/Invitational 11: Pick your Poison 5 (Game Over)

[Kmd4390]

Just wore myself out on another game. I'll try to catch up on this later today.

[Elmo]

I actually like a Hoopla lynch quite a lot after taking a look elsewhere.

[Ellibereth]

Only remember once as scum and recently saw someone say you were more active as town.
Just checking.

ELMO
Does it kinda sorta have to do with the above? ^^^

[zoraster]

Back from vacation. I have a game I'm modding that I need to launch, but I'll be catching up very soon, given that the deadline approaches.

[Elmo]

Does it kinda sorta have to do with the above? ^^^

It's quite likely the same. =)

[Patrick]

Votecount

Hoopla (5) -- Papa Zito, Amished, mith, Plumegranate, Elmo
VasudeVa (4) -- populartajo, Herodotus, Seraphim, SpyreX
zoraster (5) -- Kmd4390, ooba, ekiM, DrippingGoofball, VasudeVa
Papa Zito (2) -- Zorblag, Rhinox
Herodotus (1) -- Hoopla
Kmd4390 (1) -- Ellibereth
DrippingGoofball (1) -- zoraster

Not Voting: SaintKerrigan

With 20 alive, 11 votes will be needed to lynch. Deadline: 25th of August, at 12:30 am US Central Time.

[Papa Zito]

I'm going to respond to Troll separately since it turned out pretty huge.

You didn't dismiss it as chiding then; you seemed to genuinely be willing to answer it:

I was, and am. The paragraph you quoted from Troll didn't seem to have any questions to it. Maybe quote specifically what you want me to respond to?

Think it's likely the scum gave us one Hider? Or two? Or is it just based on your feelings on Troll and his perceived scumminess? Just out of curiosity.

Given the alternatives I think there might be one or two lurking about, sure.

What's your opinion about Troll's complete and total tunneling on Day 1? Town or scum move?

Its like a damn scum manifesto

+1

Zito, I give up. :p

Lawl.



I'm pretty sad to see the Hoopla wagon dissolve, given that she's done nothing (and I mean nothing) to earn that.

Hoopla (5) -- Papa Zito, Amished, mith, VasudeVa, Plumegranate
VasudeVa (4) -- populartajo, Herodotus, Seraphim, SpyreX
zoraster (5) -- Kmd4390, ooba, ekiM, DrippingGoofball, Elmo

This may be important later.

[Papa Zito]

So I asked Troll to back up the following assertion:

Even if you think that one of the interesting and important aspects of the game be boring you no should fight as hard against it as you did

... and he came up with:

If you want particular posts Troll will cite your isolation posts 1, 2, 3, 4 and 6. Post 8

So let's take a look at a couple of those.

Hello. I was prodded. I'm just waiting for this business to be over so we can start hunting the scumz.

I'm afraid I'm having a hard time seeing where I'm fighting anything here. Help me out Troll.

Guys, seriously, why can't we just pick something and play the game/lynch Hoopla? There's no perfect plan here and watching you all spin in circles trying to find one makes me dizzy.

Troll, who am I fighting here? Who is being hindered by this statement?

OMG

Anyway I reread Assassin and it doesn't seem so bad once I got past my knee-jerk to the name. I think I'd be fine with a Roleblocker/Assassin combo.

Please please please can we please end this soon please? Also please.

Basically the same as 2. Who am I fighting with here? Who is being hindered by this statement?

Always look on the briiiiight side of life, dee do, dee do dee do dee do.

I oppose any claiming strategy.

Good man.

Is Monty Python anti-town? How does agreeing with Amished here mean I'm fighting hard against something? Why haven't you attacked Amished in a similar manner?

We shouldn't claim anything. Claiming is useless. We should be picking some crap to give to the scum that won't matter because we're lynching them anyway. And we should do it before this DAY 0 drags to eternity.

The only thing I can come up with here is that you're arguing that anti-claim = anti-town? In other words, opposing your plan, despite admitting that it's fairly standard for me to oppose early claims, somehow makes me likely anti-town?

