Mafia 1010 - Perpetual MyLo - Game Over

[Shadow Dancer]

Shadow, shut the fuck up. Exi quitting had NOTHING to do with me quitting. I just realized how far behind I was and told the mod it might be worth it to go ahead and replace me. He didn't do that, so if I'm here, you're all going to have to realize that I just started a new school and will be too busy to go catch up on 19 pages.

Calm down, you suggeted that coherence yourself:

I asked the mod to replace me when Exilon texted me and asked me to ask the mod to replace him, and for some reason I wasn't replaced.

But I am aware of the fact that temporal correlation does not atomatically suggest causality. I just thought you had a reason to also bring up ex's replacment request.

[Shadow Dancer]

EBWODP:
This is a highlight. You really

accept

no given so far as good reason? You disagree with - ?? - nothing?? The funnny thing is - this is consistent with what you earlier said (scummy because of "overjustification") - but still just another indication for the sad fact that one cannot take you and what you say seriously at all

[Shadow Dancer]

EBWODP:
This is a highlight. You really

accept no reason

given so far as good reason? You disagree with - ?? - nothing?? The funnny thing is - this is consistent with what you earlier said (scummy because of "overjustification") - but still just another indication for the sad fact that one cannot take you and what you say seriously at all

[xRECKONERx]

lol

[DavidParker]

huge useless multi-quote post = scum. Lynch SD already.

Also, wicked are you in my head??? AFter Thief's last couple posts I was about to make a case on him, or at least just claim he was another scum without making a case because I'm lazy. SD scum today, Thief scum tomorrow.

[DavidParker]

Wicked you are really creeping me out with your posts btw... I literally had a post on Thief written, and then before posting it showed your more recent post that was written while I was writing my post...

[xRECKONERx]

Vote: DavidParker

[animorpherv1]

huge useless multi-quote post = scum. Lynch SD already.

This town is filled to the brim with idiots.

SO MANY IDIOT SCUMS, SO LITTLE TIME!

vote:DavidParker

FoS: Shadow Dancer, mole

[Wickedestjr]

So your case is combination of fluff, misreading, misrepresenting and pretense, cobbled together by an absense of any logic and some obvious ill will? Oh dear, you can be thankfull that I had really solid town read on nopoint...

No. That isn't the whole case. You are misrepresenting me.

Well, I have another game to catch up and little time, so I'll just answer your question by now:

Shadow Dancer, I asked you earlier but you never answered: Have you ever played with Exilon before? If so, what was his allignment?

No, I never played with ex before.
You seem very insistent on that particular question which makes me believe you have a point to make - so: What is it?

I had a theory that on page 2 you were calling him and his arguments stupid, because you knew he would overreact.

[Wickedestjr]

First of all, overjustification? I've never heard of that scumtell before. It's always better to give too much reasoning than too little. Of course, unless you're trying to say that he's reaching. If that was the case, then you had better rip apart his logic as opposed to saying "he gave too much justification".

A random vote doesn't need extra reasoning. Look at the post I am accusing of having overjustification:

Still, making obviously idiotic suggestions

deserves being punished by the first waggon! That also allows me to bypass RVS, there're still no dice available, any way...

VOTE: xRx

The bolded portion of this post was completely unneccessary and allows him to backpedal if questioned on the vote. It is very obvious that the bolded portion was written in case he was attacked for the vote. It was written to show that he wasn't very confident in his vote. Town shouldn't have either of those motivations. Personally I would feel no pressure from a vote like that.

This is a bit of a misrep. He said a real lynch THREAT, as in... forming a wagon. He didn't actually suggest that we lynch somone.

There's no misrep. Why would somebody feel threatened by a bandwagon if they knew they weren't going to get lynched and town would no-lynch? They wouldn't.

Um... what? Do explain how wagoning suspicious players then deciding whether to lynch them or not based on their responses is not how 90% of mafia games function.

Shadow Dancer's suggestion was to wagon all the lurkers and see what they see in defense. Two problems with this. 1. What are they supposed to defend against? A point that they are lurking? Lurking isn't a scumtell, and they can easily make up an excuse if they don't want their real motivation revealed.
2. It is a waste of time. At the time of the suggestion there were many lurkers. Spending time on the lurkers instead of the scummy players who have been posting is a bad idea. Especially when the lurkers have nothing to defend against. Keep in mind Shadow Dancer was at L-2 when he made the suggestion so he could have just wanted to divert the attention from him to somebody else.

