Mini 1029: Boondox Mafia (GAME OVER!!!! )

[KageLord]

/confirm

[KageLord]

I have only completed 2 games so far (both newbies). I have a few ongoing as well.

[KageLord]

Vote: el simo

All good things must come to an end.

[KageLord]

Huh... el simo is at L-3 already.

[KageLord]

[offtopic]Skill, who is the avatar? It looks like a cute version of Ayano Kannagi. It's also reminiscent of the girl from Lucky Star.

I always have a 'codescending demeaner.'

This is very likely to be the quote of the game.[/offtopic]
__________________________________________________

Vote: el simo

All good things must come to an end.

Vote:Kagelord

Even his random vote is scummy.

You do realize that this is pretty much exactly what some other people gave as a reason, right? And bringing "vibe" into it is just not possible to argue against. But, you do mention later that you have the same feeling about Mysterio, though you chose to vote me instead for some reason. Why wouldn't you vote the one that is possibly sheeping if you think the "reasoning" is so scummy? I don't even know how you could get a "vibe" from what Mysterio said.

As for that "Huh...", it was in fact meant to be a "I find this interesting". While veterans may see a quick L-3 as nothing special, this is only my second mini (and in the first the RVS went slowly), so I'm not used to seeing that happen that soon after the game starts. I didn't mean it as anything about it is scummy (since I try not to take RVS votes too seriously). And the "..." thing is a habit. I don't know why, but I like using those dots. Pauses make everything better. You'll probably see those from me on occasion.

Anyway, I'm going to go ahead and make a more serious vote now. This is reserved for the one that's trying to make a nonsensical "case" look serious.

Unvote

Vote: Raivann

[KageLord]

Buddying up to players, overreactin to my vote with an omgus vote, saying things are 'interesting' and taking no stance, this is one scummy dude.

"Buddying up to players": Who am I buddying up to? cloudocean? If so, I wouldn't consider that "buddying", just noting an awesome quote that I think most people that understand it will love. It has nothing to do with in-game, as indicated by the offtopic tags. Just out of curiosity, do you understand why that quote is funny?

Note that I'm not the first to mention this quote. I guess el simo is also buddying. And don is buddying with Scott. Looks like we caught 4 scum already if you thrown in your Mysterio "read".[/sarcasm]

"overreactin' to [mah] vote with an omgus vote": My response may be an overreaction to you, but it's a perfectly reasonable reaction to me. Like I said before, I'm not used to votes piling up so early, but especially if that's happening to me, I'm going to see if I can find someone scummy that seems to purposely by trying to mislynch me. That's you.

"saying things are 'interesting' and taking no stance": First off, that should be "thing", not plural. I only said one thing was 'interesting'. Second, I don't see what's scummy about being interested (I actually almost got mislynched in another game for saying the flavor was interesting). Third, how am I not taking a stance? I was voting el simo, which is a stance. I am now voting you, another stance. The only stance you're taking is that me and Mysterio are sure scum because of "vibes". Anyway, please answer my above question about the quote.

[KageLord]

@Mod, Skill unvoted for now

Yes, of course. How could I miss that one word in the corner?

[KageLord]

math is what it is. i can't fully explain it, as i'd have to discuss ongoing games, but i'm pretty sure its about time for mysterio to be scum. that said, i am beginning to think el simo may be scum as well.

I don't think this is a good approach. It sounds like you're guessing he will be scum by probability based on how many times he hasn't been scum recently. Is that what it is or is there some hidden alternative?

Bunny is playing weak and a bit scummy (mostly because of the weakness, as pointed out earlier), but not enough to make me shift my vote.

cloud vs. el simo does not seem to be helping anything here. A lot of the argument is subjective. For example, if ckd was here, he would freak out some and vote cloud on principle for talking about overreaction. After seeing him play, I consider it a null tell now.

FakeGod, Raivann, and mongoose, what are your thoughts about this last string of posts (cloud vs. el simo and the case on Bunny) and of the game at this point in general. Any change in your scum read(s) at this point?

[KageLord]

To everyone else, what do you think of el simo?

I obviously don't think he's as scummy for his reaction as you do. Your original post did seem like a personal attack and he responded in kind. Even if it was a bit of overreaction, I consider a slight overreaction to a slight personal attack as a null tell. Now, if he was overreacting to a single vote or two on him, that would be a different story.

[KageLord]

Lack of content and WIFOM

Wait...what? WIFOM? How is that at all wifom?? I was just asking you a question >.>;

I think he was saying that he finds bunnylover suspicious for a lack of content and using WIFOM.