As for 8:

Okay it's pretty obvious that most of the crowd wants nothing to do with this claim business. No more claim talking.

It's also pretty obvious that people have accepted Roleblocker as one of the power options. Let's please hammer this and move on (dammit).

After that we can slug it out over Janitor vs. Assassin, and really at this point I don't care. But do the above stuff first so I can at least pretend we're making progress.

At the time I wrote that we were at:

Hider claim?
Yes - 2 (Plumegranate, mith)
No - 8 (ekiM, Amished, PZ, Rhinox, Vas, Hoopla, SpyreX, Kmd4390)

Massclaim?
Yes - 0 ()
No - 9 (ekiM, Plumegranate, Amished, PZ, Rhinox, Vas, Hoopla, SpyreX, Kmd4390)

At this response rate, can you really argue my first assertion? Secondly, the vote count stood at:

Janitor (5) -- SpyreX, Kmd4390, DrippingGoofball, Ellibereth, Papa Zito
Rolecop (1) -- ooba
Roleblocker (8) -- Kmd4390, Papa Zito, ooba, SpyreX, Rhinox, Amished, mith, VasudeVa
Assassin (4) -- VasudeVa, Rhinox, Amished, Slicey

With Roleblocker 3 votes ahead of the next option and no real opposition posted, can you really argue my second assertion?

Am I fighting with anyone in the third paragraph?

Also, I'd like to point out a few quotes:

I agree with Zito on almost everything.

We shouldn't claim anything. Claiming is useless. We should be picking some crap to give to the scum that won't matter because we're lynching them anyway. And we should do it before this DAY 0 drags to eternity.

This is the best post in this whole topic.

This is still going on. >.>
Can we just choose whatever and roll...

This needs to end.

No to hiders, No to massclaim. Yes to starting.

Are these people scum, Troll?

[Hoopla]

I actually like a Hoopla lynch quite a lot after taking a look elsewhere.

That doesn't mean anything. It just means I don't like you guys as much.

[Seraphim]

Alright, this constant joking around in lieu of actual content from Hoopla is starting to get on my nerves.

[Hoopla]

Alright, this constant joking around in lieu of actual content from Hoopla is starting to get on my nerves.

Sounds like you're gearing up to jump on my wagon. Don't be shy.

[SpyreX]

Hoopster whats the dealio?

Fight the urge. Fight for your right.

In other news Zito is still town. KMD reaaaallly needs to contribute something or los ropos in the near future.

---

I never said the names were random. I argued that the group of {players who were prodded} was not the same as the group of {players who are lurking}. I thought I covered that in this post?

No, you didn't

say

the names were random. You said the list had the same amount of validity as a random list would. Which is junk.

And, if I'm misrepping you OMG what part am I misrepping? Because, whoo doggy, please say its the "then even go so far as to say being prodded != lurking != being scum." part.

That would be pretty sweet and I would approve I PROMISE there wouldn't be repercussions.

Totally promise.

[Ellibereth]

Does it kinda sorta have to do with the above? ^^^

It's quite likely the same. =)

Yeah. The problem is it contradicts my own limited experience with her. >.>
Bleh.

PLUMEN
EKIM
KMD

[Rhinox]

ok Spy, humor me then. Why is Tajo's list better than a list of 6 random names?

[Kmd4390]

Spy, yeah I'm sick and still worn out. Hopefully tomorrow. Or hell, maybe I'll get my ass off the couch and get to a computer before bed. (Phone post)

[SpyreX]

Sure since I got my joke-o-matic 9000 I'll humor you:

What did the chicken say when it crossed the road?

"HEY YOU RHINOX YOU DIDNT SAY WHERE SPYREX MISREPPED YOU WOOOOSH"

That one is always a knee-slapper.

---

Now, why is that list better than a random list? Seriously?

The simple fact that calling out six people for being behind activity levels at that point is telling. When I get some more time I'll go ahead and parse activity D0, D1 before that and after and see what shakes out because I guarantee you you'll see some patterns.

