probably right on the other, too; a mass unvote is excessive. I sort of forgot to think about it that way because I was the first (off of L-1) unvote.

CKD's unvote had more going on, though -- if you look back, it was like "unvote; vote: pm I guess...HEY WAIT A SECOND unvote: pm NOW I WILL INTERROGATE YOU." So I think he indicated intent to revote pretty quickly. Coupled with voting moth-y when his wagon was high with proxy'd vote, I think bussing is not a very parsimonious interpretation.

Your rationale on Furc is reasonable, but I still think he's more likely scum than CKD. For one, he's kinda erratic with that kind of thing. For example, he hammered his scumfriend in a recently completed game (Mini 1000) under sketchy circumstances (e.g. partner had not even claimed yet) and seemed to think this would give him some hardcore leverage later on. On the other hand, I don't think he rhetoric-busses his scumfriends very much; he's basically a sweetie most of the time.

I wouldn't lynch either of them as my first choice.

I would prefer vezo or pacman out of v/p/CKD/Furc atm.

[Iecerint]

CKD, what is your preferred wagon?

[Iecerint]

I never said you were poisoning the well. That was AGar. Did you accidentally type him for me there, or misremember who said what?

[Iecerint]

I think it's pretty bogus that people think my behavior this game has been pro-town tbh. I've been extremely lazy and more focused on other games. The only original thought I've had all game (except for like RVS-tier stuff on Beefster) is the point that CKD voting mothy late with proxy is serious business.

[Iecerint]

I guess I look towner when everyone has a naughty meta but you know.

[Iecerint]

Vote: pacman

L-2'd

[Iecerint]

OK.

Unvote; Vote: Locke Lamora

[Iecerint]

Was there a glowy light about LL?

[Iecerint]

Soc claimed vez is confirmed town. So, you think Soc is wrong? If Soc isn't wrong, does that change matters much?

[Iecerint]

MOTHERFUCKER.

That was a breadcrumb.

[Iecerint]

Spoilers: No.

[Iecerint]

Vote: Me=Weird

[Iecerint]

I agree with you. I've thought that slot was scummy since the beginning of time.

I've actually thought that several of CKD's posts since I defended him awhile ago were really off, but I do think his vote for mothy was brazenly chosen unless he just forgot about me.

[Iecerint]

I know. Those were separate thoughts.

[Iecerint]

Relevant because Soc was all CKD IS OBVSCUM and I was like WELL I DUN THINK SO HERE IS WHY and he was like OK THAT MAKES SENSE ACTUALLY THX.

But since then CKD has been sorta getting crap past the radar.

It could be that I am mourning Soc.

[Iecerint]

I actually kinda think SP may be scum. His approach to this game reminds me of how he did Plum's Lay of Leithian mafia a bit ago.

Plum, what do you think about that?

I could see him as scum with M=W tho so w/e.

[Iecerint]

Bonus points: SP is NOT scum with Furc -- he's a total softie and never pushes his scumfriends like that unless they start it (i.e. by signaling I WOULD LIKE TO DISTANCE NOW PLZ). He does softbus by joining wagons, but he never rhetorics against scumpals.

And Furc is not scum anyway AFAICT so ye know.

[Iecerint]

Glancing through your iso, your targets (vez, Furc, me) do little to inspire confidence with regard to your scumhunting motives. Also, your predecessor was naughty.

I think the best way to convince me that you are town would involve making a case on someone or a town/meh/scum tier post or something. It looks like you're going after easy suspects. Your targets also mirror SP's, and I think he may be scum based on meta in large games like this as I just stated.

I am waiting to see whether Plum agrees with me about SP before I go too far down that rabbit hole.

I admit that Friend is a little shifty but I don't think he's scum with you (which is why a MW=>Friend case isn't going to convince me; it's just showing me that you're probably not scum with him).

[Iecerint]

I have been scum with you zillions of times. You are a benevolent overlord.