Opportunistic vote... on scum?

A vote doesn't need to be on town to be opportunistic.

If SD was an alternative wagon to Lowell, who is scum... Don't you think that his wagon was SCUM DRIVEN?

No. I think more scum were supporting the Lowell lynch than the SD lynch.

And that scum wouldn't be stupid enough to drive a wagon on one of their fellow scum?

This is WIFOM, but I think that all the scum apart from Lowell voted for Lowell. The Shadow Dancer bandwagon is no different.

Labelling your last points 1,2,3,4,5.
1) How is adding a lot of justification to votes scummy?
2) Explained.
3) This can be said of a lot of people.
4) His important votes, the ones that significantly pushed a lynch, or those that significantly took away from one, were just fine in my book. He voted to lynch a generally scummy townie, he didn't try to hold up the Lowell bandwagon the first time it was formed, and he hammered scum.
5) Fair enough.

1) I explain this in this post.
2) I explain this in this post.
3) That can be said of four of the players in this game. Two of which are probably scum. Unlike three of those players, he's been active for most of the game.
4) Translation: His good votes were good. Only three of his votes made sense as town. The rest were suspicious.

[Wickedestjr]

Alright, so here's the deal: I asked the mod to replace me when Exilon texted me and asked me to ask the mod to replace him, and for some reason I wasn't replaced.
I can keep on playing, but at this point I don't see me having the time to go back and catch up on everything, so someone's going to have to summarize or the mod will have to replace me.

Where did you stop following from?

[Shadow Dancer]

Sorry, wicked, but as long as your ignorance is as

huge

as this, I think we shoouldn't talk any more.
You keep repeating yourself: Realize that that does not help any of your points becoming actually viable. Most of your points are just plain ridiculous, fluff without any justification, quites some of them are contradicting common sense

and

themselves. That you dare to call me out for contradictions that

you

produced

yourself

just shows how little you have thought this through. In that you are exactly like Exilon. On that ground your obvious sympathy for Ex and your almost equally obvious antipathy against me are no wonder. However: You should realize that your personal preferences are one of the most damn awful foundations to base any serious mafia playing on.

Seriously: All this is just an huge uneccessary diversion from serious scum hunting. You definitely should stop your narrow minded tunneling and look for some

real

suspects.

[Wickedestjr]

Rena, why are you responding to my case against Shadow Dancer? First of all, that's a case for Shadow Dancer to respond to. Second of all, you said you suspected Shadow Dancer. Thirdly, you said you thought I was town. I'll respond to your post, but I don't understand the town motivation.

When we lynch townies, the scum kill one of their own. Meaning that if one of mole/Shadow Dancer is scum and the other is town and we hit the town one, then they'll just kill the scum one, and we have to do this all over again. So, if I see parts of your case that I don't agree with, I'm going to attack them, regardless of whether I agree with your target or not.

Why did you have to defend the case before Shadow Dancer?

I'll explain the read thing tomorrow.

...

Nothing I can do about gut or process of elimination, though. I'll take a crack at your destructor case. Mind linking me since I already haev a whole lot on my to-do list?

I give my thoughts on destructor here.

[Shadow Dancer]

I can see a lot of potential buddying, bussing and all kind of strange interactions between Thief, DP and Mole.
I'll try to untangle this... We really should have lynched DP D1. The whole Quoi waggon was just really really bad and there are hardly any connections I can draw from it...
However, I think there was a hole lot of scum on the Quoi waggon. And by that I mean at least four (we already have two confirmed so far). I'll try to undersatdn the dynamics behind it.

@wicked: As food for thought: You mentioned Thief as your other top suspect - what is about him?

As mentioned, Thief's attitude towards DP seems really strenge and inconsistent to me:

He reasons for his waggon hop on lowell with kind of a soft defense of DP:

I am Thief and I approve of this wagon.

Vote: Lowell

Mainly because out of the lurkers I like DavidParker better.

No further explanation why he "likes DP better".

D2 he suddenly opens with the unambiguous indication that he thinks DP is scum:

ITT: DavidParker put scum at L-1, scumbuddy #1 (Reck) jumped off as if to appear to be preventing a quickhammer.

Again no reason for his change in opinion at all.

Only one post later DP appears in his "town" list:

Not much to say, this game should be wrapped up soon:

TOWN:
Magna
DP
[...]

