/Invitational 11: Pick your Poison 5 (Game Over)

[Herodotus]

While we're here, Hero, what about Spy's acknowledgment of the validity of the Hoopla wagon while deciding to stay off it seemed Townish to you?

If he was scum, I thought he would have either joined it or disagreed with it.

[VasudeVa]

If I am being coached with this playerlist, I'll probably get good advice and NOT get wagoned. Also, being coached increases the chance that I'll be dissonant/ungenuine. What say you about that? Do you think I'm faking this because my scumbuddies coached me?

Be lazy and ISO me in NY111. Scum like to attack me and my 'bad' theory

(You say bad, I say different. >.>)

.

It proves him wrong because he claims that I'm using bandwagons to lynch people rather than what I explained to be a way to gather information. Do you think so too? What do you think I'm doing?

@Elmo: Aww thanks! Actually, I kinda consider you to be my mafia older sister since you modded my first game and all.

Plus I'm very unpopular with MS Females.

Well, one of them anyway.

[Herodotus]

Be lazy and ISO me in NY111. Scum like to attack me and my 'bad' theory

(You say bad, I say different. >.>)

.

It's all in my Wiki. Check out NY111 where everyone attacks me for having bad theory.

I didn't find much of use there; more please? Recent games are best. (Also, smaller games would help, I don't want to read 60 pages.) I'm not going to waste hours randomly choosing games from your wiki either.

I already did that.
How others reacted to you in that game has zero correlation with your alignment in this game. It's you I'm interested in. How accurate of a read on you do you want me to have?

[Amished]

The more I see, the more I agree with the Hero/KMD scumteam theory.

[Papa Zito]

PLUMEN

wat

Zor

We have two Zors.

Neutral leaning Town move, given that it's Troll. <etc>

? I was asking about tunneling, not hiders.

BTW, nobody's sitting back and asking themselves what scum motivation Troll may have had to do his little tango, which is really concerning to me - or they are and aren't coming up with answers somehow. The auto-town Troll thing is a bad idea imo tbh wtf bbq.

Incidentally I have other scum reads and Troll is on my back burner atm but he decided to make a big stink so.

Hoopla needs to die. Nowish.[/broken record]

dis rite here

Actually my gut is screaming that you're scum for some reason mith but I dunno why and also Hoopla. That said my subconscious has proven to be way better at this game than I am.


BTW HAY TAJO AM I SCUM THIS GAME?

[Kmd4390]

Ok, starting with Page 20. Let's see what I missed.

------------

What is the Law of Averages that everyone is talking about?

------------

mith, need to finish this read before I have a good enough idea of suspicions to properly answer your question. If this post doesn't make it clear enough, feel free to ask again because I will forget you asked.

------------

I agree with Rhinox that Zito's opinion that hiders should have fakeclaimed is a bad one. However, I agree with Mith that it isn't scummy.

-----------

Post 508 by Zoraster seems to be a lot of useless "opinions" that don't say town or scum on anyone.
-"it's unfortunate DGB went AWOL ...it's not scummy she's going to Caffwagon."
-"Papa zito to me comes across as more frustrating than scummy. I reserve the right to revise that, but so far he just comes across as kind of an asshole."
-"Hoopla, usually pretty collected and thoughtful in her posts has become more and more incoherent. Hoopla: why herod? "
-"MME needs to step up and actually answer because he or she clearly has no idea what's going on in the game."

It's just a summary of what is going on for the most part. No solid opinions. He literally just says:
-DGB is V/LA
-Zito isn't scummy, but here's an out to change my mind
-Hoopla's posting style is different
-MME is lurking

Not posting solid opinions is one of the scummiest things you can do. It gives you an excuse to vote whichever way you want later on because you haven't said anything solid one way or the other yet.

If I wasn't already voting Zoraster, I'd vote him for this post alone.

------------

Hero is extremely difficult for me to read in his posts directed at DGB on Page 22.