[Iecerint]

That is in no way how I recall DGB being lynched. As I recall, she tried to get me lynched, failed, whined about it and tried to re-push by making up meta on me, and got caught. Then MO (or Tar?) noticed other little inconsistencies in her play, etc. As I recall, your first post against her kinda followed mine, and any real rhetoric was after things were pretty much set. I suppose Haylen (SKscum) was in the running a little, but only just.

CKD, why do you think I'm scum?

[Iecerint]

I got Lights for caling M=W scum, though, so.

[Iecerint]

Well, Beefster, but ye know.

And I agree with CKD.

[Iecerint]

DEAR PLUM PLEASE SAY WHETHER SP IS SCUM.

[Iecerint]

Well there was that other thing with vez, too, so I think there may've been more to it than that.

It's only that at the very least.

Lynching him/her is v v suboptimal IMO.

Better lynches include: SP (based on VItown reads/evidence and meta) or M=W (based on god idk who is scum mebe him).

[Iecerint]

HOLY SHIT LIGHTS TOTALLY THINK THAT VEZ IS SCUM THO.

Well that makes me ughughughughugh.

[Iecerint]

Well the lights have called M=W scum, too, though.

On the other hand, if the lights are based on silent investi-roles, the more recent vez-scum posts are probably more reliable than D1 M=Wscum posts.

[Iecerint]

Soc didn't specify. However, he said that vezo was confirmed town except for one minor possibility. Since Soc flipped tracker, a parsimonious explanation is that he negative-tracked vez and the minor possibility is that vez is a goon who didn't send in the NK.

Vez also said something with Soc that might have implied something else was going on. So there may be another thing to it, too.

[Iecerint]

Caveat -- it'd be odd if mothrax was the one who sent in the NK N1, but Soc called him confirmed scum D2 IIRC.

[Iecerint]

That part may've been because of the claimfail, though.

[Iecerint]

If they're actually players, the D1 lights were probably just the light's ways of indicating approval and disapproval of a character's statements. Later ones'll be more reliable, as they probably have more investi-abilities that've come into play by then.

[Iecerint]

Well, it would be a sane Cop with massive communication problems. Not out of the question.

[Iecerint]

And not necessarily a Cop; any investi-stuff would do.

[Iecerint]

Or they could have a 3rd party wincon.

[Iecerint]

This Soc post has a quotation of my "HERE'S WHY CKD IS NOT SCUM IMO" and then Soc's "WELL VOTING PATTERN IMPLIES OTHERWISE BUT THAT IS A GOOD ARGUMENT" IIRC. Look back a few in his iso for "Why CKD is scum." I think it involved which players unvoted mothrax and all that.

Also, pacman, in case you weren't sure, that second post of my mine you just quoted is about MW -- not Furc. Your "the only valid Furc" thing makes me confused.

Unrelated note: my glow indicates that at least one !!!!!! says that he has non-Cop investigation abilities.

[Iecerint]

Lolwat. I lied. Hang on tho.

This post.

:X:X

[Iecerint]

Meh, I suppose he didn't, looking back. The CKD votepost is as close as he gets. I interpreted it that way because he'd decided that one of me and CKD was scum by the mothy business.

[Iecerint]

Money @ mouth.

Unvote; Vote: SocioPath

[Iecerint]

@ SP -- Rather, the precipitating factor was your Pacman vote. Does not make sense.

@ MW -- they could have a town wincon or scum wincon without contributing to needing to be killed or whatever. Like "wins with town."

[Iecerint]

CKD, I explicitly said why I thought you were non-scum before. You voted mothrax when he had a big wagon and I'd proxy'd my vote to you. It wasn't a distancing move I'd expect scum to make. This is what the Soc thing was about.

Also, you only voted me after I started to question whether I was wrong.

[Iecerint]

So you really voted me for "no longer buddying you"? Or you secretly thought I was scum when I convinced Soc to unvote you?

[Iecerint]

In the post I just linked a few posts ago. He'd already voted you, then he says he agrees with my second point about you and unvotes while he ruminates.