He wasn't accusing you.

Yes, I think that was his explanation about why bunny is suspicious.

Also, Rai is still being scummy.

[KageLord]

Kage: Would you advocate a Rai lynch over a mysterio lynch? If so, why should other people switch wagons?

I think don has a decent point about Mysterio developing an anti-meta style so quickly, but that is definitely not enough for me to want him lynched at this point. The rest of don's case doesn't seem very believable to me. The only thing about that that I can't peg is what motivation don has in his insistent pushing of Mysterio lynch. Either it's scum wanting an easy lynch (not too likely, I think, but not impossible either), a townie thinking he sees something superscummy with a strong gut feeling, or a lyncher trying to sneak a quick one by (this possibility only came to mind because it came up in another game I'm in).

If forced to make a list, I would probably put Mysterio 2nd or 3rd mainly because of lack of information on other people, but I would definitely put Raivann first (for reasons stated time and time again). So, to whoever is on a wagon other than Raivann (especially on Mysterio), can you just summarize your own reasoning for your vote?

[KageLord]

why do you think i killed rai?

Well both kills were suggested by town, Rai and an inactive guy (who I've never heard of, did he even post?).

You talking about Jase? Yeah, he posted. And he was already one of my town reads. On the other hand though, Rai was a scum read, so...

[KageLord]

my only guess is that they were confident i wouldn't hit them?

This is what I was trying to hint at, actually. I think we should keep suggesting night kills during the end day.

I'm not sure if that's a good idea. Well... actually, I don't know if it's harmful or not, as long as don doesn't say which suggestion he plans to take, if any (and judging by his previous actions, he probably won't). If scum know who don plans to kill, that's bad. If we are just throwing out suggestions (and they are not mostly the same person), I suppose it wouldn't let them know.

In other news, I do find that there is admittedly little I feel I can discuss. Bunny and mongoose are probably my biggest suspects, but at this point that's probably more hopeful thinking (that scum would get caught so easily) than anything else.

I can't figure out though why don refuses to tell us who he targeted. Scum obviously know which one they picked, so I don't know how it could give them more information. How does it hurt town for us to know who scum killed? I'm not going to push this to a vote (or even FoS), but I just find it odd.

[KageLord]

Kage, bunny, mongoose weigh in on the Don shooting at night discussion.

I don't want to hear whining about there not being anything to discuss.

I think don should hold off on the shooting as well. To be frank, at this point, I would say he has had a bigger hand in townie deaths than scum. Sure, I can't actually credit him with Mysterio's death, since that was a majority decision, but him insisting he's sure scum and saying he'll vig him anyway sure didn't help matters with that. And then killing a townie at night (I wouldn't really blame him if that townie was Raivann, but since he won't fess up about who he killed, I don't see how he doesn't deserve blame). Also, it doesn't help for me that his current list has one person I'm sure is town on it (myself).

Anyway, blame aside, the point is that I don't quite feel like putting blind faith in don. And as someone explained, a misfire from him could end up putting us in mylo early. It's too great a risk in my opinion.

Don, out of curiosity, if the majority of players say they think you shouldn't fire tonight, will you listen or ignore?

[KageLord]

Kage, ur question is a bit odd. Have u even been reading the game? Ur rehashing a discussion which has already been settled.

unvote: vote kagelord

What possible motive might u have with this line of questioning?

1. Scott asked me directly and I hadn't been around until that post, so I couldn't answer. I don't like to not answer questions directed at me.

2. As far as I'm concerned, the discussion hasn't been settled until everyone has said something or there is some mass consensus that couldn't be thrown off by one person's opinion. The "settling" of the discussion seems to be you saying in response to scott, "i'm not shooting us into a loss. we need scum today." That doesn't sound like a very good closing statement to me (trusting you unconditionally is what got us into this in the first place, ne?).

3. Weird voting much? Bunny just answered the same question a few posts above and you didn't even mention it being odd. What's up with that?

[KageLord]

kage: the question you answered is not odd. the question you asked is. now you're blaming me for getting us "into this mess"? really?

my point is that you seem to be casting sideways suspicion at me. if you have something to say then say it. as it stands you seem to be beating around the bush trying to instigate others into suspecting me. classic scum move. gives you an out if a wagon doesn't materialize. also, attacking the claimed nightkiller is an easy way to coast through the day without having to do any actual scumhunting.

me saying "i won't shoot us into a loss" is the end of the discussion. people can post their thoughts, but you asking me that particular question is redundant as it has already been answered.

i haven't claimed a kill because i didn't shoot. last time i was vig i shot the entire town. i've grown.

