Mafia on Holy Orders (Game Over!)

[Friend]

I knew you would say this. I am NOT the one that intimated that wagons are productive. In fact, I specifically said that I think such attitudes are bologna, and me demanding content from you is me calling you out on such bullshit.

Okay. I didn't get that impression from your post but that's fine - just a difference of opinion, I suppose.

Could you please attempt to articulate this impression more clearly? An important question to make such an articulation easier: What do you think a scum-VI would do differently?

Be less out-in-the-open. Use less AtE. Not say things like this:

I'm also not saying "i am not be scum this game", because that is pointless. You all don't know whether or not I am scum. I can try to convince you all through my play, but that has been failing so far.

Would you all rather me 1) stop taking the spotlight as a town, and potentially get mislynched through not defending myself as actively?
2) continue taking the spotlight, and posting like I am?

Not take such huge risks in the early game. Try to appease the town. Wagon aimlessly. Look at drmyshottyizsik's play here for a beautiful example of VIscum. Furc is not playing like that.

I never once said that Sebguer was scum.

I didn't say you did, but you sure acted like that quote he said was scummy. Otherwise, what were you trying to point out?

PREVIEW:

@Beefster: That was a fairly useless post. Just read to me like you wanted to look at the players with suspicion on them and throw down FoSes. That's bogus.

When you made that post, the bit you commented on, Ani had mentioned Furc's meta in general. He said "I'm lynching you because I've taken a look in several other games, and you have provided terrible reasoning in every game, and you act even more scummy than I DO." He made no mention of whether Furc had been Town, scum, or a mix in those several games from which the meta had been drawn. He implied no likeliness of Furc to be Town in consideration of his play, only that he consistently provided poor reasoning and acted scummy.

Furc has never been scum on MS. Therefore, ani had not seen his scum meta - in fact, he even later asked for it specifically.

Saying that you're supporting the wagon while also screaming 'but I'm not actually voting him!' screams distancing from something which you are actually actively pushing.

Sigh. I don't

really

support the wagon anymore, as I think we've gleaned enough from it. If it turned into a situation where we were ready to lynch Furcolow this early in the game, I would take a definitive stance against it.

@Socrates: I find that notion (of wanting to lynch Furc no matter what his alignment) scummy. I'm not misinterpreting his intentions.

[Plum]

Oh, so you don't support the Furc wagon, officially?

Good to know.

In any case, Soc is right. Whether or not Furc's even been scum here, his point was not that he had a distinct Townread on Furc and wanted to lynch him. The point was that Ani wanted to lynch him regardless of alignment. He certainly had intimated no specific read on Furc at that point (and if Furc's only been Town, not deviating from a meta of providing poor reasoning and acting scummy wouldn't be an indication that he's Town, just that he's still Furc with certain tendencies which may be null in Furc's play).

[Furcolow]

It probably was me. I got a 29 on it.
I know that isn't amazing, but it is definitely high enough to not warrant an attack on my intelligence.
If that's how you meant the word, touche. I am all ears as to what would be a good option for the town this game, and wish you would have provided one when you were highlighting that aspect of how you meant the word in relation to my play.

[Plum]

My suggestion, as I think my original statements implied, included not throwing out WIFOM-generating statements such as 'I've never been lynched as scum' at the Town; it's generally distracting and confusing, more than enough to outweigh any reactions you think you're going to get out of it. Also good options for Town would probably include not wasting time getting people talking about a three-paragraph policy.

Incidentally, you never answered my question re: that policy:

Town Cohesion will come through people waking up and performing as a collective as opposed to subjective. WE should pressure together, tunnel together, FoS together, and lynch together. I want not one to be held accountable, but all. This will root out scum if we do it, mark my words.

How?

[Friend]

Okay, maybe I misinterpreted ani slightly. Still, though, as I said, wanting to lynch Furc regardless of alignment I find scummy.

[Furcolow]

My suggestion, as I think my original statements implied, included not throwing out WIFOM-generating statements such as 'I've never been lynched as scum' at the Town; it's generally distracting and confusing, more than enough to outweigh any reactions you think you're going to get out of it. Also good options for Town would probably include not wasting time getting people talking about a three-paragraph policy.

