/Invitational 11: Pick your Poison 5 (Game Over)

[Elmo]

I think the value of DGB's gambit is the difference between the value of the assassin and the janitor; DGB, you've said repeatedly that the janitor's very weak - why is that, and why didn't you contribute your analysis on Day 0?

Zito, I give up.

Hoopla, usually pretty collected and thoughtful in her posts has become more and more incoherent.

I think this is where I end up, and I'm not sure what it means of her alignment. Interesting wagon, but I would really have expected HooplaScum to be suaver than this (e.g. #484 is pretty cringe-worthy if it's a ploy)... but I don't really want to unvote someone for playing bad, and this close to (bankable) deadline, we probably need to get our lynch on?

This VasudeVa business doesn't look to be built on much, as far as I can see, although Amished's stance appears to suck. KMD is doing not a great deal, I could probably go with him dying still - mith, why did you think his behaviour was somewhat townish?

[Amished]

I've played 1 (maybe 2?) games with VV and I've known him to essentially be a wagon-y VI. I know it's not really based on anything he's done in game; but he's a prime target for small semantics arguments to lure over townies that are trying to move the game forward or anything; and scum to force a mislynch. When people are using wiki-tells against him (OMGUS/AtE come to mind) that really makes me suspect and I have no problem defending him.

The game that I was most sure of his alignment (NY111) was later on when multiple scum flips all attacked him pretty much throughout the game. The attacks remind me of the way he was attacked but I've only read through that game once and I could be off.

If people could explain why they feel the AtE or whatever else is scummy instead of saying "R U 4 REELZ YO?" (exaggerated) I might not have spoken up; but he's just too easy the way it's going right now.

[ekiM]

Ekim, do you generally lurk as town? As scum?

I generally lurk as either when I can't think of anything useful to say. If anything I'd say I lurk more as town, as I find it quite easy to fabricate townie-looking things to say as scum, and quite hard to do useful "behavioral" scumhunting as town, especially early on.

Also I've just attended a funeral and am working quit hard to finish my MSc so my time has been limited. I'm still going to try to put the time in and play, but I find it difficult to find something worth saying in a large game. Hopefully this will improve.

Do you have opinions on anyone, including the person you're voting (Hoopla)?

I have several town reads that I don't think it'd be useful to share.

I've been thinking about it and I don't think Hoopla's performance is coming from scum. I've been in a game with her with her as town and me as scum and she melted down when backed into a corner in a fairly similar way. That was at the end of a game, but it's a similar style of thing. So Hoopla acting like this as town isn't out of character. She said she's never used AtE as scum, and her meltdown here would be a pretty lame way to start. If I've been fooled then I'll feel a bit silly after the game, but I don't think I have.Therefore:
UNVOTE: Hoopla

In terms of current wagons and suspects.

I don't like the Hoopla wagon for the above reasons.
Vasudeva is playing... badly and drawing attention for it. Feels like such an easy target. I've seen similar things for him in another game. Bah, I hate wagons on players with terrible style generally, for their style. How can you evaluate whether it's coming from scum? I don't know. Feels more townie.
I think the possible slip on zoraster is decent and (rare D1) concrete evidence---he seems to assume she's town when explaining why she's scum.

VOTE: zoraster

[ekiM]

Hey Tajo, do you remember from the previous invitational where early on I said jokingly that probably one of the five lurkers was scum and got attacked hard for it? What was your opinion on that?

[DrippingGoofball]

If people could explain why they feel the AtE...

AtE is a rubbish tell on the accused, and a small scumtell on the accuser(s).

[DrippingGoofball]

....and why didn't you contribute your analysis on Day 0?

I was in New Hampshire without internet access for a whole week.

[DrippingGoofball]

I think the possible slip on zoraster is decent and (rare D1) concrete evidence---he seems to assume she's town when explaining why she's scum.

VOTE: zoraster

ZOMG my dreams are coming true

A zoraster wagon is forming

Zoraster wagon > VV wagon

VOTE: zoraster

[Elmo]

I know it's not really based on anything he's done in game;

That's kind of my problem. I would be much happier if you went through what he's done and explained why he would do it as town; that is, if you think he's town, go and defend him.

I was in New Hampshire without internet access for a whole week.

This is a good reason! Can we now have your views on the janitor role?

Time to sheep ekiM, UNVOTE: Hoopla, VOTE: zoraster

[Kmd4390]

Guys, I might be able to catch up tomorrow. Actually got a day off so if I wake up early, I can catch up on my games before I go do something with my girlfriend.

[Patrick]

Votecount

Hoopla (5) -- Papa Zito, Amished, mith, VasudeVa, Plumegranate
VasudeVa (4) -- populartajo, Herodotus, Seraphim, SpyreX
zoraster (5) -- Kmd4390, ooba, ekiM, DrippingGoofball, Elmo
Papa Zito (2) -- Zorblag, Rhinox
Herodotus (1) -- Hoopla
Kmd4390 (1) -- Ellibereth
DrippingGoofball (1) -- zoraster

Not Voting: SaintKerrigan

With 20 alive, 11 votes will be needed to lynch. Deadline: 25th of August, at 12:30 am US Central Time.

[DrippingGoofball]

I was in New Hampshire without internet access for a whole week.

This is a good reason! Can we now have your views on the janitor role?

It's the least inconvenient to us; contrary to what people are suggesting, there is no need to know the alignment of the lynchee for wagon analysis. Furthermore, if the scum fakeclaims anything, chances are great that they'll be caught anyway.

[Seraphim]

Despite Amished's chainsaw defense of VV, I am not going to back down on him unless deadline hits and there's not enough support for his lynch. VI or not, his play strikes me as scum. I might get behind a zoraster lynch but I'm a little wary of a Hoopla lynch ATM simply because of how hard VV is pushing her lynch, though her play has definitely been...questionable. In other words, don't be surprised if I jump wagons to get a lynch going at deadline.