The question I asked was to determine how much of a liability you were. Stubborn vig can be as bad as SK. Based on your end statement there, this does not seem to entirely be the case here.

I wasn't casting suspicion at you. Up until this post, I had no reason to doubt that you were actually the vig (I still mostly believe you are, with just a hint of doubt). As I said above, I was more or less trying to gauge how dangerous you were to town (especially by your response).

I don't see that as the end of a discussion. But I agree to disagree.

Why didn't you just say this at the beginning of D2? Why not let town know that there is an SK (or, less probably, a second scum group)?

[KageLord]

Why the L-1 vote, FakeGod?

I was just waiting to see how that whole thing with don turned out first. There didn't seem much point in me voting someone else in the middle of that back-and-forth. Now though, I'm not quite sure that the leading wagons are appropriate. Sure Bunny and mongoose have been mostly inactive (and mongoose's voting someone on his 3rd post and sticking with it throughout the day without reinforcing it or trying to convince others doesn't help), but isn't it just as likely that they're just not playing good town? I'm just a bit wary of voting someone for reasons like that given that we probably have an SK (or a lying vig), meaning 2 possible town deaths a night. Lylo might be coming very soon (maybe as early as tomorrow), so I just want to have a very good reason when I vote right now. If Bunny and mongoose aren't scum, this is just looking ideal for scum (easy mislynches coming and possible help at night from SK or vig).

So cloud, why is your vote on Bunny again?

[KageLord]

Kage: It's possible they are just poor town players, who do you suggest is a better vote for today if not the lurkers?

I'll get back to you on this once we get something from cloudocean and after Skill gives his/her thoughts. If you buy into my premise about the possibility of poor town play, there would have to be some people trying to pull the strings to make town chase weak players. I'm not exactly sure who that is at this point, but hearing from two of the players that I have almost nothing on couldn't hurt.

[KageLord]

Do we kill FG or not now? Vanilla is always a suspicious role, and even more so in a normal ( I would think) considering there are a wide variety of roles to choose from. I think I should finish him off now.

Scummy (FG gives a fair reason why).

VT isn't a role I find suspicious in a Normal. In fact, I just finished a normal that had 4. However, now that you mention it, it does seem a bit more unlikely to have this many VTs (in my mind, this hurts all 3 of Bunny, mongoose, and FG) given that 3 VTs already flipped. Setup speculation isn't always very useful though since the mod has many many options (my last game had overpowered town anyway because of the PRs). Oh how I hate self-contradictions. I'm going to go ahead and say now that I think at least one of those three has to be scum, disregarding my previous poor play argument.

[KageLord]

Well, if don is telling the truth about not shooting N1, he might have more sense than that and maybe heed our warnings. But then again, if FG flips scum... yay.

[KageLord]

Hm... I notice there was only one death last night.

[KageLord]

questions for all:

do you believe el simo's claim? why or why not?
who do you think is scum? why or why not?

when everyone has answered these questions, then we can discuss mass claim. please include more than one scum suspect. in fact, it would serve us well if everyone called out their pick for "scum team".

please answer in this order:

scott brosius
bunnylover
kagelord
mongoose
skill006

First off, lol at Bunny putting himself second last on his list? That's honesty.

About el simo, I am still iffy on his claim, though leaning true. If we do mass claim, that will make it much clearer (though there is still great danger considering the possibility (and now probability) of RB). For one thing, there was only one death last night despite 2 targets. That would point to an uncountered doc claim being true. The problem is that the doc claimed before nightfall and not only was he left alive, but he wasn't blocked either. It seems a very odd choice to me for scum to completely leave a doc alone, block a vig, and kill someone else (who they obviously didn't know was a PR, since he wasn't). What I think is a plausible explanation is that el simo fakeclaimed and then scum obviously didn't kill who he claimed to protect. However, the problem with this theory is that scum would have to somehow know he wouldn't get counterclaimed (unless they counted on the fact that FG was already lynched even though the mod didn't know it and thought in that case they kill/block the real doc at night at the cost of el simo tomorrow). Something that adds more merit to the el simo fake claim theory is that it appears DJ was blocked last night and he had said yesterday that he would be shooting el simo. Thoughts?

don, bunny is now the second most-town to you? Also note that since you claimed to have tried to shoot bunny last night when you could have easily said you tried to shoot me (and were stopped by doc), you are mostly cleared in my view.