-----------

Amished, you say you want to convince Zoraster that he is wrong. This implies a strong town read on Zoraster (scum already know and don't need to be "convinced"). Why so sure Zoraster is town?

------------

Ok, only made it through 3 pages for now, but I'll get around to the rest tonight if I can.

[Rhinox]

Spy...

The misrep is that you are arguing that I'm trying to discredit tajo's list by comparing it to a list of 6 random names.

No, that is not what I did. Tajo pulled a list a players who were prodded in one instance, and said at least one of them were scum. Upon clarification, he said some scum would likely be lurking. My argument is that a list of 6 players who were prodded does not necessarily mean all of them are lurking, and it excludes players who may be lurking but weren't prodded in that particular post. I also asked for tajo to prove me wrong and give me reasons why the 6 players on his list are lurkers, and I don't recall ever getting an answer there. Ironically, we're also now getting posts like this from tajo:

shameless anitprod post.

tomorrow full reread.

Now, why is that list better than a random list? Seriously?

The simple fact that calling out six people for being behind activity levels at that point is telling. When I get some more time I'll go ahead and parse activity D0, D1 before that and after and see what shakes out because I guarantee you you'll see some patterns.

I applaud you for the very professional non-answer. Lets see if I can lead you into the direction of an answer I was looking for. The 6 people tajo called out {DGB, Elmo, KMD, Plum, Rhinox and Zoraster} do you think all 6 are lurkers and why? Do you think that scum are/were trying to lurk at that point in the game? Do you think there were any other players that deserved to be in that list of 6 players?

You threw down that vote for KMD out of the gates. You threw down that vote for PZ for reasons that I still don't understand. You've played lookwarm on VV and Hoopla yet, ultimately, haven't commented for real on any of them.

I'm leaning towards agreeing with the Vasu = VI theory.

Means I think Vasu is town. Thought that was pretty clear.

Hoopla hasn't done anything to make me not want to lynch her. I'm still not sure about her play. Doesn't seem typical town or scum. I'm stumped.

Means I see the logic in the reasons for her lynch, just not sure the conclusion is she's scum. Sure, lukewarm, but I also said out of the 3 leading wagons, this would be the one I would support if forced to pick among the 3.

I don't get what you've been trying to say about the KMD wagon. I'm suspicious of his play because I've seen him more active in other games, but there was no initial reason for my vote, nor was there any reason to keep it there. If you're serious about your threat to lynch KMD, I'd rather that lynch than any of the top 3 current wagons.

Is your vote well served sitting on Zito? I can get behind fighting for your candidate but, alas, you aren't doing that.

The main reason for my vote on PZ was for trying to discredit the town knowledge gained from going through the hider claim process, by suggesting that there are hiders in the game that didn't claim, and that the hider claiming plan was scum driven in an attempt to find these hiders. PZ responded sort of:

Also, if I was a hider, I'd wait a few days to get some people to hide behind, claim, and leave behind both a good-looking corpse and some confirmed townies to work with. I think this is better hider play than claiming on the extremely unlikely chance that there happens to be a pair of them.

...My question is, where was this argument D1, and how does this tanslate to "hiders exist, but haven't claimed, and the plan to claim was scum driven"?

And for the amount of tepid fighting you've done with tajo for calling you out and me now you've still managed not to say anything important about either of our alignments.

I haven't concluded anything on Tajo yet. I was waiting for some more discussion surrounding his list (such as answers to the questions I asked you previously in this post). It is suspicious that tajo was calling out

lurkers

players who got prodded once, and then had to post with the sole purpose of avoiding a prod.

As for you spy, well I'm curious as to why your 2 votes today were both on the easy targets, both leading wagons. Everytime I've played with you as town, you're usually the one leading the wagons and coming up with reasons. You seem to think hero and I are scum though, but it seems superficial, because in the same post you decide we're both scum, you end the post with a vote on hoopla. Not getting why I'm somehow linked with hero, either.