Like, for example, you responding to say you'd do something in the scant minutes between the prods going out and tajo making that post AND then in your next post (sometime later) kiboshing it not once but twice ("Is this a joke or serious", "You might as well have picked 6 names at random).

But, lets humor me now because thats even more fun:

You threw down that vote for KMD out of the gates. You threw down that vote for PZ for reasons that I still don't understand. You've played lookwarm on VV and Hoopla yet, ultimately, haven't commented for real on any of them.

And for the amount of tepid fighting you've done with tajo for calling you out and me now

you've still managed not to say anything important about either of our alignments.

So, who's scum?

Is your vote well served sitting on Zito? I can get behind fighting for your candidate but, alas, you aren't doing that.

You aren't doing anything, really.

[mith]

SpyreX: Am I reading post 620 correctly? You would be "absolutely surprised if [the player you are currently voting for is] scum"?

(Has no one else commented on this because I'm reading it wrong, or because it's so ridiculously scummy that it blew everyone's scumdar?)

VasudeVa's recent play feels like he's trying to play up to the Village Idiot pass people are giving him (which is weird, because I didn't think he deserved the label until the zoraster vote). Not sure what to make of him, now.

Hoopla needs to die. Nowish.[/broken record]

[SpyreX]

Lordy be, that's what happens when I'm tired:

And, yea, super hi-c tip is IF he flips scum which the magic 8 ball sure is pointing at EVEN THOUGH I would be absolutely surprised if he's scum I want you both dead for it.

That's the only reason I'd support a hoop lynch today - because chances are high a jan is being used and I want that VV flip.

I'm not even sure how I screwed that up but it was SUPPOSED to read:

EVEN THOUGH I would be absolutely surprised if (both of you are scum) I'd want you both dead for it.

I.e. I am super doubtful both Amished and SK are scum playing shield (RB/Jan aren't worth that kind of protection) BUT I'd still want them both dead with a scum-VV flip for that stunt.

So, yea, you read it right - I just sure as hell didn't SAY it right.

[Plumegranate]

Hate to say, but Zor's 'slip' is complete bollocks and an utter nulltell. The implication of Zor's statement is 'DGB's gambit did not come from the perspective of a Townie trying to help the Town'. While I disagree, this smacks of an honest opinion (or at least one not necessarily colored by a scum mindset). Ooba's vote on the slip is fairly weak. Ughhhh. It might just be my experience, but 'scumslips', even the ones which seem super-ultra incriminating are spotty tells at best, but can be taken advantage of pretty easily.

Why are Spy and Hero having a long, drawn-out conversation about meta which has nothing to do with anything? Or am I missing something here. It looks like spam spam spam spam lovely spam wonderful spam but just SPAM. While we're here, Hero, what about Spy's acknowledgment of the validity of the Hoopla wagon while deciding to stay off it seemed Townish to you? By the way, yes to the question dodging, and at a glance I'll call VV's scumhunting to that point minimal but extant (which is more than I can say for some people, like certain chronic nonentities *cough*Kmd*cough*. I may be lazy BUT. And speaking of, you're right, Kmd

does

do bandwagon analysis and should have been pretty anti-Janitor . . . actually that's a pretty decent case you have put together right there. HMMM).

VV lashing out against his wagoners is pretty shoddy, and I never thought that being against your own wagon could look so horrid. I could go into the defenses and excuses which multiply and mutate and such (FOSing and otherwise attacking the people on his wagon then labeling it 'abrasive defense'; I scumhunt by bandwagoning whatever moves but there are so many people me trying to scumhunt would just confuse everything). It's everything and the kitchen sink, but it all comes down to excuses for trying to discredit his wagon and the people on his wagon without legitimate reasons and with some degree of unsubstantiated bullying.