[Iecerint]

One weird thing is all the misspellings. I get a "certain number of words" PR, but it's not clear what PR is motivating all the misspelt things.

[Iecerint]

Well, Friend got a PM with a lot of things misspelt. It looks like a PR would have caused it, but it's not clear what the PR would've been.

Like, part of it would've been "one word per line," but all the misspellings don't make sense. Why would a player do that deliberately?

I'm also somewhat skeptical of Friend being able to post private player correspondence directly like that.

I'm trying to determine if these concerns can be resolved.

[Iecerint]

WTF LOOM OMINOUSLY IS REALLY INTENSE.

THAT IS THE FIRST TIME I THINK.

WAT.

Also --

Vote Count XVIII

~ The Tribulation has begun...

pacman (L-4) ~ Plum, Socrates, vezokpiraka, SocioPath

Furcolow (L-5) ~ mothrax, pacman, Chronopie
mothrax (L-6) ~ AGar, Friend
Me=Weird (L-7) ~ Locke Lamora
Plum (L-7) ~ zwetschenwasser
vezokpiraka (L-7) ~ Iecerint

Not Voting:

curiouskarmadog, Me=Weird, Furcolow

AGar 0 | Chronopie 2 | Me= 0 | Friend 0 | Furc 0 | Iece 0 | Locke 0 | mothrax 0 | pacman 0 | Plum 0 PROD1 6 | ckd 1 | Socio 0 | Socrates 0 | vezo 1 | zwet 1

--With 15 alive, it will take 8 to lynch.

---Please note my V/LA, as mentioned in my sig. If I reeeeeally can't have access, SpyreX will step in on Sunday.

Battery power:

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(59%)

The little birds say this VC is of special note.

[Iecerint]

I bet the small glow player is town. That was extremely workmanlike.

[Iecerint]

Well, I'm assuming that a given player can only produce a certain subset of messages.

[Iecerint]

I look at the thread when there's a new post, but I've seen no real progress in a rl week or so.

Why, is that VC the best thing ever for a reason someone discussed somewhere? Teach me.

[Iecerint]

Well, yeah, both have LIGHT FLAVOR and DARK FLAVOR.

But the gradations are either reserved for specific players.

[Iecerint]

Or certain players can express themselves in certain ways (even if both have light/dark).

[Iecerint]

What was the point of the VC tho. Looks made-up. Nothing stands out, unless he's arguing that SP is town for being 4th on near-equal wagons.

[Iecerint]

Err, I meant or else everyone can do whatever the hell they want.****

[Iecerint]

...How do we know Haylen got the ability then?

Good Fairygodmother -- do you have the ability to grant abilities to players?

[Iecerint]

OK, I have read it. 2 questions.

How do you know it was associated with that post: timestamp or something specific?
Also, why was vez doing in this post:

Socrates you know what I am going to claim.

[Iecerint]

Hmm. The first kinda makes sense, since you got it later. Please ask Vi whether vezo was also told the exact post as such.

Why on earth would you lampshade someone being an investi-role? (I understand that you're not vezo; still, can't figure out what was up there.)

[Iecerint]

Lampshading

And thanks.

[Iecerint]

^ So, that looks like the guy in charge of DARK is upset that I called the LIGHT guy town and that I was wrong that both had both OR that both had different gradations.

ALSO -- there was an error in the relevant post -- the *DARK* guy lampshaded the ancient VC rather than the LIGHT guy subject to Vi's correction.

[Iecerint]

My interpretation is that a !!!!! disliked me calling LIGHT town (maybe in part to highlight that it'd been a Vi typo so I didn't keep repeating THATLIGHT-TOWN in my head?) for his post and then said I was wrong about both !!!!!!s having access to both light valencies.

[Iecerint]

I don't see how that has anything to do with defending pacman, no. If you think otherwise, clarify matters,

Everything in this game is all WIFOM anyways. It should go without saying that it's not 100%.

[Iecerint]

Waiting on Haylen.