Papa Zito: what make troll scum?

[Patrick]

Votecount

Hoopla (5) -- Papa Zito, Amished, mith, Plumegranate, Elmo
VasudeVa (3) -- populartajo, Seraphim, SpyreX
zoraster (5) -- Kmd4390, ooba, ekiM, DrippingGoofball, VasudeVa
Papa Zito (2) -- Zorblag, Rhinox
Herodotus (1) -- Hoopla
Kmd4390 (2) -- Ellibereth, Herodotus
DrippingGoofball (1) -- zoraster

Not Voting: SaintKerrigan

With 20 alive, 11 votes will be needed to lynch. Deadline: 25th of August, at 12:30 am US Central Time.

[Herodotus]

Why are Spy and Hero having a long, drawn-out conversation about meta which has nothing to do with anything?

Because he went right off the crazy train and I was trying to figure out where he was coming from BUT ALAS ...

In due time I'll get back to that, believe you me.

We can multitask. Do you have questions?

Also, how do you feel about Zoraster 508 and 516?

The more I see, the more I agree with the Hero/KMD scumteam theory.

/me breathes a sigh of RELIEF THAT YOU'RE NOT VOTING MY SCUMBUDDY, and considers you a bit more suspicious due to your parked vote.
Mix that with the worst chainsaw defense ever and bake with your low content, and I'd be willing to lynch Amished.

I wish we weren't pushing toward the deadline, but it's in 36 hours. Saintkerrigan needs to vote.
Zoraster, given that DGB won't be lynched today, will you be moving your vote, or not?

[Herodotus]

What is the Law of Averages that everyone is talking about?

It's another name for the Gambler's Fallacy. In this context, it means "Zorblag has been town 9 times in a row in other games, so he must be scum here to balance that."

[SpyreX]

Spy...

The misrep is that you are arguing that I'm trying to discredit tajo's list by comparing it to a list of 6 random names.

I don't know if you meant this as a joke or serious, but you realize that mathematically, if you pick any random 6 people in a 20 player game in which there are 4 scum, there is an 80% chance that at least 1 of those 6 players are scum.

Unless you feel being prodded is a scum tell, you might as well have picked 6 names at random

.

I applaud you for the very professional non-answer. Lets see if I can lead you into the direction of an answer I was looking for. The 6 people tajo called out {DGB, Elmo, KMD, Plum, Rhinox and Zoraster} do you think all 6 are lurkers and why? Do you think that scum are/were trying to lurk at that point in the game? Do you think there were any other players that deserved to be in that list of 6 players?

All 6? No. DGB is off the charts but that happened after the fact. At that point in time? Yes. The amount of actual d1 content from that group has been minimal.

Means I think Vasu is town. Thought that was pretty clear.

I'm leaning towards agreeing with the Vasu = VI theory.

I liked VasudeVa during D0, but lately seems to be voting anywhere a wagon might start. Especially the KMD and Hoopla votes. I'm not against voting jumping, but there needs to be actual reasons for the votes, and you can't just forget about your previous votes after you change. All seems not very genuine.

Welll that sure looks like a pair of "well maaaybe" stances. On both sides of the fence even!

I haven't concluded anything on Tajo yet. I was waiting for some more discussion surrounding his list (such as answers to the questions I asked you previously in this post). It is suspicious that tajo was calling out lurkers players who got prodded once, and then had to post with the sole purpose of avoiding a prod.

As for you spy, well I'm curious as to why your 2 votes today were both on the easy targets, both leading wagons. Everytime I've played with you as town, you're usually the one leading the wagons and coming up with reasons. You seem to think hero and I are scum though, but it seems superficial, because in the same post you decide we're both scum, you end the post with a vote on hoopla. Not getting why I'm somehow linked with hero, either.

Again unwilling to call anyone scum. Nicely played.