My scum team guess (descending order of scumminess):

mongoose
Skill006
Bunnylover

If forced, I might put el simo next just because I'm still not completely sold on the claim.

I believe simo's claim. I believe DJs claim, DJ has a mason partner. I am not scum. This leaves 3 players. Assuming a 3 person scum team, the remaining would be scum.

Interesting. Since I know I'm not scum, that means that one of those people you cleared must be scum (or we have a 2-person scum team, which seems unlikely). This only strengthens my el simo as possible scum view since Scott has been playing townie all game and I believe DJ for the reason above. There is only one flaw I can see that involves a lying townie, but... we'll see.

[KageLord]

Pretty sure you have given away your partner already, unless you are purposely trying to clear someone that has been on a number of scumlists to hide your partner.

Anyway, let's get that popcorn claim going then.

el simo, can you explain to me really quickly how scum know your claim is true? According to don's new testimony, there should have been 2 kills last night, one on whoever scum targetted and one on Bunny. We got one death that wasn't Bunny, so it is pretty safe to assume scum targeted opa. We still don't know why Bunny didn't die (RB is most likely, but not 100%) and your claim is that you protected me last night. As far as scum know, you could have been fakeclaiming (it would be strange to do as town, but I have seen it before where a VI VT fakeclaims). Also, if by your reckoning scum do know you're doc, it only makes it weirder that they left you alone. I don't buy your reason that they thought you would be SKed.

Not to mention that you protected me last night, so it would only be in my best interest as scum (though personally as scum I would have killed you) to "believe" your claim. If you protected me, it was obviously because you thought I was townie. Why would I want to change that by doubting you? [/wifom]

[KageLord]

And as far as scum know I could have been fake claiming, as a vanilla townie, that would also explain why they didn't kill me last night. Regardless, I doubt they would've ignored such a threat, they have

no reason not to buy my claim, other than to try get my lynched today

.

Again, that would point to my innocence. Note that even though I haven't decided on your claim one way or the other, you aren't even on my top 3. Obviously I'm not pushing for your lynch today.

[KageLord]

I am teh jailkeeper, which is why I'm a bit wishywashy on el simo's claim, since

a jailkeeper and a doc in the same game is odd.

But, it makes sense that he didn't die since I protected him...but if that's the case, then there must be two roleblockers or something since don was roleblocked... Not only that, but it seems as though scum killed opa...which means they still didn't target el simo. Which is weird, and doesn't seem to clear any confusion up.

Let's not get into that setup speculation guessing. It almost lead to town loss in the last mini normal I was in. It did contain a town JK and a town doc (as well as a town sane cop), so even if it seems unlikely to have two protective roles, we certainly can't rule it out.

[KageLord]

You realize that if.. I'm the doc, don is the even vig, his partner (I'm assuming Scott) is the other vig, and skill is the jailbreaker, we only have 3 players left? That's three scum.

Good point there. So that means at least one of you is lying. Scum JK isn't a surprising role and given the suspicions already on Skill, I would probably consider that the most likely lie. And as I said before, after that it would be your doc claim.

And I don't really follow the SK means JK logic. I haven't been in a game with both of those yet, even though I have been in one with SK and one with JK. Obviously I have limited experience, so if it is in fact the norm to have both of those together, please correct me.

[KageLord]

You forgot to popcorn the next person to claim.

[KageLord]

VT.

So the current claimlist:

Don - Even night vig mason
mongoose - Odd night vig mason
Scott - VT
KageLord - VT
el simo - Doc
Skill - JK
Bunny - ?

Unless I missed it, Bunny still has to claim (I had thought don left him off the claimlist on purpose since he was his partner). If so, it's your turn, Bunny.

If don says mongoose is telling the truth, I think we can clear the two of them. That leaves 5 people with probably 3 scum. None of the roles of these 5 are confirmed yet. If you believe Skill's claim, Scott ends up looking scummy simply for not being targeted (even though it does confirm he's not the scum's hitman). If you believe el simo's claim... something fishy is going on with him not being targeted. Strange happenings...

My new scumteam guess:

Skill006
el simo
Scott

This is probably a scummy looking scumteam (meaning I look scummy for suggesting Scott and el simo), but I think it is the most likely right now. I would put Bunny in there for one of them except for his honesty in his list. I don't think simple scum would do something like putting themselves second last in their own list. Really that's all I'm basing my current read on him on, so feel free to disagree.

[KageLord]

He's already at L-1. You, me, or Skill are able to hammer. I don't want to hammer for the reason I gave above, which is probably not very convincing to the rest of you. So do what you feel you should do.