THAT said I think I have some memories corroborating with Amished's claimed meta of VV. I kinda wish I didn't but. It's certainly enough to keep him from knocking out Hoopla from my top suspect slot but I would shed no tears to see VV dead

Zor bandwagon is

stupid

, at least the parts based on the so-called scumslip (dunno about DGB 'cause she was all over Zor earlier in the spat over her gambit). Sheepy bandwagons can be decent, but this one is ridiculous. Tied for the top badwagon there? Everything I said about Ooba's vote above goes approximately the same for EkiM, maybe for sheepy Elmo. Not sure yet how to tell when shameless self-declared sheeping is a scumtell, though. GRRR.

VasudeVa>>zoraster>>Hoopla

Same. But I still think KMD is scum.

I barely recall that KMD is in this game. And you think he's scum?

I thought you thought that if you don't remember someone's in the game he's avoiding the opportunity to commit scumtells; I guess I remembered wrong but I still agree with that sentiment. I hope the scums gave us a Vig or two to take out guys like him, because wagons are best rolled over people actively protesting the fact of their bodies being crushed beneath the wheels. Or something.

Hoopla's been question-dodging and contributing next-to-nothing since all her previous stuff. So. Can we please just lynch this thing already?

Hoopla>VV>>>>zoroaster - Maybe more >>>>s between zoro because I have a give-or-take neutral read on him and would prefer plenty of other players die before he comes up.

What's your opinion about Troll's complete and total tunneling on Day 1? Town or scum move?

Neutral leaning Town move, given that it's Troll. I assume he's capable of pulling out ideas which benefit the Town with few risks as scum, too, but I've seen him coming up with claiming ideas as Town directly. I guess if you seriously believe we have one or two Hiders who both chose extremely anti-Town play, in my humble, and you actually believe Troll was rolefishing as scum, maaaaaaybe you can see him as scum but that is so far-fetched &c. that I'm not counting it in my calculations at all, therefore decent Townread on Troll overall. And yes, at the time, when I thought one or remotely two Hiders were possibilities, I thought that the risks were so minimized that it was unlikely to have been a scum rolefishing ploy at all anyway. Hmm. Well, hold on:

How much would a hider claim hurt us do you think? Troll thinks that you be objecting to it just because it no be the normal thing to do to start a game? Troll thinks that you should at this point trust Troll's instincts to some degree when it comes to what claims might make sense.

PREVIEW EDIT @mith

And, yea, super hi-c tip is IF he flips scum which the magic 8 ball sure is pointing at EVEN THOUGH I would be absolutely surprised if he's scum I want you both dead for it.

He seems to say he thinks VV will flip scum and that it's unlikely in the same sentence. I'm assuming Spy was ON MOONBEAMS on that sentence but clarification would rock.

[SpyreX]

Why are Spy and Hero having a long, drawn-out conversation about meta which has nothing to do with anything?

Because he went right off the crazy train and I was trying to figure out where he was coming from BUT ALAS VV decided to just see if he could twirl a handlebar mustache and if people would go "well, the guy with the bloody knife can't be scum too obvious".

In due time I'll get back to that, believe you me.

[VasudeVa]

Seems like a slip to me.

Hey Spy, was that a slip? Y/N?

[SpyreX]

If you thought it was a slip why the hell aren't you voting for me FFS?

Why aren't you dead yet my lord. What do we need a blinking sign?

[VasudeVa]

I'm quite surprised myself. I mean, If I saw myself playing like that I'd vote me too. But that's what I get for being Town and different. Everyone hates me.

I wish I had buddies forced to ally with me.

[Elmo]

Plum: I actually didn't know what the slip was supposed to be, I just felt like wagoning someone who seemed background-y I will say that I was really surprised to see it got votes like that, it was probably useful for that alone.

VV: Except me, obviously! Oh god please be town

[Herodotus]

It's all in my Wiki. Check out NY111 where everyone attacks me for having bad theory.

I didn't find much of use there; more please? Recent games are best. (Also, smaller games would help, I don't want to read 60 pages.) I'm not going to waste hours randomly choosing games from your wiki either.

VasudeVa>>zoraster>>Hoopla

Same. But I still think KMD is scum.