If people could explain why they feel the AtE or whatever else is scummy instead of saying "R U 4 REELZ YO?" (exaggerated) I might not have spoken up; but he's just too easy the way it's going right now.

It's not a scumtell, but it is a logical fallacy and is by no means an actual defense. I'm saying that this post and this post, rather than actually trying to address my points, he tries to dismiss them by saying that the points are "lazy bandwagoning".

[quote="VV]I did not accuse you of lazy bandwagoning, I'm accusing your

case

as a lazy bandwagoning case.[/quote]You haven't proven for one second that my case is "lazy" and it looks like you're trying to add the word "case" to somehow differentiate your attack on my play and your play.

You claim you're bandwagoning to get town responses from people and I don't believe that for a second. You're bandwagoning to bandwagon, to try and get people lynched based on who has the most popular wagon.

Herod, possibly Seraph.

Oh, so I'M scum now? Why would that ever be?

[SaintKerrigan]

Why am I not surprised that a VV wagon has formed?

Haven't gotten to that reading yet, but I read stuff after my intro post and just based on that it sounds to me like the VV wagon = mislynch munchies for hungry scum. Seraphim's description of it in particular looked scummy to me. I'll get into more detail about why that is once I'm caught up, but Seraphim's going to get a good hard look from me.

Was that two cents' worth? Mmkay.

*dives back into the water*

[mith]

Elmo: I don't think his

behaviour

has been townish. He asked a question (in 491) that I don't see scum asking in that situation (with at least one possible exception, which is why I've been waiting to see his next few posts before explaining further).

Pretty meh on the zoraster "slip" being a slip, and less suspicious of him at the moment simply because of the timing of the wagon. His day 1 postings have felt more genuine (aggravation at both DGB and Papa Zito), in contrast to his day 0 postings (which felt a bit like he was sheeping behind Troll).

Hoopla needs to die. I'm sure this is bias on my part because I think she's scum, but the last several pages have reeked of scum trying to push things away from her/town getting cold feet, while she twiddles her thumbs and plays lurker.

I'd like everyone, if they haven't already, to express a preference between the three leading wagons. Go. (Hoopla>>>zoraster>VasudeVa)

[mith]

(EBWOP: Behaviour meaning "his almost complete lack of participation in the game"; obviously him asking a question is a part of his overall behaviour.)

[ooba]

V\LA for 2 days

[Seraphim]

At the moment,

VasudeVa>>zoraster>>Hoopla

Though to be fair, I'm not terribly adverse to any of them.

[Elmo]

contrary to what people are suggesting, there is no need to know the alignment of the lynchee for wagon analysis.

That would seem to depend a lot on how the analysis was performed; when a bunch of people say it would make it harder or impossible for

them

, I'm inclined to believe them. This is what I meant when I said it varied by playstyle - you're only a small fraction of the living players.

VI or not, his play strikes me as scum.

Assuming he's playing bad, you are differentiating between the two how? (I don't think his play is that bad, really.)

For what it's worth, if he flipped town, I could understand someone being suspicious of you; I wouldn't agree, but it's far from unreasonable. The crux is whether your reasons are legitimate. I would agree with him that being that wagon-y Day 1 is fine, I don't see how describing your attack as "lazy" is AtE (and largely agreed at that point), I could easily see a townie thinking they were a counter-wagon, etc. About the only thing I dislike is the lurking; I don't think it makes him scummy, but it does make me more willing to lynch him, if that makes sense.

mith: I keep WIFOMing myself on Hoopla. All I can remember is that she's supposed to be good scum; this doesn't fit what I'd expect from her as either town or scum, clearly she is capable of it if it'll work out, but it just looks lemming-like to me. I guess she's experienced enough that it's just too bad, meh.

UNVOTE: zoraster, VOTE: Hoopla
Hoopla>VasudeVa>>>zoraster I guess? I forgot we were this close to deadline when wagoning zor, I don't particularly want to kill him :V

[Papa Zito]

I'll post some stuff tomorrow. Too tired to do it now.

[Herodotus]

VasudeVa>>zoraster>>Hoopla

Same. But I still think KMD is scum. I'm not sure where I'd put him in comparison to Vas. Probably a little worse, but only if Vas gets an adjustment for the reason Amished talks about. (Yes, I do accept that some people tend to draw wagons even when they're town (though I didn't know that about Vas.) What I dislike about Amished's meta defense is that it COMPLETELY ignored the argument against Vas and everything else in the thread.)

VasudeVa, can you give us some links to previous games in which you were town and felt the way you described in post 564 ("I do feel out of league. There are way too many people and way too many stuff going on for me to handle.") Please specify any games in which you were under pressure.

[SpyreX]

VV>>>Hoopla>>>>Zoraster

No, seriously, not one but two "ohh meta means its a-ok" when after being called out for shamelessly wagoning and focusing on players who are looking at him as scum?

Really?

Purged with fire.

And, yea, super hi-c tip is IF he flips scum which the magic 8 ball sure is pointing at EVEN THOUGH I would be absolutely surprised if he's scum I want you both dead for it.

That's the only reason I'd support a hoop lynch today - because chances are high a jan is being used and I want that VV flip.

[Elmo]

^ who are you talking to?

[SpyreX]

? Amished and SK and anyone else who wants to pull that shield up for VV

[VasudeVa]

It's all in my Wiki. Check out NY111 where everyone attacks me for having bad theory.

Don't really have time to respond to specific questions, weekends are rather caustic for me.

[DrippingGoofball]

VasudeVa>>zoraster>>Hoopla

Same. But I still think KMD is scum.

I barely recall that KMD is in this game. And you think he's scum?