Incidentally, you never answered my question re: that policy:

Town Cohesion will come through people waking up and performing as a collective as opposed to subjective. WE should pressure together, tunnel together, FoS together, and lynch together. I want not one to be held accountable, but all. This will root out scum if we do it, mark my words.

How?

Pressuring people as a collective, not focusing on little town fights like people have been doing. Let's take turns picking someone to pressure.

[Friend]

Who would you like to pressure, Furcolow?

I believe streamlined discussion like Furcolow is suggesting is ineffective; mafia doesn't boil down to a formula where you can pressure people one at a time.

[Beefster]

Of course my last post wasn't very useful. My brain was fried from school and it still is.

Furcolow throws up a few more red flags than Friend, but it looked like they could have been playing on each other earlier.
I wanted to vote Furcolow, but I want to see the vote count first so I don't hammer or whatever. I saw quite a few votes on him when I read the 5 pages. I think I'm actually fine, but either way, I'm wondering about this battery-powered deadline thing.

[Locke Lamora]

Unvote; Vote: Beefster

That post screams of posting just for the sake of posting.

[Friend]

You have 5 pages to read. It's not that hard to formulate an opinion and say it rather than say "Hm let me see who has the most votes on them and I'll say I'm suspicious of them too."

unvote, vote: Beefster

[Friend]

Speaking of posting for the sake of posting, Locke...do you have anything to say other than that, considering you haven't commented on the events of the last 5 pages either?

[Locke Lamora]

Ani is Ani. Furcolow is bizarre and spouting a lot of nonsense, but I don't think he's scum.

[Beefster]

I

did

formulate an opinion. I looked at Furcolow from two angles and decided that there's a decent chance he's scum.
6 pages gained in 24 hours is a pain. I'm usually on top of things enough that I only have to read 1 page or less at a time unless I'm replacing in. Any more than that, and I stop caring and therefore skim.

[Iecerint]

I like the burgeoning Beefster wagon better than my RVS SP vote.

Unvote; Vote: Beefster

.

Different reason, though. First, the claim that they're "playing on one another" (positing 2 scum) looks like an attempt to tie someone to a scumfriend more than a reasoned analysis. Second, the worry about hammering looks faked; I don't think Furco has more than a handful of votes, and this is a Large game. Third, I think the defensiveness about his prior post that begins that one ("Of course my last post wasn't very useful") leans scummy.

[Wraith]

@#$! forgot to check this for starting. Reading through, be right back.

[Furcolow]

Who would you like to pressure, Furcolow?

I believe streamlined discussion like Furcolow is suggesting is ineffective; mafia doesn't boil down to a formula where you can pressure people one at a time.

I'm voting locke lamora, and for the sake of not being even more wishy washy than I have been and flip flopping on who I'm voting, I'm going to keep it there. Also because I am pretty lazy. It doesn't matter who we pressure after me, just as long as the town doesn't mislynch me this time. I know that is not good for us.

[Furcolow]

10$ says wraith votes for me because he "finds me a good lynch" regardless of his alignment, simply because he is going to ride a bandwagon.

[pacman281292]

Dammit. 7 pages of discussion on 24 hours.
Sorry for not posting, busy @ university. No time to check.

*rereads*

Rereading, I find the whole "lynch Furcolow FTW" thing on page 2-3 just stupid. It's based on meta (a very stupid meta), so it makes no sense.
Many of the reactions there are just ridiculous. Will need to ISO some players in order to asess those actions adequately. Some of them might be scumtells, and many people are just trying to pull up the VI flag in order to protect themselves. Some people are even trying to just pull out scumbuddying this early!

What Fur said on page 4 about policy lynching has some basic logic sense, but has a main problem: it might involve lynching out a pro-town, which is IMO a higher cost than just a little bit of clean-up in thread (not to say Fur has contributed himself to the cluttering itself a lot...). If we wind up lynching scum, it would be awesome, but in order to pick up a scum we might need some scumhunting directed at those VIs before just hurrying and policy-lynching at total random.
If what you wanted was to policy speedlynch, I'm sorry but you're FAIL.
Fur has just tried to defend himself out of meta, too. I'm gonna give him a closer ISO review now. On the meanwhile,

FoS: Furcolow

Animorph, vezok and Friend also seem to be just filling the thread with one-liners where they just attack everyone recklessly. They are going to my ISO check.