Thoughts on what Bunny brought up about the vig + mason setup? I've seen 3 town neighbors before (VT, Tracker, JK) and the fact that they were all town almost led to mislynch based solely on the likelihood of their being 3 townies in the neighborhood. Mason vigs don't seem strange to me considering they are even and odd nights. How are even and odd night vigs usually set up (i.e. are they usually able to nighttalk and know each other are town or stuff like that?)? Possibility of one of them still being scum vig?

[KageLord]

el simo just dropped the hammer.

Bunny better not flip town now. Seriously.

[KageLord]

We actually just lost if he does flip town. Well done in that case, Skill/Scott/el simo.

[KageLord]

The only way he's not scum is if Bunny or one of you two (don and mongoose) are.

[KageLord]

Or if it's a 2-scum team, which is unlikely but possible.

[KageLord]

simo is town due to his claim, its timing and context. there is no scum motivation for him to do that when he did. too many variables could have ruined the game for his scum team if it was a gambit.

Like what? The way I see it, if he was fakeclaiming and got counterclaimed, he dies the next day (or at night if scum know there are vigs but don't know which one is firing), but doc dies that night, leaving 1 dead scum with a bunch of dead townies, including our best town role. If he doesn't get counterclaimed, there is likely no doc (good info for scum) and now he's established as a useful town PR, so no lynch on him.

[KageLord]

Either way, I'm still really hanging on to the hope that Bunny is scum here.

[KageLord]

Okay, before anything else, I think we should do the reveal of who everyone targeted. el simo and Skill, that would be you two. mongoose is essentially cleared, I think.

After those two claim their N3 actions, I would be most interested to know Scott's thoughts at this point.

[KageLord]

Wait... you protected him last night because you thought scum would shoot him last night to prevent the kill tonight? Or you protected him last night because you thought scum would shoot him last night to prevent the kill last night?

[KageLord]

Hmm...don's dead. I must've been roleblocked last night, because I jailed don. -_-;

The former. I got my night mixed up and thought mongoose was killing tonight...

But he is, isn't he? don claimed even-night vig, but flipped odd-night vig. Which means he probably killed raivann, but...I dunno, I'm sort of confused.

I was waiting to point this out until everyone had a turn, but yeah... turns out don purposely switched which of them was odd and even when claiming. It was a pretty good idea, but scum must have caught on N2 since mongoose was apparently blocked (mongoose can confirm or deny this now, since don claimed he was somehow stopped from killing Bunny N2). Scum should be the only ones other than mongoose and don (and mod, duh) that knew the correct position of their roles (and thus chose to kill don last night since it was his turn to shoot).

Scott, what are your thoughts at this point? Top 2 for scum?

[KageLord]

I dont believe a word of skill anymore. I got roleblocked, undoubtedly, as I tried to kill skill. Also, we claimed opposite roles to try and get roleblockers off us, but I suppose they caught on. anyways, VOTE: skill

What night was this?

[KageLord]

Huh... somewhat unexpected. So it's Scott/simo then? Or possibly still Scott/Skill with a dangerous gambit.

Real Claim: Town Tracker

The reason why I lied about my claim will become apparent soon enough. Night 1, I tracked Raivann because of his scummy behavior. He didn't go anywhere. We know why now (he died that night and flipped VT). Night 2, and I still feel like a dumb*ss for this, I got confused and thought I actually was a VT in this game. It wasn't until D3 started that I remembered I was the tracker in this game. So, Night 2 went to waste and I still had no information for town whatsoever. Then, mass claim time, if I claimed tracker, there would be decent odds that I would be killed or blocked. So, I claimed VT and hoped for results that night. Night 3, I tracked Scott. He claimed VT as well, but I figured he was lying.

I was right. Last night, Scott targeted don and mongoose. I don't know why there are two targets, but one is dead. Redirector would be a decent guess, I think. Scum could have blocked someone (probably skill/el simo, whichever isn't scum) and redirected mongoose to don. Any other ideas are welcome. Anyway, that's about it. Either Scott proffers a very good explanation for all of this, or he's scum.

For now, mongoose, I think you should take your vote off of Skill. Just in case. You can put it back on after Scott's had a chance to explain, if you want.

[KageLord]

There weren't decent odds that you would have been blocked or killed any more than there were for me, Skill, mongoose or don. I don't buy it.