And yes I have only voted for easy wagons. No sir did I not start any wagons or provide any cases on anyone whom I still think are scum BUT ALAS can't get any traction on and haven't made that clear.

True story.

[SpyreX]

We can multitask. Do you have questions?

Also, how do you feel about Zoraster 508 and 516?

Hrmmm. Somehow I missed that entirely.

GOD TWO OF THIS DOES NOT MAKE A CAKE.

Good lord he even replied to tajo replying to Rhinox. My eeeeyees.

I can't believe both would be scum though.

On the plus side this does make me feel a bit better about you Hero. A bit.

[DrippingGoofball]

SpyreX, Rhinox. The town-on-town catfights are a distraction. Stop hissing and share your litter box.

[DrippingGoofball]

In other news, Herodotus has now claimed scum twice. I do not believe that townies make jokes about being scum, unless they're elvis_knits. It's something you do as scum to release the stress of being caught. And the stress of being caught bus'ing.

I suppose I could vote KMD; but I'm more confident in the bus driver being scum, than the guy being squished into the asphalt.

unvote, vote: Herodotus

[Herodotus]

Given your page 26 idea of me distancing from KMD, and Vas apparently going along with it, that seemed the best way to get a KMD wagon into contention at this late stage.
Was your reasoning for thinking I'm scum only that I was fos'ing a buddy and voting a townie?
Doesn't that argument depend on assuming KMD's alignment to be scum?
Is the line "I suppose I could vote KMD; but..." distancing from a buddy while voting a townie?

[mith]

We are 30 something hours away from deadline, and the leading wagon (scummy scum scum Hoopla) has 5 votes. This is rather pathetic.

SaintKerrigan: You aren't voting. Get on it.

zoraster: DrippingGoofball is not going to be lynched today. We are not ignoring that she is in the game (and I continue to think she has a higher than average chance of being scum) nor that she made a gambit that was either ill-conceived or anti-town, but your vote is being wasted.

Troll, Rhinox: I agree that Papa Zito's views on the hider situation are off. I don't currently think he's scum. I believe others have expressed similar views, and no one seems interested in adding their vote to yours. Your votes are being wasted.

Ellibereth, Herodotus, DrippingGoofball: Unless the player you are voting for receives another couple votes in the very near future, your votes are being wasted. Herodotus brings up a couple of good points on Kmd (though I still lean town there), and I am somewhat suspicious of Herodotus himself (mostly by connection to Hoopla; and I don't like 689 at all); but it doesn't appear either wagon is going anywhere today.

(I could lump Hoopla in there, but given her complete lack of participation, and the whole her-being-scum-thing, I'm not terribly concerned about her vote being wasted.)

Everyone else: You should be voting for Hoopla. Get on it.

[Seraphim]

I guess VV can wait until tomorrow.

Unvote
Vote: Hoopla

[Seraphim]

For more clarification, the reasoning for changing my vote is that the VV wagon lost steam and it's entirely possible that he's just stupid as opposed to scummy like I'm initially postulated. That doesn't mean I'm abandoning the idea of him as scum, I'm merely temporarily moving my vote to help the most likely wagon along. If we had more time, I would not be doing this.

[Herodotus]

I could see several people voting for KMD who currently are not.
DGB, Vasudeva, Spyrex, Elmo, Rhinox, and Plumegranite have all talked about it with varying amounts of consideration (I'll grant that getting DGB on a wagon I support, and Spyrex on a wagon Rhinox supports, could be a challenge.) Hoopla, seriously or not, named him as a suspect. Amished is trying to look like he might suspect KMD.
ekiM, ooba, Tajo, SaintK, Seraphim, Zoraster, and Zorblag are all potential KMD voters; I see only you and PZ as definte no's. I don't consider this wagon impossible, or my vote wasted.

@Seraphim: you had Zoraster as worse than Hoopla. When you switched from Vas, why did you skip Zor and vote Hoopla?