Finally, while I head for the ISOs (whose results I'll try to post today, but if I can't I will do them tomorrow),

@Mod: Votecount please?

I'm working on it right now, as it turns out. ~Vi

[Wraith]

Furcolow:

is naturally a very scummy player. At the moment I don't find him particularly anti-town, but I think he's dangerous in LyLo. If this same attitude continues to a future day and we haven't found much scum yet, I think he'd make a good Vig kill, just to be safe. But I don't think he's the right D1 lynch. In addition, I don't think pressuring Furcolow is several votes will work to force a scumslip, as he rarely needs pressure to seem scummy.

Friend:

In every game I've played here so far, there has a been a particularly zealous scumhunter. So far, Friend is that person here. I get a slightly pro-town feel on him ATM, but his voting patterns are erratic - first he has a good case on Furcolow, then he suddenly starts defending Furcolow against ani and vezo, and now he has suddenly jumped ship to attempt a Beefster wagon.

Vezo:

Red flags are appearing to me when I read the four posts of vezo. He's attacked Furcolow in all four of them for poor reasons or little reason at all.

Vote: vezokpiraka

Beefster:

There is no reason a Beefster wagon should be forming at this point unless it's to pressure him into a possible scumslip. His excuses seem legitimate and he has made four posts. However I agree that he needs to contribute some more, as his last posts haven't been too meaty.

Ani:

Ani also raises some red flags. He has been tunneling Furcolow since the start of the game, even attempting a policy lynch during RVS. IMO he could be scum attempting to mask a mislynch with a policy lynch. Beyond that, the only evidence to Furcolow's scumminess he provides is meta, but I believe meta in Furc's case is a null-tell because he is always scummy.

FoS: Animorph

Icerint:

Some red flags due to attacks on Furcolow based purely on meta, then suddenly switches to a Beefster wagon.

FoS: Icerint

My opinions on scumteas:

-Icerint/Ani: both attempted to push a Furcolow lynch based on meta.
-Icerint/Friend: less likely, this is only here due to the Beefster wagon attempt after both have attacked Furcolow

I also think that we should entertain the possibility that there could be two mafias in this game, considering the theme and the size.

Preview Edit:

You owe quite a few $10, Furcolow.

[Wraith]

Note to add to scumteam stuff:

I believe Vezok can be interchangeable into the Icerint/Ani team. Also, I'll change a couple things.

Unvote

FoS: Vezok

Vote: Animorph

[Furcolow]

Furcolow: is naturally a very scummy player. At the moment I don't find him particularly anti-town, but I think he's dangerous in LyLo. If this same attitude continues to a future day and we haven't found much scum yet, I think he'd make a good Vig kill, just to be safe. But I don't think he's the right D1 lynch. In addition, I don't think pressuring Furcolow is several votes will work to force a scumslip, as he rarely needs pressure to seem scummy

Bullshit. I am amazing in LyLo. It is idiots like Animorpher/Kunkstar7 that prevent me from winning. If I had been alive with VP Baltar and Ellibereth we would have fucking won, you can bet your money on that. I don't know, though, I completely fooled Ellibereth in lylo in a marathon game one time. Ask him about it.

[Furcolow]

I'm not saying my town play is good, but I am good at targeting scum with my night actions.

[Furcolow]

I am very weak at scumhunting, because I do not trust my first instinct.

[Wraith]

Furcolow: is naturally a very scummy player. At the moment I don't find him particularly anti-town, but I think he's dangerous in LyLo. If this same attitude continues to a future day and we haven't found much scum yet, I think he'd make a good Vig kill, just to be safe. But I don't think he's the right D1 lynch. In addition, I don't think pressuring Furcolow is several votes will work to force a scumslip, as he rarely needs pressure to seem scummy

Bullshit. I am amazing in LyLo. It is idiots like Animorpher/Kunkstar7 that prevent me from winning. If I had been alive with VP Baltar and Ellibereth we would have fucking won, you can bet your money on that. I don't know, though, I completely fooled Ellibereth in lylo in a marathon game one time. Ask him about it.

I meant you're dangerous in LyLo because you're a very scummy player, and therefore more likely to attract votes from an actual scumbag.

[Furcolow]

Then vote people who vote me