Well, considering mongoose and don only work one night a piece (so scum could completely ignore one for a night), and one of you or Skill is actually scum, I would say those are decent odds. If I was scum RB at that point and saw someone claim tracker, I would personally block/kill the tracker and either mongoose or Skill/simo (whichever I'm not). There is also the little fact that if mongoose shot and picked a townie, scum win.

Who would you pick if you were scum RB in that position? Say, for example, that it's Skill. That leaves tracker, doctor, and the two vigs to block and kill (also there's Scott's mystery role, which is probably scum PR, to think about). Disregarding that, consider that one of the vig's (don's) power doesn't work on that night. Wouldn't you block either the doc or the vig and kill the tracker? That way the tracker can't say any results he gets and either you get a surefire kill by blocking the doc (otherwise there is the risk you would protect me) and run the risk of one scum getting shot (or winning by a townie getting shot), or you could stop the kill and just run the risk of being stopped by the doc (what have you to lose anyway?).

Anyway, I just thought of something. If Skill is town, and we take it for granted that mongoose is town, that means 2 of Scott, simo, and I are scum. If either simo and I were scum though while Skill was town, we could have just hammered Skill right now for the win. Since simo and I have posted since L-1 and not hammered, either we're both town, or the scum team is simo/Skill. Either way, since neither of the two of us hammered and mongoose is practically cleared as town (unless we got totally hoodwinked by the setup and one of the mason vigs is scum), that means whatever the scum team is, it must involve Skill. If the team was simo/Scott, simo could have hammered just now. So... on the basis that mongoose is town... and I really really really hope that's a safe assumption to make...

Vote: Skill006

*closes eyes*

[KageLord]

Either town just lost to Bunny/mongoose/Scott, or we just got rid of the second scum.

If it's the latter and I end up dead, you know my testimony in my "real claim" post is true.

[KageLord]

Yep, your vote is the decider. And Scott targeted el simo last night. But I'm sure you already knew that I would say that.

I really hope the answer to your question is yes (or if vig takes precedence, that would be even better). That would make things a heck of a lot easier for town here.

[KageLord]

Yep, your vote is the decider. And Scott targeted el simo last night. But I'm sure you already knew that I would say that.

I really hope the answer to your question is yes (or if vig takes precedence, that would be even better). That would make things a heck of a lot easier for town here.

I'm not sure why that is even important. The game is in mongoose's hands. We are clearly going to vote each other and he casts the deciding vote. If I get lynched, half of the remaining players will be scum, which is usually the win condition for scum regardless of the killing power of the remaining town player. Unless mongoose wants to no-lynch? But that is not a good idea.

It would be very important if the answer is yes or vig takes precedence. I (or mongoose himself) can explain why after the mod answers.

[KageLord]

Relationships with flipped scum.

Bunny is playing weak and a bit scummy (mostly because of the weakness, as pointed out earlier), but not enough to make me shift my vote.

Standard scum distancing, mentioning him as scummy, not enough for vote.

It wasn't enough for a vote at that point since Raivann was super scummy/anti-town. Clearly the vigs agreed since he was their first target instead of Bunny.

Why the L-1 vote, FakeGod?

I was just waiting to see how that whole thing with don turned out first. There didn't seem much point in me voting someone else in the middle of that back-and-forth. Now though, I'm not quite sure that the leading wagons are appropriate. Sure Bunny and mongoose have been mostly inactive (and mongoose's voting someone on his 3rd post and sticking with it throughout the day without reinforcing it or trying to convince others doesn't help), but isn't it just as likely that they're just not playing good town? I'm just a bit wary of voting someone for reasons like that given that we probably have an SK (or a lying vig), meaning 2 possible town deaths a night. Lylo might be coming very soon (maybe as early as tomorrow), so I just want to have a very good reason when I vote right now. If Bunny and mongoose aren't scum, this is just looking ideal for scum (easy mislynches coming and possible help at night from SK or vig).

So cloud, why is your vote on Bunny again?

More soft defense of Bunny

Also more soft defense of mongoose. If I'm on Bunny's team for soft defending him here, I'm also on mongoose's team for soft defending him. See the problem with that?

My scum team guess (descending order of scumminess):

mongoose
Skill006
Bunnylover

First time we have acknowledgment of Skill, but still both are not his top scum suspect.

Wow... that would be the poorest semi-bus I have ever seen. In a list of 3 suspects putting 2 of one's scum buddies. Plus, for that to work, I would have to have voted mongoose, which I didn't. As scum I would have no reason to hold back on going after mongoose after putting my two scumbuddies on my list like that. Mongoose already had a good amount of suspicion on him then, so that seems like a logical wagon to restart at that point. The fact that I didn't even attempt to restart that wagon despite putting mongoose as my top suspect shows genuine restraint considering lylo/mylo. Also, no reason for scum to plop Skill onto that list when it's nowhere near necessary.