Then he enters D3 with this jewel:

They're all lined up in a nice little row for us now David. Let's knock 'em down.

Buddying? Blatant scum communication? At least he seems very sure that DP is the same allignment as he is. Or rather: He is suggestive of just that.

@Thief: What is your opinion about DP and how did it develope during the course of the game?

[Shadow Dancer]

Reading the second quote again, it seems a bit ambiguous, but I guess what Thief actually means that Reck is lowell's (?) scum buddy.
Still: Thief seems really convinced that DP is town. And I'd really like to know why.

[DavidParker]

How is that last quote not something a scum would say to someone who is town? Trust me, I'm plenty willing to lynch Thief after you.

[Wickedestjr]

Overjustification? Backpedal? What? I hope you are not as narrown minded to expect me to 1.) cathegorically do a totally unjustified random vote first & 2.) do not expect me to stick to a really early vote, made when hardly any one had posted, and not change it (i.e. backpedal) at all?
Besides that: You totally overlook the quite high level in playfullness in the initial slugfest between me and xRx.

1.) Why did you need to add so much justification to your random vote? You could have simply said:

Still, making obviously idiotic suggestions deserves being punished by the first waggon!

That also allows me to bypass RVS, there're still no dice available, any way...

Vote: xRx

Of course a little justification is good, but you went overboard.

2.) That's not what I'm saying at all. It is completely normal for a person's vote to change after the RVS, but there is no reason for you to make it obvious that you are going to change it. Is there?

You have not the slightest idea about the psychology of a mafia game, have you?! How do you suppose we go scum hunting if we cannot effectively pressure them because we won't hammer them, ay way?

Lynch threat implies that they will have a chance of getting lynched. There is no chance of people getting lynched if the town has planned to go no-lynch. I am perfectly aware of how this game works, but I know that I wouldn't feel threatened by a bandwagon if I knew the town was just going to no-lynch anyway.

Besides your obvious missing sense of humour, which makes me wanna laugh - hope you realize at least that there is a sigificant difference between seeming and being. That being said: Yeeehaaa! Success!

So, what you're saying is that you were pretending to be confident?

Useless fluff from wicked.

Not really. Also, this doesn't defend my point or prove anything.

One might think reading and understanding the read is not exactly rocket science You are taking something and turn it inot the exact opposite.

This is why you should be thankful that I had such a strong town read of nopoint.

It requires a tremendous amount of either foolishness or ill will to do this.
Before I forget my point - but I have to warn you, it's really kindergarden-niveau: I accused scum of trying to prevent, not to initiate strategy debates - more than one time. It is totally unitelligible how you could have possibly missed that...

Sorry. I misread that. But, your response brings up another point which I'll add to the list regarding why you are scum: Threatening me so that I'll retract the points I brought up against you. Specifically the bolded portion: It is obvious that you are trying to make me retract my points by telling me they appear suspicious.

Even if we for one moment assume that I was really 100% sure about xRx: There are 5 scum in the game in we gotta catch 3 of them. Having one is not the end of everything at all.

The opportunistic point still stands.

Justification (for anything) = bad
And it wasn't a bad suggestion at all. But maybe you wann argue 'bout that. I that case: Please come up with something at least halfway substantiated, otherwise I won't even mind noticing you any more.

I explain this in my response to Rena.

Core assertion originally was: Aiming for LyLo instead of MyLo improves town chances of victory by about 42%. Quite a good reason to talk about that matter, eh? However, that discussion has been modkilled once and for all, so do not even attempt to reinvoke it!

You are the one that has been reinvoking this. After we decided we weren't no-lynching, you continued to mention how unlikely it was for us to win. What was the point?

scum hunting = baaaaad. We quickly and steadily reach subterranean levels of argunmentation, lol.

Again, see my response to Rena where I explain why I think the suggestion is bad.

Besides not giving any conclusive evidence for this assertion in your whole gigantically bloated WoT - pretty much the epitome of uselessness - the points you brought up so far make me doubt your qualification to even decide what is useful and what not.

I am shocked that you don't like the points against you.

1: It was a justified vote . thus not random. 2: You are complaining about a contradiction that you yourself propose.

1: Whatever. The point is, the vote was bad because of all the justification. 2: What?