[Iecerint]

I vote hop a lot. I usually join the biggest wagon on which I have a scum read.
Pacman and mothrax wagon were equal so I stood onto the pacman one. Now mothrax got bigger and I have a scum read on him but pacman was a bigger scum read.

The offending vezo post.

It is pretty bad tbh. lol-tier.

Waiting on Haylen still tho.

[Iecerint]

OK, Haylen apparently isn't really checking with Vi.

I think it's probably a good idea for me to reveal at this point that I also received an ability D2. It was also kinda in the middle of D2, but not at the exact same time as Haylen. Vi did not indicate that I had received my ability after a specific post.

My guess was that I received the ability from some player, but I don't know who it was from. If I were to guess a step farther, I'd say I thought it was one of the two !!!!!!!!!s.

[Iecerint]

I just doublechecked, and I think I actually got the ability D3, so, uh, totally nevermind. Eww. <_<

It was late September 7th.

I'm a Neighborizer. I targeted Socrates after I got the ability. That's why I raged lots when he died and called it a crumb.

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@ CKD -- I messed up the first time I looked back and thought it was D2, which made me wonder if each !!!!!!! could give an ability to a player at that time, which would make Haylen's ability more likely to have come from scum, especially given that she "guessed" the kill target.

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I do not know 100% that scum give abilities, or even that my ability is from a player (though I assumed so, since I started out VT). I thought balancing ability-granting would be an obvious move.

You said you knew the exact post where you got the ability whereas I wasn't told that my ability was associated with any particular post. This is relevant for a couple reasons. First, posts are where !!!!!!!s make action, so it led credence to the idea that the !!!!!!s were responsible. Second, I wasn't told that it was associated. So it seemed like you knew it came from !!!!!!!!!s whereas I didn't, which would fit with you getting your ability from !!!!!scum.

Or maybe there was an alternate explanation, so I wanted to let you deliver it.

/drunkpost

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V/LA this weekend.

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I think SP is scum. I feel pretty strongly about it.

I doubt that both Haylen and M=W are scum.

The voices are convincing me that Haylen is scum.

So I am less sure that M=W is scum.

But I still think SP is scum.

That is why I'm not voting M=W.

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Are you ever going to make an actual case on me?

My favorite lynch is SP. I find the light's vez scumhunting persuasive, though lynching Haylen is high-risk high-reward, but I'd probably support that as my second-favorite lynch.

I'd like M=W if not for that I don't think he's scum with Haylen.

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But he's not scum with Haylen. Near 0% chance. Rite?

So...

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Well, I was just gone all weekend except to pop in for that question whoever asked about voting M=W. If you think I've failed to pay attention to something, you should probably point it out.

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It's just the vibe I get from their interaction with one another. I don't think it's faked.

I suppose "near 0%" is an exaggeration.

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It doesn't make much sense that smoking/lighting drains the battery AND half of it is from scum...why wouldn't scum just always spam gibberish?

M=W being scum would make me feel so good... :/

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I would love M=W being scum because that would match my D1 feelings, etc. But I don't think he's scum with Haylen. This is old news.

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I'VE BEEN VOTING FOR AGES. AND POSTING CONSISTENTLY. LYNCH SP WITH ME. HE IS SCUM.

I'll help lynch M=W if it comes to it. It looks unavoidable at this point, since the Haylen wagon is gone and no one will lynch SP with me. But I'm not going to like it, because I don't think M=W is scum with Haylen.

This is all very old news btw. Just to be clear.

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I'm pretty sure Furcolow is town.

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A cosmic force is preventing SP from ever being town while I am in the game with him.

This game is not an exception.

SP is scum.

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Is that your special way of claiming scum?

Aside: people who have played with me know that I would've joined one of the wagons and made a big gross post with lots of reasons for THIS (whichever) player being scum, if I were scum. [/self-meta]

This applies to SP/CKD/Plum/maybe some other players too idk, but definitely those three.

Soooooooooo basically that is bizarre.

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No. I think I always manage to lose when you (being scum) are in the game with me, except for that one time.