My new scumteam guess:

Skill006
el simo
Scott

This is probably a scummy looking scumteam (meaning I look scummy for suggesting Scott and el simo), but I think it is the most likely right now. I would put Bunny in there for one of them except for his honesty in his list. I don't think simple scum would do something like putting themselves second last in their own list. Really that's all I'm basing my current read on him on, so feel free to disagree.

Goes back to defending Bunny for a pretty weak reason (his honesty). Skill still on the list however there is little wiggle room at this point.

Refuses to hammer Bunny, but does hammer Skill.

So we have a lot of defending Bunny, and ignoring Skill until mass-claim and it is necessary to address all players. Both of these relationships seem scummy and problematic to me.

I admit, that Bunny situation does look bad. To me, it looks so bad that it would be idiotic for scum. At some points you paint me as some scheming scum, ready to semi-bus both my partners in a list of 3 (and one time moving one of them up to my top suspect), then we get here where scum would have to be an idiot in my position. When it is that clear that Bunny is going to be lynched, there is no scum that I know of that would try to defend him like that. And obviously my hammer on Skill was about 98% guaranteed to hit scum given the logic I mentioned beforehand. el simo then said he had the same train of thought and was just waiting to see what I would do for a bit.

Tracker claim

I have addressed problems with his claim earlier. There are 2 big ones that stand out for me however.

1. All of his results are easily made up. N1 Raivann was VT and obviously tracked nowhere. N2 he "forgot" his role N3 he "tracked" me to DJ and mongoose (covered in point 2). N4 "tracked" me to el simo.

Okay, before anything else, I think we should do the reveal of who everyone targeted. el simo and Skill, that would be you two. mongoose is essentially cleared, I think.

After those two claim their N3 actions, I would be most interested to know Scott's thoughts at this point.

This is his first point after the end of N3 asking for targets to be revealed. Mongoose reveals that he was role blocked. Only after getting this information, Kage claims that he "tracked" me to the NK of DJ and mongoose. So all of his claimed information can easily be made up from the thread. Raivann flips VT, is an easy fake tracker. He doesn't even make one up N2. Once he gets the information on who targeted who, puts the blame on me. And obviously "tracks" me to simo N4 also easily surmised from the thread.

N1, I don't see how you can blame me for that result. Vigs thought he was scum too, apparently. What else would you expect from a tracker on N1? Do you doubt el simo because he didn't save anyone for the entire game (and from the info he revealed, he wasn't blocked but just picked the wrong person)? N2, I accept the full blame for that. I would think it would be easier for scum to just claim another VT there, but whatever, I can see how timing out on my action would look suspicious.

N3 is what I think is one of the biggest reasons to think I'm telling the truth.

Think about it this way: if you are scum trying to fakeclaim D4 after claiming VT the previous day, what do you do? Well, first of all, claiming anything at that point would be risky. But, disregarding that, if you decide to go with tracker as your fakeclaim, how do you pick your targets? Picking from the dead each night is one way to go. However, the one thing I would never understand scum doing is announcing multiple targets. Scum could easily continue the pattern by saying "Scott targeted don". Since don ended up dead, that would be all fine and dandy for framing. Or, scum could go another route and say, "Scott targeted mongoose (or el simo or whoever was alive)". At that point, Scott is painted as lying to town and targeting someone, giving the strong possibility of being the RB (possibly saving Skill from being lynched) or some other scum PR. Why in the world would scum say the unlikely phenomenon of targeting two players? This is easily doubted by town since there are not many roles that target multiple people. The logical conclusion: only a town tracker would actually say that their target targeted multiple people.

Also, your N4 theory is easily debunked. If the point was for me to wait until mongoose said he was blocked, I would have then claimed that Scott targeted mongoose only and suggested that it could be the reason he was blocked. That would be a believable sequence if you believe the tracker claim. But, since I didn't even suggest the possibility of Scott being RB and instead claimed two targets for him (and suggested possibility of redirector, not RB), that theory goes out the window. The reason I wanted everyone to claim first was to make my decision about whether it was Scott/Skill or Scott/simo based on the targets that Skill and simo claimed. mongoose saying he was blocked after Skill had claimed JK was just about the icing on the cake as far as that was concerned. Notice I asked for Scott's thoughts in particular. I was trying to get him to say who his suspects were at that point and to see if he said anything contradictory to what I knew or believed to be true. After all, at that point, there was the tiniest sliver of possibility that Scott was actually a town PR that wanted to do his work in private.