Repeating yourself more... Seriously, every one has an opinion, but if you've got nothing to back yoursup then JSTFU. It's in your best interest to not make a fool of yourself.

I have got something to back up my point. Here's what happened: Lowell cast a bandwagon vote on you. brianj votes Lowell. You ask Lowell about his vote (this shows that you were aware of the vote). Then, DavidParker also votes Lowell. A page later you decide to vote Lowell because of his bandwagon vote for you. The vote looks opportunistic because you didn't find Lowell's action voteworthy until another person joined the bandwagon.

So you do not accept voting for a lurker as a valid reason. Assuming wrong premises does not validate your point any further. But I also remeber that you found votes suspicious when they were justified. From that queer point of view at least the "no real problem with that" part makes sense and seem consistent.

First of all, you didn't give your reason for voting. You simply agreed with Thief. The problem I have with this is that it doesn't tell us exactly what points you agree with and gives you room to make things up.
Second of all, this has nothing to do with my point earlier that you overjustified your vote. Saying why you are voting a person isn't the same as justifying the vote.

I voted him because he is and was but a useless weirdo.

If that's the case, then why did you wait until he voted for you?

That is of course a major indication of my guilt beyond all doubt

It wasn't supposed to be.

This is a highlight. You really exept no given so far as good reason? You disagree with - ?? - nothing?? The funnny thing is - this is consistent with what you earlier said (scummy because of "overjustification") - but still just another indication for the sad fact that one cannot take you and what you say seriously at all

Hmm... You're right. You didn't give reasons. I thought you had. I don't understand how it has anything to do with the overjustification point.

Results of my votes so far: One dead scum, no mislynch - objectively speaking my votes were really good for the most part - and you fail to provide any convincing counter-argument.

The point I am bringing up isn't regarding who you voted, but why you voted them. Also, no, your votes weren't really good.

You thing by suggesting this bogus a third time it will magically turn into a valid point, right?

I was summarizing the points in my case. I obviously wasn't expecting you to defend it a third time.

Which is true, which you could easily check - if that is not beyond your perceptivity... Other than that - what was your point here?

I am not agreeing or disagreeing with your theory. The point is that several times you continued to bring up how unlikely it was for town to win. There is no reason for you to be repeating that.

[Wickedestjr]

@xRx, Molestargazer, and Animorph - Can you guys please switch your votes to Shadow Dancer? DavidParker is town.

DavidParker, who do you think is the third scum?

[Wickedestjr]

Wicked you are really creeping me out with your posts btw... I literally had a post on Thief written, and then before posting it showed your more recent post that was written while I was writing my post...

[Shadow Dancer]

@wicked: Seriously, what makes you think of all players DP is town?! And if ":D" is really all you have to say to a blatant buddying attempt by a player who so far only gave some unsubstantial comments and lots of opportunistic fluff, then I don't know if you even know the meaning of "scum hunting".

Funny part is that it almost seems like you want to convince

me

I am scum, which is pardoxal, you should really try to convince

others

.

If you really want me to "defend" against any of your points, please: Make a priority list and let's dissolve them one after the other, in just another oversized WOT every point that any of us could possiblymake is lost. What is your

core

point against me?

[Shadow Dancer]

Also you have been ignoring the mole case so far. Instead you ask him for his vote on me. Are you really so fixed on havin me lynched that you are willing to ignore everything else around you? That is seriously bad attitude. You know why? Because then you have dedicated yourself to a mislynch and no plan B. And that'd seriously be the end of this town.

[xRECKONERx]

No, Wicked, I can't.
DavidParker is a fuckwad.

[Shadow Dancer]

Upon rereading mole he

really

looks bad. His whole defense of Lowell is seriously as bad as Lowell's self defense. I do not understand why he puts so much effort into defending Lowell. He negelcts scum hunting and is argumenting really hard against magna who is pressing the lowell case - but his whole defense is just a huge strawman, totally ignoring magna's case and bringing up some indignificant meta. And while all that looks like a chainsaw defense he is not even seriously suspecting magna to be scum, as it seems.

[Shadow Dancer]

Also moles attacks on nopoint are almost exclusively fluff. I seriously think he is the best lynch for today.

[Shadow Dancer]

And then there's his hypocrisy, pointing out my and no points "aggression" and how he does not like it (though he does not even consider it a scumtell, so more fluffing to make pseudo-points), while there is prdominant element of aggression and sarcasm in his own posts...