Sometimes I am right about things before losing though.

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Why don't you lynch SP with me? Do you think he's town?

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I was talking to M=W but k.

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I am very annoyed that there are fully 3-4 lynches I would like better than this one. Extremely annoyed.

However, it sort of can't be helped.

Unvote; Vote: M=W

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Frankly, I hope I'm wrong, too.

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Protip: Seeing that you guys didn't want to lynch Haylen, you probably believe that she's a tracker, right? So it would probably make sense for you to listen to her first, right?

Oh wait.

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Haylen is lying. Too bad for her.

I targeted someone who can confirm that I targeted them.

She is probably scum who killed Socrates, hence her claim to have targeted him.

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Oh, wait, nevermind. She's positing that SHE was roleblocked (and not told about it) as a possibility. I thought she was arguing that I was somehow roleblocked to explain my lack of action, which seemed very silly to me.

So it's no longer 100% that she's lying scum, but I'd say it's still fairly likely, since her being town requires that we posit some unknowns about the set-up.

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It strikes me as odd that a town player would track one player for being sketchy scum while wanting to lynch someone else (especially when I'd already claimed a PR that was very confirmable...).

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1. It is correct that I targeted Furcolow.

I targeted him for 3 reasons. First, I think he's town. Second, he's a player that scum are very unlikely to kill, so what happened with Socrates was unlikely to happen to me again; I minimized the risk of targeting a dead player twice. Third, in spite of his bizarre way of presenting himself in-thread, his reads themselves are of some use when he's town.

2. Your explanation for not having at first received a PM makes sense to me. I would never make something up that quickly after my initial claim as scum.

3. "2" above annoys me, because your decision to target me makes no sense from a town perspective AFAICT.

4. Please address CKD's question, which is the same as the question implicit in "3."

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(1. Who the hell is Ojanen?)

2. If you thought scum would choose a player under less suspicion to submit the kill, why did you choose me -- a player under high suspicion?

If I'd have targeted a player who ended up dying twice consecutively, there'd be no way out of that regardless of whether you'd targeted me. Your targeting me is useless if I target town (because the town I targeted can confirm me on their own), or if I target a dead player (because it is indistinguishable from a kill). The only way it's useful AT ALL is if I target scum who decides to play dumb with being targeted, which only works in mylo/lylo and is a bit of a gambit.

Targeting me was not a good use of your ability. It sounds like you didn't think through your target choice very carefully.

3. I pushed M=W as scum most of the game, though, starting D1 and coming back to it later on (cross-supplying the lights I got for it D1) when I got depressed because I didn't know who was scum. (This I could see you missing as a replacement, but ye know.) I only got iffy on him because I didn't think he was scum with you.

4. You are mistaken. I argued that SP was scum WAY before that. Someone (pacman?) argued that I was lurking/not participating in the discussion, and I brought it up again, but it wasn't new information.

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@ Haylen --It's true that I haven't really given a reason for SP being scum, other than that he is. I understand that being frustrating, but. Well. Basically, I play with scumSP a lot, and I think this is scumSP. Since my scumreads were kinda mehmehmeh at the time, I thought that beat most other scumtells out there (vez/Haylen scum via Lights, but at risk of killing claimed PR; and M=W, who couldn't be scum with said player).

@ CKD -- Yes, I claimed Neighborizer yesterday...at first, I thought I'd found evidence that Haylen was lying about her ability (namely, she got post-specific info on when she got it, whereas I didn't), but it turned out that I'd been mistaken with regard to which day I got Neighborization on.

You also voted me right after that post IIRC, or you made another push for my lynch or something, so it's a little weird that you "missed" it. I thought reading it was why you thought I was scum (e.g. because you thought I was trying to save M=W and get poor Haylen or whatever).

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Before her edit, I thought she was 95% scum.