[Herodotus]

For the record, my list of "maybe" 's is based on skimming an ISO of each of those players. Most haven't mentioned him recently, none defended him as far as I could see. mith and PZ were excluded because I don't believe they would remove themselves from Hoopla's wagon.

[DrippingGoofball]

Ellibereth, Herodotus, DrippingGoofball: Unless the player you are voting for receives another couple votes in the very near future, your votes are being wasted....

Blech.

Hoopla's making herself scarce is scum giving up.

The other scumbags will have to wait in line for their turns.

unvote, vote: Hoopla

[Seraphim]

@Seraphim: you had Zoraster as worse than Hoopla. When you switched from Vas, why did you skip Zor and vote Hoopla?

I changed my mind and the zoraster wagon felt a little iffy.

[Papa Zito]

mith's taking charge. I like that.

PZ's not moving from the Hoopla wagon no unless shenanigans occur.

Papa Zito: what make troll scum?

Rhinox: Troll want Hider claims! PZ think Hider claims BAD. Troll then ignore all of game except PZ! Many other players scummier than PZ but Troll no pay attention to them! Troll tunneling anti-town!

PZ think these things make Troll possible scum! But Hoopla still better candidate! Vuvuzela also better candidate! For now PZ want Hoopla lynch!

[Rhinox]

UNVOTE: PZ

VOTE: hoopla

For game progression, best choice out of limited options.

[populartajo]

Gosh, this guy Vasudeva is so scum.

Vote: zoraster
Also, Hoopla's cake-y avi looks awesome with THC. Fooled me for around 3 seconds.

First he hopes in the zoraster wagon, once DGB attacks him for his tunneling case. Then he adds a joke reason to a semiserious vote.

Spyrex is town for multiple posts.

Is Zoraster always this close minded? If he, then he is also town.

Im thinking Rhinox town. Meta reasoning here.

I also dislike Mrs. Plum for voting ooba instead of other people.

Oh joy, Vasudeva hops again in 409 against ooba for a WEAK reason. SCUM.

Mmmm, I dont like mith's top 4 (DGB, Hoopz, ooba and MME), pretty much for what zoraster said in his next post 413.

Amished thinks he know why I think he is scum. But I have no idea why I think he is scum, other than gut, argg, this answer is bugging me. Amished town, please tell me why should I think you are scum.

Im getting a scummy read of Mike. I dont remember posting him a lot of one lines.

Vasudeva hops again against KMD. And Im not buying the VI Ill lynch whatever moves attitude. I know VV is capable of thinking.

I like hero with his stances in 445.

Tajo, why do you know about my meta/asking about it? I have never played with you before.

Ive read the following games where you were town:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 72&start=0
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 55&t=13633

I have no idea why you are refusing to post your playstyle in a paragraph. I know you can think, you were a feared townie in the Beatles game. You were very easy to read as town in Deathnote's game. This game, you are hoping wagons like crazy and providing really bad arguments to support your views.

I also hate wallotexts, did I mention that?=

I think Ive realized why I think Amished is scum... I also dont remember him posting a lot of one liners and a lot of questions. Id expect Amished town to have some stances by page 21.

If you were hunting scum you'd be asking him his opinion of OTHER PLAYERS, something he's avoiding to do.

I really want to understand his motivations for voting you. Dont worry, dear, imma town. His answer is good enough and pretty much to what spytown is thinking in some of his posts in page 21, high in moonbeams but believes in what he is doing.

I haven't played with (un)populartajo before,nor have I ever talked to him outside of games yet he claims to have a 'bad feeling' about a 'Town meta' of mine. If that's not suspicious, I don't know what is. Also, he dodges that question and proceeds to wagon on me.

So with all the votes you spit in RVS, why in HELL didnt you vote ME?

Ok, page 24 freaking tired now, Seraph is also prob town. Scum by now: Vasudeva, Amished and Mike. Confirming my VOTE: VASUDEVA.