I barely recall that KMD is in this game. And you think he's scum?

Yes, and I finally presented some reasons here. There is one other thing I had in mind that I didn't mention, but it was early and speculative, and wouldn't likely convince anyone.

I have stated over and over and over and over and over

again

that I find his familiarity with my meta to be suspect at that time. Make fun of my rather odd way of thinking all you want but that was what I felt when talked about my meta.

People read games. Maybe he happened to be studying the playstyle of someone else in the same game as you a month ago. I don't see any way that this is a scumtell. I don't think he would simply lie about having seen you in a previous game.
On a related note, I asked whether you find Tajo scummy. Is this your complete response?
However, now that we have some self-meta comments, I do want Tajo to answer Vas's question. What games of Vas's have you read, and how does his earlier play here compare to his play there?

Also, do you honestly believe that I would go like 'OMG SCUMBUDDIES HALP. ONE GUY ASKED ME TO MAKE A 1 PARAGRAPH SUMMARY OF MY META. COACH PLZX.'.

Nope. Bad attacks with bad scum-buddy coaching theory. Hero is defscum.

This is more what I had in mind:
Tajo: question
Vas: refusal to answer question
Tajo and me: votes for you
You (in QT): I'M GETTING WAGONED, WHAT DO I DO?
Your scumbuddies (in QT): stand your ground because caving would (look scummy) or (make it clear that you can't be scum with Tajo or Herodotus) or (something like that)
... now that I think about it, that probably isn't very good advice.
But I feel like the natural human response to feeling overwhelmed and being pressured by people with questions is to try to give them the information they are asking for (consider: interrogations.) The fact that you responded differently suggests there may have been an outside influence.

Where did Hero FoS: buddy? I only see him commenting about KMD because ooba asked him about KMD.

We need an emoticon for jaw-dropping-all-the-way-to-the-floor. KMD has been my top suspect since D0, with competition from you.

It's not literally an FOS:buddy, but it is in spirit.

VasudeVa>>zoraster>>Hoopla

Same. But I still think KMD is scum.

He's voting you, claims to be willing to vote zoraster and Hoopla, yet he brings up KMD quite forcefully. And KMD is doing pretty good with the lurking so far, with slight pressure from Elmo (and maybe others I didn't notice).

I'm not willing to vote Hoopla. Maybe Zoraster.
Damn, you're right. I'm scum with KMD. I should distance more forcefully by voting him. But NO ONE ELSE VOTE KMD, PLEASE. I'M JUST DISTANCING AND DON'T WANT HIM TO ACTUALLY GET LYNCHED BECAUSE HE'S ONE OF OUR POWER ROLES.

unvote; vote: KMD

@Seraph: Well then SUCK ON THIS.

Vote: Zoraster

.......?

Your play confounds me.

You said that I was wagoning to get someone lynched. I was proving you wrong. (Then hero comes along etc.)

How does that prove him wrong? Just because it's a vote for someone other than Hoopla? Zoraster was one vote behind her, and you're taking credit for not-wagoning?

Vote Zoraster

Clearly no one is as interested in Hero as I am.

What changed from when you voted me to make you say that? A few people posted and said nothing either way about me.

Does it kinda sorta have to do with the above? ^^^

It's quite likely the same. =)

Yeah. The problem is it contradicts my own limited experience with her. >.>
Bleh.

PLUMEN
EKIM
KMD

Whoosh, but I get the feeling you two aren't scum together.

@Spy: I really don't think the Rhinox paragraph about the prods is scummy. But Rhinox needs to play some more offense.

(skipping some topics due to limited time)

I wish I had buddies forced to ally with me.

You have a small army of chainsaw and pure-meta defenders. You don't

need

buddies.

REMEMBER, I DON'T WANT A WAGON TO FORM ON MY BUDDY KMD. PLEASE DON'T QUICKLYNCH HIM LIKE I PRETENDED TO WANT TO DO AT THE BEGINNING OF DAY 1.