After her edit, I am unsure. For one, the edit was very quick after the initial post, so it's not like she had a long time to make something up. Also, the circumstances where a player would know that kind of detail are pretty esoteric, so even if she was just a quick thinker, it would be unusual that she'd go that far to save herself. Moreover, admitting error is itself kind of scummy, especially when you do it only AFTER it's revealed that the error makes you appear as likely scum, so it's unlikely that RENEGE RENEGE would be her urge so quickly after the error being revealed.

On the other hand, I still think her choice to target me was really dumb. The only case it helps is that it makes it slightly less likely that I am scum with Furc (because I did manage to target him with SOMETHING), even if it doesn't make it totally impossible (cuz I could be a scumdoc or whatever). I also think that scum are slightly more likely to make this kind of "dumb" error than town, because scum might stop at "target someone I say I think is scum" whereas town would think a bit more carefully.

Also, the lights have vez/haylenSkum, which may or may not be reliable, but is something to consider.

Edit: As I said in my prior post, I claimed because I thought I could catch her by providing the basis of my question. The whole scenario was that she claimed she got her "get ability if target targetted player" ability as of a certain post, I recognized that I hadn't gotten that kind of information, I asked her to confirm something about that with Vi, she posted several more times without the information, I followed up by pointing out that I'd gotten an ability without that kind of information and went ahead with the rest of it (cuz if it wasn't ALREADY obvious that I was a PR on the basis of my asking her to ask Vi esoteric questions about her ability, the follow-up made it even more obvious). (This is from memory btw.)

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...
...
...

... O.o

...

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Also, why didn't you tell Chrono to unvote me? Why single-out Plum and SP?

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Don't be silly, Haylen. You're smarter than that.

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More likely, the scum !!!!!! controls Nightkills and doesn't have communications with the team proper, so guessing a Nightkill would come into effect. That actually seems EXTREMELY plausible.

O_O

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I also got my ability midway through the game. It should be relatively clear that I'm not scum with Haylen IMO because of the claim circumstances yesterday.

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Yeah...the obvious explanation to a naive party (e.g. me) was that Haylen had a "get abilities of player you kill" ability or something similar. Plum's explanation shows a special imagination or ya know.

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@ pacman -- they already implied that, I think. If we identify who the !!!!!!! is, we get a prize.

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Your name starts with a-h.

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Your name starts with i-p.

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Your name starts with q-z

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Hmm. Socrates didn't get any kind of "Holy Righteous" ability by analogy, though, and I haven't been told that my alignment has acquired an adjective.

But that bit is plausible. Fits with the mod error, too.

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Regarding the identifications -- I think the mod indicated that that was caused by a "Holy Order." It sorta reminded me of the Orders from Valkyria Chronicles...which is sort of irrelevant, maybe, but that's how I interpreted it at the time.

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-_-

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I've been posting in our quicktopic...

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@ CKD -- Do you mean targeting Furco? If so, no.

Do you mean that I was a Neighbor? If so, no, because I didn't become a Neighbor until D2, and it was a bit into D2 IIRC.

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iece, did you crumb anywhere that you were going to do that?

This is what I was addressing.

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I was recently town against Furcoscum in The Brave and the Beautiful.

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You forgot that Haylen could be scum with Furco, since scum have daytalk, since there is no Night. I didn't see Furco online between those two times, though, and Furc hadn't posted in the private QT yet.

The rest is can agree with, though idk why you like Haylen's reasons for targeting me but w/e.

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Well, yeah, that's another possibility -- but he didn't forget that one.

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K, answered.

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I'm not typing in all caps in there.

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AGar's explanation isn't quite right. HAYLEN's inbox filled up, not Vi's.

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OK, I've sent a PM to Vi.

I had proxy'd my vote to CKD at that point.

We don't know 100% that Socrates got his ability from !!!!!!!!!!s, I don't think.

Why is AGar in your town club?

1. That line alone doesn't do much to convince me one way or the other.
2. It implies that she is scum with Furc, or that she tracked me successfully. Or she panicked and guessed, but that last is unlikely because her scumfriends wouldn't have missed that I'd claimed Neighborizer and let her make an error like that.

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Hmm. Why do you want me to do it first?