2. He has 2 "results" for me N3, yet only 1 for me N4.

I think Kage pegged me as Mafia RB and figured 2 results would really sell me as scum. Given that 2 results were easily fakeable with the death of DJ and after mongoose announced he was RBed, this was a believable track. But Skill flips Mafia RB and this assumption falls apart. So he "tracks" me to 2 people N3, but only 1 person N4?

Vote: KageLord

If I pegged you as RB (and was trying to sell that view), why would I suggest redirector as your role? As I mentioned above, if my goal was to frame you as RB, I would have suggested that your two targets could have been a kill and a block (which honestly hadn't crossed my mind since I thought your partner was the RB, which turned out to be true). Also, the single result on N4 is easily explained. You don't have to use your power every night. If you wanted to, as the sole remaining scum, you could just decide to kill el simo and skip your other power.

Also, in my experience, scum are usually the ones that vote first in final 3. Just saying.

Vote: Scott Brosius

mongoose, I suggest you wait until the mod answers your question before voting. It could be of the utmost importance.

[KageLord]

Also it may be unsafe to assume someone on the bandwagon against el_simo is mafia. I don't think mafia would have joined a bandwagon so early on and may even try and lead us down the wrong path to focus on the bandwagon list while they are actually getting people to lynch the wrong ones.
But then again mafia could be stupid. I tend to think mafia are very intelligent, so I may be giving them too much credit.

All of this is WIFOM and distracting. Also the thought that "mafia are intelligent" needs to be thrown out the window. I have seen an increasing use of the "too scummy to be scum" defense for scummy players. Very few people are expert at this game, and people make mistakes.

I'm keeping my vote where it is, but watching Bunny and Raiv.

We need some more discussion though. cloudocean's recent posts don't sit well with me and Bunny/mongoose have still not provided any content.

This is the same kind of "distancing" you blame me for with that first quote. It's a pretty poor "tell" as far as I'm concerned.

Vote: Bunnylover

This is bad. KageLord's response to my request was thought out and seems town. You haven't even mentioned Bunny (or really anything) all day and you conveniently drop the L-1 vote?

Kage: It's possible they are just poor town players, who do you suggest is a better vote for today if not the lurkers?

Unvote
Vote: FakeGod

Interesting. Scott voted Bunny early (mentioning mongoose committing the same offense in the vote post, but for some reason not voting mongoose then) but then hops off the wagon conveniently enough when FG puts it at L-1. Dead scumbuddies are perfectly acceptable later in the game, but trying to avoid having his buddy lynched D2 is apparently worth sticking his neck out for him.

[KageLord]

Damn. Good choice leaving mongoose alive, Scott. Scum win. >>

[KageLord]

So, I have to say that was excellent play by Scott. I thought he was surely town until just a bit before N3. It also didn't help that I refused to hammer Bunny and I actually did forget my action N2. So bad play by me was definitely a factor.

Now that it's over, what was your real role, Scott? I'm curious.

Congrats to Scott, Skill, and Bunny. Good game.

[KageLord]

this is an awesome set-up, i agree with scott. scum didn't necessarily need two roleblockers. i thought bunny was going to flip nk immune gf, then i figured it was scott. i liked the mason/vig combo. i should have claimed odd night, it may have enabled the skill shot to get through.

Yeah, when dana made the mistake on your flip, I actually thought you had pulled that trick. I was impressed. Then it turned out you were actually even... still, despite my original thoughts on your early claim, you played your role very well. I didn't blame you for Raivann at all (but it did end up being a bit unfortunate when I claimed).

Mysterio, how would you have claimed if you were me?

dana, other than that one mistake (which you corrected soon enough), the game was well-modded. I agree with Scott on the setup too. An NK immune scum instead of second RB would have been good.

[KageLord]

Can we pre-in here? If so, /pre-in.

[KageLord]

Quick topic is http://www.quicktopic.com/44/H/kGmKYQGwwY4
I suppose I should have realized saying you forgot your role n2 is the stupidest thing a scum could do, but then again, that just adds a whole level of WIFOM into this game.
hindsite is 20/20 I suppose

Yeah, it was a pretty tough call for you. I could see how I looked more scummy than Scott. I was just hoping that telling the truth about N2 and claiming two targets N3 would save us there.