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Because this exercise is only useful to catch whoever does it second, and it would be nice to catch Haylen.

How about this -- I'll claim my format, but I'll categorically lie (i.e. about font color, or formatting, etc., rather than totally making shit up) about exactly 2-3 aspects of it (or whatever number you want). This way, we'll both be tested.

I'm recommending more than 1 aspect because the scum may have something with a similar format already from their !!! or whatever.

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You are mistaken. If I claim it, scumHaylen can just say YEP THAT IS WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE and get away with it.

If we do it my way, she has to ACTUALLY have the same stuff as me for it to work.

I'll send it to Vi before I post it.

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You know, you were the one who mentioned "formatting" originally. Dunno why you're acting like I'm the deviant here.

And yep, it gives scumIec a small number of outs; that's true.

I also said from the beginning that I wouldn't flat-out make shit up, so your comments/concerns on how I'll be sneaky about that or whatever are unfounded. Paraphrase rules will probably keep that from being useful, anyway. Or any of it but.

GOSH YOU ARE SO DRAMATIC.

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k

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Going to study a bit, but Vi sent me a PM saying that I had it from 1053.

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I just asked her for the post association before, so that's all I got back.

I just sent her a paraphrase now. I'll post it if she OK's it, or I'll scale it back if she says I am naughty.

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Vi seems to think this is slightly sleazy, but she's OK'd it:

It starts with a bit centered in caps in the middle with green font and tildes that implies our !!!!!!!!!s are doing something. Then it says I was given an ability by someone. Then the ability is explained in a quote box. The ability is italicized and in blue while the rest is normally written.

There's also a parenthetical clarification added at the end that lets me know that the ability resolves at the end of each day, since the quote box definition itself kind of implies that I would get a QT with my target instantaneously.

There are between 0 and 3 errors in the above. Haylen's turn. I'd like her to stipulate what the errors are in this description, if any.

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Confirming follow-up with Vi.

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The intended errors were that they were double dashes, not tildes; that the first text was black, not green; and that the ability text was black, not blue. She caught all of those.

Her extra details that I didn't try adding are also accurate.

I'm guessing that that last point is to indicate that the quoted thing doesn't specify a player or party being quoted? If so, that's accurate, too.

One thing worth adding is that I had already said that my ability was blue in my QT with Furc. It came up because he was making some speculation about "blue" roles (like Soc's), and I corrected him by saying that my ability wasn't blue.

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Maybe Soc got an ability D1 and assumed that town folk got abilities each day? Plus a negative track?

Though I'd assumed that he started out with his ability cuz his was blue and mine wasn't.

The weird thing is that vez acted like he KNEW that Soc had an ability IIRC. He was like U KNOW WHAT I MEAN.

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I'm still inclined to lynch SP atm btw, because I think he's scum with whoever the other 2-3 are.

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OK, I PM'd her.

idk, I haven't really looked back there in much detail to be honest. I can do it more after Tuesday; I have a big exam coming up. I think a reasonable person could come to Soc's conclusion that there is scum in CKD/Iec (and conclude CKDscum from my perspective) -- but the fact that CKD voted at such a pivotal moment with a proxy'd vote isn't something I would expect against a scumfriend. This is something I've said over and over, but ye know.

I do think that CKD's "case" on me yesterday was very crap (well, it wasn't even really a case), but the fact that M=W was town makes it less scummy than otherwise.

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a.) the following of my vote, b.) the buddying up (when I wasnt that towny), c.) the vote off of moth (but he shifted the blame to a proxy vote)

A. I had no reads I liked too much and trusted you.
B. I thought you were very towny.
C. Untrue. I unvoted before you did, because moth had just claimed some kind of PR or something and I unvoted to get it off of L-1. You unvoted after that, but then said you noticed something he'd done or something and reapplied pressure.

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Vote: SocioPath

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He flipped as a DARKENED Shadow Demon. Maybe that was because he'd been given some kind of PR (e.g. Tracker)?

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Yes.